The All Things 2022 OTAs/Training Camp Thread

[bowhunter]

31 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

.  I'd say Robinson is the most frowned upon pick.  I personally don't get that.  Robinson to my eyes is a thumper with more wheels than some of the draftniks realize IMO.  A pass weapon, too.  In the third round he was one of the three players I clamored for before the pick came in.

I agree SIP, There are situations where you need to light up the air and times to wear down a D with a reliable back. This offseason we enhanced both options and for the first time in a long time, I'm more excited about our O than our D

[KDawg]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

I agree with you that this draft could end up being really good.  I am surprised that so many driftniks think "meh".  Diving deeper into why, they seem to think Jahan was overdrafted and Mathis and Robinson were taken too high.  IMO they are wrong but will see.  I'd say Robinson is the most frowned upon pick. 

 

What's funny is all of the guys you just named I was fairly high on. Robinson was RB3 for me and I thought Walker and Hall were extremely high end backs. Jahan was WR4, but the only guy I didn't think there was an argument where Jahan could be seen as better as a prospect was Drake London. Mathis is a nose type, doesn't wow you by any means, but an excellent player. He was my 1T #2, but he can play some 3T as well. 

 

I still find it kind of funny that people were higher on Percy Butler than they were on Jahan, BRob and Mathis :shrug:

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

It can be difficult to tell how some RB's translate to the Pro's, but Robinson's game looks so good. I also do not think Alabama's o-line was quite as good as it normally is. Still a good o-line most of the time, but some opponents clearly had the upper hand on that o-line all game long.

[Chris 44]

1 hour ago, Koolblue13 said:

Yeah, I'm not super high on Thomas. He has a great year, but his age and injury might negate all of that and I'm just tired of seeing pass catching TEs who don't play. It's been our MO for too long.

 

Im one of the ones who really likes Thomas and think we were lucky to have got him when we did. Unfortunately I don't see him as the future due to, as you mentioned, the injuries/durability. Wish that wasn't the case because he could be pretty special. Having said that I am very intrigued with Bates and Cole, Bates was a pleasant surprise last year (I remember you touting his talents early on), at the very least appears to be a solid blocker and has very good hands. Cole being the more athletic TE, appears to have fantastic hands and should give the additional option of stretching the field (based of course on the limited sample size of OTA'S). Im very excited to watch both, again, unfortunately I think Thomas's days may be numbered. 

[Voice_of_Reason]

On 6/27/2022 at 10:14 AM, Koolblue13 said:

I think it will be a huge benefit to him in the long run. I don't think that was the coaches plan, but I do see it as a positive. It's an interesting way to handle a highly drafted rookie.

 

I think we can all agree that he shouldn't have been a first round pick, so that is where the main mistake happened, but if he was a second rounder like he should have been, I don't think playing him out of position gets criticized as much.

It was a blown evaluation.  They thought he could mature into a MLB quickly, and that's why they picked him where they did.  This was a mistake. 

 

Should he have been a first or second round pick, eh, that's debatable. For all we know, another team would have picked him 3 spots later.  We have no idea.  You pick the guy who's highest on your board when you have the chance, and they did, and they picked him.

 

The issue is for what they wanted him to do, he probably shouldn't have been rated as highly, which means they might have picked somebody else.

It's probably potato or. potato (that idiom doesn't really work written out, does it?) we're saying kindof the same thing.  But I view it as a blown evaluation and grade.  

[Voice_of_Reason]

4 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I agree with you that this draft could end up being really good.  I am surprised that so many driftniks think "meh". 

It's because Thor Nystrom things we reached for every draft pick, since it didn't line up to his golden, absolutely correct, never can be wrong big board.

 

Oh, and same from all of the other fools.  Thor is just the most obnoxious of the bunch..

 

Btw, I do have a new target of a media guest personality who knows nothing and goes on multiple shows, but it's for the congressional stuff.  Stephanie Wein-something-or-other.  Complete fool. I will be roasting her mercilessly in other threads.  Just like the Great Fool Thor.  

[Califan007 The Constipated]

 

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

On 6/16/2022 at 9:27 PM, KDawg said:

You’ll have to forgive me if I don’t take your word for it. I mean, there’s no way you can possibly KNOW McLaurin would be signed by July 4th. 
 

 

On 6/16/2022 at 9:32 PM, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

[KDawg]

6 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

 

A broken clock is correct twice a day

[wit33]

31 minutes ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

 

 

Resign the dude.
 

Keep known young/productive talent and adjust as you go.
 

The ability to move guys through trades has increased a great amount, it’s not like you can’t move a DL piece if needed down the road. 
 

Resign them all if they prove worth it. Pinch pennies elsewhere/move money around. 

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 minute ago, KDawg said:

A broken clock is correct twice a day

If I'm right twice a day that would up my daily average, so I'll take it!!!!

[Voice_of_Reason]

13 minutes ago, wit33 said:

Resign them all if they prove worth it. Pinch pennies elsewhere/move money around. 

They don’t have to pinch Pennies.  They have plenty of cal room to do whatever they want to. 

[wit33]

Just now, Voice_of_Reason said:

They don’t have to pinch Pennies.  They have plenty of cal room to do whatever they want to. 

For sure, just saying down the road if they decide to extend Sweat and Young.  I don’t subscribe to idea it’s a bad investment to devote that much cap to the Dline—it’s always situational. 

 

I speculate they value Payne more than Sweat and Young as we stand today. 

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 minute ago, wit33 said:

For sure, just saying down the road if they decide to extend Sweat and Young.  I don’t subscribe to idea it’s a bad investment to devote that much cap to the Dline—it’s always situational. 

 

I speculate they value Payne more than Sweat and Young as we stand today. 

 

I actually don’t think they want to extend him now because they want to see all the pieces on the DL work together they way they should.  Because if they don’t, they need to call a spade a spade and let guys go, trade guys and change things up.  
 

I would not be shocked if only You g and Allen remain from the original group in 2 years.  Not because of cap issues just because if the DL underperforms then they will make changes.  
 

I wouldn’t have a problem if they extended Payne, but I wouldn’t have an issue if they didn’t and then franchised him either.)

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

Depending on the cap hits, and what happens with the offense this upcoming season, there's a chance our cap situation becomes too tight to re-sign everyone we want. We have 17 million in space right now, and 11 million next season.  So that's 28 million in roll over (if I'm reading it right).  McLaurin+2023 rookies could take up most of that. If we make the playoffs, the rookies won't cost as much, and we have an extra 3rd instead of a 2nd which also reduces the cost a little.

 

In order to sign young guys long term that we want, there's a chance we'd have to cut one of Logan Thomas, Curtis Samuel, Kendall Fuller, William Jackson, Chase Roullier and/or Charles Leno. It's too early to say, as there are a sizeable amount of moving pieces and schematic shifts that have and likely will change as the season is underway. How important is Payne in this new higher usage Buffalo Nickel D? If Ben St. Juste takes one of the starting spots, then cutting a corner is common sense. But if he doesn't?

 

I don't think it makes sense to extend Payne right now unless we can get him at a team friendly deal (but he and his agent would not do that). I also imagine that Payne's value in a trade will only increase as training camp/preseason goes underway and other teams start fully realizing weaknesses in their D-Line. I would not trade him right now either as it makes sense to wait.

[Mrshadow008]

2 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I actually don’t think they want to extend him now because they want to see all the pieces on the DL work together they way they should.  Because if they don’t, they need to call a spade a spade and let guys go, trade guys and change things up.  
 

I would not be shocked if only You g and Allen remain from the original group in 2 years.  Not because of cap issues just because if the DL underperforms then they will make changes.  
 

I wouldn’t have a problem if they extended Payne, but I wouldn’t have an issue if they didn’t and then franchised him either.)

It does make wonder too what Paynes camp is asking for. Early reports were we wanted to resign him. Then there were reports Payne was gonna want in ballpark of JA. Then reports came out we weren’t going to resign him at the present time but might let him test the market next year but could still resign him. Every big contract they’ve wanted done since Ron got here they’ve tried to get done before they hit the market. Scherff I don’t count because that wasn’t necessarily their blunder. So it does make me wonder if the reports of them looking for JA are accurate and they don’t value him anywhere close to that price point. Obviously that’s speculation on my part but it kinda makes sense based on how the reporting has gone 

[Koolblue13]

I wanna see the Bama 3 play their entire careers together and become a league wide legacy. That's some great news.

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

8 hours ago, Mrshadow008 said:

It does make wonder too what Paynes camp is asking for. Early reports were we wanted to resign him. Then there were reports Payne was gonna want in ballpark of JA. Then reports came out we weren’t going to resign him at the present time but might let him test the market next year but could still resign him. Every big contract they’ve wanted done since Ron got here they’ve tried to get done before they hit the market. Scherff I don’t count because that wasn’t necessarily their blunder. So it does make me wonder if the reports of them looking for JA are accurate and they don’t value him anywhere close to that price point. Obviously that’s speculation on my part but it kinda makes sense based on how the reporting has gone 

 

Standig and Sheehan talked about this recently.  

 

Sheehan was once in the camp that Payne > Allen.  But no more.  Sheehan said (couldn't tell if that was his opinion or what he heard) that his feeling is Payne has played enough where the verdict seems to be in that he's more about potential than production.  In other words, greatness will elude Payne, they've seen enough to know that now.  Whereas Jonathan Allen will get every ounce out of his talent and implied he is a peg better.  So his point was he doesn't think they are willing to pay great money for a player who is good but not great.

 

Standig somewhat vacillated on the point but his thought was cap people have told him its poor cap management to pay 4 D lineman big money and teams don't and this team shouldn't.  In most segments, Standig has said he doesn't think the team offers Payne a long term contract and in some segments he vacillates on that.  So i don't know. 

[Mrshadow008]

1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Standig and Sheehan talked about this recently.  

 

Sheehan was once in the camp that Payne > Allen.  But no more.  Sheehan said (couldn't tell if that was his opinion or what he heard) that his feeling is Payne has played enough where the verdict seems to be in that he's more about potential than production.  In other words, greatness will elude Payne, they've seen enough to know that now.  Whereas Jonathan Allen will get every ounce out of his talent and implied he is a peg better.  So his point was he doesn't think they are willing to pay great money for a player who is good but not great.

 

Standig somewhat vacillated on the point but his thought was cap people have told him its poor cap management to pay 4 D lineman big money and teams don't and this team shouldn't.  In most segments, Standig has said he doesn't think the team offers Payne a long term contract and in some segments he vacillates on that.  So i don't know. 

I mean I get it. I feel like Sweat is more important next offseason. At some point your are probably going to have to pay Chase as well. You can likely get Paynes production from say 2 rotational Dts for less money than what Payne would cost. That does even take into consideration that if Wentz plays well youre going to have to pay him as well. But I still wonder if his camp is asking for something much larger than what their actual market value is 

[Koolblue13]

7 minutes ago, Mrshadow008 said:

I mean I get it. I feel like Sweat is more important next offseason. At some point your are probably going to have to pay Chase as well. You can likely get Paynes production from say 2 rotational Dts for less money than what Payne would cost. That does even take into consideration that if Wentz plays well youre going to have to pay him as well. But I still wonder if his camp is asking for something much larger than what their actual market value is 

But its definitely better to have one talented guy, than two role players on a tight roster.

 

No idea what Payne is looking for and I doubt its Allen money, but allen doesn't get the production without Payne. And Payne is still extremely young.

 

Sweat is under contract for 2 more years, so if we square away Payne this year, the only big contract we'll have to address next season is Wentz if he balls out. Otherwise its nobody. That's great cap work for us.

 

Resign Payne, go get Collins back and this team is looking pretty damn good for a while.

[Skinsinparadise]

20 minutes ago, Mrshadow008 said:

I mean I get it. I feel like Sweat is more important next offseason. At some point your are probably going to have to pay Chase as well. You can likely get Paynes production from say 2 rotational Dts for less money than what Payne would cost. That does even take into consideration that if Wentz plays well youre going to have to pay him as well. But I still wonder if his camp is asking for something much larger than what their actual market value is 

 

No idea.  There was some speculation (not sure if it was based on something they heard or they were just guessing) that he wanted Jonathan Allen type money.  I also heard multiple times including recently that they did float him as trade bait in the off season and the impression I get is they didn't get any interesting offer. 

 

I know some blame that on Rivera as if another GM would get a better offer but to me that's silly.  DT's without much sack production who are no longer cheap aren't the types to bring back big trade hauls.   If Payne was in his 2nd or even 3rd year, he'd get a better haul.  Some ignore the money aspect of trades as if its meaningless.  But listening to agents among other things, you find that its very meaningful. 

 

I've said before I think Dalvin Tomlinson is a good comp to Payne not Allen.  For Payne to get Allen money he's going to need to have that big breakthrough season that has escaped him so far.  Don't get me wrong, Payne has been good.  And he has great moments but he's not IMO a consistent player.  Consistency is the hallmark of great players.   Some say that's because Payne is always playing nose and 2 gapping. 

 

But I've spent a lot of time rewatching the D line and I posted a lot of clips on various thread -- Payne 1 gaps plenty.  He plays plenty of 3 technique and goes after the passer.  Some like to say imagine if he did 1 gap, he'd have a ton of sacks.  From my observation that's not true.  But I do think he's a good pass rusher.  He has moments.  A bunch of pressures last year.  But the dude isn't a dominant pass rusher by a long shot.  When he bull dozes the O lineman via a bull rush its fun to watch but he's also contained plenty. 

 

Allen IMO is the better player.  And Allen actually plays nose some too and can also stop the run.  IMO its been the chic position on the board for years that Payne is the underrated player on the board.  I get it because physically he's a monster.   I recall a bunch of people for years here have said Payne > Allen.  Some in the local media would say the same but I noticed most now have backed off of that.  IMO if any D lineman is underrated its Allen but granted that's changing. 

Edited June 29, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Mrshadow008]

1 minute ago, Koolblue13 said:

But its definitely better to have one talented guy, than two role players on a tight roster.

 

No idea what Payne is looking for and I doubt its Allen money, but allen doesn't get the production without Payne. And Payne is still extremely young.

 

Sweat is under contract for 2 more years, so if we square away Payne this year, the only big contract we'll have to address next season is Wentz if he balls out. Otherwise its nobody. That's great cap work for us.

 

Resign Payne, go get Collins back and this team is looking pretty damn good for a while.

We can argue the team waits to long into offseason to get deals done BUT with the big contracts they seem to like to try and get them done the offseason before they hit the market JA, Thomas, Terry. Meaning they are likely going to try and extend Sweat next off-season not the season after. I wouldnt be surprised to see them rework wentz deal next offseason w an extension to lower his cap hit for next season especially considering cap is projected to jump to 230 next season and 250 the season after that. So thats another thing to factor here is team could be waiting for the cap jump as well 

[Koolblue13]

3 minutes ago, Mrshadow008 said:

We can argue the team waits to long into offseason to get deals done BUT with the big contracts they seem to like to try and get them done the offseason before they hit the market JA, Thomas, Terry. Meaning they are likely going to try and extend Sweat next off-season not the season after. I wouldnt be surprised to see them rework wentz deal next offseason w an extension to lower his cap hit for next season especially considering cap is projected to jump to 230 next season and 250 the season after that. So thats another thing to factor here is team could be waiting for the cap jump as well 

Definitely, I just think the "4 Dlinemen is bad cap" narrative is flawed. Were poised to be able to keep them all together. 

 

This season, if they dominate like they should, I think they stay together. 

 

You're also right, that this is essentially a contract year for Sweat and we're in position to pay him in a way that keeps it open to resign Chase when needed, so it's not a stretch at all.

[Skinsinparadise]

Standig and Sheehan just talked about this again. 

 

Standig thinks Payne will be the odd man out, doesn't think its smart from what he heard to pay 4 D lineman but he doesn't rule it out.

 

He doubled down that they put out feelers in the off season to trade Payne

 

He said you can pick up cues from Rivera's own rhetoric where he will say he doesn't want to let players go and when cued up about Payne, Rivera doesn't say that about Payne.