The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randal 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariota and Fromm battle for QB2 and so begins the Handsome Harem for Hartman

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

1 hour ago, Koolblue13 said:

 

Hard to blame Scott. He's putting together some really nice plays out there. This second play should have been thrown a second or two sooner, but nicely done.

I’ve made mention of this often as well.

 

Scott is getting the first read wide open with regularity, making it even easier for Heinicke.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

 

[Califan007 The Constipated]

9 hours ago, 757SeanTaylor21 said:

We still got Scott turner as oc so I doubt that we would be winning by that much

Yeah, it’s Scott Turner who’s holding back Heinicke lol…

[CommanderCarson]

Haha Keim saying that is hilarious. 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

18 minutes ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

Yeah, it’s Scott Turner who’s holding back Heinicke lol…

Aside from the “the guys play for Taylor” magic takes, this one is next up for worst take.

 

I’m not sure how Turners system translates to outsiders, as none of them have looked any good in it, in limited action.

 

But he’s magical with Heinicke, and this run heavy approach that often leads to bunny throws to wide open dudes.  At times, Taylor makes the bunnies look difficult with his accuracy.  

I know this take also ‘offends’ some folks. 😭

[757SeanTaylor21]

28 minutes ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

Yeah, it’s Scott Turner who’s holding back Heinicke lol…

No you're right. It's not like Scott turners offense doesn't call for 7 step drops from the shotgun for slants and hitches. Totally elite.

Changing an offensive approach to do only what heinicke can do doesn't make Scott turner any better than what he actually is and done. Thats what he should be able to do at the BARE MINIMUM

His offense still runs multiple people in the same area. Goes 5 wide and its a screen 90% of the time. 7 step drops from shotgun for quick passes is absolutely asinine and yet were winning because we run the ball 85% of the time. Did yall forget what that offense looked like AFTER JAX? I will say with all the misdirection and motion that it is a good offense and wish he kept doing that the entire year but we know he didn't do that. We all were asking where was the Samuel sweeps and quick screens or hand offs and motions etc etc. I will say though him going back up into the booth things have looked tremendously better. And yes I'd like a better qb but I am concerned that with a better qb the offense doesn't look the same and turner goes back to doing turner things

Edited December 3, 2022 by 757SeanTaylor21

[Califan007 The Constipated]

11 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Aside from the “the guys play for Taylor” magic takes, this one is next up for worst take.

 

I’m not sure how Turners system translates to outsiders, as none of them have looked any good in it, in limited action.

 

But he’s magical with Heinicke, and this run heavy approach that often leads to bunny throws to wide open dudes.  At times, Taylor makes the bunnies look difficult with his accuracy.  

I know this take also ‘offends’ some folks. 😭

No idea whose take you’re referring to here..,

[Simmsy]

15 hours ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

 If the Commanders' QBs had twin sisters lol:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Change of pace from the "arm strength and INTs" debates 👍

 

Mmm, looks like I'm back on the Heini train...I'll be in the caboose. Gonna turn this steam engine into a cream engine. 😉

[Califan007 The Constipated]

2 minutes ago, Simmsy said:

 

Mmm, looks like I'm back on the Heini train...I'll be in the caboose. Gonna turn this steam engine into a cream engine. 😉

Now THIS is oddly disturbing lol…

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

27 minutes ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

No idea whose take you’re referring to here..,

Basically anyone that argues Heinicke is much more than along for the ride, those who argue Turner is a problem, etc. 

[Califan007 The Constipated]

3 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Basically anyone that argues Heinicke is much more than along for the ride, those who argue Turner is a problem, etc. 

 

Those are two different takes lol…but that being said, I’m not sure why you responded to my post? Just a jumping off point?

[skinny21]

@goskins10I might have my math wrong, but I think the offense is averaging a little over 2 more points per game under Heinicke?  I took out the defensive scores vs the Texans and Eagles… maybe I’m missing something?

 

Doesn’t really take away from your point though.  The defense is giving the ball back to the offense more often, our oline, while not playing great, has gelled and found some consistency (and isn’t playing with the dead weight of Nick Martin, etc), and we’ve committed to the run.  And on top of that, if we throw out the Chicago game (because Wentz was playing with a broken finger), it goes to 20 points scored on average under Wentz vs 19.2 or so under Heinicke.  

 

It’s weird how we have 2 qbs, playing on the same team, over a similar sample size, yet we really can’t make an apples to apples comparison between them.  Even stranger when you can’t even compare them versus the one common team they both played against (Philly - because of the defensive changes, offensive lines, and offensive philosophy).  Or you could look at the two games they threw a similar number of passes (under the same offensive philosophy) - vs Chicago and vs Atlanta - but still can’t really conclude anything because Wentz broke his finger.

 

Rest of the season’s going to be interesting…

 

 

 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

18 minutes ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

 

Those are two different takes lol…but that being said, I’m not sure why you responded to my post? Just a jumping off point?

Yeah, I knew you were being sarcastic.  I was referring to the post you were responding to.

 

But those two different takes are typically a package deal to varying degrees.

Edited December 3, 2022 by BatteredFanSyndrome

[CommanderCarson]

22 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Basically anyone that argues Heinicke is much more than along for the ride, those who argue Turner is a problem, etc. 

I’m absolutely convinced at this point that you just don’t understand the emotional side of football and how much that matters.

 

Taylor is not the future, savior, or only reason we are winning games. Please quote the posts saying otherwise because I would like to address anyone who is posting any of these points. 
 

But he is contributing. To the way THIS team is built and is playing currently. And the guys play for him and respect him which absolutely matters and makes a difference. 
 

I literally feel crazy any time I see the anti heineke crowd talk about the heineke crowd as if people are saying he’s peyton manning and dissecting defenses and winning games all by himself and that Turner is holding the whole operation back. Who the hell is saying these things???
 

 

[goskins10]

1 hour ago, skinny21 said:

@goskins10I might have my math wrong, but I think the offense is averaging a little over 2 more points per game under Heinicke?  I took out the defensive scores vs the Texans and Eagles… maybe I’m missing something?

 

Doesn’t really take away from your point though.  The defense is giving the ball back to the offense more often, our oline, while not playing great, has gelled and found some consistency (and isn’t playing with the dead weight of Nick Martin, etc), and we’ve committed to the run.  And on top of that, if we throw out the Chicago game (because Wentz was playing with a broken finger), it goes to 20 points scored on average under Wentz vs 19.2 or so under Heinicke.  

 

It’s weird how we have 2 qbs, playing on the same team, over a similar sample size, yet we really can’t make an apples to apples comparison between them.  Even stranger when you can’t even compare them versus the one common team they both played against (Philly - because of the defensive changes, offensive lines, and offensive philosophy).  Or you could look at the two games they threw a similar number of passes (under the same offensive philosophy) - vs Chicago and vs Atlanta - but still can’t really conclude anything because Wentz broke his finger.

 

Rest of the season’s going to be interesting…

 

 

 

 

I had it at about 2.4 pts more the first 5 gms. I was saynig take out th Def scores and it's about even. My exact calculations before removing D TDs was 18 under the 1st 5 gms and 20.4 the last 7. If those are your numbers we are sligned. If not, then i may have made a math error. I typically do this stuff with Excel but did it quickly manually this time. Could have missed it. 

 

I am not a big fan of either QB but for me you have to go with who is winning even if it is somewhat despite them. Lose and it cvhanges. For me I would prefer Howell but I am pretty sure is the POs are still available then they will go to Carson. 

 

I hope everyone can agree that at least it's nice to have meaningful football in December, no matter how we got here. 

 

Edited December 3, 2022 by goskins10

[CommanderCarson]

2 minutes ago, CommanderCarson said:

I’m absolutely convinced at this point that you just don’t understand the emotional side of football and how much that matters.

 

Taylor is not the future, savior, or only reason we are winning games. Please quote the posts saying otherwise because I would like to address anyone who is posting any of these points. 
 

But he is contributing. To the way THIS team is built and is playing currently. And the guys play for him and respect him which absolutely matters and makes a difference. 
 

I literally feel crazy any time I see the anti heineke crowd talk about the heineke crowd as if people are saying he’s peyton manning and dissecting defenses and winning games all by himself and that Turner is holding the whole operation back. Who the hell is saying these things???

 

Like I’m not trying to be an a hole but can you please post some examples of recent posts to get a frame of reference for who you are arguing against?
 

 

Sorry had too much to drink for US world cup, meant to edit not quote and add. 

Edited December 3, 2022 by CommanderCarson

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

Legit question, does the ignore feature still ignore when posters quote you?

 

I’ve never used it, but sheesh I’m about sick of reading the same posts that lack self awareness in response to mine.

Edited December 3, 2022 by BatteredFanSyndrome

[CommanderCarson]

31 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Legit question, does the ignore feature still ignore when posters quote you?

 

I’ve never used it, but sheesh I’m about sick of reading the same posts that lack self awareness in response to mine.

Typical, can’t find any posts to back it up so resorts to acting like you are being attacked in crazy fashion 😂

 

Just ignore me don’t talk about it looking for attention.

[Voice_of_Reason]

24 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

 

I had it at about 2.4 pts more with TH. I was saynig take out th Def scores and it's about even. My exact calculations before removing D TDs was 18 under Carson and 20.4 under TH. If those are your numbers we are sligned. If not, then i may have made a math error. I typically do this stuff with Excel but did it quickly manually this time. Could have missed it. 

 

I am not a big fan of either QB but for me you have to go with who is winning even if it is somewhat despite them. Lose and it cvhanges. For me I would prefer Howell but I am pretty sure is the POs are still available then they will go to Carson. 

 

I hope everyone can agree that at least it's nice to have meaningful football in December, no matter how we got here. 

 

Based on the official NFL stats site, the Commanders have had one Fumble returned for a TD (that was the end of the Eagles game), one INT returned for a TD (that was the Fuller Pick-6 against Houston, and 1 Safety, which was caused by Payne in the first Eagles games.

 

So, the simple math:

Wentz Points in Games: 

Jax: 28

Det: 27

Phil: 6 (total 8, 2 get subtracted)

Dal: 10

Tenn: 17

Chc: 12

That's 100 points total, for an average of 16.6

 

TH Points in Games:

GB: 23

Ind: 17

Min: 17

Phil: 26 (subtract 6 for the defensive TD at the end of the game, there was no PAT)

Houston: 16: (Subtract 7 for the Fuller INT)

Atl: 19

That's 118 total points, or 19.6 PPG.

 

What's obvious are both stink. 

 

What's also notable is the offense actually started out better with Wentz, and then fell off a cliff.  I have been watching football a long time, the Philly and Dallas games were some of the worst OL play I've ever seen in my life.  Martin was in at Center, Norwell was struggling, Turner was so bad he got benched for Charles.  Cosmi was struggling until he got hurt, Lucas has played better.  

 

I also think you have to count 7 of TH's points as COMPLETE, TOTAL, ABSOULTE Luck, when the Back Judge knocked over a defender who, at the very least, was going to break up a TD pass to Samuel.  Probably picks it off, but let's not assume the INT.  Literally the only way that TD has a chance is an act of God, where he sent his mercenary Back Judge to knock down the defender.  

 

I basically think they are close, and I think a lot of the difference is made up by luck.  TH has had so many passes in defenders hands which have worked out. Wentz had none of that luck.  

 

I say all that, and I still don't think they should move away from TH until he struggles in a loss.  I think he struggled last week.  But they won.  If he struggles and they win, then you keep rolling it out.  

 

If he struggles and they lose, then at some point you have to say the luck has finally run out, and the fact he's been playing badly basically for all but the Eagles game, but getting away with it can't continue.  Then you make a change.

 

But there's no way you make a change now.  

 

[skinny21]

39 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

 

I had it at about 2.4 pts more with TH. I was saynig take out th Def scores and it's about even. My exact calculations before removing D TDs was 18 under Carson and 20.4 under TH. If those are your numbers we are sligned. If not, then i may have made a math error. I typically do this stuff with Excel but did it quickly manually this time. Could have missed it. 

 

I am not a big fan of either QB but for me you have to go with who is winning even if it is somewhat despite them. Lose and it cvhanges. For me I would prefer Howell but I am pretty sure is the POs are still available then they will go to Carson. 

 

I hope everyone can agree that at least it's nice to have meaningful football in December, no matter how we got here. 

 

Just to clarify and see if I have it right (definitely not trying to nitpick):

 

Wentz - 6 games, totaling 102 (scoring 28, 27, 8, 10, 17, 12).  No defensive scores.  Average of 17.

Heinicke - 6 games, totaling 131 (23, 17, 17, 32, 23, 19).  2 defensive scores (vs Philly and Houston), so subtracting 14 gets us to 117 scored on offense.  Average of 19.5

 

I think I was wrong about the average after throwing out the Chicago game… Wentz’s would be at 18 instead. 

 

Was there another defensive score I’m forgetting?  

 

Doesn’t really matter anyway, it’s way too reductionist to pin that change in point totals on the qb change given how much else has changed.

 

Anyway, I’m a fan of Heinicke (despite his obvious flaws), and I’m intrigued by what Wentz might do with this current version of the team (despite his obvious flaws), but I don’t have much faith we’re going anywhere with either one.  And yes, very much agree that it’s nice to still be playing for the season/playoffs at this point.  Who knows, maybe we (continue to) get lucky.  

 

 

BTW, I’m also with you that Howell is the one I really want to see have a chance.  Not likely happening this year, but given how this team is constructed (especially if we manage to improve the oline), this is a great situation for a young qb.  Sure, one could argue we might be squandering what we have in letting a young guy earn his lumps and develop on the field, but I don’t mind taking that chance over yet another (likely mediocre and likely somewhat pricey) journeyman.

 

 

Edit:  and of course I don’t see @Voice_of_Reason’s post with the safety factored into the numbers before I post mine.  Ah well.  Though I’ll see your blind luck td to Samuel and raise you the 2nd and goal from the 3 where we had Philly on the ropes, should have run it down their throats for the td… and the victory formation vs the Texans where we likely could have added a td (or at least a FG).  But yes, all things considered, I think it’s fair to say they’re roughly equal in scoring.

Edited December 3, 2022 by skinny21

[goskins10]

18 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

Just to clarify and see if I have it right (definitely not trying to nitpick):

 

Wentz - 6 games, totaling 102 (scoring 28, 27, 8, 10, 17, 12).  No defensive scores.  Average of 17.

Heinicke - 6 games, totaling 131 (23, 17, 17, 32, 23, 19).  2 defensive scores (vs Philly and Houston), so subtracting 14 gets us to 117 scored on offense.  Average of 19.5

 

I think I was wrong about the average after throwing out the Chicago game… Wentz’s would be at 18 instead. 

 

Was there another defensive score I’m forgetting?  

 

Doesn’t really matter anyway, it’s way too reductionist to pin that change in point totals on the qb change given how much else has changed.

 

Anyway, I’m a fan of Heinicke (despite his obvious flaws), and I’m intrigued by what Wentz might do with this current version of the team (despite his obvious flaws), but I don’t have much faith we’re going anywhere with either one.  And yes, very much agree that it’s nice to still be playing for the season/playoffs at this point.  Who knows, maybe we (continue to) get lucky.  

 

 

BTW, I’m also with you that Howell is the one I really want to see have a chance.  Not likely happening this year, but given how this team is constructed (especially if we manage to improve the oline), this is a great situation for a young qb.  Sure, one could argue we might be squandering what we have in letting a young guy earn his lumps and develop on the field, but I don’t mind taking that chance over yet another (likely mediocre and likely somewhat pricey) journeyman.

 

 

 

Also to @Voice_of_Reason 

 

I was not comparing Wentz to TH. I was pointing out that the D started playing better with Wentz - Chicago - that's when we started the 6-1 run not when TH started. So my numbers are the first 5 gms then the last 7 games. I said so in my first post but then followed up with TH vs Carson, whoich was never my intent. It's early and i multitasking. Sorry for the confusion. Here is what I was doing - should have just posted the data to start. 

 

So its 28, 27, 8, 10, 17 average 18 - the other 7 games average 20.4. I did not actaully do the math for the Def TDs - but 2 Tds over 7 gms is 2 pts/gm. So now it's just a .4 diff. 

 

I think we are aligned and now I hope the numbers make sense. 

Edited December 3, 2022 by goskins10

[Voice_of_Reason]

13 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

Edit:  and of course I don’t see @Voice_of_Reason’s post with the safety factored into the numbers before I post mine.  Ah well.  Though I’ll see your blind luck td to Samuel and raise you the 2nd and goal from the 3 where we had Philly on the ropes, should have run it down their throats for the td… and the victory formation vs the Texans where we likely could have added a td (or at least a FG).  But yes, all things considered, I think it’s fair to say they’re roughly equal in scoring.

There is no argument TH has gotten more lucky.  That’s not a bad tbh g, it just is what it is.  
 

Over time, those things even out.

 

The 3 biggest factors of the turn around are:

1. The defense started playing a lot better.  
2. They committed to running the ball 1950’s style, and Robinson has been good at that.

3. The Bears, GB, Indy, Houston and Falcons all stink and have bad QBs (exception: Rodgers) and are under .500.  We only played 2 good teams and we beat one and lost to the other. 
 

The other thing to note, and why I say some of this streak is lucky, the margin of victory has been 5, 2, 1, 5 (take out the last defensive TD as time expired for the Eagles on the lateral drill), 13 and 6.   
 

13 over the worst team in the NFL was our high water margin of victory.  All the others were 5 points or less.  
 

So many things have to go right to win this way.  
 

If the ball bounces the other way, those results can change.  
 

We are currently the rabbits foot team.  I hope the luck holds because TH is not capable of doing more than he is doing.  So they have to keep being lucky or they will start losing.  
 

 

[Jumbo]

1 hour ago, CommanderCarson said:

I’m absolutely convinced at this point that you just don’t understand the emotional side of football and how much that matters.

 

Really. How ridiculously presumptuous of you. Even trollish.

1 hour ago, CommanderCarson said:

 

I literally feel crazy any time I see the anti heineke crowd (edit)
 

 

 

Since you're calling for receipts (and doing so in poor form) make your next post in this forum is a list of more than two regular posters who are obviously fitting of being called "anti heinie" and are not just critiquing his performance in an appropriate manner or just challenging far more glowing commentary on his performance level in a fitting manner. 

 

As for your "literally" feeling crazy, it's not just the dumbness of the popular misuse of "literally" that stands out.

 

You joined in March and have shown little hesitation to insert trollish comments made at long time members in your content. I wonder if you'll make it a full year.

 

 

44 minutes ago, CommanderCarson said:

Typical, can’t find any posts to back it up so resorts to acting like you are being attacked in crazy fashion 😂

 

Just ignore me don’t talk about it looking for attention.

 

Whatever you think you're doing here, it's all wrong. 🙂

 

You're not charged with board management.

 

I'm going to sit on a temp ban for rule 12 violation for now and see how you do. 🙂

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

I gather some folks just go looking for what provokes them and overlook A LOT of posts. Throughout Heinicke Mania, one constant is the “nobody is saying…” posts when in fact there are indeed people saying this stuff.  Jumbo doesn’t just make his posts about the makeup of the posting here out of thin air.  

 

The lack of self awareness at times is astounding.  Often times in the same posts they are whining about being labeled a Hiver or whatever, they refer to their opposition as Anti-Heinicke or whatever.  
 

Contrary to popular belief, I’m not Anti Heinicke at all.  I hope we can ride whatever this is for as long as possible and never have to concern ourselves with Wentz.  I hope he really does recognize how many yards he’s left on the field by  passing instead of running and he looks more like the guy we all liked in his first half dozen starts or so.  I’d be elated if somehow we could Dilfer our way to the Super Bowl with Heinicke.

 

What would be nauseating though are the folks that would be posting relentlessly that it’s not Dilfer-like, that he’s spiritually lifting the team, that his ducks intro triple coverage are to keep defenses honest, that turnover worthy plays don’t matter, that if only Scott Turner did x, y and z he’d be way better, and on and on and on.

 

[Jumbo]

@BatteredFanSyndrome

 

I've been meaning to get to this:

 

Those of us who have come to know you over time, kinda know you.🙂😁

 

You're a good dude and solid es'er who doesn't do the dickhead shtick, even just once in awhile.  

 

That said, I want you in particular to drop the references to what the dudes who are more consistently "uber-pro" heinie, or even self-proclaimed hivers, are doing in their posts.

 

Just make your points without including a dig at "them." Or quote a specific post and make your claims against that individual using their actual content to support it.

 

To anyone: all I have been doing with all my posts on these matters is wanting to cut way down on the silly, usually inaccurate, and occasionally rule violating flame wars comments between posters. It reads like crap and keeps dumbing down discussion.

 

Meanwhile other posters are going that extra mile to make excellent pro and con debate/analysis in their posts. My hope is the vast majority of you can tell the diff but we've been having too much of the dumb stuff for quite awhile now imo.🙂