Going into Training Camp what Unit.....

[JCB]

[Reddskins1]

That is very possible 

[Koolblue13]

Mine. I'm pretty excited about this upcoming season. 

[gbear]

I have little faith in the OL going into the season.  It seems like we are basing our expectations on how they were last year.  However, 3/5 of the starters are likely to be different or out at the beginning of the year.  Then I think about how much of the OL play relies on familiarity with what the person next to you is going to do in any given situation.  I just see the OL as real potential weak spot on this team at the beginning of the season.  This then tempers my expectations for any unit on O because they all require time and space created by the OL.

 

On D, I think our DL is probably our best bet, but even them I question.  Our two stud DE are coming back from season ending injuries.  Having had serious leg injuries, it seems optimistic to me to expect them to come back at an elite level.  It takes time before your body trusts the injured parts to perform as they should.  It's why a lot of knee injuries really show a jump in play from 1 year out to 2 years out.  The trust where one does rather than thinks then does jus takes time.  Sadly, that moments hesitation can also increase the risks of further injuries.  I am just in a "show me" position on our DE.  That puts more pressure on our back end of the D.  Sadly, I am not overly confident in any position on our D being a strength going into the season.

 

I guess by default that leaves me with special teams.  Our punter is good, and our kickers at the end of the season seemed capable.  I would hope we could have a reliable special teams unit.  It's just hard to get excited for them.

[Reddskins1]

4 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

Mine. I'm pretty excited about this upcoming season. 

You have every reason to be...I'm wit ya!!

[srtman04]

I am also worried about the O-line too.  This is not the same unit as last year....I hope I am proven wrong on this.   OL is the foundation of a good offense....let's hope this isn't an issue next season.  

[The Sisko]

20 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

I think our WR unit could end up being top 10, maybe top 5 in the league at season's end.

 

1 hour ago, gbear said:

I have little faith in the OL going into the season.  It seems like we are basing our expectations on how they were last year.  However, 3/5 of the starters are likely to be different or out at the beginning of the year.  Then I think about how much of the OL play relies on familiarity with what the person next to you is going to do in any given situation.  I just see the OL as real potential weak spot on this team at the beginning of the season.  This then tempers my expectations for any unit on O because they all require time and space created by the OL.

The former of these two things is obviously dependent on the latter. Wentz' strength is in deep passing and the team wants to do a lot more of it. However, if the OL doesn't hold up, we could be limited to the occasional deep shot or, if the OL really struggles, we could end up being forced to play Heineke ball due to a lack of time to throw. I'll put it at 60/40 that they're able to be at least competent. If that happens, we could have a decent season.

[skinsfan93]

2 hours ago, gbear said:

I have little faith in the OL going into the season.  It seems like we are basing our expectations on how they were last year.  However, 3/5 of the starters are likely to be different or out at the beginning of the year.  Then I think about how much of the OL play relies on familiarity with what the person next to you is going to do in any given situation.  I just see the OL as real potential weak spot on this team at the beginning of the season.  This then tempers my expectations for any unit on O because they all require time and space created by the OL.

I couldn’t disagree with you more. Yes familiarity is huge for an offensive line but we had a make shift line last year and did just fine. Turner and Norwell are better and usually are more reliable than Schreff and Flowers in my opinion. Schreff hasn’t played a full season since 2016. Roullier played half a season last year and we rolled out guys like Ismael to replace him. The key denominator is Matsko who seems to get the most out of everyone. 
 

Im not saying our line is gonna be a huge strength but certainly not a liability. Camp will be important to make sure we have the right kind of depth. 

[Voice_of_Reason]

I've been thinking more about this.  

 

I think I'm most confident in the WRs and interior of the DL. 

WR - There are if's but I'm drinking the Kool-Aid (btw, do they still sell Kool-Aid?) on Dotson, and I think Samuel is going to be healthy. I could be wrong on these, but for reasons I don't quite understand, I have a lot of confidence this is going to be an outstanding group.

 

Interior DL - I think the three guys they have this year might be better than the 3 guys they had last year.  And I don't care that much about the 4th guy.  

 

I think I'm "average" confident (like, I think the units are going to be "fine") in:

QB - I think Wentz is going to be "fine."  

OL - Lots of changes, but I trust Masko.  I debated going between "fine" and "a little concerned" on this one, but in the end, I went with "fine" because of Masko.

TE - I think Bates, Turner and Thomas will be just fine, when Thomas comes back from injury.  Until then, I think Bates and Turner are fine. 

Secondary - Everybody is back in their spots from last year, and they played better at the end of the year. 

 

 

I'm worried about:

Edge Rushers (both Young's health and also both he and Sweat had a miserable season last year.)

LBs - more so for depth than anything else. I get they aren't going to use LBs a lot.  But it's concerning to me

RB - After I listed all the issues with the RBs out earlier, I think I talked myself into being a little concerned. Gibson is constantly hurt, had a fumbling problem and lacks vision.  McKissic was hurt last year with a neck injury.  Robinson is a rookie. The key is health and specifically McKissic.  If he's healthy and stays that way, he's huge for the offense as both a pass protector and receiving threat out of the backfield, as well as a runner.  If he's not, Gibson did not prove to be as good at pass protection, and we don't know about the rookie.  I'm not as much of a fan of Gibson as a runner as I am of Gibson as a weapon. If they limit his touches and move him around, I think he will be fine. I don't think this group will stink, but I think they are more questions than some people want to acknowledge.  Which is why they spent a 3rd round pick on a RB to begin with....

[Riggo-toni]

I can't say there's any group in which I have confidence. Maybe the RBs.

[FootballZombie]

Another thing to keep in mind is positional cross reliance for success.

 

As long as the Oline handles its own business and is good, it does not need a lot of support from other position groups.

RBs only really need support from their Oline

 

Beyond those two groups, there is a much greater reliance on multiple layers

Pass catchers are gonna need their QB, who in turn greatly needs the Oline, so even if you are confident in the receiving core, you'll need multiple position groups to at least pan out for them to be effective.

The same can be said with QB. If the Oline and catchers are not pulling their weight as a group, then I don't care how much confidence you have in the position, your likely in for a slog.

 

Oline has the easiest pathway and in a lot of ways controls its own destiny for the most part.

RBs are at least one level heavy dependent

Everyone else on O is multi-level heavy dependent.

[Reddskins1]

1 hour ago, Riggo-toni said:

I can't say there's any group in which I have confidence. Maybe the RBs.

That's understandable hopefully by mid season you will have confidence in multiple units...

[Voice_of_Reason]

8 hours ago, FootballZombie said:

Oline has the easiest pathway and in a lot of ways controls its own destiny for the most part.

Eh....  A bad QB can make the OL look B-A-D. Look what 2013/2014 Griffin did to the OL, which magically fixed itself to a great degree in 2015 with Kirk?  

 

I get what you're saying, and I don't entirely disagree.  There isn't anything preventing the OL from doing their jobs.  So, from that perspective, yeah, they control their own destiny to an extent.

 

However, if the QB isn't good, holds the ball, rolls the wrong way, it can make the OL look very bad.  Maybe they aren't bad, but it's sometimes tough to tell.  

 

8 hours ago, FootballZombie said:

RBs are at least one level heavy dependent

They are pretty dependent on blocking.  OL/TE for the most part, but also WR.  If there is no hole, they aint going anywhere.  Unless it's Barry Sanders who could just run around until a hole developed.  

 

8 hours ago, FootballZombie said:

Everyone else on O is multi-level heavy dependent.

I think everything is dependent on everything else, that's why it's called "the ultimate team game."  If any one piece is out of sync, the whole operation can blow up.  Your RB blows a blitz pickup, and the perfectly run route doesn't matter.  The QB misses a throw, the RG gets beat, any one thing on any one play can blow it up.

 

I would actually argue the position that controls it's own destiny more than any other is the QB.  They have their ball in their hands, have the ability to evade pressure, can run or pass.  Obviously they can't catch the pass they throw, but they can control their accuracy, and if you put the ball on a guy, in the NFL, drops are rare.  

9 hours ago, Riggo-toni said:

I can't say there's any group in which I have confidence. Maybe the RBs.

Gibson fumbles, is always dealing with something, and lacks vision.

McKissic missed the last quarter+ of the season with an neck injury.

And the other guy's a rookie.

 

What makes you confident about this group?  Serious question.  I think it's sortof the "company line" at this point because they drafted a guy who should be a good fit.

 

But I think there are questions here, which is WHY they drafted a guy in the 3rd round.  

 

It COULD all come together, and maybe it will.  But I think there are questions...

 

(I don't hate Gibson, I actually like him as a player, but I think he's much better suited to a much smaller role, and a role more similar to McKissic.  But he's not as good a pass-protector.  He should be a weapon, both as a runner and a receiver.  As a pure runner, he's tough, but he leaves a lot on the field.  And with his speed, he should be able to break more big runs.)

[Riggo-toni]

I said Maybe...

[mistertim]

19 hours ago, skinsfan93 said:

I couldn’t disagree with you more. Yes familiarity is huge for an offensive line but we had a make shift line last year and did just fine. Turner and Norwell are better and usually are more reliable than Schreff and Flowers in my opinion. Schreff hasn’t played a full season since 2016. Roullier played half a season last year and we rolled out guys like Ismael to replace him. The key denominator is Matsko who seems to get the most out of everyone. 
 

Im not saying our line is gonna be a huge strength but certainly not a liability. Camp will be important to make sure we have the right kind of depth. 

 

I think Turner and Norwell being better than Scherff is a big stretch. Scherff wasn't among the truly elite IMO, but he was very good. That being said you're definitely right about the injuries. What's the point of having a top notch Guard if he's constantly out? I'll take a good player who's always on the field over a very good player who's consistently dealing with injuries.

[illone]

I kinda think QB is what Im most confident in at this point. 
 

It’s a pretty substantial upgrade for this team. 
 

Im sure other “units” may appear dominant because of this upgrade, but at the end…

 

its QB. 

[Voice_of_Reason]

13 hours ago, Riggo-toni said:

I said Maybe...

Maybe not?

[Warhead36]

I could see the OL struggling early since we play some strong fronts the first few weeks, but they'll gel as the season goes along and eventually be a rock solid unit.

[Est.1974]

2 hours ago, illone said:

I kinda think QB is what Im most confident in at this point. 
 

It’s a pretty substantial upgrade for this team. 
 

Im sure other “units” may appear dominant because of this upgrade, but at the end…

 

its QB. 

Good call. I’d agree with that.

[Voice_of_Reason]

3 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

I could see the OL struggling early since we play some strong fronts the first few weeks, but they'll gel as the season goes along and eventually be a rock solid unit.

Scott Turner and Wentz can help them out.  Move the pocket, play action and quick throws will help the OL early.

 

 

[TheShredder]

4 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Scott Turner and Wentz can help them out.  Move the pocket, play action and quick throws will help the OL early.

 

 

With Wentz working diligently on his weaknesses and Turner coaching his scheme, Wentz should improve on where the correct read is. They'll identify the keys in training camp, then drill after drill leading to Week 1. The receivers will be good and be open or not fast. I'm pretty sure the offense is the stronger unit in 2022.

+ Wentz shows less hesitation with one on one coverage.

+ Wentz gets the ball out faster.

? Will Wentz learn to check it down or throw it away vs playing hero ball?

I think there's situations where extending the play has it's merit, so he has to play better situational football.

[Voice_of_Reason]

44 minutes ago, TheShredder said:

With Wentz working diligently on his weaknesses and Turner coaching his scheme, Wentz should improve on where the correct read is. They'll identify the keys in training camp, then drill after drill leading to Week 1. The receivers will be good and be open or not fast. I'm pretty sure the offense is the stronger unit in 2022.

+ Wentz shows less hesitation with one on one coverage.

+ Wentz gets the ball out faster.

? Will Wentz learn to check it down or throw it away vs playing hero ball?

I think there's situations where extending the play has it's merit, so he has to play better situational football.

In some ways, the Coryell offense that Turner runs is just so different than the WCO offense Wentz has been playing in, because it really works hard to get the primary guy open and make the read easier for the QB.  Aikman, who played in the Norv version of this system, said it was complicated, but when you got the hang of it, it was extremely QB friendly.  

 

I just have this sneaky suspicion the hero ball thing won't be an issue.  I am 100% positive at times he's going to pass up a short pass for a deeper pass, but every good QB does that from time to time.  

 

I personally do not want him to to go TOO far in the opposite direction, where he feels like he needs to check it down at the first sign of trouble, where he becomes another Alex Smith type QB.  He's got the arm, he likes to go deep, let him.  Not on every play, but I wouldn't constrain him too much either.  

[TheShredder]

17 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I just have this sneaky suspicion the hero ball thing won't be an issue.  I am 100% positive at times he's going to pass up a short pass for a deeper pass, but every good QB does that from time to time.  

 

I personally do not want him to to go TOO far in the opposite direction, where he feels like he needs to check it down at the first sign of trouble, where he becomes another Alex Smith type QB.  He's got the arm, he likes to go deep, let him.  Not on every play, but I wouldn't constrain him too much either.  

Obvious concerns should be the issues that 1- Cause the most negative outcome and 2- Most frequent. Both of these come from hero ball.

I don't have any issue with +20 yd attempts if they're producing results. Need to be +50% to have an impact, so pulling the trigger just to play with the gun doesn't make much sense.

Still, his issues have been reading the defense, choosing the correct side of the field for targets, then reading the route response of the key defender. A lot of this is solved in the QB room (like +50%). Wentz having a good number of talented receives is going to help a lot. They will win routes or not faster. He'll have a highly dependable #1 WR who won't allow an INT in a 50/50 battle and will win most of them. When all else fails he can toss it up to #17. Check down are built into plays to gain yards, move chains, and sustain drives. Always check it down to an open receiver vs throwing to one that is not, or throw it away. Good QBs are good because they find the open receivers, throw them open, or throw it out of bounds.

[ultravin]

i hope we can sign flowers back in the oline for cheap after the 2nd game of preseason.  

 

[bowhunter]

10 hours ago, ultravin said:

i hope we can sign flowers back in the oline for cheap after the 2nd game of preseason.  

 

That would be amazing, especially if he would now take a more team friendly salary. Flowers has played well here. Although I'm sure he would want to be move right in to start on someones roster whereas here he might be quality depth if the new guys are playing well.