The upcoming Changes on Defense (Manusky Hired) Tons of links

[s0crates]

I clicked the thread hoping to see information on draft and FA prospects at safety and MLB, as I think those are the positions that need to change to improve the defense, but it appears the OP has gone with the assumption that the coordinator is the problem.

[GhostofAlvinWalton]

15 hours ago, goskins10 said:

Here is what Bowles Ds have done. He gets some improvement the first year then drops to worse than they were the year after.

AZ Def over the last 6 yrs:

2011 - 18th

2012 - 12th

2013 - 6th - Bowles

2014 - 24th - Bowles

2015 - 5th

2016 - 1st

So Bowles took the 12th ranked D and took them to 6th then 24th!

 

Let's look at the Jets D the last 4 yrs:

2013 - 11th

2014 - 6th

2015 - 4th - Bowles

2016 - 17th - Bowles - Not looking like it will improve but I guess it could.

 

Let's remember that in 2014 Carson Palmer played 6 games and I distinctly remember the ARZ DEF keeping them in games despite no passing game (or offense for that matter).  Also, Tyrann Mathieu only started 6 games.  Dispite that...ARZ DEF only gave up 18 p/g after Palmer went down.  2015...Palmer and Mathieu play the whole year at a Pro bowl level.

 

I'd say 2014 is a positve for Bolwes.

 

13 hours ago, goskins10 said:

 

He was the DC in AZ. He took over a 12th ranked D, they went to 6th and then 24th under him. After he left it went 5th.

 

I agree you can't really judge him at the Jets in terms of Off - and probably STs since he is supposed to be a Defensive guy. But you can certainly judge his D. That's why you promote someone from coordinator. You expect them to put their system in place for the side of the ball they were coordinator. He took over a good D loaded with talent - and the draft pick that many in here say we should have taken, and they went form 6th to 4th to 17th and falling . Looks like a trend to me.

 

Who knows he may be  good coordinator. But his track record says otherwise.

 

 

Have you seen the turnover numbers for the Jets this year? They are -19...the Browns are only -10.  I see a similar pattern too....****ty Qb/OFF play effecting his DEF.  Numbers can tell you all kids of different things...don't be afraid to dig a little.

[goskins10]

45 minutes ago, GhostofAlvinWalton said:

 

Let's remember that in 2014 Carson Palmer played 6 games and I distinctly remember the ARZ DEF keeping them in games despite no passing game (or offense for that matter).  Also, Tyrann Mathieu only started 6 games.  Dispite that...ARZ DEF only gave up 18 p/g after Palmer went down.  2015...Palmer and Mathieu play the whole year at a Pro bowl level.

 

I'd say 2014 is a positve for Bolwes.

 

 

Have you seen the turnover numbers for the Jets this year? They are -19...the Browns are only -10.  I see a similar pattern too....****ty Qb/OFF play effecting his DEF.  Numbers can tell you all kids of different things...don't be afraid to dig a little.

 

I am very well aware of the issues with AZ. I have stated before they are my 2nd favorite team. But aren't all those just excuses? I mean when anyone suggests there are other things impacting the poor Defensive play - like a lack of talent - it's thrown away as excuses. Why is it people can find some kind of rationalization to support their guy but hold a tough line \for someone they don't like.

 

The fact is that AZ team suffered more from injuries because they had more talent to suffer from. We lost 2 more DBs Monday and Ryan Kerrigan. We have now for the second year in a row have the most starting DBs in the NFL. But I know, there is plenty of talent for Barry and injuries are just excuses for him.

 

Don't be afraid to be objective and provide a fair evaluation.

[GhostofAlvinWalton]

32 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

 

I am very well aware of the issues with AZ. I have stated before they are my 2nd favorite team. But aren't all those just excuses? I mean when anyone suggests there are other things impacting the poor Defensive play - like a lack of talent - it's thrown away as excuses. Why is it people can find some kind of rationalization to support their guy but hold a tough line \for someone they don't like.

 

The fact is that AZ team suffered more from injuries because they had more talent to suffer from. We lost 2 more DBs Monday and Ryan Kerrigan. We have now for the second year in a row have the most starting DBs in the NFL. But I know, there is plenty of talent for Barry and injuries are just excuses for him.

 

Don't be afraid to be objective and provide a fair evaluation.

 

If you are aware of the "issues" then why not mention them?   Wouldn't fit your narrative?  Or, if injures are no excuse then why not post Barry's stellar "track record" next to Bowles, Ryan, Bradley, etc...?

 

And Bowles is my guy now?  Other than thinking he'd be a decent replacement for Barry (if they even get rid of him) how do you come to that conclusion? Because I showed that there may have been other factors related to your stats?

 

If you can find one post where I have said this team has plenty of talent on DEF and said the injuries were just excuses for Barry...I'll kiss your ass.  I was one, of only a couple people, on this site saying the ILBs and Safteies were the problem with the run DEF last season (ya know, when everybody else was saying Compton was a diamond in the rough and it was the DLs fault). That is a weak argument...most (if not everybody) has stated that this DEF is lacking in talent (which is not Barry's fault). I'm guessing the people that don't want Barry here think that he hasn't even done a very good job with what he does have and they don't have faith that he will get the most out of better talent....you know...because of HIS track record...which makes Bowles look like Dick LeBeau.  

 

Please explain where I haven't giving a "fair evaluation"...or even given a evaluation at all. 

 

You seems to be responding to the thoughts/comments of others (which you have exaggerated imo) in your response to me.  I don't appreciate it...get your **** together please.
 

[goskins10]

 

35 minutes ago, GhostofAlvinWalton said:

 

If you are aware of the "issues" then why not mention them?  

 

Edit

 

It's clear we are not communicating well here. I thought we were having a conversation and you took a lot of it personal. Wasn't entirely the intent but whatever. I will say when you decided to give direction - "don't be afraid to dig" - "get your **** together", not typically going to respond well to that. So I was probably more aggressive than I meant to and was about to do the same when I decided to go a different direction. May just be your writing style and not your intent. If so, fair enough.

 

If you can leave that stuff out and just have a discussion on it's own merits, we could probably have a decent conversation. Sounds like we are not even that far apart. Up to you.

 

I will try to get it back on track - I would not say most have agreed there is a lack of talent. Some have begrudgingly agreed but then are quick to say Barry is making it worse. Hard to make that statement for me. I am not even a big fan of Barry's. I just know it's really hard to judge him fairly when the entire middle of the D is weak - ILB and S being the worst. The dline is actually playing better than people give them credit for. But without that playmaker at either S of ILB, they will have troubles. When you look at some of the more detailed breakdowns of his D, he is putting guys in the right position - they just don't have the ability - or for a few of them, the heart - needed to make the play. He is not perfect by any means. But all people make mistakes. Not every defensive call is going to work out.

 

More to our conversation - to me there is not enough solid data on Bowles to say he would do a good job. The last two places he has been, the D has started well and gotten worse. There are mitigating circumstances - but you can't assume he is good any more than you can assume he is not good. Again, just not enough to say one way or the other. He maybe be a great replacement. But to me, most of the intrigue is because he is an Ex-Redskin - kind of like when everyone wanted Russ Grimm. Great guy but not a great coach.

 

I am and have been in the camp that:

1. Do not fire Barry before the need to the season. Do not like the dysfunction it shows - yet again! Also, even though we need help now, we could still make the POs. Not good to make that change this late in the season.

2. If the FO keeps him - they have more info than us so I will be OK with it.

3. If the FO fires him - same as #2 - but instead will support whoever new comes in.

[drtdrums]

5 hours ago, s0crates said:

I clicked the thread hoping to see information on draft and FA prospects at safety and MLB, as I think those are the positions that need to change to improve the defense, but it appears the OP has gone with the assumption that the coordinator is the problem.

 

The man is at least partially responsible for the 0-16 Lions and (as of two weeks ago, not sure if it changed) two of the worst 3rd-and-long defenses in history (San Diego, not remembering the year, and our 2016 Redskins). 

 

The personnel is crap at some positions. Sure. But we have a legit lockdown corner and guys like Kerrigan that are better than average. There are teams doing more with less. I can't make the argument that Barry isn't the problem any more. 

[Burgold]

6 hours ago, s0crates said:

I clicked the thread hoping to see information on draft and FA prospects at safety and MLB, as I think those are the positions that need to change to improve the defense, but it appears the OP has gone with the assumption that the coordinator is the problem.

I think the coordinator is somewhere between 40-60% of the problem. On game days, 50 - 75% of the problem.

[AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy]

1 hour ago, GhostofAlvinWalton said:

I'm guessing the people that don't want Barry here think that he hasn't even done a very good job with what he does have and they don't have faith that he will get the most out of better talent....you know...because of HIS track record...which makes Bowles look like Dick LeBeau.  

Thank you GAW for perfectly summing up my feelings.   

 

No matter what we do in the offseason, I hope we can figure out a way to make enough plays on that side of the ball to get it done these last two weeks.  

[bobandweave]

7 hours ago, s0crates said:

I clicked the thread hoping to see information on draft and FA prospects at safety and MLB, as I think those are the positions that need to change to improve the defense, but it appears the OP has gone with the assumption that the coordinator is the problem.

 

Not an assumption to me only an assumption after four years of subpar performances that it will ever work with that coach.

 

On what basis should we question that when the results aren't there to support it?  and the only repeated argument applies to anyone. Better players would equal better coaching from any other coach too.

 

What I want in a coach is the ability to take average players and make them winners. Winning with with less talent makes building a roster easier. I don't want to be saddled with a coach who needs good players to win. that handicaps you and gets you out coached 

[skinzplay]

Quoting from a Post article from two weeks ago: "But the more Barry talks, the more he reveals simple-minded strategy that makes you doubt he’s the sophisticated guru needed to rebuild this defense. And the more his unit fails to assist one of the league’s best offenses, the clearer it becomes that the defense could stunt franchise’s growth............ Regardless of how the season ends, the defense must undergo significant change. Does that include leadership? This should be Barry’s last chance to give a reasonable answer."

 

Link to the article is here: https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/redskins/joe-barry-must-prove-he-should-remain-redskins-defensive-coordinator/2016/12/09/d32c9f7c-be47-11e6-94ac-3d324840106c_story.html?utm_term=.ae53d744e32a

[skins island connection]

 Part of a coaching job is to lie, in order to increase a player's performance.

Gibbs put together a bunch of rejects from other teams and turned them into not only Superbowl winners, but multi-year Pro Bowlers [ back when pro bowl voting actually meant something ] and in some cases household names.

 

Teaching fundamentals and drilling it into their heads while telling them they're getting better only made them strive to work harder and play smarter; players are an extension of their coaches. I'd say most of that extension is attitude, and we've all seen and heard players talking about what their coach said and how it worked out for them.

 

I agree, there are quite a few players on defense especially, who wouldn't cut it on another team, but we have them. Maybe some of these players just don't get it, maybe they're not comfortable or used to the position they play, maybe they don't like or agree with the overall scheme; there can be multiple issues with players.

 

But when it comes to Barry, its a mirror image of Haslett, except Haslett seemed to rise to the occasion against Dallas. There's nothing that says Barry will have a better defense with better players; that would mean the talent is already there [ taught by someone else ] and the player is just replacing another player. But, Barry's hiring made as much sense as Haslett's did; neither had anything to write home about, yet were hired to be DC here, and with Haslett's hiring came the 3-4 defense, which he wasn't even on board with operating.

 

when you look back, when Mike Shanahan was hired here, he wanted the 3-4, and its been a colossal failure ever since.

[SkinsRx]

On 12/20/2016 at 1:23 PM, SemperFi Skins said:

Vic Fangio/Rex Ryan.... No to everyone else.

 

Prefer Fangio, even if he turned us down.... He turned the 32nd ranked Bears defense to 7th overall in one offseason and used to run a hell of a ship in San Fran.

 

I'd be ecstatic if Fangio became available again and this time GMSM was able to convince Gruden to bring him on board.  Who knows the real reason why Fangio chose the Bears over the Skins two years ago?  It's think it's pretty unlikely that money was the issue since Snyder likes to outbid everyone.  There were reports that the determining factor was that the Skins wanted to keep Raheem Morris as secondary coach, but Fangio wanted to bring his own secondary coach with him (Ed Donatell).  Of course this rumor was never confirmed by anyone, but I kinda feel like there was some truth to it.  #1) because it totally sounds like the type of decision the Skins would make (esp. if GMSM had no say in the decision) and #2) the Tampa Bay connection (Gruden/Morris/Allen).  Not that any of this matters anymore, but if Fangio leaves Chicago, we have to get him.  If Fangio stays put, I hope we pluck Ed Donatell from his staff, since that would be the next best thing.  Both of these guys worked with GMSM in San Francisco when Harbaugh was there.  That defense was crazy good.  Even in Chicago, Fangio has done a great job.  The stats don't lie:

 

                                Team Defense Rank (yards-pts against)

                       2013           2014                  2015            2016

Bears         30th-30th     30th-31st          14th-20th       9th-16th

Skins         18th-30th     20th-29th           28th-17th      29th-24th

(Source: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/was/)

 

Fangio and Barry were both hired at the beginning of 2015.  I only included 2013 and 2014 to show how consistently bad the Bears defense was before Fangio took over.  Pretty nice turnaround, eh?  Now imagine what Fangio could have done here with our offense.  I think we'd easily have more than 10 wins right now.  Barry on the other hand is leading our defense the wrong way.  When he couldn't provide a clear explanation of why he wasn't putting our best corner on the other team's best receiver (first 2 games of this season) only to backtrack and make that change, I knew he wasn't our guy.  We need to get him out of here before our influx of defensive talent this offseason.  With the right DC and GMSM's focus on defense this spring, there's no reason why we can't be better than average next season.  If Gruden picks another guy because he's young, energetic, and has lived in the Tampa Bay area at some point between 2002-2008, I'm going to flip out.  If the guy has previous head coaching experience, so what?  Jay needs to stop worrying about hiring someone who may take his job (e.g. Wade Phillips) and instead worry about finding a guy who'll help him KEEP his job.

 

 

[clskinsfan]

20 hours ago, s0crates said:

I clicked the thread hoping to see information on draft and FA prospects at safety and MLB, as I think those are the positions that need to change to improve the defense, but it appears the OP has gone with the assumption that the coordinator is the problem.

 

I think he is a big part of the problem. I have been outspoken all season about the pathetic talent in the middle of this defense. Specifically at LB and Safety. The question is do you want Barry coaching up any new talent that Scott is sure to be bringing in. Or do you want a proven defensive mind to work with that talent. And I did clearly state in my post that talking about player signings/draft picks is pretty much worthless until we know who will be running the defense. Whoever that is will want input into those acquisitions to make sure they fit his defensive philosophy.

[skinsfan834]

To put things in perspective, just count how many of our starters on D would actually even play on an AVERAGE defense in the NFL. Baker, Kerrigan, Murphy, Norman and Breeland (maybe).

 

Literally over half of our starters wouldn’t touch the field, barring injury, on an average NFL team. Let’s get Barry some talent this off-season and then we can reassess.

[GhostofAlvinWalton]

15 hours ago, goskins10 said:

 

 

It's clear we are not communicating well here.

 

I will try to get it back on track - I would not say most have agreed there is a lack of talent. Some have begrudgingly agreed but then are quick to say Barry is making it worse. Hard to make that statement for me. I am not even a big fan of Barry's. I just know it's really hard to judge him fairly when the entire middle of the D is weak - ILB and S being the worst. The dline is actually playing better than people give them credit for. But without that playmaker at either S of ILB, they will have troubles. When you look at some of the more detailed breakdowns of his D, he is putting guys in the right position - they just don't have the ability - or for a few of them, the heart - needed to make the play. He is not perfect by any means. But all people make mistakes. Not every defensive call is going to work out.

 

I am and have been in the camp that:

1. Do not fire Barry before the need to the season. Do not like the dysfunction it shows - yet again! Also, even though we need help now, we could still make the POs. Not good to make that change this late in the season.

2. If the FO keeps him - they have more info than us so I will be OK with it.

3. If the FO fires him - same as #2 - but instead will support whoever new comes in.

 

You're right, that did come off harsh and I was probably venting on you...which is what I thought you were doing to me...which makes me an ass...sorry.

 

To you points, we are probably in lock step for the most part.  I hate firing coaches during the season. If they keep Barry I won't cry about it but I will be fairly nervous going into next season.  If they do fire him I pray they get someone who is above average. 

 

If anyone can't see the lack of talent (esp. ILB & Safety) then don't even bother with them...it will just drive you crazy. I will say Barry does not instill confidence in me. Maybe it's his body language, the constant confusion by the DEF (mainly DBs) or something else I can't properly articulate but I have little faith he can turn it around much even with better players.  But maybe he just needs time and some dudes that can run to the correct spot and then tackle.  To Barry's defense (and to evaluate him properly) the Skins need, at least, one NFL starter quality ILB (2 would be better) and a starter quality SS & FS.  They don't need to be Pro bowl caliber...just avg NFL starter quality.  If they had that and the DEF was NFL avg #13 - #18 I'd feel better about Barry long term.

[goskins10]

58 minutes ago, GhostofAlvinWalton said:

 

You're right, that did come off harsh and I was probably venting on you...which is what I thought you were doing to me......sorry.

 

To your points, we are probably in lock step for the most part.  I hate firing coaches during the season. If they keep Barry I won't cry about it but I will be fairly nervous going into next season.  If they do fire him I pray they get someone who is above average. 

 

Edit

 

No worries. We are all very passionate about our Skins. Monday was a frustrating game. The last time I was this pissed at the team was when we lost to these same ass clowns in 2013. Man I hate Carolina.

 

Anyway, I think we are very much in the same spot, especially in terms of talent. Not sure Barry is the guy and I hear you about positioning. But I have to wonder if some of that isn't guys who do what they are doing trying to direct traffic.

 

We have two more games. Have to finish strong. If not, I would expect to see some wholesale changes. One thing that has not been talked about much - the DBs are probably the most talented group as a whole. Yet they seem to be the worst prepared. Is that Perry Fewell or Barry or both? My thoughts are it's Perry more than Barry - but Barry certainly owns some of it as the DC.

 

Either way, the upcoming off-season should be interesting.

[Hogs 1991]

13 hours ago, skins island connection said:

 when you look back, when Mike Shanahan was hired here, he wanted the 3-4, and its been a colossal failure ever since.

This ! As much credit Shanahan deserves for drafting Kirk Cousins, and the influx of offense we have because of that, he deserves just as much blame for our defense, or lack thereof, because he just had to fix what was never broken and force the 3-4 because the popular kids (New England) was doing it. PS I think Vic Fangio is the ideal candidate for the job. I hope GMSM can discretely sweet talk him  our Saturday .

[SkinsPassion4Life]

I'll predict we hire Gus Bradley because of his connection to GMSM and we switch to the 4-3 full time.

[kingarthur65]

There will be plenty of time to talk about this during the off season.  No need to discuss this now.

 

STOP IT!

[clskinsfan]

With the retirement of Gary Kubiak it appears Phillips may become available in this off season. I updated the op to reflect his philosophy.

[RWJ]

On ‎12‎/‎22‎/‎2016 at 10:57 PM, SkinsPassion4Life said:

I'll predict we hire Gus Bradley because of his connection to GMSM and we switch to the 4-3 full time.

That's my belief IF and I say IF we release Barry.  Bradley also was a linebacker coach with the TB Bucs when both Jon/Jay Gruden were there along with Allen being GM.  The 2nd choice would be Phillips.  Just guessing on both accounts.

[DogofWar1]

26 minutes ago, clskinsfan said:

With the retirement of Gary Kubiak it appears Phillips may become available in this off season. I updated the op to reflect his philosophy.

Apparently there's some tweet floating around from Wade that has raised some eyebrows.

 

 

He followed it up with this:

 

 

Also not sure if he'd come back here after...um...well, the whole early 2015...thing.

 

But still, rumor mill in full grind mode.

[Wildbunny]

Just a funny thinking...

We fire Barry, and McVay goes HC to LA.

Then we hire Wade Philips as DC and promote Wes Philips as OC.

[clskinsfan]

10 hours ago, Wildbunny said:

Just a funny thinking...

We fire Barry, and McVay goes HC to LA.

Then we hire Wade Philips as DC and promote Wes Philips as OC.

 

I would obviously be OK with that. But I dont see a 30 year old getting a head coaching gig. If Phillips is available I think we have to make a play for him dont we?

[clskinsfan]

With todays OUTSTANDING news. We can now start to speculate about which defensive mastermind will be running the defense in the future. Personally. I hope we wait for Wade to become available before filling any position on the defensive side of the ball. But if you wait too long you run the risk of missing out on one of the other guys. Interesting times ahead indeed!

 

Edit: Oh. And I told ya there was no way they keep Barry with the defensive talent that was going to be available