Coles vs. TO

[Art]

Originally posted by JeffSchmeff

Art - just out of curiosity, how can you say with any certainty that Coles has the advantage in route running or hands over Owens?

LC has the advantage in straight line speed, but Owens is no slouch when it comes to running away from defenders either.

Have you seen them play?

Owens drops a very high number of balls. Two years ago Coles dropped ONE pass according to STATS Inc., which provided those stats. Coles had about five last year. In any case, few players catch as well as Coles on the field. As for route running, the answer is equally simple. Owens is a long-strider. Naturally he's going to have a more difficult time hitting his routes as crisply as a guy like Coles who is smaller and has smaller steps. When you see Owens on tape on the various highlight shows like Playbook and you see Coles you'll be able to see the clear difference.

[Art]

Originally posted by GB81

"Every bit of evidence"? Two statistics--receptions and yards. In yards per catch and TDs, Owens was better than Coles over that period (15.6 verus 15.2ypc, and 26TDs versus 13TDs). I would not say those are insignificant stats.

Every bit of evidence in favor of Coles was the statement, was it not, GB? Context. Coles had more yards, more receptions and was the receiver teams had to plan against with limited weapons next to him. Owens was a No. 2 receiver with Rice next to him. Other than touchdowns, Owens has no advantage over Coles at the same stage of development. The largest difference, of course, is Coles developed into a No. 1 receiver while Owens didn't at the same stage.

As embarrassing as you believe it is for people to select Coles as a better receiver (though largely they are doing so on better for the team and who they'd prefer to have because of it) it is exponentially more embarrassing to continue to have the clear advantage Coles had from a productivity standpoint discounted largely because Owens caught more touchdowns. One out of three might be meaningful if not for the fact that Owens was second fiddle while Coles was the soloist.

[Art]

Flow,

If you are going to forumulate an argument that the Niners, in Owens' third season had Rice and a great rushing game making it remarkable that Owens produced as he did, you might want to know a little something about that football team first.

You see, the Niners completed the second most passes in football Owens' third year. They attempted the sixth most. It's not all that remarkable to have two 1,000-yard receivers when you throw the ball that much. In fact, it'd be a tremendous surprise if you didn't.

Conversely, in Coles third season, the Jets completed the 28th most passes in football and attempted the 26th most. Again, all the more remarkable what Coles was able to do in comparison. We'll see if that continues.

[HotAction69]

Coles rocks. Definitely better than TO. TO is stupid. Actually, I prefer Bimbo Coles over Laverneus as a team player. And David Terrell has more upside than either one.

[RW31]

Originally posted by HotAction69

Coles rocks. Definitely better than TO. TO is stupid. Actually, I prefer Bimbo Coles over Laverneus as a team player. And David Terrell has more upside than either one.

Right....

[galentjm]

Originally posted by HotAction69

Coles rocks. Definitely better than TO. TO is stupid. Actually, I prefer Bimbo Coles over Laverneus as a team player. And David Terrell has more upside than either one.

Now that is how to make a lasting impression on your first post.:doh:

[Zen-like Todd]

Ok, I'm really busy, and I shouldnt even be on the board right now, but I'll weigh in without bothering to support my statements due to the time constraint.

I take Coles over Owens and don't look back, especially at the respective stages of their careers, with a slight bit of doubt thrown in if Coles' toe doesnt heal up.

I would have told you the exact same thing last year before the Redskins even acquired him. I live in NYC, and saw him two years ago with the Jets, so I've gotten quite a look at him over the past two years. He is most certainly a better route runner, and most certainly has better hands than Owens. There's no doubt on my mind on either account. His attitude and approach in comparison to TO's makes it a landslide on which player I'd rather have on my team.

[McNabb2Owens2k4]

This is the most rediculous thread on here. The funny thing is, that some of you, are trying to rationalize, that Coles is somehow better for your team, than Owens would be.

Art you have to be the biggest moron on here. did it ever occur to you, that maybe the reason that TO's first four years werent at the same level as they are now, is because, he was second fiddle to JERRY FREGGIN RICE! Oh and how can you say that Coles is a better athlete? He's not even close to Owens level. He does'nt compare in any aspect, except his 40 time. TO runs a 4.32 40, and his overall ability score, is a 911.99. That is second in the NFL behind Randy Moss. Coles runs a faster 40 time, of 4.29, but doesnt even come close in his overall scoring, of 698.36.

Heres a link to the site, that has every player in the NFL, and their workout scores.

http://couchscout.com/nfteam.htm

Talent wise, Coles is nothing compared to Owens.

Now that you tried arguing that Coles had a better first four years, than Owens did(which was shown to really not be much better at all), you failed to understand the question. Coles vs TO, who is better? Why dont we take a look at Coles vs TO the years that they have both been in the NFL.(you know not try and look at TO's stats from 1996, and talk about things that have happened this millenium)

So here is the comparison, stat wise of Coles vs TO over the past four seasons.(including the last two years, where TO's numbers "dropped off" according to Art)

Receptions: TO had 370 while Coles only had 252

Yards: TO had 5,265, while Coles could only manage 3,706

Touchdowns: Probably the most important stat of all, because scoring points, is what counts, and Coles had 19 tds vs Owens 51

First Downs: Coles 179 Owens 251

Receptions 20 yards +: Coles 60 Owens 76

Receptions 40+: Coles 7 Owens 20

Owens also has a higher career long reception, of 79 yards, and Coles has never had a longer catch than TO in any of his four years.

Really the only stat, that Coles beats Owens in, is career yards per catch, which is Coles 14.7 Owens 14.5. Wow .2 yards difference, that faster 40 time really helps Coles huh.

Somebody talked about the Coles chase down forced fumble play, saying that TO wouldnt do that, well lets look at the forced fumble stat. Coles 1 Owens 2

Owens even has better rushing stats :laugh: Owens is just all around a better player, in every category. As far as team impact, Owens has been a huge factor in games, and is clutch in big situations. He had the game winning TD in Lambeau Field, in OT in 1998. Also as mentioned before, he almost single handedly won that Giants game, which was a record, for the biggest defficet ever overcome, in playoff history. Owens is a four time Pro-Bowler, and holds the record for receptions in a game(which was during Jerry Rice day). We're talking about the guy, who was good enough, that the 49ers felt ok, with releasing the greatest WR of all time.

Owens is a dominating force, that must be reckoned with. Coles is just a good wr, who isnt better than Owens, in anyway, except for his 40 time. TO is a monster over the middle, and has the ability to go deep. IMO he is the most well rounded WR in the game, and ranks overall, in the top 3.

You wanna question the guys attitude? Ill be the first one on here, to say I love TO's mentality. The guy just flat out wants to win. He has that fire inside of him, and you can see it in his eyes. Jerry Rice said, "TO works even harder, than I do". The guy is a workaholic, obssessed with winning. He blew up on his offensive coordinator, not only because he was'nt getting the ball(why i have no idea), but also because the team wasnt winning games. Afterwards he apologized, and the team went on, like nothing ever happened.

Why arent people calling Keyshawn a cancer? This guy was spitting in John Gruden's face, and was deactivated, from the team(who had won the superbowl the year before), and later traded. I'd say when somebody writes a book titled, "Give me the damn ball", they are much more of a cancer, than a guy who was unhappy, and had one small blow up, in a long career.

TO has heart, no off field problems, and just wants to win. He chose Philly, over Baltimore, because he wanted to play with Donovan, and not Kyle Boller. This is a guy, who is everything you want, in a football player, and saying that you would take Coles, over TO, is just homerism.

The only real advantage that Coles, has over TO, is his youth. If you were building a franchise, you would take Coles,(even though there are better young wrs) but if you ask, who is the better player right now, TO wins hands down. Its not even close. Funny how this poll is on a Redskins site, and yet Coles right now is only ahead by 2%. Put this poll, on any other teams site, and Owens wins by 75% or more. Its just not even a contest.

[Gamebreaker]

Who is a better young WR than Coles? I'm just curious as to who you actually believe is better among young recievers.

By the way, anyone who doesn't think this guy has an attitude is an obvious homer. The fact that you had the nerve to call out people in the same post is hilarious.

[tkatz]

I am a HUGE Redskins fan and have nothing but great things to say about Laveranues Coles but I believe Terrell Owens is better at this point on time by a long shot. I also believe there are some young WR's out there that are better then Coles at this point as well.

Chad Johnson who just recently turned 26 is one of the best young talents in the game. He runs crisp, smooth patterns while having the speed to create separation. His hands are soft and when focused and working hard he is almost impossible to cover. Johnson has improved his statistics every year in the league and in my opinion reached the elite level last year while hauling in 90 receptions, 1355 yards, and 10 td's. He had a reception of more then 20 yards 20 times and had a reception over 40 seven times. Johnson's longest reception was also quite long this season, 82 yards. He averaged 15.1 ypc. If I had the choice of him or Coles I might have to choose him. He creates controversy but his teammates love him and as he matures he has become a much harder worker.

[jakehunter]

Originally posted by Gamebreaker

Who is a better young WR than Coles? I'm just curious as to who you actually believe is better among young recievers.

By the way, anyone who doesn't think this guy has an attitude is an obvious homer. The fact that you had the nerve to call out people in the same post is hilarious.

Chad Johsnon, Anquan Boldin, Randy Moss, Tory Holt... Moss & Holt are only 1 year older then Coles.

[McNabbOwnsFedEx]

TO is better. He's one of a few WR's who can dominate a game by himself. He's the best YAC WR in the NFL and he's also a much better blocker than Coles.

Coles is a top 10 WR, and a great player in his own right. TO is big time though, as Simeon Rice said.

[McNabbOwnsFedEx]

Better young WR's than Coles:

Chad Johnson (26)

Randy Moss (27, born the same year as Coles)

Anquan Boldin (23)

I'd say Santana Moss(24) and Steve Smith (24) are equal

[TheDane]

Originally posted by McNabbOwnsFedEx

Better young WR's than Coles:

Chad Johnson (26)

Randy Moss (27, born the same year as Coles)

Anquan Boldin (23)

I'd say Santana Moss(24) and Steve Smith (24) are equal

Randy Moss, yes. The rest? Very, very questionable.

Anquan Boldin, come on. He had a great rookie season but that's ONE year. If he does it again, we can talk.

Coles versus Johnson, average of last three years:

Coles: 77 catches, 1,112 yards, 6 TDs

Johnson: 62 catches, 950 yards, 5 TDs

Again, before you draw any conclusions, let Chad Johnson show us another year. Currently, Coles is better.

Santana Moss? :doh: You have to be kidding.

Steve Smith? That's almost as ridiculous as Santana Moss. Coles blows Smith out of the water in every category. You're basing your opinion on the hype of a playoff run.

[Eagles_Legendz]

Originally posted by TheDane

Randy Moss, yes. The rest? Very, very questionable.

Anquan Boldin, come on. He had a great rookie season but that's ONE year. If he does it again, we can talk.

Coles versus Johnson, average of last three years:

Coles: 77 catches, 1,112 yards, 6 TDs

Johnson: 62 catches, 950 yards, 5 TDs

Again, before you draw any conclusions, let Chad Johnson show us another year. Currently, Coles is better.

Santana Moss? :doh: You have to be kidding.

Steve Smith? That's almost as ridiculous as Santana Moss. Coles blows Smith out of the water in every category. You're basing your opinion on the hype of a playoff run.

I'd take Moss, Holt, and Chad Johnson. CJ's numbers are skewed compared to Coles because of his rookie season where he barely saw the field. I think his last two years have taken him past Coles (I'd consider him over Owens actually. I think CJ is going to be a very special player).

[TheDane]

Originally posted by Eagles_Legendz

I'd take Moss, Holt, and Chad Johnson. CJ's numbers are skewed compared to Coles because of his rookie season where he barely saw the field. I think his last two years have taken him past Coles (I'd consider him over Owens actually. I think CJ is going to be a very special player).

Holt also, you're right.

CJ's numbers are skewed, but my point was that before anyone anoints Chad Johnson as better than Coles, let's see him perform one more year.

[Lavarisgod]

Coles is the next humble, selfless teamplayer who will become a perrenial all-pro who retires with a ring.

TO is the next selfish, arrogant, indivisual to play soley for himself that will never get a ring.

[RW31]

Honestly does this really matter? You both have great recievers and put out valid points(well, mostly valid) as to why yours is better than theirs.

Besides, Roy Williams scares the crap outta both of them...

[Flowtrain]

Originally posted by Art

You see, the Niners completed the second most passes in football Owens' third year. They attempted the sixth most. It's not all that remarkable to have two 1,000-yard receivers when you throw the ball that much. In fact, it'd be a tremendous surprise if you didn't.

Really? Then where are all these 1000 yd WR duos who also played on all those teams that also dominated with their rushing attack? You've got trios like Holt/Bruce/Faulk and Carter/Moss/Smith. But they're far from ordinary. In fact, they broke NFL scoring records. You'll have better luck finding 1000 yd WR tandems whose teams were light on run attempts, but even those pairings aren't all that commonplace. And when you cull those out, make sure to check to see whether one of the WRs is also a HOF caliber go-to. And once you've done that, check to make sure the WR is also in his 3rd year in the league. Assuming you've got anyone left standing whose name isn't Moss, see if he also had 14 TDs. Once that exercise is complete, we can talk about how remarkable or surprising such a feat is.

Which brings me back to that ugly topic. The one that I mention and you keep waiving your hands in the air, whistling, "Yoohoo, look over here. Don't look there. Look over here instead." McCants TD total in 2003, Chrebet's TD total in 2002 and even Moss's in 2003 are all we need to see on the issue of Coles and his 6 TD/season average. Well, that and they guy he's being compared to who averages 13 TDs over the last 4 years. Each time this topic goes unanswered signals to me another time that it should be reiterated. One can easily overlook Coles' red zone issues in almost any other context. And one should. But when you're placed side-by-side with the game's elite, this becomes fair game.

[KDawg]

I love how Eagle fans are ripping Coles supporters, but they are the first to post such assanine comments as "Santana Moss is equal to Coles"...

Come on you freakin haters... Stop trying to play Devil's Advocate.

[EagleSteve]

Originally posted by KDawg

I love how Eagle fans are ripping Coles supporters, but they are the first to post such assanine comments as "Santana Moss is equal to Coles"...

Come on you freakin haters... Stop trying to play Devil's Advocate.

KDawg,

I think if you paid attention a little bit more, you'd know that Flowtrain is a Jets fan. Eagles fans (nor most others) haven't "ripped" Coles or his supporters. For the most part, this has been a rational discussion about the two players pros and cons. Personally, for the offense the Eagles run and Owen's familiarity and tremendous success in it, I'd take him over Coles for the Eagles in a NY minute, so to speak.

Both excel at their positions. Owens has more experience and has shown greater results because of that and other factors. Coles is younger and will produce outstanding numbers for the near future. Those who "hate" good players aren't very good football fans. :2cents:

[Flowtrain]

Originally posted by Blazers21

KDawg,

I think if you paid attention a little bit more, you'd know that Flowtrain is a Jets fan. Eagles fans (nor most others) haven't "ripped" Coles or his supporters. For the most part, this has been a rational discussion about the two players pros and cons. Personally, for the offense the Eagles run and Owen's familiarity and tremendous success in it, I'd take him over Coles for the Eagles in a NY minute, so to speak.

Both excel at their positions. Owens has more experience and has shown greater results because of that and other factors. Coles is younger and will produce outstanding numbers for the near future. Those who "hate" good players aren't very good football fans. :2cents:

A minor point of clarification. I neither "ripped" Coles nor said he was equal to Santana Moss. It's certain possible to give an edge to one player while continuing to hold the other in high esteem.

[Gamebreaker]

Originally posted by McNabbOwnsFedEx

Better young WR's than Coles:

Chad Johnson (26)

Randy Moss (27, born the same year as Coles)

Anquan Boldin (23)

I'd say Santana Moss(24) and Steve Smith (24) are equal

Moss and Smith have had only one productive season compared to Coles' three. If people are going to use that type of argument aganist Coles with Owens, the same has to apply here.

[Gamebreaker]

Originally posted by Eagles_Legendz

I'd take Moss, Holt, and Chad Johnson. CJ's numbers are skewed compared to Coles because of his rookie season where he barely saw the field. I think his last two years have taken him past Coles (I'd consider him over Owens actually. I think CJ is going to be a very special player).

I don't know for sure why Chad Johnson barely saw the field, maybe it was because of injury. But if's it's a possibility it was because he simply couldn't beat out the current starters, than he has no excuse.

[Eagles_Legendz]

Originally posted by Gamebreaker

I don't know for sure why Chad Johnson barely saw the field, maybe it was because of injury. But if's it's a possibility it was because he simply couldn't beat out the current starters, than he has no excuse.

We aren't comparing whether Coles or Johnson was better as a rookie. We are comparing who is better now. And considering that, I'd put my :2cents: with CJ.