Carroll or Schneider - What lessons should the Skins take from yesterday.

[Riggo-toni]

A Broncos team without Terrell Davis gets humiliated in the Super Bowl despite having a future HOF QB...it was like the 80s all over again. Seattle's defense was crushing, despite playing very vanilla schemes. No exotic blitzes or camouflaged coverages, just your plain basic ass-whoopin.

Pete Carroll is (rightly) getting all kinds of accolades, but what about the man who drafted Russell Wilson in the 3rd, Sherman in the 5th, Maxwell in the 6th. As Chris Collinsworth noted, these weren't just solid role players he was finding in the late rounds; these guys are pro-bowlers. Is Pete Carroll the greatest developer of talent in the NFL, or is Schneider the best GM since Ron Wolf? Of course, it's a combination of both - that's the easy answer; but take a look at Carroll's tenure with the Pats. His team started off well, but every year was less successful than the preceding one, until he was finally replaced by Belichik. The exact opposite has occurred in Seattle. Every year the team has gotten better, and they have the youngest roster ever to win the SB.

Schneider's magic reminds me a lot of Beathard. Not only was Beathard the best ever at finding late round gems, but he had an intuitive sense for finding the perfect players for his coach's scheme, whether that coach was Hank Stram, Don Shula, Gibbs, or Bobby Ross. Snyder has consistently obsessed over finding the right coach, while finding the best GM hasn't even shown up on his radar. He's alternated between giving his coach absolute control over personnel, and placing personnel in the hands of those with bad track records (Cerrato, and now Allen). Apparently, Beathard never existed, and Gibbs could've won multiple Superbowls even if we hadn't drafted Monk,Manley,Green,Rypien,Mann,Grimm,Timmy Smith,May,Jacoby (UDFA), et al. Until finding the best GM becomes Snyder's top, utmost, highest priority, don't expect the Skins to be truly competitive anytime soon. And don't pretend that Campbell, Brown and Allen are the answer. Instead, maybe we should be concered as to why the hyper~tyrannical Shamahan actually drafted better in Denver with the minions he had there than with the leftovers we have here.

[SkinsHokieFan]

Schnieder's success (and Baalke in San Fran) actually give me MORE hope that Brown/Campbell could be the answer, seeing that both Schneider and Baalke (along with Eric DeCosta) were Redskins scouts here under Marty.

 

Perhaps the scouting talent has always been here but simply not prioritized? That is my hope under the new structure that is in place.

[Boss_Hogg]

Adderall, adderall, and more adderall. Oh and find away to perfect the art of pass interference.

 

And if one of your players gets caught with a PED, find a lame technicality so he get's away without punishment.

 

Then have said player go on social media and brag about how he beat the system.

 

Winning

 

 

[JdoubleU]

Slet's be clear...the Seattle GM was the Skins' VP of player personnel, Snyder lets him walk and keeps...Vinny Cerrato!

[evmiii]

My lesson is regarding youth, you better take advantage of your team when your stars are in their rookie contracts before you have to spend all your cash on one or two stars. Salary cap rules are going to put even a greater value on talent evaluations and drafting to keep your secondary talent up to par. This has not recently been one of the Redskins' strength. We have a young core to build around, we just need to build it smartly. Do this well and we can win some games, if not we all know the results.

Never been a Pete Carroll fan, but his players sure seem to want to play for him. I think Gruden will have a similar impact on our team (in clear contrast to where we have recently been). HTTR!

[Warhead36]

My lesson is regarding youth, you better take advantage of your team when your stars are in their rookie contracts before you have to spend all your cash on one or two stars. Salary cap rules are going to put even a greater value on talent evaluations and drafting to keep your secondary talent up to par. This has not recently been one of the Redskins' strength. We have a young core to build around, we just need to build it smartly. Do this well and we can win some games, if not we all know the results.

Never been a Pete Carroll fan, but his players sure seem to want to play for him. I think Gruden will have a similar impact on our team (in clear contrast to where we have recently been). HTTR!

Well put.

 

The key is to build primarily thru the draft. Don't spend on FAs unless it's to get that one guy to get over the hump(like Harvin)or if it's a really good value buy.

 

Ideally your core players, your best players, will all be guys you drafted and developed.

[Riggo#44]

Slet's be clear...the Seattle GM was the Skins' VP of player personnel, Snyder lets him walk and keeps...Vinny Cerrato!

 

And the hits of the Cerrato era just keep on coming!

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

I think we need a lot of good football players who are good at playing football.

[TimmySmith]

Special teams can win games, so it's wise to get players out there who want to make plays.

 

You want your QB to run the offense, not be the offense, and you need him to understand the difference between the two.

 

Big, physical corners are a necessity.

[pjfootballer]

None.  As I've said time and again over the years, why do I want the Redskins fans want to build their team like other teams?  You can argue that their way is working, but what works for them, may not work for us.  Did it work in 1994 when Norv Turner tried to build us into the Dallass Cowboys with the triplettes?  Did it work when Spurrier tried to build us into the Washington Gators?

 

Build the team the "Redskin Way."  What that is, we don't know at this point.  But trying to do things the Patriot, Steeler, Packer or Seahawk way, is not the way to go.  People forget that before Bill Belicheck and Tom Brady showed up, there was no "Patriot Way."  They had lucked into going to two SBs and got their doors blown off in each of them and their franchise was a disaster in every which way.  They were constantly at the top of the draft, they couldn't sell out games, their stadium (Sullivan Stadium) looked like a high school field and they changed owners several times before Kraft bought the team.  In other words, no one wanted the team.

 

Green Bay went almost 25 years with suckage after the Lombardi days until they found Favre and now Rodgers.  One of the most consistant franchises, Pittsburgh, went 15 years after their last SB win, before Cowher finally took them to one, then took several years after that to win one.  Take a look at their roster now.  Old, injured and wore out.  Sounds familiar, kind of like ours a few years ago.

 

So, no, I don't want to do things like the Shehawks do.  Let's build out own legacy, the Redskin way.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

the Redskin way.

 

Whatever the hell that may be!

[planter]

Slet's be clear...the Seattle GM was the Skins' VP of player personnel, Snyder lets him walk and keeps...Vinny Cerrato!

OMG! Tell me this is not true.

[TheLongshot]

How about actually having a coaching staff that can develop young players?  How many of the young players have we brought in have actually seen notable improvement from year to year?  There haven't been many.  Most of the ones that have been good started out that way.  Meanwhile, we've drafted a lot of young players who just haven't progressed much from where they were as rookies.

 

It also doesn't help we didn't draft good special teams players.  How do you go through an entire draft not picking players who can play special teams?

 

The whole thing yesterday puts into focus of how much Shanahan pissed away things here.  They can have all the excuses they want, but it isn't like Seattle did everything perfectly either.  They traded for Charlie Whitehurst, signed Matt Flynn, blew a high 1st round pick, and Percy Harvin barely played this year after giving up so much.  Yet, in a strong division, they built a championship-caliber team.  Not saying we could have replicated it, but we should be a lot closer to being a competitive team after 4 years.  Now we are looking at a complete overall of the defensive personnel and are still looking for consistency on offense.

Whatever the hell that may be!

 

Given the lack of organizational consistency, we really don't know what that is anymore.  Certainly it isn't the Gibbs way, since that didn't work.

 

As I kinda imply above, tho, it isn't just about what they did, but what we didn't do, and that in four years they built a championship team, while in 4 years, Shanahan built pretty much nothing.

[pjfootballer]

Whatever the hell that may be!

 Like I said in my post, I don't think we have figured that out as of yet (obviously), but I'd like to see us win a SB with whatever way we figure it out.

[Mursilis]

To me, the big lesson that stands out from the Seahawks is how much they've gone against the superstar focus of so many other teams.  The Broncos probably fielded more future HOF players last night, but Seattle's talent was much more evenly spread out.  No part of that team really had to carry any other part of it.  This is why I'm beginning to wonder if the trade for RG3 wasn't a huge mistake.  RG3 will hopefully become a franchise QB, but will the picks given up prevent this team from putting other talent around him? 

[celticsalmon]

Replace Haslett, now!

[TheLongshot]

To me, the big lesson that stands out from the Seahawks is how much they've gone against the superstar focus of so many other teams.  The Broncos probably fielded more future HOF players last night, but Seattle's talent was much more evenly spread out.  No part of that team really had to carry any other part of it.  This is why I'm beginning to wonder if the trade for RG3 wasn't a huge mistake.  RG3 will hopefully become a franchise QB, but will the picks given up prevent this team from putting other talent around him? 

 

The funny thing about the Seattle example is that they are doing it without high picks.  As pointed out elsewhere, there are only 2 first round picks on that defense.  Sherman was a 5th round pick.  So was Cam Chancellor.  The MVP of the game, Malcolm Smith, was a 7th round pick.  So far, we aren't developing many of those players.

[The Robert Griffin Experience]

Lesson 1: Timing/rhythm offenses can't really beat elite defenses in the playoffs. If I'm Jay Gruden, I design an offense that fully incorporates RGIII's playmaking ability both as a runner and passer. When things go bad, he needs the opportunity to make the kind of plays that he made at Baylor with both his arm and legs.

 

Who's the last wholly immobile QB to win it all? Even Eli and Brees can move.

 

Lesson 2: A good DL will generally beat a good OL, because good OLs are built more on cohesion and strategy than being able to physically dominate guys. The good news is that we have the best LT in football and he's only getting better. In general, it might be better to get guys who might be raw or unpolished but can simply bully guys up front. .

 

Lesson 3: Peyton Manning is the ultimate system quarterback. That is, when his system is working, he's unbeatable, but when his system gets disrupted - early last decade against New England, 2005 against Denver, and now against Seattle, he's very, very mortal. And against elite defenses, his system WILL get disrupted.

 

If my goal is to win it all, I'd rather have a decade plus of a healthy RGIII than Peyton Manning, because Peyton's biggest weakness is RGIII's greatest strength, which is the ability to make something out of nothing. Say what you want about Flacco, but he has that same talent too, to make plays where you wouldn't think a play is there, same thing with Roethlisberger. There's a reason he's been so statistically proficient yet has won only 1 ring, these timing offenses get disrupted way too easy and they fall apart.

 

4: You really only need one "strength" of the D in terms of talent. Seattle has a crazy secondary but the rest of their D is only above average. And they really don't have to outscheme guys, they just need to be well coached and fundamentally sound.

[RichmondRedskin88]

I learned illegal substances wins championships.  No wonder young athletes go down that road.

[War Paint]

I think we need a lot of good football players who are good at playing football.

Every team in the NFL has talent.  Yes, there are times when upgrades are needed, but every player, on every team, generally come from the same pool of players.  It's what the organization and what the coaches do with these players that matter.  Heck, Brandon Merriweather would probably be considered an excellent player if he was on Seattle's defense.  Several of our players on defense would thrive and prosper with Seattle. 

[Boss_Hogg]

Schnieder's success (and Baalke in San Fran) actually give me MORE hope that Brown/Campbell could be the answer, seeing that both Schneider and Baalke (along with Eric DeCosta) were Redskins scouts here under Marty.

 

Perhaps the scouting talent has always been here but simply not prioritized? That is my hope under the new structure that is in place.

 

DeCosta was never employed by the Redskins. He had a training camp internship in 1995 under Norval. He joined the Ravens in 1996 and never looked back.

[TheLongshot]

It is also worth noting that Seattle invested highly in the OL in the draft.  Three of their starting five were first or second round picks.  (The other two are a 7th round pick, and a guy they signed off of GB's practice squad.)

[The Robert Griffin Experience]

Never employed, but he was here in the building, granted it wasn't under the Snyder regime.

[DogofWar1]

The problem with taking many lessons from Seattle is that frankly, their team is an aberration.

 

How often do teams in the modern NFL will have a franchise QB on a deal that only costs them 500K a year, and many other high level offensive and defensive starters who are all on rookie deals, all at the same time?

 

I mean, Sherman, arguably the best corner in the game, is on a 2.2M deal.  Not 2.2M per year deal, but a 2.2M deal TOTAL!

 

Walter Thurmond, rookie deal.  Earl Thomas, one of the best safeties in the league this year, in a on 5M/Y deal, while his value is probably 3M more than that.  Brandon Browner was on a 1Y/750K deal before getting kicked out.  Bobby Wagner, Bruce Irvin, and Malcolm Smith (SB MVP) are all on rookie deals.

 

The lesson is, draft perfectly so you have 80% of your starters on cheap rookie deals, and make sure it's in that 3-4 year window when your QB is on a cheap rookie deal too.  Surprisingly, few teams pull that off with any consistency.  SF49ers are actually the closest thing to them.  It must be something in the water out west.

 

Anyways, Seattle is almost certainly unsustainable.  Russell Wilson alone is 15M more dollars out of their hands every year once his rookie deal is up.  Sherman is another 10M.  Thomas is probably another 3M.  Their linebacker corp is a whole bunch of $s, etc. etc.

 

But good for them, they managed to hit what amounted to a pin-head sized bullseye as far as team construction goes.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

The interesting thing in Seattle is what is going to happen when it is time to pay these dudes. I'm sure they will lock up Wilson. I'm sure they will lock up Sherman. But they aren't going to be able to pay market price for all their young stars.