NBCNEWS: Erdogan Condemns, Warns Pope Francis Over Armenian Genocide Remark

[No Excuses]

ISTANBUL — Turkish President Tayyip Erdogan condemned Pope Francis on Tuesday for comments that the 1915 mass killing of Armenians was genocide, warning him not to make such a statement again.

The pope became the first head of the Roman Catholic church to publicly call the killing of as many as 1.5 million Armenians "genocide" on Sunday, prompting a diplomatic spat with Turkey, which summoned the Vatican's envoy and recalled its own.

Muslim Turkey agrees Christian Armenians were killed in clashes with Ottoman soldiers that began on April 15, 1915, when Armenians lived in the empire ruled by Istanbul, but denies hundreds of thousands were killed and that this amounted to genocide.

"We will not allow historical incidents to be taken out of their genuine context and be used as a tool to campaign against our country," Erdogan said in a speech to a business group. "I condemn the pope and would like to warn him not to make similar mistakes again."

 

 

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/turkeys-erdogan-condemns-warns-pope-francis-over-armenian-genocide-remark-n341936

 

I doubt this gets much traction in the Tailgate since the level of ****s given about Turkish problems are reasonably quite low. This issue is driving me absolutely ****ing nuts. The denial from Turkic groups over something that is quite clearly genocide is mind boggling. The only reasons I can come up with for outright denial is:

 

1. Entirely too much nationalism amongst Turkic people.

 

2. Not admitting that the Ottomans committed a horrific act. The Ottomans are usually meant to be the shining beacon of tolerance for a lot of people from this area. To admit that they killed ~1 million people puts a dent into this idea.

 

Both my girlfriend (who is also Turkic) and I are completely baffled by the ignorance on this issue. Many of our friends, who even belong to Turkic groups that may be facing genocide themselves in China are in outright denial mode.

 

I'm currently embroiled in a lengthy online arguments with some friends. But history is not my forte and if anyone has any credible, unbiased sources for this issue, I would greatly appreciate it.

 

/endrant

[Mad Mike]

I'm not surprised by the denial. It's the "warning" that gets me. What does he plan to do? Kill more Christians?

[twa]

yeah, both the event and denial are rather common.

[No Excuses]

I'm not surprised by the denial. It's the "warning" that gets me. What does he plan to do? Kill more Christians?

 

Erdogan is a moron. Ignore what he says. 

 

I'm mostly concerned by the general public. Turkish culture prides itself on open mindedness and isn't as culturally conservative as the rest of the region. But the ignorance and flat out denial in regards to this issue is ****ing pathetic.

[SkinInsite]

Erdogan is a moron. Ignore what he says. 

 

I'm mostly concerned by the general public. Turkish culture prides itself on open mindedness and isn't as culturally conservative as the rest of the region. But the ignorance and flat out denial in regards to this issue is ****ing pathetic.

 

Kind of like how Japan wants to whitewash all the WW2 atrocities in Asia. 

[Riggo-toni]

Or Belgium doesn't want to admit it committed genocide in the Congo, or we can't admit the trail of tears was genocide/ethnic cleansing.

At least Germany has faced up to its guilt, though I loved a quote a German commentator made some years ago that it’s easier to find 6000 Germans who would protest cutting down 600 trees than it is to find 600 Germans who would protest killing 6 million Jews.

[SkinInsite]

Yup most countries are pretty thin skinned when it comes to criticism.

 

Freedom Fries anyone

[Burgold]

Yeah, this has been Turkey's MO for a long time. They are very thin skinned and deep in denial when it comes to this issue.

[visionary]

Yeah, this has been Turkey's MO for a long time. They are very thin skinned and deep in denial when it comes to this issue.

And Erdogan and his administration tend to be pretty thin-skinned in general and generally full of hot air.

[Predicto]

Yeah, this has been Turkey's MO for a long time. They are very thin skinned and deep in denial when it comes to this issue.

 

Not much else to say.   The Turks have convinced themselves that it was a Russian-instigated rebellion that was put down in the same way as anyone else put down revolts in 1915 (or) that the numbers are all inflated (or) that everyone did bad stuff in the heat of war (or) that modern Turkey isn't responsible for what the Ottomans did (or) that the Ottomans couldn't control the local soldiers (or) that under a technical reading of international law this doesn't meet one of the elements of the word "genocide" (or) that the Armenians mostly died from famine and natural causes due to being moved from where they were hindering the war efforts (or) the records are inconsistent (or) Europeans did worse things to the Native Americans so who are they to judge anyone (or) a bunch of Muslims died too when they got kicked out of the eastern Europe and Russia and why isn't anyone talking about that it's not fair.

 

It doesn't matter that many of these things are inconsistent with each other.   They have an emotional truth to the Turks.   I don't see it changing soon. 

[No Excuses]

Not much else to say.   The Turks have convinced themselves that it was a Russian-instigated rebellion that was put down in the same way as anyone else put down revolts in 1915 (or) that the numbers are all inflated (or) that everyone did bad stuff in the heat of war (or) that modern Turkey isn't responsible for what the Ottomans did (or) that the Ottomans couldn't control the local soldiers (or) that under a technical reading of international law this doesn't meet one of the elements of the word "genocide" (or) that the Armenians mostly died from famine and natural causes due to being moved from where they were hindering the war efforts (or) the records are inconsistent (or) Europeans did worse things to the Native Americans so who are they to judge anyone (or) a bunch of Muslims died too when they got kicked out of the eastern Europe and Russia and why isn't anyone talking about that it's not fair.

 

It doesn't matter that many of these things are inconsistent with each other.   They have an emotional truth to the Turks.   I don't see it changing soon. 

 

Funny. I could post my entire conversation that I'm having online with my Turkic friends and everything hits that list.

 

I know the denial existed in the community but I had no idea it was this bad.

These are all American born and raised Turks. I'm completely dumbfounded because I figured our generation would be less obtuse and less prone to nationalism since none of us have homeland attachment the way our immigrant parents do.

[Predicto]

Funny. I could post my entire conversation that I'm having online with my Turkic friends and everything hits that list.

 

I know the denial existed in the community but I had no idea it was this bad.

These are all American born and raised Turks. I'm completely dumbfounded because I figured our generation would be less obtuse and less prone to nationalism since none of us have homeland attachment the way our immigrant parents do.

 

 

I know a third generation American of Serbian descent who is sure that the Serbians have always been the victims in every conflict.   Human nature includes a lot of tribalism.  

[visionary]

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/16/world/europe/european-parliament-urges-turkey-to-recognize-armenian-genocide.html?partner=rss&emc=rss&smid=tw-nytimesworld&_r=0

European Parliament Urges Turkey to Recognize Armenian Genocide

The European Union’s nonbinding resolution calls for the normalization of relations between Armenia and Turkey by formally establishing diplomatic ties and engaging in cross-border cooperation and economic integration.

 

It goes further by urging the Turkish government to use the commemoration of the centennial as an opportunity to “open the archives and come to terms with its past,” by recognizing the Armenian genocide and creating the basis for a genuine reconciliation.

 

Before the European Parliament’s vote on Wednesday, President Recep Tayyip Erdogan of Turkey had spoken out against the European Union and the pope for their recognition of the killings as genocide. “Whatever decision the European Parliament takes on Armenian genocide claims, it will go in one ear and out the other,” Mr. Erdogan said, speaking at a news conference in Ankara. “It is out of the question for there to be a stain or a shadow called genocide on Turkey,” he added.

[Bang]

I don't mean to minimize, but can 100 year old sleeping dogs just be left to lie?

 

Is anyone who took part in it left alive to answer for it?

 

~Bang

[Predicto]

I suspect that a lot of the emotional problem comes from the use of the word "genocide."

 

Turkey might admit there were massacres, might admit there was ethnic cleansing, horrible killings, whatever, but when you use the word Genocide you have entered Nazi territory.  

 

The Nazis are the gold standard for evil, and and emotionally NO ONE will accept a characterization of their nation or ethnicity that puts it in the same category as the Nazis.  Period.  

[Larry]

The Nazis are the gold standard for evil, and and emotionally NO ONE will accept a characterization of their nation or ethnicity that puts it in the same category as the Nazis.  Period.

I dunno.

How does the US feel about using the term "genocide", in relation to the Natives?

I'd suspect that, while not everybody would be OK with that label, I'd suspect a good chunk will grudgingly admit that there's some validity to it.

[zoony]

Never heard of this before a few minutes ago, now I'm outraged, and I will go back to not caring in a few minutes

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

I know a third generation American of Serbian descent who is sure that the Serbians have always been the victims in every conflict. Human nature includes a lot of tribalism.

Yeah the poor, helpless Serbs so suffered during WWI. Why in the world were they even brought into it?

But speaking of Americans still feeling something for their ancestors. My mom is majority Croat. They came over here like 1890-1900. Their culture has absolutely nothing to do with me. That said was watching an episode of "Nazi Collaborators" a few weeks back. It was about Croatian Nazi collaborators and what they were doing to Jews and various other folks. It was so disgusting, so inhumane, so just ****ing...goddamn, Heinrich ****ing Himmler, head of the SS, had to visit Croatia and tell them to chill the **** out. Think about that.

But yeah, even though I feel no real connection to Croatia, I can't lie, for whatever reason, I felt so embarrassed and ashamed watching that. Couldn't even finish it.

[88Comrade2000]

I dunno.

How does the US feel about using the term "genocide", in relation to the Natives?

I'd suspect that, while not everybody would be OK with that label, I'd suspect a good chunk will grudgingly admit that there's some validity to it.

What, you mean we killed all those Indians that use to live here?

 

Noone will want to admit the atrocities committed by their ancestors.  If there is ever some semblance of peace in the areas now controlled by ISIS; you think their future descendants will owe to the genocide they are committing now?

 

What about what happened in Africa in the 90's.

[visionary]

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2015/04/21/263961/white-house-confirms-it-wont-call.html

White House confirms it won’t call Armenian expulsion ‘genocide’

 

White House officials on Tuesday told representatives of Armenian advocacy groups that the Obama administration once again will avoid the word “genocide” to describe the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Armenians when they were forcibly deported from what is now Turkey during World War I.

 

Denis McDonough, the White House chief of staff, and Ben Rhodes, the deputy national security adviser for strategic communications, met with the representatives for an hour at the White House and discussed the centennial commemoration of the deaths and deportations that will be held Friday in Yerevan, Armenia’s capital.

 

“They discussed the significance of this occasion for honoring the 1.5 million lives extinguished during that horrific period, and welcomed the principled advocacy of the Armenian American community on behalf of justice,” a White House statement about the meeting said. “They pledged that the United States will use the occasion to urge a full, frank, and just acknowledgment of the facts that we believe is in the interest of all parties.”

 

But the officials said the White House will not use the word genocide to describe what took place.

 

Aram Hamparian, the executive director of the Armenian National Committee of America, who was at the meeting, described himself as disappointed. He said that despite recent White House statements indicating that the word genocide would not be mentioned in U.S. statements on the commemoration, he’d hoped recent developments might change U.S. policy. He cited an April 12 statement by Pope Francis and recent statements from the German government and the European Parliament referring to the Armenian expulsion and massacres as genocide.

 

“We thought this would be a moment for the United States to become one of the nations on the right side of history,” he said.

 

Hamparian said the White House officials cited “regional priorities” for the decision. Turkey has long opposed labeling the Armenian exodus and deaths as genocide.

 

Rep. Adm Schiff, D-Calif., also criticized the White House decision.

 

“I’m deeply disappointed that the president, once again, will fail to properly describe the extermination of 1.5 million Armenians from 1915 to 1923 for what it was – genocide,” he said in a statement. “How long must the victims and their families wait before our nation has the courage to confront Turkey with the truth about the murderous past of the Ottoman Empire?”