Momma There Goes That Man Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 57 minutes ago, PeterMP said: Kobe ≈ Clyde Drexler just in a weaker era of the NBA with better players/coaches around him. Kobe can be fairly criticized without being ridiculous and this is ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 I believe Kobe is in the 10-15 all time range with Moses, Wilt, Dirk, and Hakeem. Behind them I would put Dr J, Logo, KG, Admiral, and Mailman. He is significantly more accomplished than Clyde Drexler, who I would put in the 30s on the All Time list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Sinister Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 25 minutes ago, TryTheBeal! said: Drexler was pretty damn awesome. Wonder what he could’ve done with a stud like Andrew Bynum on his squad. Could've balled with Comrade Sabonis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 (edited) 54 minutes ago, Momma There Goes That Man said: Kobe can be fairly criticized without being ridiculous and this is ridiculous. I think people forget how good Clyde was in his prime. Clyde was easily the best player on a team that made two finals and lost to teams that are considered dynasties today that had multiple HOF players. There was nobody else even close to being a HOF player on that team (the likes of Terry Porter and Kevin Duckworth made 2 all star games (a young Cliff Robinson who only ever made one All Star game was probably really the 2nd best player on that team)). Taking teams to multiple finals with a bunch of guys that are border line All Stars and a coach that doesn't really have much success beyond that stretch isn't something that happens very much. Rick Adelman only has a winning playoff percentage because of those Portland teams. You put another HOF caliber player on those Portland teams and them and Drexler are remember differently. Kobe's high WS/48 minutes is 0.224 and he averaged 0.170 over his career. Drexlers' high is 0.223 and his average is 0.173. Kobe was probably the better player because he was a better defender, but it is much close than many people realize. 35 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said: I believe Kobe is in the 10-15 all time range with Moses, Wilt, Dirk, and Hakeem. Behind them I would put Dr J, Logo, KG, Admiral, and Mailman. He is significantly more accomplished than Clyde Drexler, who I would put in the 30s on the All Time list. Where do you put the players from the Piston championship teams? (Thomas, Dumars, and Billups) Edited July 31, 2018 by PeterMP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 Looking back on LeBron's career achievements, one of the things that impresses me the most is that he's made the AS game every year of his career except his rookie season. To never have a down year is ridiculous. He's never even played less than 35.6 MPG in a season before. He is the most reliably great player I've ever seen. Even Jordan got hurt and missed a year. Also he got burnt out and skipped two seasons of his prime. You can set your watch to LeBron's career. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TradeTheBeal! Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 18 minutes ago, Mr. Sinister said: Could've balled with Comrade Sabonis. Young Arvidas would’ve beasted in this league. What might’ve been... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 6 minutes ago, PeterMP said: Where do you put the players from the Piston championship teams? (Thomas, Dumars, and Billups) Outside of the top 50 truth be told. Those were great teams but they were much greater than the sum of their parts. Of that group I would probably put Billups highest because his playoff achievements are outstanding, but a lot of credit for what he was able to accomplish in the postseason came from him playing on such strong teams in Detroit. Being such a journeyman and late bloomer also hurts his ranking in my eyes. I rank Zeke much lower than most. To me, he's one of the most overrated players in NBA history. The Iverson of the 80s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Sinister Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 I think if Arvidas Sabonis comes over earlier from the Soviet Union, Clyde Drexler would be thought of in higher regard. Magic, Isaiah, and Jordan would have less hardware today Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RonArtest15 Posted July 31, 2018 Author Share Posted July 31, 2018 12 hours ago, TryTheBeal! said: Kobe is one of the GOATs. Easily top 5. Top 5, what? SG, sure... All-time? Pfffftttt.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lombardi's_kid_brother Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 I think Isiah is probably top 25 though I don't have an actual list because I'm not a crazy person, When I think about what I want in a point guard, he's still the prototype. Great in the halfcourt. Great on the break. Knew where everyone liked the ball. Knew when to get them the ball. And in crunch time, could get his shot at the rim or in space any time he wanted. He was also a prick who would fight anyone in the league. The only knock against him was that he wasn't a great shooter, but that wasn't an era where that was necessarily expected. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lombardi's_kid_brother Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 2 hours ago, TryTheBeal! said: Magic and Bird, and many others, are all-time greats. Kobe’s career accomplishments are superior to theirs, however. You can always reason with a Kobe true believer. You can also reason with a chair for the good it will do you. I'm honestly not sure Kobe is one of the 5-all time greatest Lakers. Kareem, Wilt, Magic, West, Shaq, and Kobe in some order where the top three are what I wrote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 Wilt has become overrated. His individual numbers are insane but he was a loser and underachiever who couldn't beat Russell. I put Kobe on the same tier as him and would not protest people putting Kobe ahead of Wilt. I put Kobe ahead of West too because, despite his individual greatness, and despite playing with the greatest forward in NBA history until Rick Barry came along, he couldn't beat Russell either. Kobe led two teams to championships and sidekicked another three title teams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 1 hour ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said: When I think about what I want in a point guard, he's still the prototype. Great in the halfcourt. Great on the break. Knew where everyone liked the ball. Knew when to get them the ball. And in crunch time, could get his shot at the rim or in space any time he wanted. He was also a prick who would fight anyone in the league. His skills were excellent but his career achievements weren't that impressive. He had a short prime that was over by the time he was 26 and, during it, the Pistons weren't very good. Then he fell off a whole bunch as his team got better and he did some coattail riding to two championships in a transition period between better dynasties led by better players. Him not being able to make it work with Adrian Dantley also probably cost them the 87-88 championship, they were better than that LA team. He's an All Timer whose legacy would be destroyed if you dropped him in this era. He benefited a great deal from playing in an awful PG era and there are probably only three seasons of his career where, if he were playing today, he'd have been considered a top five PG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 10 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said: Wilt has become overrated. His individual numbers are insane but he was a loser and underachiever who couldn't beat Russell. I put Kobe on the same tier as him and would not protest people putting Kobe ahead of Wilt. I put Kobe ahead of West too because, despite his individual greatness, and despite playing with the greatest forward in NBA history until Rick Barry came along, he couldn't beat Russell either. Kobe led two teams to championships and sidekicked another three title teams. They used to play one-on-one for the NBA championship? (I generally don't worry about people that I didn't see play, but the idea that Wilt has BECOME over rated is laughable.) Wilt was 4 time MVP and a 7X all NBA first team player. The debate was always Russell or Wilt when they were playing. https://elearning.shisu.edu.cn/pluginfile.php/71578/mod_folder/content/0/Basketball and Philosophy - Jerry L. Walls%2C Gregory Bassham%2C eds.pdf?forcedownload=1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 18 minutes ago, PeterMP said: They used to play one-on-one for the NBA championship? At the end of the day, winning a championship is the critical and zero sum achievement and Kobe was right when he said that, no matter what, you just have to find a way to get it done. Kobe did that five times, and on two of those teams he was the leader. Kobe is a true competitor. You can see it in the way he became an animal in the postseason and elevated his game in almost every way. People always make excuses for Wilt. It's not like he was toiling away on the kind of Cincinnati teams that Oscar played on. Wilt was a fascinating man who might have been the most naturally talented athlete and player in the history of the sport, but I do not think he loved basketball and dedicated himself to winning anywhere near as much as the other All-Timers. He isn't in Kobe's league as a competitor. Bill Russell feasted on Wilt's softness for ring after ring. Anyways, how did I get stuck being the one to defend Kobe? I am a Kobe critic, not a Kobe fan. But we should be fair when criticizing him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 (edited) 51 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said: At the end of the day, winning a championship is the critical and zero sum achievement and Kobe was right when he said that, no matter what, you just have to find a way to get it done. Kobe did that five times, and on two of those teams he was the leader. Kobe is a true competitor. You can see it in the way he became an animal in the postseason and elevated his game in almost every way. People always make excuses for Wilt. It's not like he was toiling away on the kind of Cincinnati teams that Oscar played on. Wilt was a fascinating man who might have been the most naturally talented athlete and player in the history of the sport, but I do not think he loved basketball and dedicated himself to winning anywhere near as much as the other All-Timers. He isn't in Kobe's league as a competitor. Bill Russell feasted on Wilt's softness for ring after ring. Anyways, how did I get stuck being the one to defend Kobe? I am a Kobe critic, not a Kobe fan. But we should be fair when criticizing him. The "you just have find a way" thing is the stupidest thing I ever heard. Kobe didn't find away more years that he played than the years he did. I have no idea of how Kobe elevated his game in almost every way. The stats look pretty much the same to his career averages (and that's being generous because the years at the end of his career pulled down his averages. I suspect by looking a possessions and comparing year-to-year, you'd find the stats at least support regression in Kobe's game in the playoffs. I can't speak to Chamberlain because they didn't track possessions.) And his teams regularly made the playoffs and went further into the playoffs than Robertson's. Or maybe Russell feasted on playing on a better team? (Again, I don't generally talk about people that I didn't see, but this idea of Wilt being a loser or somehow being soft is the idea that has become more popular. Sitting in 1970, nobody doubted the Celtics were the better team most of those years and that the fact that Wilt got his teams as far as he did was an an accomplishment. Wilt was the better offensive player, but Russell was the better defender that played on the better team. I'm not going to tell you that Wilt was the better player than Russell, but your reasons for saying that Russell was better are inventions of the last 20 years thanks mostly to Bill Simmons.) Edited July 31, 2018 by PeterMP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 I don't think Kobe is a top 5 player, but he's a top 2 shooting guard. I have 1-MJ 2-Kobe. Offense is common among the all time greats but great aggressive defense is less common. It's not about stats. I watched Kobe put the clamps on other star players, and there just aren't many star players that have ever been able or willing to do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 I agree that Kobe is the second greatest 2 guard in NBA history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 Taking stock of what each were able to do this offseason, has OKC replaced Houston as the second best team in the NBA now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, Destino said: I don't think Kobe is a top 5 player, but he's a top 2 shooting guard. I have 1-MJ 2-Kobe. Offense is common among the all time greats but great aggressive defense is less common. It's not about stats. I watched Kobe put the clamps on other star players, and there just aren't many star players that have ever been able or willing to do that. First, I'd generally warn against judging older players based on the post-1990s idea of defense. People look at that era and thing that people didn't play defense, but in reality in many cases it was what the rule allowed. I said before, that I thought Kobe was better than Clyde because of defense. The other 2 people that I've seen play that I think you'd have to consider are Wade and Sidney Moncrief (people always have an issue with this, but he was a good offensive player and probably the best defensive 2 guard of all time (2 time DPOY even though the award was created during his career and was essentially created for him)). Edited July 31, 2018 by PeterMP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, stevemcqueen1 said: Taking stock of what each were able to do this offseason, has OKC replaced Houston as the second best team in the NBA now? I'm not sure OKC is better than the Sixers or the Celtics and maybe not the Raptors (depending on what sort of attitude/effort Leonard brings) or the Rockets. To me, right now, the Celtics are the 2nd best team in the NBA. I'm not sure they will be when games start, but that's where it stands now. They made the Eastern Conference finals and have two All Stars returning from injury. Edited July 31, 2018 by PeterMP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Do Itch Big Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 Hayward is good not great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RonArtest15 Posted July 31, 2018 Author Share Posted July 31, 2018 I think a case can be made for Wade being better than Kobe, but that's another debate for another day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Sinister Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 9 minutes ago, RonArtest15 said: I think a case can be made for Wade being better than Kobe, but that's another debate for another day. In the first few years of their career, I would agree. Overall, I love Wade, but nah, man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dont Taze Me Bro Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 12 minutes ago, RonArtest15 said: I think a case can be made for Wade being better than Kobe, but that's another debate for another day. Really no debate. Kobe > Wade Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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