Sam's Club: The Legend of Samuel Howell Thread

[FlyBigBeard]

11 hours ago, shemp nixon said:

I think people are overrating Brissett. He's a solid game manager, but  Howell's ceiling is much higher.

Exactly, Brissett is a backup nothing more. Sam is the future, unless he shows otherwise. 

[wit33]

Brisset is a poor mans Alex Smith.
 

He will dominate the intangibles and be good to great managing a game. 

 

This level of QB can beat Daniel Jones or Dak Prescott (and most other NFC QBs), they all are in 70% QB competence pool. 

[Est.1974]

12 hours ago, shemp nixon said:

I think people are overrating Brissett. He's a solid game manager, but  Howell's ceiling is much higher.

I don’t think people are. I personally agree with what you have stated about their abilities. Doesn’t mean Rivera starts the guy with a higher ceiling...

[illone]

12 hours ago, shemp nixon said:

I think people are overrating Brissett. He's a solid game manager, but  Howell's ceiling is much higher.

 

 

Well, all I really meant is that he is slightly better than what we had last year.  That doesn't mean he is the long-term answer in Washington.

 

I feel way more confident with Howell/Brissett than the $28 million dollar dud, but perhaps it's my severe case of Ashburn syndrome lol. 

 

[D’Pablo]

“You don’t draft the guy because he did well on … his S2, but if it confirms what you saw on tape — if something in that test confirms what you saw on tape and confirms the reasons why you liked it — then that becomes a factor,” Commanders general manager Martin Mayhew said at the combine. “If it contradicts what you saw, maybe you go back and look again to see if you can see what the test is trying to tell you.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2023/03/21/nfl-s2-cognition-quarterbacks/

 

“Sam will have every opportunity to win that starting job,” Mayhew said of his young quarterback. “I was very impressed with the way that he played and practiced last year. Obviously very small sample, he only played in one game, but we got to see him the whole offseason. We gotta see him all through training camp, every week in practice. He has the skills that it takes to be a starter in this league, in my opinion.”

 

https://commanderswire.usatoday.com/2023/03/02/commanders-gm-martin-mayhew-impressed-with-sam-howell/
 

🤔 

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, D’Pablo said:

“You don’t draft the guy because he did well on … his S2, but if it confirms what you saw on tape — if something in that test confirms what you saw on tape and confirms the reasons why you liked it — then that becomes a factor,” Commanders general manager Martin Mayhew said at the combine. “If it contradicts what you saw, maybe you go back and look again to see if you can see what the test is trying to tell you.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2023/03/21/nfl-s2-cognition-quarterbacks/

 

“Sam will have every opportunity to win that starting job,” Mayhew said of his young quarterback. “I was very impressed with the way that he played and practiced last year. Obviously very small sample, he only played in one game, but we got to see him the whole offseason. We gotta see him all through training camp, every week in practice. He has the skills that it takes to be a starter in this league, in my opinion.”

 

https://commanderswire.usatoday.com/2023/03/02/commanders-gm-martin-mayhew-impressed-with-sam-howell/
 

🤔

 

 

 

Just read the article.  It's interesting to me because it plays into what Bruce Arians said about QBs in his book which I referenced in other posts over the years.  His thought is every QB can process what's going on in the field if you give them time, but to succeed in the NFL its about your ability to process things in super quick speed, and those QBs who can do that everything being equal tend to be successful.

 

How one cognitive test could help NFL teams find the next elite quarterback

Quarterbacks are priceless in the NFL, and the difference between a pretty good one and exceptional one can be the difference between a playoff drought and a Super Bowl run. Moving up in the draft can improve a team’s odds of choosing a superstar, but that’s only half the challenge. Land a better pick, and a team still has to pick the right player — a decision that’s not just about arm strength or mobility or height or hand size. It’s also about a player’s ability to process information amid a barrage of distractions.

 

 

...Co-founded in 2014 by two neuroscientists who were college athletes, S2 has developed testing batteries for nine different sports. It has tested roughly 3,500 draft-eligible prospects and 150 quarterbacks (including NFL veterans), and its measures, according to a recent study, have more accurately reflected quarterbacks’ career NFL passer ratings than the Wonderlic, an intelligence test developed in the 1930s that the NFL used until last year.

 

Patrick Mahomes was one of the top performers on the S2 evaluation. So was Joe Burrow, who ranked in the 97th percentile, and Brock Purdy, who didn’t have the athleticism or production at Iowa State to stand out in the draft but shocked the league when he took over for the 49ers last season.

 

...Unlike the Wonderlic, which measures reasoning and problem-solving in everyday life, or the Athletic Intelligence Quotient (AIQ) test, which is geared toward quick decision-making and spatial awareness, the S2 evaluation was created to gauge how players think on the field.

 

For instance, the maze test that’s included on some of the classic intelligence tests, like the Wonderlic and AIQ, can help assess mental processing, but it doesn’t account for time. A quarterback doesn’t have minutes after the snap; he has couple of seconds to find his target and hit a tight window before a pass rusher collides into him. On the other hand, one of S2′s speed cognition tests flashes a diamond missing a corner. A player has to quickly report which corner is missing, which could take anywhere from 0.015 seconds to 0.2 seconds.

 

...S2’s data can help a team determine whether a player can see the whole field, whether he can sift through chaos to track objects. It can show how a player filters through complex decisions: If the corner does this, then I’ll run this route, but if he does that, then I’ll run that route. S2 can also test how well a player picks up on tendencies or notices subtle tells from an opponent. It can evaluate a player’s ability to focus while facing distractions and how well he can improvise when his original plan breaks down.

“You see your rigid thinkers,” Ally said, “those guys that just stand there in the pocket and end up taking the sack just because they’re expecting something to happen and it’s not, and their brain is just conflicted.”

Edited March 21, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Conn]

19 hours ago, tmandoug1 said:

Brissett would have taken us to the playoffs this year.....not sure how someone comes up with that tidbit. His 5th team in 7 years..........all of those other coaches must be idiots not to see his potential. Hope is the greatest feeling of all. Howell needs to play 21 games straight. I do not want to see Brissett unless Howell gets hurt....

This comment doesn’t reflect on Howell at all, I want to see him play every single snap this year unless he’s a disaster…but you should try watching Brissett from last year. Easily gets us into the playoffs. You’re doing yourself a disservice just looking at whatever simple counting stats or box scores you’re looking at. I’m guessing you’re in absolute disbelief over Geno Smith’s play last year?

Edited March 21, 2023 by Conn

[wit33]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Just read the article.  It's interesting to me because it plays into what Bruce Arians said about QBs in his book which I referenced in other posts over the years.  His thought is every QB can process what's going on in the field if you give them time, but to succeed in the NFL its about your ability to process things in super quick speed, and those QBs who can do that everything being equal tend to be successful.

 

How one cognitive test could help NFL teams find the next elite quarterback

Quarterbacks are priceless in the NFL, and the difference between a pretty good one and exceptional one can be the difference between a playoff drought and a Super Bowl run. Moving up in the draft can improve a team’s odds of choosing a superstar, but that’s only half the challenge. Land a better pick, and a team still has to pick the right player — a decision that’s not just about arm strength or mobility or height or hand size. It’s also about a player’s ability to process information amid a barrage of distractions.

 

 

...Co-founded in 2014 by two neuroscientists who were college athletes, S2 has developed testing batteries for nine different sports. It has tested roughly 3,500 draft-eligible prospects and 150 quarterbacks (including NFL veterans), and its measures, according to a recent study, have more accurately reflected quarterbacks’ career NFL passer ratings than the Wonderlic, an intelligence test developed in the 1930s that the NFL used until last year.

 

Patrick Mahomes was one of the top performers on the S2 evaluation. So was Joe Burrow, who ranked in the 97th percentile, and Brock Purdy, who didn’t have the athleticism or production at Iowa State to stand out in the draft but shocked the league when he took over for the 49ers last season.

 

...Unlike the Wonderlic, which measures reasoning and problem-solving in everyday life, or the Athletic Intelligence Quotient (AIQ) test, which is geared toward quick decision-making and spatial awareness, the S2 evaluation was created to gauge how players think on the field.

 

For instance, the maze test that’s included on some of the classic intelligence tests, like the Wonderlic and AIQ, can help assess mental processing, but it doesn’t account for time. A quarterback doesn’t have minutes after the snap; he has couple of seconds to find his target and hit a tight window before a pass rusher collides into him. On the other hand, one of S2′s speed cognition tests flashes a diamond missing a corner. A player has to quickly report which corner is missing, which could take anywhere from 0.015 seconds to 0.2 seconds.

 

...S2’s data can help a team determine whether a player can see the whole field, whether he can sift through chaos to track objects. It can show how a player filters through complex decisions: If the corner does this, then I’ll run this route, but if he does that, then I’ll run that route. S2 can also test how well a player picks up on tendencies or notices subtle tells from an opponent. It can evaluate a player’s ability to focus while facing distractions and how well he can improvise when his original plan breaks down.

“You see your rigid thinkers,” Ally said, “those guys that just stand there in the pocket and end up taking the sack just because they’re expecting something to happen and it’s not, and their brain is just conflicted.”

I know a few “rigid thinkers” in here lol

 

Love this kind of stuff. Obviously what’s been used doesn’t work. Continue to seek alternative pathways. 

[Skinsinparadise]

27 minutes ago, wit33 said:

I know a few “rigid thinkers” in here lol

 

Love this kind of stuff. Obviously what’s been used doesn’t work. Continue to seek alternative pathways. 

 

As Arians explains its really hard to nail down college QBs to the pros because of 2 things.

 

A.  Quick processing -- can they see the field and process everything that's going on in a split second.  Tough to tell until you have that QB in your building.

 

B.  Work ethic, not all QBs work the same level.  Arians said its critical to be a workaholic for 2 key reasons.  

 

1.  He likened it to a sharpening a golf swing.  The QBs obsessed with their mechanics and fine tuning them again and again and again, develop that muscle memory. Those QBs that have inconsistent mechanics according to Arians also often aren't the hardest workers as to fine tuning their mechanics.

 

2.  Defense coordinators work like mad to foil opposing offenses and QBs -- they study and dissect the QB's weakneses.  The Qb in turn needs to study the upcoming defense to in effect match wits with the defensive coordinator.  If your QB gets outworked by the opposing defensive coordinator, you'll often see that play out during the game.

 

It's more than just those variables according to Arians but he really stressed the heck out of those two things.  He's also a big leadership guy as to its importance from that spot.

 

For example your boy, Kirk Cousins, Shanny said he knew within a week that he had "it".  Understood the position and the work ethic was evident.  Shanny said you can usually tell fast once the QB is in the building but its extremely hard assessing it from afar.

[tmandoug1]

3 hours ago, Conn said:

This comment doesn’t reflect on Howell at all, I want to see him play every single snap this year unless he’s a disaster…but you should try watching Brissett from last year. Easily gets us into the playoffs. You’re doing yourself a disservice just looking at whatever simple counting stats or box scores you’re looking at. I’m guessing you’re in absolute disbelief over Geno Smith’s play last year?

Cleveland had the number 4 ranked Oline last year. I said if Howell gets hurt not disaster. If Brissett wins the job and takes us to the SB none of this matters and you can come back and say see, I was right and all of his previous coaches were wrong. What does Geno Smith have to do with anything other than the fact he is two levels above Brissett. Maybe you should check the stats and box scores and see why Geno is better than Brisett,  start at PFF.  Just in case you can't see the difference Seattle had the 27th ranked oline and Geno smoked him anyway. I would have zero problems with Geno here....zero.

 

Brisett is on his 5th team for a reason.......can't be schemes and coaches after 5 teams. Someone would have seen his upside and coached to it.

 

Not sure why you brought up Geno though.....kind of weird.

 

 

[Conn]

22 minutes ago, tmandoug1 said:

Cleveland had the number 4 ranked Oline last year. I said if Howell gets hurt not disaster. If Brissett wins the job and takes us to the SB none of this matters and you can come back and say see, I was right and all of his previous coaches were wrong. What does Geno Smith have to do with anything other than the fact he is two levels above Brissett. Maybe you should check the stats and box scores and see why Geno is better than Brisett,  start at PFF.  Just in case you can't see the difference Seattle had the 27th ranked oline and Geno smoked him anyway. I would have zero problems with Geno here....zero.

 

Brisett is on his 5th team for a reason.......can't be schemes and coaches after 5 teams. Someone would have seen his upside and coached to it.

 

Not sure why you brought up Geno though.....kind of weird.

 

 

 

So…the answer is that you will not watch what the QB we signed actually looked like last year, you will continue to talk about how many teams he’s been on. Fair enough, it’s your right. Not much to talk about on the topic going forward, though. 
 

If you can’t see why I brought up Geno, who was also on a bunch of teams and steadily improved until opportunity met experience and clicked, idk what to tell you. I’m not even arguing that Brissett will continue to develop like Geno did (or maybe Geno’s comeback year was a fluke!), like I said—I want Howell to get every snap. I’m simply arguing that QB development is not linear and it’s foolish for you to brush the dude off, with confident arrogance, without even going and watching with your own eyes how he played last year. He’s on our roster now and might very well play this season, you have the ability to look deeper into it than “he’s been on 5 teams”. That’s really all I’m saying. I’m not arguing the dude is elite or even top-15. Just not the trash you’re determined to label him as.

[Skinsinparadise]

8 hours ago, Conn said:

 

So…the answer is that you will not watch what the QB we signed actually looked like last year, you will continue to talk about how many teams he’s been on. Fair enough, it’s your right. Not much to talk about on the topic going forward, though. 
 

If you can’t see why I brought up Geno, who was also on a bunch of teams and steadily improved until opportunity met experience and clicked, idk what to tell you. I’m not even arguing that Brissett will continue to develop like Geno did (or maybe Geno’s comeback year was a fluke!), like I said—I want Howell to get every snap. I’m simply arguing that QB development is not linear and it’s foolish for you to brush the dude off, with confident arrogance, without even going and watching with your own eyes how he played last year. He’s on our roster now and might very well play this season, you have the ability to look deeper into it than “he’s been on 5 teams”. That’s really all I’m saying. I’m not arguing the dude is elite or even top-15. Just not the trash you’re determined to label him as.

 

Agree with your point.  Listening to the Browns reporters talk about Brissett wow does it feel night and day from the talk about Wentz last off season.  They love the guy as a dude and to some extent as a player, too.   They tout his arm, mobility, toughness in the pocket, rarely causes turnovers.  And yeah ironically the Geno Smith arc was discussed and whether there can be something similar with Brissett.

 

For me, I don't know.  But its far from a crazy analogy if anything Jacoby has shown more signs of a breakout than Geno did before Geno broke out.   And I am a big intangibles guys when it comes to QB if it accompanies good play.  if you put up stats AND the intangibles are billed, that gets my attention.  Among the QBs we've had the ones billed for the locker room stuff I'd say would be Alex Smith, Fitz (although it didn't take here because he didn't pay) and Taylor.  I've heard just about all the stories about those dudes.  The stories about Brissett seems to be in even higher orbit.  He writes individual notes to every player before games, brings them baked goods, goes out with them.  Hilarious in the locker room.  Players swear by him.  On and on on.    

 

Again, don't know if he has a Geno like arc but the concept is far from crazy.

 

Geno Smith with a 79.8 rating from PFF and his best season.  The last time he played as a full timre starter before that 57.1.

 

Jacoby Brissett with 82.6 rating from PFF.  In a part time-role he was in the mid 70s the previous two seasons.

 

QBR scores basically identical 60.9 for Geno, 60 for Brissett.  45.8 was Geno's score the last time he was full time starter.

 

Heinicke in contrast had a 49.8 PFF score.  44.4 QBR

 

He was probably one of the most in demand FAs judging by rumors including interest from the Eagles. That's why he got the biggest salary among these backups.

 

 

https://www.indystar.com/story/sports/nfl/colts/2017/09/12/insider-brissetts-big-arm-more-compatible-colts/654282001/

Brissett provides a cannon of a throwing arm. The Colts saw a glimpse just moments after Brissett entered Sunday’s game. He delivered a 50-yard bomb to receiver Donte Moncrief that traveled nearly 60 yards through the air. It seemed effortless for Brissett, and it provided a preview of what might be at the Colts’ disposal if he starts.

 

But what was most applicable to the Colts was his arm strength, which was evident on both short routes and long ones. 

 

https://www.clevelandbrowns.com/news/browns-100-percent-believe-in-qb-jacoby-brissett

 

Based on what other Browns players have said about him so far, he's done an excellent job of bringing the locker room together. They have full faith in him to navigate through the first three months of the season and maintain the close chemistry the group has built over the offseason through several team-bonding activities.

Those activities include a trip to a historic baseball park last week in Jacksonville, a visit to the Pro Football Hall of Fame during minicamp and a visit to the Cleveland Cavaliers’ practice facility — where Brissett won the team's 3-point contest.

 

"We 100 percent believe in him," Amari Cooper said. "He would not be back there if we did not. (We're) not really worried about what outsiders say. We're just going to go out there and do our thing."

Nick Chubb seconded those remarks and enjoys the demeanor Brissett brings to work every day.

"He's a funny guy," he said. "He is fun to be around. He's always so serious, but it's in a fun, facetious way. He's a great guy to be around."

To Brissett, being a good teammate and staying true to who he is matters more than meeting expectations — although that's not to say he won't work to meet them.

Every day in practice, Brissett has been doing what a good quarterback should do: talking with teammates when a play breaks down or when something can be corrected and celebrating with them when all goes right. Performance-wise, he's shown an excellent ability to take care of the ball by rarely throwing interceptions and has been able to take whatever the defense gives him.

Brissett is smart, so smart that LB Jeremiah Owusu-Kormaoah referred to him as "the shaman," and someone the team looks to for wisdom.

"He has the wisdom we're all trying to get," Owusu-Koramoah said.

Head coach Kevin Stefanski has seen Brissett spread that wisdom across the team in the months of preseason preparation.

 

Edited March 22, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[DJHJR86]

On 3/21/2023 at 12:35 AM, shemp nixon said:

I think people are overrating Brissett. He's a solid game manager, but  Howell's ceiling is much higher.

 

It's crazy to me.  He's gotten the chance to be the guy twice with the Colts.  Both times were average at best.  Team immediately had a winning record when Luck was healthy and when they revived Philip Rivers for one final season.  I hope we only see him in the preseason.  

[tmandoug1]

10 hours ago, Conn said:

 

So…the answer is that you will not watch what the QB we signed actually looked like last year, you will continue to talk about how many teams he’s been on. Fair enough, it’s your right. Not much to talk about on the topic going forward, though. 
 

If you can’t see why I brought up Geno, who was also on a bunch of teams and steadily improved until opportunity met experience and clicked, idk what to tell you. I’m not even arguing that Brissett will continue to develop like Geno did (or maybe Geno’s comeback year was a fluke!), like I said—I want Howell to get every snap. I’m simply arguing that QB development is not linear and it’s foolish for you to brush the dude off, with confident arrogance, without even going and watching with your own eyes how he played last year. He’s on our roster now and might very well play this season, you have the ability to look deeper into it than “he’s been on 5 teams”. That’s really all I’m saying. I’m not arguing the dude is elite or even top-15. Just not the trash you’re determined to label him as.

Yeah your right this conversation is over. I have watched him play, I haven't brushed him off with "confidant arrogance", and I never said he was trash. I said I didn't want to see him start over Howell until he's either injured or has 21 games played. Then someone said he would have taken this team to the playoffs last year and I brushed that **** off with confidant arrogance. He played on a superior offense last year and did well, we didn't and still don't have a superior offense. I'm glad he is here because he is a good backup and will most likely start by the 3rd or 4th game if we don't improve our oline.

 

Peace

[Skinsinparadise]

Listening to Logan Paulsen who studied Brissett's games recently.

 

A.  Looked like a bonafide starter

B.  They would have easily made the playoffs if he started last season here

C.  He's pretty high on him as a security blanket here.

 

As far as the Howell vs Brissett stuff.  I am big on Howell, I am optimistic about him.  I don't think it has to be one versus the other.  I think he's a good fit because he will push Howell and if he needs to play the offense should be fine.

[HigSkin]

 

[woodpecker]

Hey, I hear a certain available franchise quarterback who plays just north of here is backing off his demand for a fully guaranteed contract.

 

 

**jumps in fox hole and ducks for cover**

[mistertim]

42 minutes ago, woodpecker said:

Hey, I hear a certain available franchise quarterback who plays just north of here is backing off his demand for a fully guaranteed contract.

 

 

**jumps in fox hole and ducks for cover**

 

[Skinsinparadise]

Nice to be in the NFC versus AFC

 

 

 

[ntotoro]

I'm not sure whether I want to clown Robert or the overall talent level of NFC QB's.

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

The NFC QB talent can't be that bad right?

 

Stafford's arm is shot and Brady retired.  Hmm, Fields and Goff are in contention for that list too.

On 3/21/2023 at 4:00 PM, D’Pablo said:

“You don’t draft the guy because he did well on … his S2, but if it confirms what you saw on tape — if something in that test confirms what you saw on tape and confirms the reasons why you liked it — then that becomes a factor,” Commanders general manager Martin Mayhew said at the combine. “If it contradicts what you saw, maybe you go back and look again to see if you can see what the test is trying to tell you.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2023/03/21/nfl-s2-cognition-quarterbacks/

 

“Sam will have every opportunity to win that starting job,” Mayhew said of his young quarterback. “I was very impressed with the way that he played and practiced last year. Obviously very small sample, he only played in one game, but we got to see him the whole offseason. We gotta see him all through training camp, every week in practice. He has the skills that it takes to be a starter in this league, in my opinion.”

 

https://commanderswire.usatoday.com/2023/03/02/commanders-gm-martin-mayhew-impressed-with-sam-howell/
 

🤔

 

 

 

Do we know Howell's S2 scores?

[wit33]

2 hours ago, Always A Commander Never A Captain said:

The NFC QB talent can't be that bad right?

 

Stafford's arm is shot and Brady retired.  Hmm, Fields and Goff are in contention for that list too.

 

Do we know Howell's S2 scores?

Whatever kid running their social media forgot Goff. 

Edited March 23, 2023 by wit33

[HigSkin]

2 hours ago, Always A Commander Never A Captain said:

Do we know Howell's S2 scores?

 

I had to it look up because I've not heard of it! LOL

 

I did find out researching it's privileged info and the player has to agree to let it release.

 

He couldn’t give out Purdy’s exact score because it’s privileged information but said it was in the “mid 90s.” That’s about where Brees, the former Saints quarterback famous for lightning-fast decision-making, scored and where two of the top passers in the league now, the Chiefs’ Patrick Mahomes and the Bills’ Josh Allen, also landed. The Bengals’ Joe Burrow took the test while at LSU and agreed to allow S2 to disclose the information.

Of course he did — he scored in the 97th percentile.

“We consider anything above the 80th percentile to be elite,” Ally said.

 

https://www.s2cognition.com/football

 

In the NFL, milliseconds define making a play or getting beat. What separates wins and losses are gamers who have an ability to make the right split-second decisions on the field. S2's sports-science evaluates cognitive abilities in game situations so that players understand the level of their instincts. Anticipation, reading, reacting, and adapting to the game are now measurable skills.

[bearrock]

https://theathletic.com/4226466/2023/02/24/nfl-quarterbacks-s2-cognition-test?source=user-shared-article

 

Quote

The question every general manager will be asking between now and the April draft is which quarterback is the next Brock Purdy, the passer everyone overlooks because he’s not physically imposing but whose brain can help salvage a season? Ally said he couldn’t divulge scores, but he did say the 2023 quarterback results were dramatically better than last year when only Purdy and one other quarterback scored above the 90th percentile.

 

Hmm.... 🤔

[88Comrade2000]

Ron is going to go with the qb that will win him games. It’s playoffs or goodbye Ron. So, if Sam is the qb; he will clearly have to outperform Jacoby. If Jacoby outperforms Sam, he will be day one starter.

 

Now if Sam is the day one starter, he will have to play well. If he’s struggling a lot; he will get benched for Jacoby.