Coles vs. TO

[bobby1]

Owens may be better at this point but all that fades when you look at To's personallty compared to Coles. Coles is willing to do whatever it takes to win even if it means running the ball more To just crys and whines if he does not get the ball. Without a doubt from talent- to personallty Coles is better than To.

[TexasEagle]

Pretty selective stat selections there, Art. Unlike Owens, Coles didn't start out his first four years sharing time & catches with Jerry Rice (arguably the best receiver of all time).

And except for 1997 (where it looks like Rice got hurt early) and 2000 Rice had more catches/ balls thrown to him than Owens, but Owens put up comparable numbers and in some cases even accumulated more yards than Rice.

The best year to look at is 1998 (Owen's third year in the league):

Owens had 67 catches, 1097 yards and 14 TDs

Rice had 82 catches, 1157 yards and 9 TDs

Two receivers on the same team combined for 149 catches 2254 yards and 23 TDs

Coles third year (2002) he was thrown to 27 more times than Owens in his third year and only accumulated 167 (1264 total) more yards and 9 less TDs (5 total) as the primary receiver for the Jets. Their next highest receiver, Wayne Chrebet, caught 51 passes for 691 yards and he also had more TDs than Coles.

Pretty easy to pick out select stats to fit in with an argument/ position while ignoring the entire rest of the picture. Owens is a better receiver than Coles. Moss, Harrison, and probably Holt are better than Owens, and Rice is better than all of them. You can make any sort of arguments for "character", "cancers', "being a better person" , etc... but Owens is still a better receiver than Coles.

[Art]

TE,

Picking out seasonal statistics for a player is not all that selective. Picking out the ONLY stats that ARE available for Coles is not selective. It's called encompassing. Your willingness to chastise me for providing selective stats when I've offered the entire four year career of Coles while you counter by giving the third season for both is amusing for the contradictory nature of your statement, but not enlightening.

As I pointed out and you mention here, Coles became a No. 1 receiver within his first four seasons. Owens didn't. Owens was a No. 2 receiver. The fact that Coles has been a No. 1 receiver without a viable, consistent threat at No. 2 in his two years as that go-to receiver further tilts the advantage in development his way over Owens at the same stage. Afterall, Owens got fat on the attention given to Rice when he was a No. 2 receiver in San Francisco.

Even as Rice started to decline and the offense started going through Owens, Owens STILL had Jerry Rice on the other side of him to assist with the attention typically given a No. 1 receiver. Gardner may provide a similar boost if he rebounds nicely. Coles just hasn't had the threat opposite him that Owens has had.

Interestingly, once Rice left, Owens' yards per catch and yards have declined each of the last two years. Owens had a very fine year last year, but a year that was clearly a step down from previous performances. He is now playing on a team, itself, without a consisent, valid threat opposite him. He may do well despite that or he may continue to suffer a little.

Again, I picked Owens in this poll and thread. I understand the reasoning behind Coles though. And, this year, if Owens hits 80 catches and has another fine year, but Coles hits 100 and enters the elite level, we won't need to have this discussion again .

[jpgirth]

Originally posted by TexasEagle

Pretty selective stat selections there, Art. Unlike Owens, Coles didn't start out his first four years sharing time & catches with Jerry Rice (arguably the best receiver of all time).

And except for 1997 (where it looks like Rice got hurt early) and 2000 Rice had more catches/ balls thrown to him than Owens, but Owens put up comparable numbers and in some cases even accumulated more yards than Rice.

The best year to look at is 1998 (Owen's third year in the league):

Owens had 67 catches, 1097 yards and 14 TDs

Rice had 82 catches, 1157 yards and 9 TDs

Two receivers on the same team combined for 149 catches 2254 yards and 23 TDs

Coles third year (2002) he was thrown to 27 more times than Owens in his third year and only accumulated 167 (1264 total) more yards and 9 less TDs (5 total) as the primary receiver for the Jets. Their next highest receiver, Wayne Chrebet, caught 51 passes for 691 yards and he also had more TDs than Coles.

Pretty easy to pick out select stats to fit in with an argument/ position while ignoring the entire rest of the picture. Owens is a better receiver than Coles. Moss, Harrison, and probably Holt are better than Owens, and Rice is better than all of them. You can make any sort of arguments for "character", "cancers', "being a better person" , etc... but Owens is still a better receiver than Coles.

Selective Stats? Huh

In that third year did Coles match up with the Number 1 cb.

Did TO match up with the number 2 and probably had single coverage with the safety usually supporting Rice's side.

Little more to think about.

[rdsknbill]

Not to mention that as soon as there was talk of Rice moving on, TO instantly turned into "Da MAN"

What an imature putz.

[TexasEagle]

Originally posted by Art

TE,

Picking out seasonal statistics for a player is not all that selective. Picking out the ONLY stats that ARE available for Coles is not selective. It's called encompassing. Your willingness to chastise me for providing selective stats when I've offered the entire four year career of Coles while you counter by giving the third season for both is amusing for the contradictory nature of your statement, but not enlightening.

Your way with words is exemplary, I'll give you that. But no way you twist what I said or pontificate your argument will change what I stated. Coles "ONLY stats" as you put are indeed his only stats, but as I said, when you use those stats to compare him against Owens they don't encompass the entire picture when you ignore the surrounding situation. That being, Owens was forced to be a #2 behind Jerry Rice. Who did Coles have to play behind? Wayne Chrebet? When Owens got a chance to be a #1 his stats exploded and have remained high ever since. He's had 4 straight 1000+ yard years since he became the #1.

I only used the third year as an example of the numbers Owens put up while playing second fiddle to Rice because they both played all 16 games that season (and Coles played all 16 games his third year). This didn't happen in any other year except Owens Rookie season.

Originally posted by Art

As I pointed out and you mention here, Coles became a No. 1 receiver within his first four seasons. Owens didn't.

And as I said, Coles didn't play with a receiver of Rice's caliber. You can try to twist that any way you like, but it's a fact that you can't ignore.

Originally posted by Art

Interestingly, once Rice left, Owens' yards per catch and yards have declined each of the last two years.

He also missed games the last two years also. Coles numbers went down last year from the year before too... so what? I fully expect Owens numbers to be less this year as well. Doesn't mean a thing.

[Art]

TE,

Owens has missed games four of the last five years. He's only started all 16 games ONCE in his NFL life. Nonetheless, you point out circumstance around Owens being a No. 2 receiver because it is important to you to discuss these special circumstances. Yet, you aren't, seemingly, willing to do the same when it comes to Coles.

Remember, while Owens was drawing No. 2 corners and single coverage, Coles was getting doubled as a No. 1 receiver. This was something Owens didn't get to experience until his fifth year and he still had Rice playing with him. So, if you REALLY need to go into circumstance, then apply it liberally to both players, not just to Owens. And, especially don't apply it to Owens when that application actually HELPS MAKE COLES look even better in comparison.

[TexasEagle]

Originally posted by Art

TE,

Owens has missed games four of the last five years. He's only started all 16 games ONCE in his NFL life.

Would kind of make those consecutive 1000+ yard seasons pretty impressive then wouldn't it?

Originally posted by Art

Remember, while Owens was drawing No. 2 corners and single coverage, Coles was getting doubled as a No. 1 receiver. This was something Owens didn't get to experience until his fifth year and he still had Rice playing with him.

Funny, I don't recall Coles being doubled all that much, but since I'm not a Jets fan I wouldn't know. I guess you've watched a lot more Jets games than I have.

Originally posted by Art

So, if you REALLY need to go into circumstance, then apply it liberally to both players, not just to Owens. And, especially don't apply it to Owens when that application actually HELPS MAKE COLES look even better in comparison.

Whatever you say, Art.

[Flowtrain]

Originally posted by laurent

As someone that prides himself as being the beacon of objectivity I'm surprised that you apparently didn't even bother to read most of the posts regarding this subject.

I think it's fairly obvious that most posters in this thread believe that TO is the better WR but if given the choice they would pick Coles anyway.

If you click on the link that says "View Results," it tells you how people voted in this poll. It is on those results that I was commenting. The fact that some who voted for Coles have chosen to chime in on this thread to qualify their answer hardly negates the astonishing overall results.

As an aside, I don't think it's appropriate to get caught up in this game of who has accomplished more at this particular stage in their career. We've got players like Antonio Freeman who have looked to be better than Coles after 4 years who have fizzled out, and guys like Tim Brown who didn't have a 1000 yd season until their 6th year. You've also seen this in your own backyard with Gardner outperforming Coles in his first 2 seasons. There are far better criteria for conducting a side-by-side comparison of two players than how they match up the earliest seasons of their respective careers. If this is where Coles' supporters choose to hang their hat, it's rather telling as to the overall strength of their argument.

[Art]

Flow,

Actually, the only person who's using the criteria of a side-by-side comparison of two players as they match up at the same stage of their careers is me. And, I've picked Owens. So, as I'm not a Coles supporter in this thread, perhaps you should pay closer attention, yes?

That said, the importance of comparisons between players at similar stages of their development is actually very important in discussing the relative merits of the players. You see, Terrell Owens was a splendid receiver in his fifth and sixth years and was real good in is seventh year and his eight year he was pretty damn good too. How was Coles?

We don't know. He's not been a fifth or sixth or seventh or eighth year player. The only commonality these two players have is both have been first-year receivers. Both have been second-year receivers. Both have been third-year receivers. Both have been fourth-year receivers.

Despite advantages at comparitive stages, you can't conclude one player will continue to ramp up to surpass another. But, it remains a telling bit of evidence when considering how legitimate one's hopes of a greater level of performance are.

There are other criteria you can weigh as well.

For example, speed of the players is one criteria. Who's faster? Well, Coles is.

How about quickness? Coles.

How about hands? Coles.

How about route-running? Coles.

Strength? Owens. Size? Owens.

Again, the results of this poll strike me as less present day value than prospects on the near-term future coupled with a greater recognition of Coles as a team player. In terms of projections for this season to come, one could easily state Coles will surpass Owens and given that Coles is a better guy in the lockerroom, that alone allows such a vote cast to have great meaning.

Even if you don't like it Flow.

[CaliforniaSkin]

Owens certainly has the history of production behind him. Owens also has had two very accurate QBs throwing him the ball including a hall of famer to start his career. Owens is, without question, the prototypical west-coast offense receiver and should fit in Philly's system.

That said, Coles may be better for the 'skins system and certainly is better for the locker room. I lived in San Francisco for most of Owens' career and am still in northern CA so in the heart of '9er country. Noone, thinks he's a good team player. Yeah, he wants to win, but it's _very_ important to him to be getting his catches. He has publically complained about not getting the ball enough after a WIN.

Owens, so far in his career has been a very good receiver. But it is possible, even likely, that he is slipping. Coles has been a good receiver but not in the elite level. On the other hand he is young and by all accounts a great team player.

So, sure, Owens has to get the vote for better receiver right now. But I'm MUCH happier having Coles on my team.

[Flowtrain]

Originally posted by Art

Actually, the only person who's using the criteria of a side-by-side comparison of two players as they match up at the same stage of their careers is me. And, I've picked Owens. So, as I'm not a Coles supporter in this thread, perhaps you should pay closer attention, yes?

Well since you've chosen Owens, you implicitly undermine the importance of your own argument. That puts you in the awkward situation of attempting to convince me of something of which you were unable to convince yourself.

That said, the importance of comparisons between players at similar stages of their development is actually very important in discussing the relative merits of the players. But, it remains a telling bit of evidence when considering how legitimate one's hopes of a greater level of performance are.

You say it's telling, but I say it's not. I've plainly shown you why it's not by providing relevant examples such as Freeman v. Brown and Gardner v. Coles. You've pleaded that it is by baldly saying so. Besides, even if one does buy into this theory, what do they receive in return? The hope that Coles could one day be as good as or possibly better than Owens? That's a nice consolation prize, but one that doesn't quite cut the mustard when the original question at issue here is which individual is a better football player.

The only commonality these two players have is both have been first-year receivers. Both have been second-year receivers.

Only commonality? What about the fact that both have been asked to assume the role of a #1 WR each Sunday? When Coles is tackled on the 2 yard line, does the ref say, "well, we'll give him the TD because he's got the potential to reach the endzone next year"? No. The P Word makes for warm fuzzy feelings among fans and beat writers, but the rest are interested in what's actually been proven when given the opportunity. Coles has had the opportunity to be a #1 and he's done very nicely. Owens has had the opportunity and he's done extraordinarily. They've shared that commonality, with varied degrees of ultimate success to date.

There are other criteria you can weigh as well.

Sure there are. But productivity is the most important. Once a player has a lengthy resume of work, there's no need to study their 40-times like you're Mel Jr. and they're prospects from San Diego State. I'd rather see how those results translated on the field, in terms of Red Zone results (a sore point no doubt), possession results, deep threat results, etc. When that evidence is readily available, there's no need to overlook it in favor of less meaningful data.

Again, the results of this poll strike me as less present day value than prospects on the near-term future coupled with a greater recognition of Coles as a team player. In terms of projections for this season to come, one could easily state Coles will surpass Owens and given that Coles is a better guy in the lockerroom, that alone allows such a vote cast to have great meaning.

I can understand your desire to explain the startling poll tally of your comrades. But, using that rationale they've employed, you'd be forced to take Santana Moss over Owens too, as he had more catches and yards than Owens in his 3rd year, is younger, and has been a been a better lockerroom presence as well. But unfortunately, identifying a rationale doesn't make it convincing when it's contradicted by more persuasive countervailing information. Of course, you already knew this, as evidenced by the way you voted.

[laurent]

Originally posted by Flowtrain

If you click on the link that says "View Results," it tells you how people voted in this poll. It is on those results that I was commenting. The fact that some who voted for Coles have chosen to chime in on this thread to qualify their answer hardly negates the astonishing overall results.

You've been around message boards long enough to know that not everybody that participates in a poll happens to qualify his choice with a response in the respective thread.

The fact is not that SOME who voted for Coles qualified their answers in the fashion I stated, but that the majority of posters did.

Then again I shouldn't really be surprised that you choose to make assumptions about the motives of those that didn't post in the thread and dismiss those that did as being in the minority. Whatever serves your purpose right?

[Art]

Flow,

I wonder if you're just pretending to miss the point, or if in your typical level of density, you really have missed it. The comparison of players at the same stage of development isn't meant as a definitive assessment for the future. Players bloom late, or falter late.

The comparison is simply to assess development during the same snapshot in time. I picked Owens because after a more sluggish beginning to his career where he fattened up while Rice took the attention, he emerged as a receiver capable of putting up elite production. He did that, really, for three of the last four years. That type of production gives him an advantage until Coles shows he can match or surpass it, or until Owens shows he's on decline while Coles has largely become what he's going to become.

If past performance led absolutely to future performance, this wouldn't be a discussion at all. All past performance does, when compared to others, is judge where a player was at the same stage in his career and in that, Coles was well ahead of Owens. The only true comparison you have on Coles and Owens at this point is based on where they were at the same stage.

In that assessment Coles is the superior player. What we'll know after his eighth season may alter that assessment. Or, it may confirm it. Despite being mildy better a year ago despite being injured and playing in a weaker offense the league figured out with very poor QB play, Coles needs to have a big year to really tilt the scales in his favor in this debate. That's why I picked Owens.

I just know Coles is a 100-catch season away from changing that answer in the present. Given his past performance, he may be the sort of player capable of achieving those results.

[Flowtrain]

Originally posted by laurent

You've been around message boards long enough to know that not everybody that participates in a poll happens to qualify his choice with a response in the respective thread.

The fact is not that SOME who voted for Coles qualified their answers in the fashion I stated, but that the majority of posters did.

Then again I shouldn't really be surprised that you choose to make assumptions about the motives of those that didn't post in the thread and dismiss those that did as being in the minority. Whatever serves your purpose right?

Dude, the poll asks who is better. Coles was the overwhelming choice when I commented. Period. Did the majority of people who voted for Coles think Owens was actually more talented, but Coles better for other reasons? Answer: it doesn't make a damn bit of difference because every single word of my original post stands as written. The part about Owens not being as cancerous as people claim. The part about what they've proven to date. The part about the systems in which they've played. All of it.

If the display of homerism embarrasses you, I can't help you out. Lashing out at me doesn't change the results. Here's an alternative suggestion. Take a crack at challenging the substance of my post rather than attempting to conduct a psychological profile of those who cast votes. Then we may have something to chat about.

[triple6mafia]

skill and strength wise owens, but if i were asked who i would rather have, i would say coles becuase of his attitude and it's more about the team

[Flowtrain]

Well Art - first the comparison of early career production was "telling evidence" and "very important." Now, it's simply a "snapshot" that helps "judge where a player was at in the same stage in his career." It could possibly indicate Coles' potential to reach Owens current level, though we're not quite sure. In other words, it's relatively useless when other more important data is available, which is why it didn't sway you when voting. Glad you came around.

[Skins11]

Originally posted by Flowtrain

And this idea of Owens as a cancer is way overblown. If the wheels are falling off during the season and the team is floundering, it's true that Owens ain't helping the situation. But it's not fair to note his lowlights with complete disregard to the other side of the coin. When the 9ers beat the Giants in that ridiculous 2002 playoff game, was it the 49ers or the Giants that was infected by Owens' cancer as he had 9 catches for 177 yards, threw a TD, caught 2 TDs and caught 2 two-pt conversions? I'm sorry. I missed the point at halftime where down 14-28, Owens sulked, ****ed and moaned, polarizing his teammates and spreading that cancerous aspect of his game. I did catch the part where he carried the team on his back to pull out an impossible playoff win.

You said it right here:

If the wheels are falling off during the season and the team is floundering, it's true that Owens ain't helping the situation.

This is a huge deal. When you make the playoffs, you have a pretty good team, and there usually isn't much adversity. If there are problems with the team, they are usually invisible to the public since winning is the cure-all. Many players can exist on winning teams while still being a disruptive force. An example would be Keyshawn - the Bucs did win the Superbowl with him, but they pretty much ostracized him the next year.

However, when the niners started to suck, as they did this year, what did Owens do? He ridiculed his QB every chance he got, yelled at his OC, and whined to the media. How is this overblown? Owens STILL criticizes Garcia even though that should be history.

All your example of that game shows is that he is a huge competitor, and is great on a successful team. The question is, does he act the same way when it matters just as much - when the team is struggling? Clearly the answer is no. And, any team will face adversity at one point or another. It's not just a matter of leading a comeback in one game; it is maintaining that attitude over an entire season.

[Eagles_Legendz]

Originally posted by jpgirth

The entire organization couln't get him out of town fast enough.

Jim Mora wanted to be a head coach. No controversy, gimme a break. Jim Mora still has to have relationships with the players.

The quote was from after Philly got Owens and Mora was coaching Atlanta. He also stated he would have prefered Owens be in Baltimore to get him out of the NFC. And yes, McNabb's QB rating was the highest in the league the last 11 weeks. Add it up if you don't believe me.

Art, Coles did have more catches and more yards, but the difference in those categories is not nearly as significant as it is in regards to touchdowns. I think Coles has outproduced him thusfar, but I think a debate can be made either way.

[KDawg]

I think there's alot of people simply missing the point in this thread...

I don't think many (If any) are disputing the fact that right now Owens is the superior receiver...

What most of us are saying is that we'd take Coles over Owens any time...

Which seems to be slipping passed those with selective reading skills...

[NoCalMike]

I'd definately say Owens is the more accomplished receiver this far, but Coles is just starting to enter the prime of his career, he definately has displayed more character on and off the field, and we have yet to see what he can really do under a GREAT COACH, in a vertical passing game.

[Art]

Originally posted by Flowtrain

Well Art - first the comparison of early career production was "telling evidence" and "very important." Now, it's simply a "snapshot" that helps "judge where a player was at in the same stage in his career." It could possibly indicate Coles' potential to reach Owens current level, though we're not quite sure. In other words, it's relatively useless when other more important data is available, which is why it didn't sway you when voting. Glad you came around.

And again, Flow, offering up your own unwillingness to listen isn't really winning hearts and minds my boy. The reason I picked Owens over Coles is because Owens, in his ninth year has shown more than Coles in his fifth. The advantage of time assists him. The only direct comparison we have between the two is what they did at similar points in their careers. It may be that time doesn't close that gap for Coles. And it may be that it does. Until it does, I'll side with the elite level Owens has demonstrated. If it does, I'll realize why it happened isn't that surprising considering how much further along Coles was at the same stage of development.

[Redskinswhoopass]

Ownes is better then Coles. For Right now..

Coles has potentional to become NFL's Elite WR's but Ownes has been a NFL Elite.

Owens is a beast. Remember that Reverse he scored on us? or the Atlanta overtime game. You just can't stop this guy. And come Crunch Time this guy puts up #'s. (Green Bay Playoff catch) Owens is a like a Moss or Harrison typE. You could throw every pass atempt his way and WIN.( 20 Rec.'s)

I think he has a bad attuide, and Reminds me of Moss. But they have good points. A lot times they ARE OPEN and CAN beat the DB basically anytime you throw his way.

Now Coles he has some Blazing speed. It almost looks like everyone is in slow mo when he gets the ball. If the Redskins didn't have Jersey #'s I could still tell every time Coles has the ball. But, You can't throw the Ball to him 20 times a game yet.

BUT 1 PLAY WILL ALWAYS SEPRATE COLES FROM MOSS AND OWNES. SEAHAWKS GAME WHERE COLES CHASED DOWN THE DB AND STOPPED HIM FROM SCORING A TD AND MADE HIM FUMBLE IT. OWENS AND MOSS WOULD NEVER DO THAT!!:notworthy

[NoCalMike]

lets not forget Owens recent case of Alligator arms the last couple of seasons.....

[fansince62]

who' got the greater likelihood of being broken in half by Taylor this season? I say TO!!!!!!!