Next Day Thread: Lions Command Respect

[JSSkinz]

I really didn't have any misconceptions about what we were as a team coming into this season. I figured we were somewhere between 6 and 9 wins maybe we hit 10 if we get a little luck.

 

But even if our defense is not very talented we should still with solid coaching be able to cut down on the chunk plays which are getting ridiculous after only 2 weeks. It's unacceptable regardless of talent level in my opinion.

[Ball Security]

3 hours ago, ColonialWBSkinsFan said:

Yes, that's correct.  BOTH were analytically the correct calls, and (as 2-pointers are basically a 50/50 proposition anyway), we made one 2 pt-er and missed one.  The true killer was the missed PAT by Slye on the TD that cut it to 36-27.  If he makes that kick, after we get the ball back with 1:35 left, we are down 8 instead of 9, clearly a HUGE difference.  Ahead by only 8, maybe Detroit doesn't pin their ears back completely and come after the QB, knowing that they could still be tied by a TD and 2 pt-er.  Up 9, there was really no downside to sending the cavalry after him.  (And in the process injuring our starting center...)   Getting pissed all over again just thinking about that PAT miss...

It’s not what the Dolphins did yesterday down 21 in the fourth.  They did just fine.

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

Larson should be back for TN though, right.  It’s a shame for Chase.  Two years in a row.

[Voice_of_Reason]

Ok, having had a little bit of time to sleep on the game, here are my impressions:

 

1. The first half, the whole offense was blown up because the OL couldn't block anybody.  Turner might be a real problem if he has to play.  Which, most likely he will, because Rouiller is probably out for a while, and even if Wes Schweitzer comes back, he'll have to play center.  

 

2. They need to get another OL or 2 who they think can play into the rotation.  If they need to call Flowers and see if he's still in shape and can play, then they need to do that.  

 

3. I didn't really have an issue with letting Flowers go, and replacing him with Norwell.  Paying Scherff was never a good idea.  So, I was fine with letting him walk.  But they need an upgrade somewhere.  They can't let the OL completely derail the entire offense.  

 

4. Wentz is going to be Wentz.  He's going to make a lot of really good throws, a few bad throws.  He's on pace to throw something like 56 TDs. I don't think that's going to hold up over time (especially if the OL falls apart), but he's going to keep slinging it, and some good things are going to happen.  There will be the odd high-pass, sometimes those will get picked off.  I'll take the good with the bad, at least so far.

 

5. This was a bad game for Ron.  I like Ron, I believe in Ron, and I think he's absolutely the best we can get right now, if we lose him, we're not getting one of the top candidates to come in here, either for a FO position or a HC position.  This doesn't mean he is perfect.  I think he probably should have just kicked the EP when he had the chance, though I'm not sure it would have mattered, since the defense just couldn't get a stop.

 

6. The defense is massively disappointing for one big reason: the individual pieces seem to be better than the sum of the parts.  I'm not sure why that is, but something is off.  I do wonder if it's something to do with the fact Jack has a bunch of assistant coaches which Ron picked.  There are personnel gaps.  Losing Curl is a big loss.  

 

7. I don't think it can be overstated how important losing Phil Mathis is.  He was the guy they picked to basically clog the middle and stop the interior run game.  They moved from Matt I. to Mathis, essentially.  Mathis was going to be a big part of stopping the interior run, allowing Allen and Payne to play more up-field.  By losing him in the first game, it put a huge hole in their plans.

 

8. I don't know what they can do about it now, but WJIII has been a disaster of a FA signing.  They could cut him after this season and take a $9M cap hit.  

 

9. I think I'm starting to see why they didn't pay Payne.  It doesn't really seem to matter who the DL coach is, who the DC is, or who the HC is, that unit just hasn't been consistent at all.  And given it has 4 first round picks on it, (granted, one is hurt), it needs to be better.  I think there is a chance they could blow the whole thing up.  

 

10. I'm not sure how they fix the defense.  They kindof have who they have, and they have to figure it out.  I don't think firing Jack now is going to help.  Though I wouldn't be opposed to it.

 

11. A word on Davis.  He had several impactful plays yesterday, might have been his best game.  

 

12. Missing Curl really hurts the secondary. I like Forest.  But Forest is not Curl.  

2 hours ago, JSSkinz said:

I really didn't have any misconceptions about what we were as a team coming into this season. I figured we were somewhere between 6 and 9 wins maybe we hit 10 if we get a little luck.

I think the schedule might just prove out that both Detroit and Jax are actually really good teams.  

 

Which is one of the reasons why I kept saying "pump the brakes on the easy schedule" thing.  Jax might win their division.  Detroit might win 8-9 games also.  

 

I said we would be between 10-11 wins.  I still think they will get there, actually.  At lest, I'm going to keep thinking that for 2 more weeks, until they prove me wrong.  

 

I figured they would get through the first quarter of the season at 2-2 or 3-1 for my prediction to be correct.  They have to split with the Eagles and Cowboys.  Which they can do.  

 

The NFL is so week to week.  They could give the Eagles all they want and more.  Or they could lay another egg.

[Voice_of_Reason]

4 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

This team ha)s struggled to find marquee stars for Dan's whole tenure.  Its odd.  We can find very good players.  Buy we struggle to find elite guys.  Trent the exception. 

If Wentz throws 50 TDs this year, he's going to become a big star.  Even if it is accompanied by 20 INTs.  (Btw, I would take 50 TDs and 20 INTs, for what it's worth.) I'm not saying he will.  But he is on pace for 59 right now, so ... Maybe?  

 

Also, if he pulls that off, McLaurin and probably Dotson are going to also have star status elevated.  Because somebody has to catch those TDs.  

 

They'll be on SportsCenter a lot.  That helps to make big stars.  

 

At the moment, that's one of my biggest rooting interests.  I want to see Wentz SHATTER all of Kirk's records, and I want to see McLaurin, Dotson and Samuel absolutely crush it as playmakers.  

 

If they get on TV a lot with good offense, I think that's going to generate excitement.  Even if the defense just goes (makes farting sound.)

 

The key is going to be the OL.  They have to hold up.  If they do, this is a top 5 offense.  If they don't, it's middle of the pack.  

 

4 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I hate to say this considering I am a big Antonio Gibson guy in general but I think he's off to a poor start.  Getting him back along with Curl and Chase might help in a big way.  Will see. 

He ran well in the limited chances last week.  But he's not a good between the tackle running.  

 

Getting BRobinson back will be beneficial.  

 

Curl could be huge.  

 

Chase, my expectations are he will do nothing this year at all, and they should keep him out the entire year and have him 100% ready next year.  I'd much prefer him not show up at 75% or 80% and then hear all the noise about how he is a huge bust.  

[Skinsinparadise]

3 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

 

He ran well in the limited chances last week.  But he's not a good between the tackle running.  

 

2 ypc?

[Ball Security]

A lot of negativity for yesterday to go around.  So I’ll call out Samuel’s toughness on two catches, including the TD, where he got popped.  Dotson is a stud. It’s an excellent trio.

 

At the beginning of the game, Detroit was attacking with LBers. Wentz had several step drops and the line couldn’t hold up.  Toss in more screens and let those guys beat them one on one.

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

2 ypc?

No, sorry, I meant against the Jags.

 

 

I thought he had a really good game against the Jags.  Caught the ball well, ran well.  Actually led the team in receiving and rushing yardage:

 

 

 

He had a BAD game against the Lions. 

[Voice_of_Reason]

43 minutes ago, Ball Security said:

A lot of negativity for yesterday to go around.  So I’ll call out Samuel’s toughness on two catches, including the TD, where he got popped.  Dotson is a stud. It’s an excellent trio.

I'll add another couple of positives:
 

- Literally everything that could go wrong did go wrong in the first half.  They came out in the second half and cut it to a one score game.  Never gave up, never quit, and fought really hard.  

 

- I think Wentz played a hell of a second half.  He basically had 300 yards, 3 TDs in the second half.  And it wasn't in garbage time.  Everything but the last drive was all part of the competitive part of the game.  

 

- I think the trio of McLaurin, Samuel and Dotson is going to be KILLER for the next 2-3 years, assuming the keep them together.  

 

- Logan Thomas playing as well as he is after the ACL and coming back in 9 months, damn impressive.  Has a ways to go, but to be out there and effective, man, good story.

 

- The defense actually came up with a 4th down goal-line stop.  They started the game ok.  Gave up a couple big plays but tightened in the redzone, and did get the turnover on downs.  (They did almost nothing right in the second half.  But at the beginning of the game, they made a few plays.)

 

EDITED because I can't get the right goddamn Logan when I talk about the TEs.  

 

43 minutes ago, Ball Security said:

At the beginning of the game, Detroit was attacking with LBers. Wentz had several step drops and the line couldn’t hold up.  Toss in more screens and let those guys beat them one on one.

We run screens SO badly, though.  I think Turner completely blew the game-plan.  They wanted to run the ball and then take deep shots.  (I like Turner.  Every coach has these games where they just go (fart sound) on the game plan, or the defense just wins.)

 

One thing I love about Turner is he really tries to take advantage of what the defense doesn't do well.  Which is great.

 

However, this year, we have a hammer.  We can ALSO dictate to the defense.  We should NEVER have a game plan which isn't focused around getting the ball out to the WRs and TEs (and RBs as receivers.)  That's the magic sauce.  If the game plan involves trying to run the ball to set up the pass, it's wrong.  Pass to set up the pass.  And run from time to time because you pay the RBs and probably need to.

 

The minute we start trying to run the ball, everything falls apart.  Go quick-game instead, where the passes are an extension of the run game, but outside the tackle box where our guys have the advantage.  

Edited September 19, 2022 by Voice_of_Reason

[Ball Security]

8 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I'll add another couple of positives:
 

- Literally everything that could go wrong did go wrong in the first half.  They came out in the second half and cut it to a one score game.  Never gave up, never quit, and fought really hard.  

 

- I think Wentz played a hell of a second half.  He basically had 300 yards, 3 TDs in the second half.  And it wasn't in garbage time.  Everything but the last drive was all part of the competitive part of the game.  

 

- I think the trio of McLaurin, Samuel and Dotson is going to be KILLER for the next 2-3 years, assuming the keep them together.  

 

- Logan Paulsen playing as well as he is after the ACL and coming back in 9 months, damn impressive.  Has a ways to go, but to be out there and effective, man, good story.

 

- The defense actually came up with a 4th down goal-line stop.  They started the game ok.  Gave up a couple big plays but tightened in the redzone, and did get the turnover on downs.  (They did almost nothing right in the second half.  But at the beginning of the game, they made a few plays.)

 

 

 

We run screens SO badly, though.  I think Turner completely blew the game-plan.  They wanted to run the ball and then take deep shots.  (I like Turner.  Every coach has these games where they just go (fart sound) on the game plan, or the defense just wins.)

 

One thing I love about Turner is he really tries to take advantage of what the defense doesn't do well.  Which is great.

 

However, this year, we have a hammer.  We can ALSO dictate to the defense.  We should NEVER have a game plan which isn't focused around getting the ball out to the WRs and TEs (and RBs as receivers.)  That's the magic sauce.  If the game plan involves trying to run the ball to set up the pass, it's wrong.  Pass to set up the pass.  And run from time to time because you pay the RBs and probably need to.

 

The minute we start trying to run the ball, everything falls apart.  Go quick-game instead, where the passes are an extension of the run game, but outside the tackle box where our guys have the advantage.  

Once they pair Logan Paulsen with Logan Thomas, watch out NFL. 🙃

[drewski]

I actually drove with my son to the game in Detroit ( we live in Canada). It was such a game of contrast. Literally the worst half of football I think I have seen played in a looooong time, but the 3rd quarter gave us a bit of optimism. The best part of the game came just before we entered Ford Field when my son spotted his favourite ever Redskin walking by. It was London Fletcher! My son called him by name and he stopped walked over and was extremely friendly. That sort of made up for what we were about to experience. He was a real gentleman.

[No Nonsense]

47 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

5. This was a bad game for Ron.  I like Ron, I believe in Ron, and I think he's absolutely the best we can get right now, if we lose him, we're not getting one of the top candidates to come in here, either for a FO position or a HC position.  This doesn't mean he is perfect.  I think he probably should have just kicked the EP when he had the chance, though I'm not sure it would have mattered, since the defense just couldn't get a stop.

People need to get off of the “we’re not getting one of the top candidates” routine. Are you telling me that we couldn’t have gotten Dabo if we offered him a contract? What we need to stop doing is going after name brand retreads and go after young, innovative OC’s with clean slates. 

[Voice_of_Reason]

2 minutes ago, No Nonsense said:

People need to get off of the “we’re not getting one of the top candidates” routine. Are you telling me that we couldn’t have gotten Dabo if we offered him a contract? What we need to stop doing is going after name brand retreads and go after young, innovative OC’s with clean slates. 

I'd like to remind you Jay Gruden was a young, innovative OC with a clean slate.  

 

We've done both: Gone veteran coach and gone young coordinator.  Neither has worked.  

 

Dan does tend to flip-flop them, though.  So, Veteran followed by a coordinator.  

 

I still like Ron.  I was a Ron fan while he was at Carolina.  Always thought his teams fought hard and to the end, and generally improved.  

21 minutes ago, Ball Security said:

Once they pair Logan Paulsen with Logan Thomas, watch out NFL. 🙃

Oh for ****'s sake.  That's like the 90'th time I've done that.  

 

Logan Thomas needs to change his goddamn first name.  

[Ball Security]

12 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I'd like to remind you Jay Gruden was a young, innovative OC with a clean slate.  

 

We've done both: Gone veteran coach and gone young coordinator.  Neither has worked.  

 

Dan does tend to flip-flop them, though.  So, Veteran followed by a coordinator.  

 

I still like Ron.  I was a Ron fan while he was at Carolina.  Always thought his teams fought hard and to the end, and generally improved.  

Oh for ****'s sake.  That's like the 90'th time I've done that.  

 

Logan Thomas needs to change his goddamn first name.  

I personally like the hire a position coach to coordinator first, then select the head coach, then react to the criticism and cancel the hiring and promote the coordinator to HC routine.  

[No Nonsense]

18 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I'd like to remind you Jay Gruden was a young, innovative OC with a clean slate.  

 

We've done both: Gone veteran coach and gone young coordinator.  Neither has worked.  

Jay was hired because he couldn’t get the better Gruden. Lol Guys like Sean McDermott are out there. Washington need to do their research and stop being lazy. 

[Thinking Skins]

34 minutes ago, Ball Security said:

I personally like the hire a position coach to coordinator first, then select the head coach, then react to the criticism and cancel the hiring and promote the coordinator to HC routine.  

How dare you?

 

We started 6-2 that year

[CTskin]

I’m not as down on the D as everyone else is… This game was lost in the first half because the offense was so poor.

 

D did a fine job of holding strong the first few drives but they couldn’t catch their breath before they had to get back out there. This would have been a much different game if the lions had a few less possessions especially when they had all the momentum.

 

The OL and turner were the problem. Maybe turner saw something on the eagles tape that he thought he could exploit, but sending AG up the gut brought back so many nauseating memories. The OL was average before injuries, now it’s a complete mess. This will likely haunt us all season.

 

The defense was not good, but there was one bright spot; jamin. I rewatched the jags game and saw how effective jamin was on the blitz and it at least seemed like de rio sent him quite a bit more. Jamin can be a poor man’s Micah and at this point I’ll take that. We need to take the thinking out of it for him; just send him hunting and use his god given abilities.

[srtman04]

15 minutes ago, CTskin said:

I’m not as down on the D as everyone else is… This game was lost in the first half because the offense was so poor.

 

D did a fine job of holding strong the first few drives but they couldn’t catch their breath before they had to get back out there. This would have been a much different game if the lions had a few less possessions especially when they had all the momentum.

 

The OL and turner were the problem. Maybe turner saw something on the eagles tape that he thought he could exploit, but sending AG up the gut brought back so many nauseating memories. The OL was average before injuries, now it’s a complete mess. This will likely haunt us all season.

 

The defense was not good, but there was one bright spot; jamin. I rewatched the jags game and saw how effective jamin was on the blitz and it at least seemed like de rio sent him quite a bit more. Jamin can be a poor man’s Micah and at this point I’ll take that. We need to take the thinking out of it for him; just send him hunting and use his god given abilities.

 

No I disagree, we would have won this game if we had somewhat of a competent defense.   The office did enough to try to the win the game at the end,   but the defense is so pathetic,  the Lions were able to exploit everything we were doing on that side of the ball literally on every snap.   They knew they had the game in hand the whole time after we had scored the last touchdown to come within 1 score with successful 2 point conversion (shouldn't need to do that but whatever, that's another discussion).   I'm pissed the offense still did well enough to win this one...despite how they began.....they adjusted, they started moving.   Defense never adjusted to anything and continued to be exploited.  

[CTskin]

1 minute ago, srtman04 said:

 

No I disagree, we would have won this game if we had somewhat of a competent defense.   The office did enough to try to the win the game at the end,   but the defense is so pathetic,  the Lions were able to exploit everything we were doing on that side of the ball literally on every snap.   They knew they had the game in hand the whole time after we had scored the last touchdown to come within 1 score with successful 2 point conversion (shouldn't need to do that but whatever, that's another discussion).   I'm pissed the offense still did well enough to win this one...despite how they began.....they adjusted, they started moving.   Defense never adjusted to anything and continued to be exploited.  

I’m sure the majority would agree with you that the defense is mostly to blame. 
 

I think the 0 spot on the board in the first half and about as little ToP as possible left our D out to dry. 

 

also, special teams should get an honorable mention for being absolutely terrible.

[KillBill26]

3 hours ago, Ball Security said:

I personally like the hire a position coach to coordinator first, then select the head coach, then react to the criticism and cancel the hiring and promote the coordinator to HC routine.  

Stay medium my friend.

[NoCalMike]

The problem with the defense right now is that there is no rhyme or reason to their performance.  They can pressure a QB, but can't stop the run to save their lives.  It makes no sense. The secondary pretty much doesn't cover anyone, either due to lack of ability or not understanding assignments or...........?   The defense makes some nice looking plays from time to time, but there is no way anyone can have watched the first two games and act like they trust this defense to make stops when abolsutely needed

 

The offense is easily the better of the two units, but they are still currently operating on "what they can be eventually" pace.  They can score quick, but they also go into a shell for too much of the game as well.  The O-line is now an even bigger question mark going forward and without pass blocking, you take away a lot of the big play potential.  

Special teams looks like it has returned to being mediocre. 

Edited September 20, 2022 by NoCalMike

[Voice_of_Reason]

3 hours ago, Ball Security said:

I personally like the hire a position coach to coordinator first, then select the head coach, then react to the criticism and cancel the hiring and promote the coordinator to HC routine.  

I have identified Ball Security:

 

[Warhead36]

1 hour ago, NoCalMike said:

The problem with the defense right now is that there is no rhyme or reason to their performance.  They can pressure a QB, but can't stop the run to save their lives.  It makes no sense. The secondary pretty much doesn't cover anyone, either due to lack of ability or not understanding assignments or...........?   The defense makes some nice looking plays from time to time, but there is no way anyone can have watched the first two games and act like they trust this defense to make stops when abolsutely needed

 

The offense is easily the better of the two units, but they are still currently operating on "what they can be eventually" pace.  They can score quick, but they also go into a shell for too much of the game as well.  The O-line is now an even bigger question mark going forward and without pass blocking, you take away a lot of the big play potential.  

Special teams looks like it has returned to being mediocre. 

Yep exactly. With the offense you can see them play well, and their issues are at least things you can address and work on.

 

With the defense its SO bad that, you can't even identify what the problem is. Is it players? Scheme? Do we really lack talent? Do we miss Young/Curl that badly? 

[Going Commando]

Turner is a mediocrity and just as big of a limiting factor as Del Rio.  He has his moments of creativity but the guy just has so little feel for situational playcalling and intuiting defensive gameplans/mismatches and making adjustments on the fly.  He has bad instincts, like almost everyone else in our organization. The offense got absolutely embarrassed in the first half and the situational play calling was atrocious during that span, to the point where the calls looked like a product of cowardice.  And it wasn't great at the end of the game either.  The offense's absolute lack of answers and adjustment and preparation is what put the game out of reach in the second quarter, the defense actually kept the flood gates from bursting until that embarrassing safety happened.

 

Ron needs a new staff, these coaches are not good enough.

[Voice_of_Reason]

11 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

Turner is a mediocrity and just as big of a limiting factor as Del Rio.  He has his moments of creativity but the guy just has so little feel for situational playcalling and intuiting defensive gameplans/mismatches and making adjustments on the fly.  He has bad instincts, like almost everyone else in our organization. The offense got absolutely embarrassed in the first half and the situational play calling was atrocious during that span, to the point where the calls looked like a product of cowardice.  And it wasn't great at the end of the game either.  The offense's absolute lack of answers and adjustment and preparation is what put the game out of reach in the second quarter, the defense actually kept the flood gates from bursting until that embarrassing safety happened.

 

Ron needs a new staff, these coaches are not good enough.

You realize the offense is around top 5 in points and top 7 in yards, and the QB has thrown 7 TDs, which is tied for the league lead, right?

 

I mean, complaining about an OC when the offense has played pretty damn well, and even rebounded to score 27 points in a half and pull within 1 score, that seems like you're barking up the wrong tree.

 

And if you watched carefully, Scott was trying a whole variety of different things to try and get the offense going in the first half.  He tried quick game, screens, runs, deep shots...  They tried a lot of different things.  They couldn't block anybody.  That was the problem.

 

Then they came out and scored 27 points in a half.  

 

They have 100 problems, Scott Turner is not one of them.  

[Voice_of_Reason]

55 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Yep exactly. With the offense you can see them play well, and their issues are at least things you can address and work on.

 

With the defense its SO bad that, you can't even identify what the problem is. Is it players? Scheme? Do we really lack talent? Do we miss Young/Curl that badly? 

I think they miss Curl that badly.  

 

They were counting on him to be the replacement LB in the Big Nickel.  Which would help against the run and pass.  They would use Forrest or Butler in the back with McCain, let Curl play near the LOS.  Which would probably help both Holcomb and Davis, honestly.  I think he's a HUGE loss, because he was not only a safety, but also a pseudo LB.  

 

The other guy they miss is Phil Mathis, who would have been the guy standing right in the middle of the Lion's OL and not being moved and could have REALLY helped against the run.  As good as Allen and Payne are, they aren't that guy.  We need that guy, we don't have that guy anymore.  

 

They miss Young, but I think that's secondary at the moment.  

 

I also think WJIII has completely regressed and is playing BAD football.  Why that is, I don't know.  Fuller knows what he's doing, apparently had a great camp, but isn't playing great.  Though again, that could be a function of some safety play.  

 

I think Curl is the glue to the entire defense.  You know when the defense got good last year?  When he started playing.  That wasn't a coincidence.  

 

The year the Colts won the SB, I think it was 2009, they had a MISSERABLE run defense for most of the yar. Their starting safety, a guy named Sanders, missed a lot of time.  

 

He came back for the playoffs.  

 

They were a freaking brick wall to run against the entire playoff run.

 

The difference?  Basically 1 dude in the right place at the right time.