Coles vs. TO

[laurent]

GB81, would you be happier if we said Coles is the better football player and TO the better wide receiver?

IMHO that's exactly what it comes down to. TO is a better athlete and certainly has the numbers to back up his status as one of the top wideouts in the league. Where Coles clearly has the edge is the intangibles.

You won't find Coles dividing a locker room with his bad attitude and you most certainly won't find him publicly ridiculing and criticizing teammates and coaches. What you will find is a player that busts his tail on every play whether it's been designed to go his way or not.

Tell me, which scenario is more likely, TO hustling back and forcing a fumble after an INT or flailing his arms in disgust as the other team runs the ball back for a TD?

That's what makes Coles a better FOOTBALL PLAYER.

[Drex]

As much as I admire Coles' ability and upside, I have to be objective and take T.O. in this poll.

Ask me this question in a couple of years, and I will probably take Coles.

[Art]

Originally posted by GB81

The fact that Coles is winning this poll by a significant margin is a really damning indictment of the general football knowledge and/or homerism on this site.

Laveranues Coles is very good and has the potential to be great. He is not Terrell Owens. The question was, "who is better?"

I voted for Owens, but I think you can make a seriously sound argument for Coles.

Not only did Coles perform better than Owens last year despite being injured and playing in a weaker offensive system, but Coles has shown the capacity to take responsibility for his own mistakes and place the health of the team upon himself. The team concept for those who believe in chemistry likely puts Coles far above a guy like Owens.

Coles is faster than owens. He's quicker. He's better in his routes. Coles was just better than Owens after getting the ball in his hands as well, surpassing him both in total yards after the catch as well as average gain in the YAC category. This despite Owens playing in a perfect offense for such yards and Coles playing in a system that was a little less ideal for it.

These are clear advantages for Coles in physical traits as well as production. You add to that the fact that Coles fits in better on a typical team than Owens appears to and the ability to pick Coles certainly seems solid. I think MUCH of what people are picking in this poll though is what they perceive the possibilities for Coles are within this offense and the expectation that perhaps he'll really have a big year playing in it.

You may not like the rationale that some are using in drawing their conclusions, GB, but, it seems that a simple dismissal of it based on your belief that an 80-catch receiver is in the Top 4 in the league leaves something about your football IQ to be desired here.

[KDawg]

Better receiver? Owens...

But would any Redskin fan be willing to trade Coles for TO? I sure as hell wouldn't... Coles is driven, Coles has football smarts, Coles has tremendous skills, Coles is a team player...

I'll take Coles any day of the week over TO. But TO is the better receiver, at least right now.

[jakehunter]

Why is this even a topic?

1.) TO IS BETTER!

2.) A few people said they take Coles, because of his age. Well guess what, the way the question was asked with the belief of who was better now.

3.) A few people said Coles is better at his age then TO was, again the question was asked with the belief of who was better no

You guys have some of the biggest homers ever. If TO held out to be a Skin, and the Skins had to cut Coles to get him.. You guys would love it. Forget TO... Coles is on the level of the Chad Johnson's, Mason's, etc.

[KDawg]

As my above post stated, I would not be happy with TO over Coles, sorry... TO is the better receiver, but I'd take Coles over TO any day of the week.

[Flowtrain]

53-36 Coles?

That's scary. Coles is an excellent player. No question. But to think he's a better player than Owens is nothing short of asinine.

Owens has averaged 1300 yds and 13 TDs over the last 4 seasons. How can Coles be said to be better than that when he has never ever reached those numbers? And for all the talk about him suffering from poor QB play last season, don't forget that in 2002, Coles' QB led the NFL in accuracy and QB rating. Are we to believe that Owens has suddenly lost all ability to perform at peak level because of an off year last year? That's silly. And while it's not quite as silly to project that Coles can reach Owens' past production, it is silly to value such possibility more highly than the proven capability to actually make it happen.

Let's put aside the size/strength issue and the significant fact that Owens dominated the NFL in 2000, 2001 and 2002. Let's instead look at one particular aspect of their game. Red zone threat. This has proven to be, at this point, the one weakness in Coles' game, while it is the strength of Owens. Coles has never had 8 TDs in one season. Owens? He's had 4 seasons with 13 or more TDs. Again, save the chatter about Spurrier's system. When the same system gives McCants the same number of TDs as Coles in 55 fewer catches, you lose all right to use that argument. Then it becomes one that stares you in the face. Now, Owens didn't become an uncoverable force overnight, which lends credence to the notion that Coles could improve as well. But again, I'm taking the known over the unknown.

And this idea of Owens as a cancer is way overblown. If the wheels are falling off during the season and the team is floundering, it's true that Owens ain't helping the situation. But it's not fair to note his lowlights with complete disregard to the other side of the coin. When the 9ers beat the Giants in that ridiculous 2002 playoff game, was it the 49ers or the Giants that was infected by Owens' cancer as he had 9 catches for 177 yards, threw a TD, caught 2 TDs and caught 2 two-pt conversions? I'm sorry. I missed the point at halftime where down 14-28, Owens sulked, ****ed and moaned, polarizing his teammates and spreading that cancerous aspect of his game. I did catch the part where he carried the team on his back to pull out an impossible playoff win.

Coles is an excellent player who is well-rounded and has tons of potential. But to think that he's a BETTER football player than Terrell Owens contradicts history, statistics, logic and reason. 47-31? That's pretty bad.

[jakehunter]

... and we know Spurrier's Offense didn't run the ball. Everyone expects Gibbs offense to let Portis blow up, and have Coles blow up. That's crazy. We know Gibbs is run first, don't be overly shocked if Coles stats even go down just a tad. Not saying it will happen, but it's very realistic with Gibbs in there. But then again, TO's may taper down with Reid's philosophy of spreading the ball.

[Lurman]

I would have to go with Owens. So often when evaluating the Redskins talent against that of their opponents we extrapolate a player's proven performance on another team to what he will be capable of as a Skin. In that sense, several months before the season, the Eagles now have the best wide receiver in the division.

Though I'm sure, as it always seems to be the case with free agents, TO won't have one of his better years as an Eagle.

[mark327]

i've seen some bad poles before but this question takes the cake!!! :doh:

Flow : good post !!

:ravensuck :gaintsuck :eaglesuck :dallasuck

edit: i didn't vote the answer is obvious !!!!!

[The X-Factor]

TO is a better receiver, there is no question about that.

As a person, TO is garbage. You can have all the skill in the world, but if you don't work well with your team then all that skill is going to go to waste.

Coles probably will not ever reach the talent level of TO, but his work ethic is undeniable. He is a true team player and will not take plays off like TO.

Better receiver: TO

More valuable player: Coles

[Gamebreaker]

Originally posted by KenF

Coles isn't in the same league as Owens, in terms of skill and capabilities. Owens manhandles CBs -- look what he's done to Champ Bailey and Aeneas Williams, two of the best CBs in the NFL. Last year, Owens almost single-handedly won half the 49rs games -- he is a major force in the NFL, there's no doubt about that.

That said, you can't take skill and capabilities alone. When it comes to attitude, Owens is bringing up the rear. When your attitude sucks, you are going to hurt the team in other ways, as obvious last year in San Francisco.

Owens abilities - attitude that hurts his team

Coles abilities + attitude that helps his team

That considered, I would still give the edge to Owens, but just barely.

And what exactly has he done to Champ Bailey? Besides getting shutdown of course. That has been my main gripe with TO, he doesn't play well aganist extremely good cornerbacks. Who else besides Shawn Springs has he burned? Giants corner Will Allen made him his b!tch for a whole game and TO could say nothing.

The difference between Owens and Coles huge. One player you can count on to give his all at all times, the other you can't. It's the same reason why Randy Moss, who is the most talented reciever ever, is still a lesser reciever than Marvin Harrison. Because Harrison lays it all out for his team and produces, where as Moss will give you less than optimal effort. The a lesser degree, this same principle applies to Owens and Coles.

[laurent]

Originally posted by Flowtrain

53-36 Coles?

That's scary. Coles is an excellent player. No question. But to think he's a better player than Owens is nothing short of asinine.

As someone that prides himself as being the beacon of objectivity I'm surprised that you apparently didn't even bother to read most of the posts regarding this subject.

I think it's fairly obvious that most posters in this thread believe that TO is the better WR but if given the choice they would pick Coles anyway.

You may disagree but asinine? Hardly.

[phanatic]

Better receiver: TO

More valuable player: Coles

Better receiver:TO

More valuable player: Mom.

WHAT' S YOUR POINT?

Like Ray Lewis isn't a "good person". I don't know many people who wouldn't want that "player" on their team.

[Riggo-toni]

Are we talking about Owens before or after Sean Taylor gives him a concussion?

[laurent]

What's YOUR point? He never said he would pick Coles because he's better person but because he believes he's a better overall player.

[The X-Factor]

Originally posted by phanatic

Like Ray Lewis isn't a "good person". I don't know many people who wouldn't want that "player" on their team.

You're right, Ray Lewis is not a good person. However, he is still a team player, which TO obviously is not. Lewis is also a leader for not only the defense, but the offense also. Correct me if I'm worng, but I don't think I've ever heard one of TO's teammates ever say that he was a good leader.

You can have a bad personality but still be respective by your teammates. However, if you have a bad attitude, it is very hard to garner respect. All I'm saying is that TO has to learn to put the beneifit of the team before himself. I believe that if he can do this, he will be able to reshape his image and be a very good player for a few more years down the road.

[NavyDave]

Coles is better and younger but Moss is head and shoulders above both

[Eagles_Legendz]

Originally posted by laurent

As someone that prides himself as being the beacon of objectivity I'm surprised that you apparently didn't even bother to read most of the posts regarding this subject.

I think it's fairly obvious that most posters in this thread believe that TO is the better WR but if given the choice they would pick Coles anyway.

You may disagree but asinine? Hardly.

Sorry, I thought the thread read 'who is the best player?'

Gamebreaker, I wouldn't cite the Giants as a source for Owens playing badly against better opponents. He had over 175 yards and 2 TDs in the playoffs against them.

Art, I wouldn't throw the word "clearly" around as loosely as you are. Coles through four years has 600 yards more and 17 TDs less than Owens. Which stat is more important? You be the judge, but Coles clearly outproducing Owens isn't a statement I'd agree with.

I'd also wait to see how McNabb does with Owens before I annoint Garcia a more accurate QB. Perhaps one of the key reasons for McNabb's inaccuracy is the poor play of his WRs (Not the only reason, but one of them). He has never had someone like Owens to throw to, and yet, over the last 11 GAMES of the season last year, McNabb had the BEST QB rating in the league. His incredibly horrendous start watered down his QB rating obviously though.

Anyway, in a few years I'd take Coles. Right now I'd take Owens, who is the more proven commodity and incredible physical specimen. I would be suprised if he has an 'explosion' this year and attacks McNabb/or Reid.

EDIT- Here is Mora's quotes for you. Courtesy of the Philly Inq:

""Terrell is a good person," Mora said. "It frustrates him that he's perceived as a bad guy. Here's a guy who's never had a DUI. He's never hit a woman. He doesn't have children scattered all over the land. He's never been arrested. For the most part, he treats people with respect. He takes care of the rookies on the team who don't have much. Has he said some boneheaded things? Yeah. But he's a good guy with a good heart."

Mora isn't about to defend Owens' sideline screaming tirade last year with Knapp, who now is his offensive coordinator in Atlanta. But he said it was a heat-of-the-moment episode that Owens quickly regretted.

"He came into Greg's office the next day after that happened and apologized in tears," Mora said. "It just got away from him. He wants to win so badly. He's not a guy who necessarily sees the big picture. All he knows is T.O. isn't getting the ball and we're not winning. He doesn't necessarily know why he isn't getting the ball. But he knows he's not getting it and he's not winning and he gets upset."

[Eagles_Legendz]

Originally posted by The X-Factor

You're right, Ray Lewis is not a good person. However, he is still a team player, which TO obviously is not. Lewis is also a leader for not only the defense, but the offense also. Correct me if I'm worng, but I don't think I've ever heard one of TO's teammates ever say that he was a good leader.

Okay, I'll correct you. Jim Mora Jr. (ex Niners OCoord) said that Owens is the hardest working player he's ever been around and goes out of his way to help the younger WRs. Owens also has had nothing but positive things to say about his teammates with the exception of Garcia. Maybe a change in venue was the only thing needed?

[Butz65]

Originally posted by GB81

I'm sorry, but anyone who says Coles is better than Owens is just a ridiculous homer. While yes, Coles numbers for his first 4 years are at least arguably better than Owen's (Coles: 242 rec., 3906 yards, TO: 222 rec., 3307 yards), Owens had 30 TDs in his first 4 seasons to Coles' 13 TDs.

Owens is one of the best 4 WR's in the league--in the top tier with Moss, Harrison and Holt. Coles is one of the better receivers in the second tier.

Coles is clearly a better team guy, but anyone who thinks he is a better WR than Owens has his head in the sand.

I have to agree with this. I love the Skins but there's no way Coles is as good a receiver as TO. Fortunatley he's going to a team who's coach likes to dink and dunk and spread out the touches. If the Eagles switch out of the West Coast offense to a more "Gibbs-like" vertical attack than TO will loom large.

[Art]

Blazers,

It can't be more clear. Coles has more catches and more yards than Owens at the same stage of their careers. Owens has more touchdowns. That doesn't equal out. Further, Coles is far ahead of where Owens was not only on the whole after four years, but as a player. He's much more developed as a threat at this stage than Owens was. Owens made a quantum leap in year 5 that put him in the elite level of receiver, at least for a few years. Coles has not made that same leap. This is why I'd take Owens over Coles in terms of saying which is a better receiver. The fact that Coles is further ahead at the same stage may not mean anything as the years progress. It may also mean a great deal.

[jpgirth]

Originally posted by Eagles_Legendz

Okay, I'll correct you. Jim Mora Jr. (ex Niners OCoord) said that Owens is the hardest working player he's ever been around and goes out of his way to help the younger WRs. Owens also has had nothing but positive things to say about his teammates with the exception of Garcia. Maybe a change in venue was the only thing needed?

The entire organization couln't get him out of town fast enough.

Jim Mora wanted to be a head coach. No controversy, gimme a break. Jim Mora still has to have relationships with the players.

[jpgirth]

Originally posted by Eagles_Legendz

Sorry, I thought the thread read 'who is the best player?'

Gamebreaker, I wouldn't cite the Giants as a source for Owens playing badly against better opponents. He had over 175 yards and 2 TDs in the playoffs against them.

Art, I wouldn't throw the word "clearly" around as loosely as you are. Coles through four years has 600 yards more and 17 TDs less than Owens. Which stat is more important? You be the judge, but Coles clearly outproducing Owens isn't a statement I'd agree with.

I'd also wait to see how McNabb does with Owens before I annoint Garcia a more accurate QB. Perhaps one of the key reasons for McNabb's inaccuracy is the poor play of his WRs (Not the only reason, but one of them). He has never had someone like Owens to throw to, and yet, over the last 11 GAMES of the season last year, McNabb had the BEST QB rating in the league. His incredibly horrendous start watered down his QB rating obviously though.

Anyway, in a few years I'd take Coles. Right now I'd take Owens, who is the more proven commodity and incredible physical specimen. I would be suprised if he has an 'explosion' this year and attacks McNabb/or Reid.

EDIT- Here is Mora's quotes for you. Courtesy of the Philly Inq:

""Terrell is a good person," Mora said. "It frustrates him that he's perceived as a bad guy. Here's a guy who's never had a DUI. He's never hit a woman. He doesn't have children scattered all over the land. He's never been arrested. For the most part, he treats people with respect. He takes care of the rookies on the team who don't have much. Has he said some boneheaded things? Yeah. But he's a good guy with a good heart."

Mora isn't about to defend Owens' sideline screaming tirade last year with Knapp, who now is his offensive coordinator in Atlanta. But he said it was a heat-of-the-moment episode that Owens quickly regretted.

"He came into Greg's office the next day after that happened and apologized in tears," Mora said. "It just got away from him. He wants to win so badly. He's not a guy who necessarily sees the big picture. All he knows is T.O. isn't getting the ball and we're not winning. He doesn't necessarily know why he isn't getting the ball. But he knows he's not getting it and he's not winning and he gets upset."

I remember 4 weeks he had the best qb rating.

11 weeks?

[rdsknbill]

TO is just like Rod Smith of the Broncos. All about the Benjamins, and about how many times he touches the ball. It has nothing to do with being a team