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2023 Offseason Mini Camp, OTA’s, Training Camp Discussion Thread: Hallelujah, Josh Harris & Co. Era Edition

Conn

By Conn
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KDawg

KDawg

Posted
Posted
7 minutes ago, formerly4skins said:

 Oof...didn't realize Barton was already named the starter at that spot. 

 

...not a fan of that at all.

 

The neglect this staff has shown to the LB group is damn near criminal, and could very well derail an otherwise strong D this season.


Don’t worry. In a week or two Jon Bostic will be back to save the day.

 

Football Gods: Give me strength.

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KDawg

KDawg

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Just now, KillBill26 said:

Isaiah Simmons to the Giants for a 7th.  Wow.  He had a ton of hype as a do everything athlete coming out of college and just got dumped for table scraps.  Watch him flourish in NY.

This is not great. He was the perfect nickel backer in college. Prototypical. Did it all. Arizona tried to use him as a box backer. If NYG use him on the edges and let him blitz… not good.

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DWinzit

DWinzit

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Posted
Just now, KillBill26 said:

Isaiah Simmons to the Giants for a 7th.  Wow.  He had a ton of hype as a do everything athlete coming out of college and just got dumped for table scraps.  Watch him flourish in NY.

Yup damnit

 

Cardinals traded S Isaiah Simmons to the Giants for a 2024 seventh-round draft pick.

Simmons entered the league as a first-round pick in the 2020 draft and was regarded somewhat as a positionless player. A hybrid defender during his time at Clemson, Simmons’ elite size and athleticism saw him used all over the field, primarily as a linebacker, slot corner, and safety. Unfortunately, he’s struggled to adapt to the NFL. He switched from linebacker to safety earlier this summer, and his hid fifth-year option declined back in May. Now in the final year of his rookie deal, he’ll look to make an impact with the Giants under defensive coordinator Wink Martindale before entering free agency next offseason.

https://www.nbcsports.com/fantasy/football/player-news

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MartinC

MartinC

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38 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

You didn't like the Lions or Falcons draft?

 

For me to take a back 1st round - especially high first round - they need ti be truly generational. I think Robinson has a chance to be that so I dont mind the Falcons pick. As much as I like Gibbs and he can be a real weapon in the right scheme I think the Lions over drafted him. He's not going to be an every down back in the NFL IMO - more of a 2nd back who gets as many touches in the passing game as carrying the ball. I would have liked him more as a 2nd round pick.

1 minute ago, KDawg said:

This is not great. He was the perfect nickel backer in college. Prototypical. Did it all. Arizona tried to use him as a box backer. If NYG use him on the edges and let him blitz… not good.

 

They were using him almost exclusively at safety in preseason and he looked lost.

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KDawg

KDawg

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Just now, MartinC said:

 

For me to take a back 1st round - especially high first round - they need ti be truly generational. I think Robinson has a chance to be that so I dont mind the Falcons pick. As much as I like Gibbs and he can be a real weapon in the right scheme I think the Lions over drafted him. He's not going to be an every down back in the NFL IMO - more of a 2nd back who gets as many touches in the passing game as carrying the ball. I would have liked him more as a 2nd round pick.


I think Gibbs will be the best back in this class. He will have rushing and receiving yards and show his worth fairly quick, too, imo.

1 minute ago, MartinC said:

 

For me to take a back 1st round - especially high first round - they need ti be truly generational. I think Robinson has a chance to be that so I dont mind the Falcons pick. As much as I like Gibbs and he can be a real weapon in the right scheme I think the Lions over drafted him. He's not going to be an every down back in the NFL IMO - more of a 2nd back who gets as many touches in the passing game as carrying the ball. I would have liked him more as a 2nd round pick.

 

They were using him almost exclusively at safety in preseason and he looked lost.


Because he’s been a box backer for 3 years. And he has never been a safety.

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MartinC

MartinC

Posted
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Just now, KDawg said:


I think Gibbs will be the best back in this class. He will have rushing and receiving yards and show his worth fairly quick, too, imo.

 

In the right scheme and used correctly he can be super productive and is a home run threat. He can be a mismatch weapon in the passing game and give you some good carries in the running game. I dont think he will be a high volume carry guy though.

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KDawg

KDawg

Posted
Posted
Just now, MartinC said:

 

In the right scheme and used correctly he can be super productive and is a home run threat. He can be a mismatch weapon in the passing game and give you some good carries in the running game. I dont think he will be a high volume carry guy though.


I don’t think he needs to be. You can get a guy to get 3-4 ypc for cheap. Dynamic playmakers are much harder to get.

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DWinzit

DWinzit

Posted
Posted
3 minutes ago, MartinC said:

 

Agreed - but I would have felt better about him as a 2nd round pick than a 1st rounder.

I find myself more inline with this. 

While not on quite the same level as Gibbs (who is an amazing player and the 12th pick), Achane or Spears in the 3rd round could have been used similarly and show dynamic qualities. 

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KillBill26

KillBill26

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Posted
20 minutes ago, KDawg said:

This is not great. He was the perfect nickel backer in college. Prototypical. Did it all. Arizona tried to use him as a box backer. If NYG use him on the edges and let him blitz… not good.

Too bad one of our 3 GMs couldn't make this phone call first.  And I hate that he went to a division rival.

 

I'm trying to convince myself that Arizona had a good reason to dump him.  With Gannon being a young defensive coach, and he is probably trying to improve a losing culture, maybe Simmons has attitude / work ethics issues.  I'm just speculating bc this is pretty disappointing to see so I'm trying to make myself feel better.  

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KDawg

KDawg

Posted
Posted
Just now, KillBill26 said:

Too bad one of our 3 GMs couldn't make this phone call first.  And I hate that he went to a division rival.

 

I'm trying to convince myself that Arizona had a good reason to dump him.  With Gannon being a young defensive coach, and he is probably trying to improve a losing culture, maybe Simmons has attitude / work ethics issues.  I'm just speculating bc this is pretty disappointing to see so I'm trying to make myself feel better.  

 

I think they are just clearing house. He's in a contract year. 

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redskinss

redskinss

Posted
Posted

Ehh, not too worried about this Simmons trade, guys like this who get traded for peanuts after being a high first round pick by their first team almost never do anything with their second.

The cardinals aren't stupid, if there was a place on the defense where Simmons could flourish they'd have found it.

 

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NoVaSkins21

NoVaSkins21

Posted
Posted

The LB position has been a problem on this team during Rivera's entire tenure and they're happy with the guys they have while other team are addressing their needs.  I get that they believe in the Buffalo Nickel, but's that's a hybrid and not a true LB.  Don't know how Rivera and JDR haven't addressed this position when they played the same position when they were in the league.  

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KillBill26

KillBill26

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Posted
4 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

I think they are just clearing house. He's in a contract year. 

https://www.azcentral.com/story/sports/nfl/cardinals/2023/08/21/arizona-cardinals-isaiah-simmons-slammed-kansas-city-chiefs/70645107007/

 

Just found this.  Lack of effort the other day.  Seems a bit rash and knee jerky to do that with that a guy with that talent especially for peanuts. 

 

But yeah I think Gannon wants to build fresh with his guys.

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Going Commando

Going Commando

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Posted (edited)
43 minutes ago, MartinC said:

For me to take a back 1st round - especially high first round - they need ti be truly generational. I think Robinson has a chance to be that so I dont mind the Falcons pick. As much as I like Gibbs and he can be a real weapon in the right scheme I think the Lions over drafted him. He's not going to be an every down back in the NFL IMO - more of a 2nd back who gets as many touches in the passing game as carrying the ball. I would have liked him more as a 2nd round pick.

 

IMO you are overthinking it.  Go with your gut: would Alvin Kamara be worth a first round pick?  That's what you can get from Jahmyr Gibbs.

 

I'm like you in that I don't think RBs have good position value in terms of team building resources.  The league has made that clear.  Their longevity stinks and a big part of run game productivity comes from having more hats in the box on the play, which goes beyond the back.  But some RBs are worth it because they by themselves are worth a couple of hats, and it's more than just the backs coming with a generational label.  If you get a Probowler with a first round pick, no matter what position he plays, he was worth it.

 

The league has a lot of inefficiency in its RB market. A lot of times these guys are the best players in their classes, but their draft range is all over the map.  Taylor was one of the best players in his class and went in the second.  Deuce Vaughn was one of the best in his and he's a UDFA.  Bijan was too, and he's a top ten pick.  I can never tell any more if the backs I love will go on day one.  I can only tell if I think they will be good players.  I agree with your implied point that the best outcome of all is to snag one of these overlooked gems like Kamara in the middle rounds and they become a special player.  But getting a Christian McCaffrey in the early first is still a great outcome.  Can't get too caught up on gaming out position value--have to always remember that the only truly bad way to spend draft picks is on busts.  BPA drafting is the safest way to avoid that.

Edited by Going Commando
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mhd24

mhd24

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, Going Commando said:

 

IMO you are overthinking it.  Go with your gut: would Alvin Kamara be worth a first round pick?  That's what you can get from Jahmyr Gibbs.

 

I'm like you in that I don't think RBs have good position value in terms of team building resources.  The league has made that clear.  Their longevity stinks and a big part of run game productivity comes from having more hats in the box on the play, which goes beyond the back.  But some RBs are worth it because they by themselves are worth a couple of hats, and it's more than just the backs coming with a generational label.  If you get a Probowler with a first round pick, no matter what position he plays, he was worth it.

 

The league has a lot of inefficiency in its RB market. A lot of times these guys are the best players in their classes, but their draft range is all over the map.  Taylor was one of the best players in his class and went in the second.  Deuce Vaughn was one of the best in his and he's a UDFA.  Bijan was too, and he's a top ten pick.  I can never tell any more if the backs I love will go on day one.  I can only tell if I think they will be good players.  I agree with your implied point that the best outcome of all is to snag one of these overlooked gems like Kamara in the middle rounds and they become a special player.  But getting a Christian McCaffrey in the early first is still a great outcome.  Can't get too caught up on gaming out position value--have to always remember that the only truly bad way to spend draft picks is on busts.  BPA drafting is the safest way to avoid that.

 

 

100% spot on GC.  I was the biggest Bijan fan in the draft.  In short order, he'll be the best RB in football.  Gibbs is also going to be a really good player.  Detroit isn't stupid.  They traded Swift for a reason.  They probably had Gibbs as a top 10 player in this draft.  

 

Just take good players in the first round and you'll be fine.  Ron's biggest mistake during his tenure was passing on Darrisaw for Jamin (Not taking Herbert is 100% a hindsight move as Chase was a consensus #2 pick for a reason).  His best move may be the trade down that eventually netted us Dotson, Robinson, Howell, and Turner.  

 

 

Just now, 757SeanTaylor21 said:

Wish we kicked the tires on Simmons...surprised eagles didn't tho

 

Arizona is in a complete rebuild situation and they traded him for a reason.  That tells you something.  The whole NFL could have gotten him and the best Zona got was a 7th.  That tells you something.  Dallas just lost a LB to an ACL and they didn't even offer anything.  That tells you something.  

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757SeanTaylor21

757SeanTaylor21

Posted
Posted
6 minutes ago, mhd24 said:

 

 

Arizona is in a complete rebuild situation and they traded him for a reason.  That tells you something.  The whole NFL could have gotten him and the best Zona got was a 7th.  That tells you something.  Dallas just lost a LB to an ACL and they didn't even offer anything.  That tells you something.  

Let me tell you something...I play madden and want a fast lb 😂😂😂😂

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Going Commando

Going Commando

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Posted
45 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Because he’s been a box backer for 3 years. And he has never been a safety.

 

He played safety at Clemson his breakout season, but his safety days are long gone.  I guess they were thinking they might be able to save his career by switching things up, maybe trying him as a big box safety but he was never a Kam Chancellor, and that kind of player just doesn't work in split safety defense.

 

His run defense isn't his issue, although I never really felt like he was a very physical player.  His coverage is his weakness. It's the same weakness of a ton of linebackers.  I'm wondering if he's capable of just playing man and using his speed to rejuvenate his career in a new setting, or if the Giants are just going to try and hide him in shallow middle zones and hope he makes enough plays in the run game to be good.

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