2016 Roster Thread (Building a Champion Edition) - Doct to IR - Mo Harris Up

[Aireskoi]

31 minutes ago, daveakl said:

ODB was just an injured wr during his 1st training camp.

Deone Bucannon was just more of a tweener then a true S or LB.

And our own Josh Norman was a 5th round CB5 his first camp.

Let's give the dudes a few games before declaring it a bad offseason.

ODB - 1st round 12th pick

Buchannon - 1st round 27th pick

Norman - 5th round, but it was clear very early that he was legit...

After a strong OTAs where Norman earned high praise from both the coaching staff and Panthers receiver Steve Smith, Sr., Norman was tabbed as the starting cornerback opposite Chris Gamble. Norman played in 16 games and started 12 games as a rookie

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josh_Norman_(cornerback)

 

Redskins used a 5th round pick after trading away the 4th round for a 5th next year.  Then Matt is cut and signed to practice squad.

See the difference?

[Panamon28]

I suspect that Ihenacho will be inactive on game days...need to have Blackmon up as 2nd FS (and verstile defender in dime defence)...Everett is too good on STs to sit. Fuller probably sits in week 1 too but I suspect that he'll carve out a role on the active roster by October.

[goskins10]

18 minutes ago, Aireskoi said:

ODB - 1st round 12th pick

Buchannon - 1st round 27th pick

Norman - 5th round, but it was clear very early that he was legit...

After a strong OTAs where Norman earned high praise from both the coaching staff and Panthers receiver Steve Smith, Sr., Norman was tabbed as the starting cornerback opposite Chris Gamble. Norman played in 16 games and started 12 games as a rookie

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josh_Norman_(cornerback)

 

Redskins used a 5th round pick after trading away the 4th round for a 5th next year.  Then Matt is cut and signed to practice squad.

See the difference?

 

No. Not at all. For Odell Beckham Jr (I assume that's who you mean with ODB - BTW: It's OBJ if you use initials), the message is the same - be patient and let's see first!

For Josh Norman, you copied Wiki - that can be a mistake in itself - but OK, let's go that route. There was absolutely no indication he was legit. As a matter of fact he lost his starting job in 2013 and then was very close to be released outright in 2014. He did regain his starting job midway through 2014 and has been very good since (btw: Not down on Norman at all. I am very glad he is here.) - But again this would prove the original posters point that you need some patience.

Not sure at all where you are going with the Buchannon reference. He was a 1st rd pick. Iaonnidis was a 5th rd pick. Of course he was put on the PS. 5th rd guys are typically developmental guys. Scot is looking at the end game which is the long term view. Again, you need some patience.

And you completely glossed over our 2nd and 3rd picks that look to be instant contributors. Long term starters? Wait for it...... We need some patience to see.

 

So unless you were just piling on to daveakl's post and actually agreeing (not likely with the "see the difference" statement) then again, not sure what point you are trying to make. If I am really just missing something, then accept my apologies now. But I am just not seeing what your point is here.

[Aireskoi]

16 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

So unless you were just piling on to daveakl's post and actually agreeing (not likely with the "see the difference" statement) then again, not sure what point you are trying to make. If I am really just missing something, then accept my apologies now. But I am just not seeing what your point is here.

 

The point is we had a pocket full of money (draft picks) and we went to the auction (draft) needing help on the D'line and we ended up spending loose change on the position.  KB pointed this out and I agree, but somehow OBJ (I copied the other abbreviation ODB to make it easier for readers), Bucannon, and Norman got brought into it as examples that you have to wait and see.  Big difference because they were high picks besides Norman, and he flashed immediately.

Anthony Lanier made the team undrafted, but he's the only one to make the team in a draft so deep with D'line talent.  Maybe he will be a stud, and maybe Ioannidis will be just what we needed.  Strange that we would cut and PS the only D'lineman we drafted though.

 

Wiki - is it wrong?  I don't usually use it but it was pretty straight forward.  Does it really matter where it came from if it's correct?  

Edit: I also posted the link so I really don't know why bring that up.

[goskins10]

8 minutes ago, Aireskoi said:

 

The point is we had a pocket full of money (draft picks) and we went to the auction (draft) needing help on the D'line and we ended up spending loose change on the position.  KB pointed this out and I agree, but somehow OBJ (I copied the other abbreviation ODB to make it easier for readers), Bucannon, and Norman got brought into it as examples that you have to wait and see.  Big difference because they were high picks besides Norman, and he flashed immediately.

Anthony Lanier made the team undrafted, but he's the only one to make the team in a draft so deep with D'line talent.  Maybe he will be a stud, and maybe Ioannidis will be just what we needed.  Strange that we would cut and PS the only D'lineman we drafted though.

 

Wiki - is it wrong?  I don't usually use it but it was pretty straight forward.  Does it really matter where it came from if it's correct?  

Edit: I also posted the link so I really don't know why bring that up.

 

First, I said that could be a mistake quoting wiki because quite frankly it's wrong more than it's right. Also, with players many times it's being written by fans who have a skewed view. But I also followed up with but Ok we will go with it. My bigger point was you cherry picked it. In fact that Norman pick was not immediately evident he was "legit". He lost his starting job in 2013 and then was almost released in 2014.

OBJ would seem to prove the other posters point. I missed the Buchanon reference - still early! I agree that one makes no sense. He was a 1st round pick to start with. not sure how that plays here at all.

Just because the team did not address the dline in the draft, A) Does not mean it was not addressed and B. Shows the Redskins do not see it the same way you do. You and some others see it as urgent. Clearly Scot does not as he sees other areas as more important. 

Many saw this as a deep draft in terms of Dlineman. But there is more to making draft picks than that. When it was our turn, the next guy up would have been a reach. That's why when you pick for need you start making mistakes. Last on this one, lot's of people say it was deep. But until they start playing no one knows for sure.

Lastly, it's not like those picks were just lost. They were use for other positions. People being critical of this draft as always are being way too critical way too early. Drafts always take time to evaluate. As for the offseason, to look at the draft in isolation is just not a good plan.

 

[daveakl]

My point was KB said we came away with a injured wr, a undersized lb, and a cb5.

You could easily compare our first three picks with OBJ, DB, and JN. I would think if they panned out that way we would be perfectly happy.

Or they all end up busts and our team sucks.

Arguing over who we "missed" on drafting when not a single game that matters has been played is kind of silly.

[Koolblue13]

Just now, daveakl said:

My point was KB said we came away with a injured wr, a undersized lb, and a cb5.

You could easily compare our first three picks with OBJ, DB, and JN. I would think if they panned out that way we would be perfectly happy.

Or they all end up busts and our team sucks.

Arguing over who we "missed" on drafting when not a single game that matters has been played is kind of silly.

I don't disagree with you. Who knows how those guys pan out. I guess we'll find out if these guys are hits, but we didn't fix a single issue with the team this offseason and we could have.

I guess Bruton is our most important FA. 

[goskins10]

2 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

I don't disagree with you. Who knows how those guys pan out. I guess we'll find out if these guys are hits, but we didn't fix a single issue with the team this offseason and we could have.

I guess Bruton is our most important FA. 

 

More than Josh Norman? Also, the entire secondary was a disaster last year and now it's a strength. The DLine while not great is better than last year. Our Oline got better by just getting a few guys back healthy and another year under their belt. Judging what effect the moves during the offseason has on the team before the season even starts is very pre-mature.

But the bigger point is that the team is building for the long term, not the let's win right now at all cost.

[TheGreek1973]

I agree with KB and Aireskoi.  Some of you guys think its sacrilege to even contemplating criticizing ScottM, but the truth of the matter is we are going into this season a little "naked" on DL.  Granted at the time of the draft we had Gallette, and expensive DL in Paea and you could say that Scott probably wanted to draft DLs earlier but it never worked out as teams probably picked them before us.  But how about trading up is that is the case, it was a major need for us to get healthy and young on the DL.  

We had a horrid run D last year so  I still don't get the fact that in the 4th round Billings was there and we didn't pull the trigger especially when you think we traded that pick for peanuts IMO.  Yes I know Billings is out for the year, probably had an injury issue but still I would have loved to have him than Ioannidis who is also technically out for the year since he didn't make the 53.  Yes Billing is a two down DL but who is to say he can't progress to being an everydown player?  He was a 2nd round rated talent that fell to us in late 4th and we traded out.  

[Skinsinparadise]

I am as much of a draft geek as anyone but the idea that Billings is regarded as 2nd round talent because name that NFL pundit talking head said so, I am doubting holds any weight with Scot or any GM for that matter.

Be one thing if this is our go for broke, Superbowl year, but otherwise I think the idea of going BPA in the last draft was still the way to go. Yeah perhaps he didn't fix the D line but arguably turned a bad secondary into a pretty good one.  And perhaps warded off a looming weakness at WR with an aging D. Jax and Garcon who are impending FAs.  And added 3 picks to next year's draft in the process.  When was the last time we had a GM that loaded up picks like that?

Just about every team has a glaring weakness.

Parcell's liked to say if you are batting 50-50 as a GM you are doing a great job.    If the point here is Scot isn't the first GM in history to get it all right or he failed within 2 years to turn arguably one of the worst rosters in the NFL (missing first round picks for the previous 2 seasons) to a juggernaut with no glaring weaknesses -- that's true.  So far its just an NFL East championship within a year.

 

 

 

 

[Koolblue13]

Just now, goskins10 said:

 

More than Josh Norman? Also, the entire secondary was a disaster last year and now it's a strength. The DLine while not great is better than last year. Our Oline got better by just getting a few guys back healthy and another year under their belt. Judging what effect the moves during the offseason has on the team before the season even starts is very pre-mature.

But the bigger point is that the team is building for the long term, not the let's win right now at all cost.

We'll see if Norman is an improvement, but most of the improvements to the team, weren't additions. Hall with a full offseason at his new position. Compton being the starter. Etc. SS was the biggest hole with Nacho hurt. With drafting Fuller and signing Toler, did we really need Norman?

Outside of Baker, what do we have on that line? We've got the same OLBs as last year and that wasn't a strength.

I'm generally pretty optimistic, but Ionidias going to the PS really pissed me off.

[goskins10]

15 minutes ago, TheGreek1973 said:

I agree with KB and Aireskoi.  Some of you guys think its sacrilege to even contemplating criticizing ScottM, but the truth of the matter is we are going into this season a little "naked" on DL.  Granted at the time of the draft we had Gallette, and expensive DL in Paea and you could say that Scott probably wanted to draft DLs earlier but it never worked out as teams probably picked them before us.  But how about trading up is that is the case, it was a major need for us to get healthy and young on the DL.  

We had a horrid run D last year so  I still don't get the fact that in the 4th round Billings was there and we didn't pull the trigger especially when you think we traded that pick for peanuts IMO.  Yes I know Billings is out for the year, probably had an injury issue but still I would have loved to have him than Ioannidis who is also technically out for the year since he didn't make the 53.  Yes Billing is a two down DL but who is to say he can't progress to being an everydown player?  He was a 2nd round rated talent that fell to us in late 4th and we traded out.  

 

You and many others continue to make the same mistake of thinking that if someone disagrees with your assessment it's because of some blind faith or reverence to Scot M. I can only truly speak for myself, but I just plain disagree with your assessment. It has nothing to do with how I feel about Scot. I just think you are wrong, period. And from your own words, I believe I am allowed to have that opinion.

Scot and the FO will not hit on every player. What you, I and others do not know is all the different thought and processes that went into making the selections they did. If the right guy had been there then they would have made the pick. Or the information that they have that we do not.

I find it interesting people keep bringing up Billings. He dropped for a reason. Besides only being a 2 down player, there were concerns about his health. It was believed he was already injured. I do not know that as a fact, but I do know that was circulating at the time. That's where you have to assume that Scot and the FO have more information than we do - because well they do.

Would like to continue but I have a tee time. Going to enjoy the weather. Can't wait for Pittsburg!

[Aireskoi]

52 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

 

First, I said that could be a mistake quoting wiki because quite frankly it's wrong more than it's right. Also, with players many times it's being written by fans who have a skewed view. But I also followed up with but Ok we will go with it. My bigger point was you cherry picked it. In fact that Norman pick was not immediately evident he was "legit". He lost his starting job in 2013 and then was almost released in 2014.

 

Please go back and read again so you can stop this.  You're missing the point.

Norman started 16 games as a Rookie in 2012.  He was not cut and put on PS for week 1 or any week after that his Rookie season.  I didn't say he was great, just that he flashed early and got the starts.  Please post a link otherwise or let it go.

35 minutes ago, daveakl said:

My point was KB said we came away with a injured wr, a undersized lb, and a cb5.

You could easily compare our first three picks with OBJ, DB, and JN. I would think if they panned out that way we would be perfectly happy.

Or they all end up busts and our team sucks.

Arguing over who we "missed" on drafting when not a single game that matters has been played is kind of silly.

Very true about Doctson and Cravens, I'm with you there.  KB was referring to not addressing the D'line more than giving up on the Rookies, unless I completely missed his point.

10 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I am as much of a draft geek as anyone but the idea that Billings is regarded as 2nd round talent because name that NFL pundit talking head said so, I am doubting holds any wait with Scot or any GM for that matter.

Be one thing if this is our go for broke, Superbowl year, but otherwise I think the idea of going BPA in the last draft was still the way to go. Yeah perhaps he didn't fix the D line but arguably turned a bad secondary into a pretty good one.  And perhaps wared off a looming weakness at WR with an aging D. Jax and Garcon who are impending FAs.

Just about every team has a glaring weakness.

 

That's fair, but we passed on all of them.

The worst feeling as a fan that I know of is having a team run the ball at will against my defense, and then when they adjust to stop it they throw over the top.  Scot said he will not let that happen, he said we would build a bully.  I believe him, I don't understand how, but I believe him.  That's why I have questions.

[moondog]

I think what frustrates me is peoples' perspectives, or lack thereof. You/we have every right to criticize decisions that don't work out. What I don't appreciate is people getting a bit of a soda straw point of view and now all of a sudden saying SM isn't all that great of a GM. What is needed is a more comprehensive view of what he has done. He's eliminated leaks and made this a respected franchise (in terms of how it is run, and in only 2 years he's well on his way to making it a respected franchise well respected for its play). He's drastically improved the TEAM. We are all a little disappointed with the D-line. If it is better this year it is only because guys we had last year got better or they play better with this combo. BUT, looking at one position group is so nearsighted. He's had some swing/misses with the D-line, although the attempt was there, they just didn't work out. Meanwhile we are lightyears ahead at receiver (Doctson/Crowder), TE (Davis, new Reed contract), O-line (bringing in Callahan, Scherff, Moses' development under Callahan as well as others like Reiter, Long, Kuandjo), QB (said enough is enough or supported it with RGIII and went with Cousins), CB and even Safety. Special teams and depth are vastly improved. 

So yes, D-line and our run D is a big concern. It was addressed but it didn't work out. But as a GM his success rate and improvements to this team are so unbelievably high its ridiculous. Everyone from fans to the national media gloats over "The Patriot Way" and everything they do over there yet they have so many misses its insane. They traded away Jones, missed on Knighton and now Ninkovich (LB, I know, but still plays mostly moving forward) is suspended. They have holes too. You can't/won't every plug every hole. Every team, including the SB winning Broncos had holes. But it was masked by the outstanding position groups on that team. Their QB's were weak (sorry Peyton), their RB's were nothing to gawk at, I have no idea who their TE's were outside of Davis...but they built that defense so well it masked their offensive woes (which included about everything outside of WR and maybe O-line. 

So, no, SM isn't perfect. But anyone saying's he's less than a top 5 GM is out of their mind and shortsighted imo. So many other GM's around the league are viewed way better than they are because they got a Franchise QB and that masks just about everything. 

[Aireskoi]

4 minutes ago, moondog said:

So, no, SM isn't perfect. But anyone saying's he's less than a top 5 GM is out of their mind and shortsighted imo. So many other GM's around the league are viewed way better than they are because they got a Franchise QB and that masks just about everything. 

The Redskins defense was 30th against the run last year, giving up 4.8 YPC.  The Packers exploited the run defense in the playoffs, and then everything opened up.

8 minutes ago, moondog said:

...We are all a little disappointed with the D-line. If it is better this year it is only because guys we had last year got better or they play better with this combo. BUT, looking at one position group is so nearsighted. He's had some swing/misses with the D-line, although the attempt was there, they just didn't work out. ...

So yes, D-line and our run D is a big concern. It was addressed but it didn't work out. 

How it was/wasn't addressed is the discussion.  Nobody wants Scot out that I know of, not that you said they did.

[TheGreek1973]

MoonDog I never said he wasn't good, hell I think he is the main reason we are hopeful for this team this year and going forward.  What I said was it don't make sense to me that in a draft perceived deep in DLs the only player we picked couldn't even make the 53.  And we had a glaring need in DL.  Also Jones to me so far is a major fail when it comes to RBs, and I hope not doing a long term deal really bites ScottM in the butt because that would mean we have our franchise QB.  

So if this year Cousins proves it again he is the man, Jones flat out sucks, our DL can't stop anyone running the ball then yea questions by us arm chair GMs will be asked and answers will be demanded.   I mean lets face it we don't know crap of what is going on compared to even a Redskins scout never mind ScottM but still as fans we have the right to ask these questions.

[Koolblue13]

I think Scot is a great GM.

I also think this was a bad draft and offseason.

I think Billings is a fat linebacker who will never play a down.

[checmate21]

15 hours ago, HanburgerBum said:

Over Doctson, Cravens and Fuller?  I wouldn't.

The NFL game today is mostly about passing and stopping the pass.  Doctson should be huge in the former, while Cravens should be an outstanding blitzer and Fuller should be an elite cover guy.  Billings has virtually no pass rush skills.  He is just a run-stopper, and run-stoppers are much easier to find than pass rushers.

Billings went in the 4th round...thought he could have been a force with is..if it's so easy how come we haven't found a run stopper then?..last time we had a great run stopper?

[GoSkins0721]

I'll echo what others have said - you can't plug every hole every year. I think everything about the team has to be viewed in totality, not just who has been drafted and/or signed.

Offseaon hits: Reed resigned, WR strength improved (top 5 in the league?), internal leaks eliminated, $18.08M* in cap space to start the 2016 season (as of today) that can be carried over to 2017, improved D backfield, full off season for starting QB, bloated-contracts/non-productive players ejected from the roster (Hatcher, Roberts, Culliver, Paea, Perry), team got younger, starting LG back after injury (Lauvao w/ Licht run game was decent in 2015), competition at S shows glimmer of improvement over previous years. 

Offseason misses: RB situation is the same with an unknown in what Kelley will bring & an injured Jones, starting C wasn't improved, high-priced DL (Paea) failed to impress coming back from injury, drafted DL fails to impress (signed to PS), DL FA signings unimpressive, JGallete injured (again). 

*Per Over The Cap

 

[Going Commando]

The main disappointments about this draft class for me are that Ioannidis doesn't seem to have a natural fit in our defense and so ended up on the PS, and that Daniels went on IR.  Projecting Ioannidis at NT was a bit of a stretch based on his body type and the fact he played mostly 3 technique in Temple's 4-3.  He's strong but not very bulky.  Probably played in the 280-290 range last season.  He's a more natural fit as a 3 & 5 technique here, which is what I think McCloughan envisioned him as on draft day, but he became a victim of the numbers game at that position.  Golston is the only natural 1 technique on the roster, and he got outplayed by Anthony Lanier.

He's still got a chance at panning out though, so we shouldn't give up on him yet.  He needed more time and he'll get it this way.  It's all about how he responds to getting cut to the practice squad.  And a season ending injury to pretty much any one of our other 6 DLs probably gets him back on the roster.

The situation with Doctson is disappointing too of course, made more so because I liked Treadwell over him.  But Treadwell struggled during the preseason and certainly hasn't proven McCloughan wrong.  Doctson will probably get off to a slow start but he has a chance to be really good.  So do Cravens and Fuller.  If McCloughan hit home runs with those first three picks, then it was a good draft class.  Period.

[Koolblue13]

The Dline has been a huge weakness for a while. Not sure what FAs were available, but coming out of the deepest draft for DL with nothing, is disappointing. Our line may have even gotten worse.

[redskins59]

Who knows,perhaps they don't think the problem last year was the Dline, but rather the inside linebackers. Compton should have improved from last year, and Spaight looks good.   That position is deeper.  

Now, in preseason games, I felt that the Redskins were not always  able to stop the run very well, I am not going to lie.  The game against Buffalo was especially troubling. 

[Aireskoi]

On 9/3/2016 at 8:48 AM, Aireskoi said:

Here's a rookie that was cut by the Bucs.  TE/FB H-Back 6th Round pick.  

They're keeping 5 TE's, so it may be a numbers game.

...

video

Bills scooped him up to play the role of "Superback" for them.

http://www.buffalobills.com/news/article-1/Bills-claim-FB-Dan-Vitale/02f251c3-d3ca-4ab6-a9f8-476d5b41c24f

[s0crates]

13 hours ago, Wyvern said:

 2 hours ago, Wyvern said:     What happens is Kelley gets injured, in week one?  

1 hour ago, s0crates said:     We would move Brown up from the practice squad

                                      

Thanks for the reply -- however it doesn't really answer the main question I had been posing -- where would the Skins find a high quality starting level (vet?) RB to lead their running attack if Kelley went down?  Because it's possible Brown might not be that great of an NFL RB yet, or  if he WAS "starter-level" good, someone might have already picked him up before the Skins needed to call him up.

The fact Brown didn't make the 53, but made it safely to the practice squad, might imply most talent evaluators currently feel he's JAG, and still at PS level.  Candidly, from what I saw, besides the Tampa game and a few good moments against pre-season 3rd stringers,  Brown really hasn't shown that he should be considered in the running for the position of Skns starting RB.

However, if Brown's as good as some of his fans suggest, then it's likely some team would also notice that and pluck him from the Skins practice squad to add to their 53.  Then the Skins would have to scramble to find another RB, and quickly get that guy up to speed, while Kelley and Jones healed up.

My only point was --  the Skins seems really deep at defensive secondary, and a little light at RB, because of the health questions surrounding Jones, and Thompson's durability issues.

To be clear, I am hoping Kelley pans out, and stays healthy -- but I really feel  it would be prudent to have a tested/vet RB getting up to speed, as insurance. After all, Jones could reinjure himself, Thompson gets dinged up easily, and we don't know how durable Kelley is in a long-term starting role.

 

 

I'm sure you're right that GMs and coaches around the NFL feel Brown is JAG. As you say, he did clear waivers. Of course I'm also pretty sure that can be said of most teams' 4th RBs.

I'm not exactly sure what you're asking the team to do here. We have three young RBs on the 53, one on the practice squad, and one on IR. How many RBs do you think we need?

I could see being upset we lost AlMo (I was too), but I cannot think of anybody I wouldn't want in the group we do have. Jones is big, fast, and strong. He can block and catch. There are some concerns about his ball security and injury problems, but I think he could be good. Thompson has proven to be a pretty good 3rd down back. Kelley looks like a diamond in the rough, strong runner, good instincts, good blocker. Marshall remains to be seen, but we know he is fast. Brown showed a lot of potential in the preseason.

I see a lot of potential in our RB group. It seems like you don't, so I guess I'll ask: Which of the guys we have would you cut, and who would you want instead?

 

 

[Wyvern]

Maybe Hillman (Broncos) or Sankey (Titans) ... Or Pierre (FA).  I just think they need to have someone a little bit more knowledgeable of the running game at the starting level of the NFL.  (Because, I don't think Brown would do as well at that level -- and we really don't know enough about Kelley.)  

Frankly,  I'd rather have Kelley start and Jones spell him -- but if Kelley gets injured, the Skins running game would be in trouble. And it would take some time to train someone else to assume the starting role.

The Skins put all their eggs in the Matt Jones basket, and after his shoulder sprain/slight separation they have a predicament.   Because, despite the suggestions that Matt will be ready to go for game 1,  most medical opinion indicate that kind of injury isn't easy to overcome -- especially for a high-contact, between-the-tackles running back with fumbling problems.

Look, I'm not saying I have the answers -- I just felt the Skins needed to consider more proven depth at running back, because the current RB depth is already being challenged as a result of pre-season injuries.

.... And for all I know, the Skins talent acquisition folks might already have some plans in action.