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Next Day Thread: Denver

KDawg

By KDawg
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Skinsinparadise

Skinsinparadise

Posted
Posted (edited)

Giants O line has been terrible.  Last year they had a good run blocking O line but were poor in pass protection.    I hate to root against players but I was rooting against Evan Neal.  I wondered if he was just a slow developing O lineman (he would be far from the first) like his teammate Andrew Thomas or he just sucks.  Looks like he just sucks.

 

I'll give that they played two of the best pass rushing teams in the league -- SF and Dallas.   Their schedule is sort of the opposite of ours starts hard and then gets easier.

 

I am tracking that team because I think we got to finish 3rd to have a serious shot at the playoffs. 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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redskinss

redskinss

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Curious do you want Ron to be the GM next year and going forward?

I know this question wasn't directed at me but I'm gonna answer it anyway. 

 

It depends on how this season plays out.

 

I know, cowardly answer, but its true, if the bills whip our ass and it starts a losing streak and we end up around .500 or worse I'd like to see a new slate.

If the patient approach Rivera has been employing starts to bear more fruit and we win at least ten games with a playoff appearance and hopefully a win I'd like to see Rivera get another year especially if we can somehow keep Bienemy like how the cowboys kept Quinn.

 

It's a pretty general consensus that this roster has a lot of talent and is very close to being top end and I don't know how you can come to that conclusion without giving Ron a lot of credit for it.

It feels like there's a little not seeing the forest for the trees going on there.

 

Everybody just wants to see the absolute most talented players brought in but that's only a portion of what you look for when building your team.

You have to consider talent as well as personality, motivation, work ethic, and so many non quantifiable traits in order to put together a great team that gels into championship caliber.

I still feel like one of Ron's skills is building chemistry and he's only had 3 years here to prove his methods work its still early. 

 

3 of Kyle Shanahans first four seasons in San Fran were losing seasons, his first two were terrible but now he's considered one of the best coaches in the league.

 

5 out of  bill Belichicks first 6 seasons were all losing seasons and we all know how that turned out.

 

I'm not saying he's kyle Shanahan or Bill Belichick just that patience can pay off and if Sam is the answer at quarterback one more offseason filling the holes in the roster and God willing keeping Bienemy for continuity I think this team could be extremely competitive next year.

 

If we clean house they'll most likely be at best a 9 or ten win team as all the new systems are installed and then who knows after that.

 

In summation it's definitely **** or get off the pot time for this staff but if they make the playoffs I'd like to see them get at least one more year.

 

Edited by redskinss
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Skinsinparadise

Skinsinparadise

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49 minutes ago, redskinss said:

 

It's a pretty general consensus that this roster has a lot of talent and is very close to being top end and I don't know how you can come to that conclusion without giving Ron a lot of credit for it.

 

 

 

I and @Koolblue13 in particular were selling hard last year the level of talent on this team.  And we explained it.  We among others more then get it.   

 

But in our view, as i stated 50 million times in various posts, in year 4 you don't just keep this slow burn approach IMHO.  It comes off obnoxious and presumptous to me -- Ron controls everything and acts like he has all the job security to work this at any pace he chooses.  I don't think Ron is obnoxious. He's a nice dude.  I don't think this is his intended vibe.  But that's how his approach comes off to me. 

 

Like he's some dude in a 30 year marriage who knows his wife will never leave him and walks around the house in his underwear, farts constantly and does whatever whim hits him.  It's not as dramatic as that with Ron but that's the best analogy that hits me on a Friday Night. :D

 

It's not about giving Ron credit.  For me and some others the team is more important than Ron and his legacy.  I am not saying you are thinking otherwise.  But my point is these conversations can give the vibe where it feels to me to come off too Ron centric. He is trying to do this or that or maybe he should be appreciated more. 

 

I like Ron but I don't give a rats behind about his feelings and his legacy here.  My bigger point is our expectations should be higher than the 9-7, 10-6 occasional playoff season.  I think Ron is perfectly capable of those type of seasons.  But I am dreaming bigger now. I just want to win big.     To use a restaurant analogy, Ron is Outback.  Solid food.  Consistent.  Steady.  In Dan's era that's more than cool.  And heck for us during the Dan era, that's good food.  But we can dream of a Michelin star level restaurant now, so why not chase a bigger dream?

 

49 minutes ago, redskinss said:

 

It feels like there's a little not seeing the forest for the trees going on there.

 

 

 

Don't think that's the case at all.  Maybe there is one dude here who doesn't like much of anything Ron does where the conversation turns binary.  But just about everyone who makes the case against Ron being the dude running this team with Czar like power -- makes variations of some or all of these points.

 

A.  We got a ceiling of B level work.  That means more good than bad.  But we can do better than that.

B.  Where's the killer instinct to finish the roster? 

C. We don't want ANY coach to have power over the roster.

D.  What other fan base-team would hire Ron to be their GM? (that's one of my points)  And if not, why not?  I dare you to answer this.  Everytime I've posed this question, no one answers it.   😎

 

49 minutes ago, redskinss said:

 

I still feel like one of Ron's skills is building chemistry and he's only had 3 years here to prove his methods work its still early. 

 

 

 

"only" 3 years?  how long does he need.  This feels a lot like Mike Shanahan on the way out suggesting you need 5 years to make a team a winner.  I wanted him gone too in year 4 for very similar reasons that I want Ron gone IF he doesn't make the playoffs this season and win a game.  As I've said many times his future can play out organically -- win or lose.

 

I am not smitten by them winning the first two games.  I predicted it.  I thought they'd rout the Cardinals and eke a close win over Denver.  While they eked out both wins -- no routs, it still more or less fit my expectations.

 

Beat the Bills and that will get my attention.  Better yet, get to the playoffs.  As I mentioned many times this off season, i expected some ups and downs and the ups would include some good feelings where we'd feel like we are headed to the playoffs.  It happened last year and the year before.  But I am not intrigued anymore by the teases.  I know Ron's teams will have flashes.  I want to see the whole season turn out well. 

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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bowhunter

bowhunter

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Posted
3 minutes ago, Est.1974 said:

Yep, that should be what we all want. Nothing personal against Ron but it’s time to move forward......

I have a feeling that if Ron/FO had chased hard after Ivan Pace and we ended up with a nice starting LB, we'd feel differently. The Forbes/Gonzo comparisons have already begun. Strom vs JMS, Mauch vs Martin...lots of stuff to look at. Every GM misses on a few, but at THIS moment it does look like he's done a lot better than most of us give him credit for. I will admit that I would have found a way to have added Darnell Washington in the later rounds as well. But I also wanted Will Grier at one time as well lol

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Thinking Skins

Thinking Skins

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Posted
1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Curious do you want Ron to be the GM next year and going forward?

You know that technically he's not the GM not right? Mayhew is. I like the structure now. If Ron leaves and EB comes in and keeps the same structure I wouldn't have a problem. 

 

We complain, but Ron fixed a big problem here. I loved Kyle Smith, but I like this structure more with our council of GMs. Sure it's not perfect, but I like the way doesn't simply use the draft to start day 1. Some can, but there's a huge learning curve and a rookie wall. Most of our guys have great second years. 

 

So I'm more on favor of keeping Martys than Ron. 

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Skinsinparadise

Skinsinparadise

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

You know that technically he's not the GM not right? Mayhew is. I like the structure now. If Ron leaves and EB comes in and keeps the same structure I wouldn't have a problem. 

 

We complain, but Ron fixed a big problem here. I loved Kyle Smith, but I like this structure more with our council of GMs. Sure it's not perfect, but I like the way doesn't simply use the draft to start day 1. Some can, but there's a huge learning curve and a rookie wall. Most of our guys have great second years. 

 

So I'm more on favor of keeping Martys than Ron. 

 

Ron doesn't have the title but he has final say.  And he has alluded in some interviews that he's overruled the Martys.  I recall Scherff was one of those cases.  Forgetting the other.  But that is just what Ron has opened up to.

 

Belichick, Andy Reid, Carroll also don't have the Gm title but they have final say.  So did Shanny. 

 

As it sounds like you'd like the Marty's to run the team?  

 

 

4 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Before this goes totally off the rails, can I make a request we not turn a post game day thread into a future GM thread. Sorry, I kidof started it with a one sentence reply.  I have seen the error of my ways.  

 

Fair enough

 

giphy.gif

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Koolblue13

Koolblue13

Posted
Posted
21 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Before this goes totally off the rails, can I make a request we not turn a post game day thread into a future GM thread. Sorry, I kidof started it with a one sentence reply.  I have seen the error of my ways.  

This thread dies in two days anyway 

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Skinsinparadise

Skinsinparadise

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I was listening to Cooley on Sheehan.

 

In short, he's a big fan of how Howell is playing -- toughness, accuracy.  Gave him an A for the game.  He also is a fan of how Bieniemy called the game, gave him an A, too.

 

O line he thought was so so in the Denver game.  The only players he criticized on some plays were Barton and Forbes. 

 

 

 

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FootballZombie

FootballZombie

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29 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

In short, he's a big fan of how Howell is playing -- toughness, accuracy.  Gave him an A for the game

 

When the whole team hangs the young QB out to dry and the entire thing is put on his shoulders and he still provides plus football... QB gets a A.

Howell had a lot of mistakes, but I don't care in that situation. They asked him to lift Mjöllnir... and he wiggled it.

Can't really ask for more and you should not really ask for that in the first place.

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Always A Commander Never A Captain

Always A Commander Never A Captain

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I was listening to Cooley on Sheehan.

 

In short, he's a big fan of how Howell is playing -- toughness, accuracy.  Gave him an A for the game.  He also is a fan of how Bieniemy called the game, gave him an A, too.

 

O line he thought was so so in the Denver game.  The only players he criticized on some plays were Barton and Forbes. 

 

 

 

 

I meant to ask you. Is Sheehan still obsessed with the Giants or is he actually acknowledging his preseason takes were wrong? I don't even think it's entirely his fault for being obsessed (only this time) with New York either. NFL media in general was sure they were going to be good, perfect drafts, perfect off-season, etc etc.

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MrJL

MrJL

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Posted
1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I and @Koolblue13 in particular were selling hard last year the level of talent on this team.  And we explained it.  We among others more then get it.   

 

But in our view, as i stated 50 million times in various posts, in year 4 you don't just keep this slow burn approach IMHO.  It comes off obnoxious and presumptous to me -- Ron controls everything and acts like he has all the job security to work this at any pace he chooses.  I don't think Ron is obnoxious. He's a nice dude.  I don't think this is his intended vibe.  But that's how his approach comes off to me. 

 

Like he's some dude in a 30 year marriage who knows his wife will never leave him and walks around the house in his underwear, farts constantly and does whatever whim hits him.  It's not as dramatic as that with Ron but that's the best analogy that hits me on a Friday Night. :D

 

It's not about giving Ron credit.  For me and some others the team is more important than Ron and his legacy.  I am not saying you are thinking otherwise.  But my point is these conversations can give the vibe where it feels to me to come off too Ron centric. He is trying to do this or that or maybe he should be appreciated more. 

 

I like Ron but I don't give a rats behind about his feelings and his legacy here.  My bigger point is our expectations should be higher than the 9-7, 10-6 occasional playoff season.  I think Ron is perfectly capable of those type of seasons.  But I am dreaming bigger now. I just want to win big.     To use a restaurant analogy, Ron is Outback.  Solid food.  Consistent.  Steady.  In Dan's era that's more than cool.  And heck for us during the Dan era, that's good food.  But we can dream of a Michelin star level restaurant now, so why not chase a bigger dream?

 

 

 

 

why should we be expecting more thant 9-7 when he's never had a legit opportunity to  get the key player everyone says you need to get beyond that, a QB?

 

I honestly think if you believe a team needs to be at like 12 or 13 wind by years 4, then if they're only at 8 wins in year 3 you may as well fire them then, because I don't think five or six more wins in one year is likely

 

Of course I don't see  Ron's actions as a sign of security in the job.  More like, there was no one super difference maker, so draft the guy who could contribute no matter who was coach

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Skinsinparadise

Skinsinparadise

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10 hours ago, MrJL said:

 

why should we be expecting more thant 9-7 when he's never had a legit opportunity to  get the key player everyone says you need to get beyond that, a QB?

 

I honestly think if you believe a team needs to be at like 12 or 13 wind by years 4, then if they're only at 8 wins in year 3 you may as well fire them then, because I don't think five or six more wins in one year is likely

 

Of course I don't see  Ron's actions as a sign of security in the job.  More like, there was no one super difference maker, so draft the guy who could contribute no matter who was coach

 

I am trying to avoid answering this stuff in full because I've answered this so many times for months it makes me come off obnoxious about Ron because I've repeated my points so many times.

 

So I'll start by complementing Ron again.   I think he's done a decent job building this roster.  I think their drafting has been good.  I think FA-trades have not been hot.  Overall, I'll give him a B minus.   I think if Ron was kept at the helm, the floor would remain high.  It took me 4 years in to change my opinion about him, after being one of the highest people here on Ron.  And its not that its shifted from being high on him to being low.  It's shifted from him being thinking he's the dude that would incrementally build them into a big winner to I think its a little bit better like  it was with Jay Gruden as to the ceiling on this team.  Maybe a half a peg better.  Their records are very similar. 

 

Ron and Jay are two different cats and have different weaknesses and strengths. but I never felt Jay was the dude to outcoach another in a big spot.  and while he made some good moves pushing for players to the FO -- he and that staff were limited.  There was a ceiling on them.  It never smelled to be like a coaching staff-FO that had greatness in them.  I feel the same about Ron.  I think he can pull off good.  But I do not think he and the Martys are great at their jobs in the FO.  Do I feel confident that in a big game Ron will outwit other coaches with the season on the line?  Nope.  

 

Does that mean I think he's bad at his job?  Not at all.  He's somewhere IMO from decent to even good at his job.  But I lived through the 80s.  I saw Bobby Beathard being arguably the best GM and Gibbs the best coach.  And I think even Ron's defenders would admit that saying Ron is Beathard and Gibbs all in one version -- which would make him Superman level outstanding at his job -- is beyond a ridicuous thought.  Heck Gibbs wasn't even himself and Beathard all in one.

 

So the idea that we'd trust a dude with 3 winning seasons in 12 to be the Czar of this team where we would be trusting that he's magical at football (he'd have to be magical to be both a great GM and a great coach) -- feels to me big time wish casting.  And it feels based on liking the dude.  Ron is a great guy.  I get that.   And also based on the general good feeling we like to have before every season that our team is special and how can we believe that without also thinking that the people running the team are also special.

 

Now to address your point.  Ron IMO has indeed had opportunities to find that QB.  He's failed at it.  It's not easy, I grant that.  But he doesn't have an out on QB with me.  He's swung and missed.  Now Howell may change that narrative and if so that will boost Rivera's legacy here and deservingly so. 

 

As for him drafting-FA.  If you are going all in on Howell.  Help him.  I among others do think building a draft that feels centered on 2024-2025 and not 2023 to help this young QB which arguably Ron's legacy is tied to comes off to me presumptous.   Randy Mueller, ex-GM, who knows Ron and likes him as a dude captured it perfectly with me when he said that Ron acts like he has all the job security in the world and acts like he's on a 10 year plan.   

 

Ron has a new boss.  He hasn't had a winning season yet.  You put your best foot forward IMO now versus an approach that punts so much to next year.  

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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Skinsinparadise

Skinsinparadise

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11 hours ago, Always A Commander Never A Captain said:

 

I meant to ask you. Is Sheehan still obsessed with the Giants or is he actually acknowledging his preseason takes were wrong? I don't even think it's entirely his fault for being obsessed (only this time) with New York either. NFL media in general was sure they were going to be good, perfect drafts, perfect off-season, etc etc.

 

Nope.  But why should he, YET?  It's way early.   

 

The Giants beat Arizona in a close game on the road where they had to come back.  Washington beat Arizona is a close game at home where they had to come back.

 

Other than that the Giants got smoked by arguably the 2 best teams in the NFC this year.  Both teams much better than Denver.  Do you think this team beats Dallas and SF?  Maybe. Probably not.  But we got no idea.   

 

I'll give that the Gaints schedule looks crazy early on.  Their next 3 are Seattle, Dolphins, Buffalo.   So I expect them to be limited.  Especially considering how essential Barkley is to their offense.  So I agree that circumstances seem to weigh against them.  And I do love that. :ols:

 

Look I hate the Giants more than anyone maybe here.  You should see me on the pregame threads when we play them.  I hate them more than Dallas and Philly.  It's personal with me and it goes way back.  I am going to the Giants match up in DC in November. 

 

But the idea that we know that this team is better than Giants or that the Giants stink -- its a 0 out of 100 for me.  We got no idea.  I suspect if we played Dallas and SF we'd also be 1-2.  

 

I predicted 8-9 for this team.  But i also predicted a 2-0 start.   The Cards and Denver were a perfect start for this team because neither team has a pass rush.  Yet we have given up the 2nd most sacks in the league.  Something tells me Parsons and Bosa would have feasted against this team.  But will see. 

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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