Our entire offensive line is OLD,(merged)

[KNGwithOUTaCrwN]

true that. but i think we will be fine for the next year or two

[[[ghost]]]

Depth? When do you plan on drafting these guys replacements? They take a year to develope. You can't count on guys like Thomas Kendal and Jansen for much longer.

When we draft for depth is when i plan on drafting their replacement. While we groom them under the tutledge of Kendall and Jansen.

[TheLongshot]

I think Zorn, as a former QB, is acutely aware of this. Thats why I'm not worried - assuming he can keep Vinny from shouting him down.

Why would Vinny shout him down? Considering that Vinny pretty much put together this line (with the exception of Jansen), it is obvious that he isn't oblivious to those kind of needs.

I do think people here overrate the age issue. Football players don't come with an expiration date. They don't all of a sudden go bad when they turn 30. Mileage may vary depending on the player. For example, no one is worried that Mike Sellars is 34, because he still plays at a high level.

That's true for most of our offensive line. The main concern isn't dropping ability levels, but injury. Course, that's why you have a medical staff that can evaluate a player and see if an injury is going to be a chronic problem.

I don't argue that thinking about drafting replacements is in order. I'm pretty much assuming that a high pick will be used on an O-Lineman. But, this is not a desperate situation here. For next year, we will be fine with the starters that we got.

Jason

[Enter Apotheosis]

I keep hearing they are great "When healthy". Thats all fine and well but they have been getting banged up a lot lately. A big part of that is because of age. The injuries are going to come more often as they get even older. Not one guy is under 30 years of age. You can't wait until the last minute to start replacing these guys or it will all hit you at once. Teams that win every year have guys ready to step right in. We dont have that right now.

By offensive line standards, they really aren't all that old. Offensive linemen rarely hit their peak before 30 and can usually play at a high level until they hit the 34-36 range. Having said that, we do still need young talent on the oline for both short-term depth and long term development. Kendall is nearing the end, Samuels and Rabach occasionally get banged up, Thomas has had two freak injuries in three seasons, and Jon Jansen is simply unreliable at this point in time.

I like Stephon Heyer... so I'd consider drafting a guard with starting potential to be a high priority for us. Depending on how the rest of the draft goes, I'd also like us to pick up a tackle and perhaps another guard in the later rounds.

[AAARedskin]

Branden Albert is the only O-lineman worth taking in the 1st round of the draft at the 21 spot. I have NO PROBLEM with the Skins taking him IF players like WRs Limas Seed and Malcolm Kelly are gone, and if DEs like Derrick Harvey and Phillip Merling are also gone...

[SuperSmartQb#8]

Just like Stephon Heyer took a whole year to develop?? Wait......

Considering that he was an undrafted free agent, Heyer did well. But having to help him out with Cooley or one of the running definitely had a negative impact on our offense. He is capable of filling in for a game or two, but he's not ready for anything more than that at this point.

[rwn]

i did not want to make a thread and put it in around the nfl here is something from PFT

BEARS, 49ERS TO HAVE TAMPERING HEARING

Jay Glazer of Fox Sports reports that an NFL hearing scheduled for Monday in New York is set to determine whether the 49ers tampered with Bears linebacker Lance Briggs.

Glazer cites unnamed league sources saying the Bears believe the 49ers had impermissible contact with either Briggs or his agent, Drew Rosenhaus, during the 2007 NFL season. The Bears and 49ers were close to working out a trade involving Briggs, but the trade fell through at the last minute. Briggs ultimately re-signed with the Bears this month.

Also another PFT just in

HALL DENIES THAT TRADE IS CLOSE

Posted by Mike Florio on March 15, 2008, 11:09 p.m.

Amid reports that the Atlanta Falcons are close to trading cornerback DeAngelo Hall to the Oakland Raiders, Hall respectfully disagrees — and identifies the other teams at are or were in the hunt for services.

“As of right now, we’re still at the same stages that I was at with every other team,” Hall said, according to the Atlanta Journal-Constitution. “New York, Washington, Dallas, and Jacksonville. Nothing has been OK’d on my end.

[DirtySkin21]

i did not want to make a thread and put it in around the nfl here is something from PFT

BEARS, 49ERS TO HAVE TAMPERING HEARING

Jay Glazer of Fox Sports reports that an NFL hearing scheduled for Monday in New York is set to determine whether the 49ers tampered with Bears linebacker Lance Briggs.

Glazer cites unnamed league sources saying the Bears believe the 49ers had impermissible contact with either Briggs or his agent, Drew Rosenhaus, during the 2007 NFL season. The Bears and 49ers were close to working out a trade involving Briggs, but the trade fell through at the last minute. Briggs ultimately re-signed with the Bears this month.

yeah, i made a thread about this in the other section.. it was a few weeks ago though.

[Wyvern]

It's time to start re-stocking our O-line. Even most of our backups are long in the tooth or injury-prone (Wade comes to mind here.)

LG:

Think about it, we've got 1-2 years (maybe) with Kendall, contract-wise and knees-wise.

RT

:

Jansen has to be a question-mark now. So, is it Heyer to the rescue?

LT and RG:

I'm assuming

that Thomas and Samuels stay injury-free. However, if they go down, I suppose we'll have to rely on stalwarts like Heyer and Fabini to man their positions. (Unless Heyer is already covering for Jansen.)

C:

However, if Rabach were to get injured -- who do we have? Pucillo? Or the all-purpose Lorenzo Alexander?

We shouldn't wait much longer to upgrade our pool of O-line talent. Let's give Bugel some really good material to work with -- as he develops his last batch of Redskins linemen.

[DirtySkin21]

^ - I know w esent Fabini an offer, but did he accept? we can't even really rely on him to be depth yet.. Though he is good depth for us.

[Equinoox]

Our line is fine. Yes, they are getting old but early 30's is not time to retire for an OL. This year in the pro-bowl 4 OL were 30+, 2 were 29yrs old, 1 was 26yrs old, and one was 25yrs old. If I was to research earlier pro bowls; we would probably see a trend of pro bowl OL being around 30. What we need is depth on our OL. We have capable starters now. We need to focus on a skill position with our first pick. I would like a WR in the first. I think WR is where we are the weakest. But, then again if I knew what we needed, I probably would be Washington Redskins' Executive Vice President.

[Boy2Der]

Heyer got man handled in his last game i wouldn't call him a bonafied starter yet.

[Voice_of_Reason]

I keep hearing they are great "When healthy". Thats all fine and well but they have been getting banged up a lot lately. A big part of that is because of age. The injuries are going to come more often as they get even older. Not one guy is under 30 years of age. You can't wait until the last minute to start replacing these guys or it will all hit you at once. Teams that win every year have guys ready to step right in. We dont have that right now.

I'll give you Randy Thomas' injury might be due to age, but Jansen's was not. He got completely rolled up on and his leg went in a way it wasn't designed to go in. He could have been 22 or 32 and the same thing would have happened.

btw, Heyer will be ok. Vinny keeps saying he needs to work on his lower body stegnth to improve in the run game.

For those folks who say it takes a year to groom, Samuels and Jansen were first year starters. I don't know about the others, they weren't on the Skins. A first/second round pick would be expected to start.

More pressing than tackle (because of Heyer's pressence) is Gaurd. I'm sure they want a stud to take over from Kendell in the next couple of years.

[Tarhog]

Why would Vinny shout him down? Considering that Vinny pretty much put together this line (with the exception of Jansen), it is obvious that he isn't oblivious to those kind of needs.

I do think people here overrate the age issue. Football players don't come with an expiration date. They don't all of a sudden go bad when they turn 30. Mileage may vary depending on the player. For example, no one is worried that Mike Sellars is 34, because he still plays at a high level.

That's true for most of our offensive line. The main concern isn't dropping ability levels, but injury. Course, that's why you have a medical staff that can evaluate a player and see if an injury is going to be a chronic problem.

I don't argue that thinking about drafting replacements is in order. I'm pretty much assuming that a high pick will be used on an O-Lineman. But, this is not a desperate situation here. For next year, we will be fine with the starters that we got.

Jason

Its not a question of 'why would Vinny?', its a fact that Cerrato has Snyder's ear. Given his promotion, thats more than just a fact. That means that ultimately its Cerrato who decides who we draft. Period. Its not debatable. I never said he was 'oblivious' - so thats your word, not mine. As for age - I agree and disagree. Some players seem to be ageless, others, it matters. Jansen's clearly injury-prone, and we need to be looking for a successor. The 'Pro Bowl' argument is pointless, as fans repeatedly ignore the truth about players, and buy into the hype/reputation.

And again, did I use the word 'desperate'? No. Still - we have historically given short shrift to the lines. And its cost us late in the season, again and again.

Btw, Sellars is overrated in the extreme. He's never lived up to his own self-promotion. He's a physical specimen who rarely does on the field what he talks about doing off it. Age has nothing to do with it.

[TheLongshot]

Its not a question of 'why would Vinny?', its a fact that Cerrato has Snyder's ear. Given his promotion, thats more than just a fact. That means that ultimately its Cerrato who decides who we draft. Period. Its not debatable. I never said he was 'oblivious' - so thats your word, not mine.

So, what are you suggesting? That Vinny is Snyder's puppet? Certainly this offseason so far doesn't seem to reflect that, at least from the standard perception of Snyder in general. In any case, Vinny has had no problem drafting OL during his time here.

As for age - I agree and disagree. Some players seem to be ageless, others, it matters. Jansen's clearly injury-prone, and we need to be looking for a successor. The 'Pro Bowl' argument is pointless, as fans repeatedly ignore the truth about players, and buy into the hype/reputation.

You are right that there is some concern about Jansen, but having a veteran like Wade on the roster and a young man with potential like Heyer, I'm not too worried about the current state of and the future of the position.

I assume since you mentioned "Pro Bowl", you are talking about Samuels. I think he is mostly up to the hype. Yes, the best sometimes get the best of him, but he almost never gets help, particularly with the injuries.

And again, did I use the word 'desperate'? No. Still - we have historically given short shrift to the lines. And its cost us late in the season, again and again.

No, it was more a comment to the OP, but to speak to your comment, the depth at OL has improved every year. Back in '05, once we had more than one injury, we were pretty much dead. Last year, we had three OL knocked out with injuries, yet we were able to keep things going. Yes, there was a dropoff when the backups came in, but guess what: that's why they are backups.

Anyways, it isn't the OL that ultimately cost us last season, but mistakes on both sides of the ball.

Jason

[Tarhog]

So, what are you suggesting? That Vinny is Snyder's puppet?

I'm not 'suggesting' anything. I said what I said, that traditionally, at least since 'Gibbs I', we haven't paid as much attention to the lines as we should have. I never said anything about Cerrato being a puppet. I think Vinny has taken a lot of heat that truthfully, in the past, he hasn't deserved. I'm simply pointing out that we have typically focused on the 'sexier' positions, and not so much at the bread and butter frontline areas the lines represent.

This isn't the first time I've seen you put words into people's mouths in order to counter them. Why is that. Jason?

John

[TheLongshot]

I'm not 'suggesting' anything. I said what I said, that traditionally, at least since 'Gibbs I', we haven't paid as much attention to the lines as we should have. I never said anything about Cerrato being a puppet. I think Vinny has taken a lot of heat that truthfully, in the past, he hasn't deserved. I'm simply pointing out that we have typically focused on the 'sexier' positions, and not so much at the bread and butter frontline areas the lines represent.

This isn't the first time I've seen you put words into people's mouths in order to counter them. Why is that. Jason?

I wasn't putting any words in anyone's mouth. I wanted clarification on your Snyder remark, which you still haven't given me with this comment. I can't help it when you can't make yourself clear.

The reason why there hasn't been more attention to the OL is because the need hasn't been there. It is a position that we have been really solid at across the line. Until last year, there was no reason to spend a first day pick on an OL, since you expect a guy picked that high to start in the near term. Considering the level of play, spending that much for an OL didn't make much sense, especially when there were other positions of greater need.

Under Gibbs, we have drafted three OL, signed one as a FA, traded for one, and have brought in numerous RFA and castoffs from other teams. Not a bad effort to try to find depth. Personally, I think if we had a 2nd or 3rd last year we probably would have drafted an OL. Meanwhile, Buges has always been happy with what he got. So, if you want to put some responsibility on someone, it probably should be him.

One thing I haven't talked about is the tradeoff between finding a good backup and having young, developmental prospects. That's always a tough choice teams need to deal with, because the young guy might not be ready yet to go in at a moment's notice. Even with the practice squad, it makes it tough to develop those late round picks.

Jason

[Tarhog]

I wasn't putting any words in anyone's mouth. I wanted clarification on your Snyder remark, which you still haven't given me with this comment. I can't help it when you can't make yourself clear.

I didn't make a 'Snyder remark' Jason. I said, accurately, that whatever personnel decisions were made, ultimately, Cerrato would have the final call.

Are you arguing that?

What you 'can't help' is distorting people's arguments, then countering statements no one has actually made Just don't try it with me - as I am not going to let it fly.

If you want to argue something I've actually said, have at it. Otherwise....

[Spear]

30 is the new 29.

[corrupt3d]

I personally think our current Oline has one more year before we need to start replacing people. That doesnt mean we dont draft now in order to groom young starters.

I think the order should be as follows:

Kendall (let him play out his contract)

Jansen (I love this guy, but he gets banged up too much, would not mind him back as a coach)

Thomas (is getting up their in age, but has some years left)

-after some time-

Rabach (not needed yet)

-after more time-

Samuels (is young, is solid, no need for replacement soon)

[COWBOY-KILLA-]

Do we need to draft a couple Olineman.....Yes!.

[bedlamVR]

I disagree than Samuels made the probowl on hype . He played exceptionally well as he has done throughout his career (sans Spurrier years) and a portion of the fans hate him for it . Go to a cowboys board and suggest Flo is pass his prime and you will get shot down and rightly so . When a player is playing well we should praise them not kick them.

Anyway I think because you have such solid players in Jansen, Samuels, Thomas and Rabach there has not been a huge need to change address the line . The offensive line is more about chemistry and experience rather than youthful athleticism .

I would also argue that Jansen is injury prone . He hasn't quite been the player he was early in his career but early he was more of a plough run blocking RT brought in for the power running game . In the past few years he has been given the responsibility of a LT protecting his QBs (Brunell) blind side so he has had to improve drastically his pass protection .

The injuries he has had could have happened to anyone at any time playing football . From 1999 to 2003 the guy didn't miss a down . The ACL in 2004 was "one of those things" and he was 28 when that happened so it is not like it was an age thing . In 2005 he played the entire season at 29 with broken thumbs, but didn't miss significant game time (Portis ran for a team record yardage behind that line) in 2006 he missed 1 game (NO) but Betts ran for a career high and the OLine helped him score a significant pay rise . in 2007 the injury as has been pointed out could have happened has he been 22 or 42 . The question is, will he be able to come back and be 100% healthy after that . I know a dislocated ankle makes the joint weak, but if you protect the area it is not a chronic condition . And thats the point . Despite Jansen having these major injuries they are not the death knoll type injuries of OL typically back, knee or shoulder problems are chronic and keep causing issues .

That being said I think we will address the line this year and I am on the Brandon Albert band wagon because while the line is fine now it will not be 3 years down the line (Kendell was a one-two year stop gap solution imo), OL are also prohibitively expensive in FA . I would be disappointed if we don't use a pick in the first three rounds on an OG but I don't expect the draft to be solely about the lines .

I would also think about next year drafting another blue chipper to give depth behind Thomas/Rabach and then address the tackles in subsequent years . LT is something i think you invest a great deal interms ot time and investment so while you have a pro bowl LT you don't invest in his replacement until you have to .

[Burgold]

Nice post Belam.

I'm actually more worried about guard because all of last year we got no push up the middle whatsoever. We couldn't convert 3rd and ones or 4th and ones. Will the return of Thomas that make much of a difference?

Jansen's play has been in decline and he has gotten banged up a lot.

Thomas has been had two freak, but major injuries that knocked him out of 2 of the last three seasons.

Kendall's got arthritic knees and seemed okay, but not brilliant.

Rabach is solid

Samuels is good

All are over thirty. All have gone under the knife too many times. I don't have faith that this line will hold up. I'm not even sure how great they will be as a unit right now. How well does Jansen come back? How many games can Kendall or Thomas play?

We need at least two new guys who have starter potential, not depth potential on this team. A guard and probably a guard/tackle.

[Commander Adama]

Harping on the age of the Offensive Line has gotten old. Keep saying the same things over and over again. Just because you rewrite the sentiments that were expressed previously, does not mean it is something new.

[Rudechain]

Yea sure the line's getting old but the sky aint' falling here. There are a lot of linemen that will be available and the team is probably looking at some of them.