Discussions on a heavily criticized OL

[PlayAction]

I don't think the OL is as bad as people say it is. A lot of the problem falls on the QB holding the ball for too long. Gruden calling 50 pass plays doesn't help. The Skins are running team.

The Skins are a running team that can't run the ball.

[RedskinsInFebruary]

My problem is I think we've tried to cheat and scrimp on OL acquisition for so many many years, I think all but Trent are currently really awful, *plus* I'm one of those people who believes no team will get to the upper echelons without a dominant OL.  I'm thus not anywhere near comfortable with "well they're not that bad," even if I agreed with that assessment.

 

What really bugs me is the Cowboys get the value of OL when we don't.  Grrrrrr!

[RedBeast]

I think our jealousy of the Cowboys line somewhat influences our desire to use first round picks...to some minute degree.

[War Paint]

I think Callahan had a lot to do with the success of the Cowboys' line.

[RedBeast]

I think Callahan had a lot to do with the success of the Cowboys' line.

I agree but to make great food a chef needs good fresh ingredients...not truffles, but not soft turnips either. Its important to realize that Callahan also had some good product to work with. There is no such thing as stone soup and in football we can't turn a lemon into all pro lemonade.

I believe that having Callahan will definitely help our OL. Great hire IMO.

[Airyx]

I don't give much credence to PFF. The O-line is bad. Like, really bad.

 

You SHOULD give credence to PFF. They look at every snap with All-22, and produce unbiased scores for all sorts of detailed metrics. In other words, they are evaluating 100% of the available data.

 

If you have only watched the team on TV, you are making your judgement based on about 10% of the information.

 

As coaches say, Highlights lie, TV deceives, and only tape can tell the truth.

The LT is good

The RT is bad.

The guards are average

The Center makes bad calls and adjustments that make the whole line worse

[RandyHolt]

There's a guy I just drafted in our ES mock for Dallas that I really hope is on Mac's radar for our line re-build. 

 

Day 1 starting caliber center right now IMHO and someone with extensive knowledge and experience of playing in all the other 4 OL slots. Perfect early day 3 addition for this football team. 

 

http://es.redskins.com/topic/387204-2015-es-gms-mock-draft-met/?p=10183790

 

Hail. 

Sign me up.

I can't help but think at least 2 picks will be for the OL, maybe 3.

 

Getting Callahan should be an improvement. I am not sure Foerster ever graduated a pick into a starter. Unfortunately some holdover(s) from the previous regime are going to have to go cough LeRib.

[Dark Acre]

<<But you can't give up on 3rd round picks after 1 year.  Or you'll never be able to "build through the draft.">>  They should've been 4th round picks -- with Long a 5th.

[Taylor703]

You SHOULD give credence to PFF. They look at every snap with All-22, and produce unbiased scores for all sorts of detailed metrics. In other words, they are evaluating 100% of the available data.

If you have only watched the team on TV, you are making your judgement based on about 10% of the information.

As coaches say, Highlights lie, TV deceives, and only tape can tell the truth.

The LT is good

The RT is bad.

The guards are average

The Center makes bad calls and adjustments that make the whole line worse

When did they start using All-22? I thought their grades were released before the All-22 was made available for the week?

[MartinC]

I think Callahan had a lot to do with the success of the Cowboys' line.

 

That and investing 3 first round draft picks in that area.

[War Paint]

That and investing 3 first round draft picks in that area.

Again, their C was projected by most scouts like Kiper, Mayock, and several other scouts as being a mid-round pick.  Dallas was heavily criticized for taking him in the 1st round, which was the 31st pick, so it was a borderline 2nd round pick.  I already explained this in a previous post. So really, the only two players on their oline with the consensus of having 1st round talent at the time they were drafted were Smith and Martin.  Plus, they had two undrafted FAs on that line too (although Parnell is now gone, so Free, a 4th round pick is presumed the starter at RT).

[carex]

But you can't give up on 3rd round picks after 1 year.  Or you'll never be able to "build through the draft."

 

no you can't.  But the way the Redskins  invested in FA this year, and drafted last year the only really logical picks are in the same areas they drafted early last year

[MartinC]

Again, their C was projected by most scouts like Kiper, Mayock, and several other scouts as being a mid-round pick.  Dallas was heavily criticized for taking him in the 1st round, which was the 31st pick, so it was a borderline 2nd round pick.  I already explained this in a previous post. So really, the only two players on their oline with the consensus of having 1st round talent at the time they were drafted were Smith and Martin.  Plus, they had two undrafted FAs on that line too (although Parnell is now gone, so Free, a 4th round pick is presumed the starter at RT).

 

What Mel Kiper projects someone as does not really matter - where they get picked and how they then play matters. 

 

Travis Fredrick was picked in the first round - he made the All Rookie team and then last year made the Pro Bowl so he's certainly played like a first rounder. Maybe Dallas knows something Kiper doesnt.

 

Rationalize it anyway you want - Dallas has invested 3 1st round picks in their line.

[War Paint]

What Mel Kiper projects someone as does not really matter - where they get picked and how they then play matters. 

 

Travis Fredrick was picked in the first round - he made the All Rookie team and then last year made the Pro Bowl so he's certainly played like a first rounder. Maybe Dallas knows something Kiper doesnt.

 

Rationalize it anyway you want - Dallas has invested 3 1st round picks in their line.

It wasn't just Kiper.  It was numerous scouts.  Skip Bayless (not a scout) said that numerous teams didn't even have Frederick on their draft board.  Yes, Frederick worked out, but Dallas most likely could've had him in the 2nd round, or even the 3rd or 4th and taken a defensive player in the 1st. 

 

But my whole point is that I think Callahan had a lot to do with the success of the Cowboys line.   I said "a lot", not  everything to do with it.  Obviously you have to have some capable bodies there to compete.

[Taylor703]

It wasn't just Kiper. It was numerous scouts. Skip Bayless (not a scout) said that numerous teams didn't even have Frederick on their draft board. Yes, Frederick worked out, but Dallas most likely could've had him in the 2nd round, or even the 3rd or 4th and taken a defensive player in the 1st.

But my whole point is that I think Callahan had a lot to do with the success of the Cowboys line. I said "a lot", not everything to do with it. Obviously you have to have some capable bodies there to compete.

How would Skip Bayless know what teams had on their draft board?

[SkinsTillIDie]

You SHOULD give credence to PFF. They look at every snap with All-22, and produce unbiased scores for all sorts of detailed metrics. In other words, they are evaluating 100% of the available data.

 

If you have only watched the team on TV, you are making your judgement based on about 10% of the information.

 

As coaches say, Highlights lie, TV deceives, and only tape can tell the truth.

The LT is good

The RT is bad.

The guards are average

The Center makes bad calls and adjustments that make the whole line worse

 

Because you know that from PFF / watching the All-22.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

Most had Frederick projected to go in the 2nd round.

[War Paint]

Kiper said Frederick was the biggest reach in the draft.  Mayock had him with a 3rd round grade.  Some reports had him as 3rd round grade with the possibility of being taken in the 2nd.  Maybe some of you guys didn't read the press the day after the draft, but Dallas was getting clowned by a lot of press for that pick.

 

Even Frederick was surprised when he was drafted.

http://espn.go.com/blog/dallas/cowboys/post/_/id/4707820/travis-frederick-wasnt-sure-if-he-was-a-first-round-pick
 

Travis Frederick surprised at selection

 

IRVING, Texas -- One of the more interesting moments from the first round of Thursday night's draft was the Dallas Cowboys' pick, center Travis Frederick, saying he was surprised to get selected at No. 31.

The Cowboys had a second-round grade on Frederick, but he was the 22nd player ranked on their board. Dallas had 19 players with first-round grades.

"A little surprised," Frederick said. "I thought that I was going to probably fit somewhere in the second round, but Dallas had showed a lot of interest in me throughout the process. I knew that they definitely needed a little bit of help inside and were looking to upgrade that. I think that I'm going to fit in pretty well down there."

Frederick didn't have the fastest 40 (5.58) or the strongest bench press (225 pounds 21 times), but he noted those numbers don't give a true indication of his strength.

"I wasn't too concerned with that," he said. "I think there's different reasons for different things happening like the stuff of how my bench (press) goes. I think that's something Wisconsin is not known for doing well at is the reps because we've always been trained to do low reps, high intensity. So we do single reps or double reps and I do very well on those areas."

 

 

The whole point with this is that you don't have to spend 1st round picks to get a line like the Cowboys have.   I think you can find Frederick level talent in the mid-rounds.  Maybe I'm giving Callahan too much praise, but I really do think he provided a system that brought the best out of the players he had.

 

If we drafted Alfred Morris in the 2nd round, most of us and the scouts would've been critical about reaching for him.  Now that he's played at a high level, nobody would question the use of a 2nd round pick on him but that still wouldn't mean you have to use high picks like 2nd rounders to find a version of Morris.  It still wouldn't make the pick a wise pick.

 

With all that said, if we do draft a few olinemen, I have no problem with that.  I expect us to draft some.  I'm simply dispelling the myth that you have to dump several 1st round picks on olinemen in hopes to have a line comparable to the Cowboys, especially when half their line last season during their run was built with undrafted FAs. 

[PlayAction]

After a decade and a half of bad drafts I think all fans are less concerned about reach and more interested in getting players that will be successful and stay with the Skins. When you think about all of the first and second round picks that the Skins have used over the years how many resulted in players that were successful over the long-term? Two are still on the team and hopefully will be resigned - Ryan Kerrigan and Trent Williams. But I can't think of another since Sean Taylor. That's a really long drought.

[Silvernon]

Why do we always disregard Trent Williams? This guy's next infraction was a year suspension, and he's become a team captain and arguably the best LT in the league. He had his own work ethic issues and he's proved doubters wrong. Moses is one of those physically gifted guys, maybe Trent is the guy who gets him going. 

Long and Moses on the right side. It's going to drive people nuts, but that'll be it for changes from last year. 

[carex]

I think with a Lisfranc injury fans should be prepared for Moses to open the season on the PUP list.

[Airyx]

Because you know that from PFF / watching the All-22.

 

From looking at the All-22, from comments made by Trent, and from comments made by a scout.

 

Cutting Will Montgomery was a big mistake.

At the time that he was cut, he was the team's 2nd highest rated lineman (according to PFF).

He played quite well as Peyton Manning's center in Denver last season.

His value was more than just his individual blocking ability, but his ability to make sure the other four guys knew what was going on.

 

Lich is not as good as a blocker, and not as good at recognizing what the defense is doing and calling out adjustments. The end result is an across the board downgrade in the O-Line's effectiveness.

 

I think the hiring of the new O-Line coach is an attempt to compensate for that mistake. Doug Free was looking like a total bust in Dallas until he started working with Coach Bill. Hopefully he can work some of that magic with Long and Moses. By the way, the Cowboys countered, and tried to keep Coach Bill from leaving, but he refused.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

That and investing 3 first round draft picks in that area.

 

Some very football savvy Texan Cowboys fans I know and respect weren't in the least bit sorry to see Callahan, who they believe to be on the downside of his career, leave. 

 

So as happy as I am to upgrade from the previous chump, I aren't nearly as ecstatic as a lot on here about him. 

 

The Dallas fans have given me pause. 

 

Hail. 

[pjfootballer]

Callahan wasn't on the downside as some Cowpuke fans might want to think. The offensive line was great. Callahan coached pissed off at the organization for reducing his role. It wasn't that he was not coaching well as much as it he may not have had a lot to do. Their "big" loss and our "big" gain as far as I'm concerned.

[Burgold]

Callahan wasn't on the downside as some Cowpuke fans might want to think. The offensive line was great. Callahan coached pissed off at the organization for reducing his role. It wasn't that he was not coaching well as much as it he may not have had a lot to do. Their "big" loss and our "big" gain as far as I'm concerned.

Yeah, all year every sportscast praised the Cowboy's line and how well it was playing. Hell, there were multiple games I heard analysts praising the Cowboy's line even when they weren't coving the Cowboys.  It was the talk of the league.

 

To now come out and say that the o line coach has lost it sounds like a lot of sour grapes. He may not be an OC anymore, but at least last year he was a heck of a good o-line coach.