The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[TurningTheCorner]

There is so much more to being a thrower than a big arm.

 

I loved Lamar in college. Loved him coming out and couldn’t believe Baltimore stole him where they did.

 

But he was inaccurate and never came close to the season Jayden Daniels had as a passer in 2023. You could make the argument he could have gotten there with better talent around him and more time in school. But he didn’t so it’s all guesswork. That’s what makes the draft so intriguing though! 

[Voice_of_Reason]

15 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Simms saying that was the first time for the the Washington brass and Daniels to meet each other.  Really?

If there was a way for Simms and Florio to both spontaneously combust and remove themselves from the universe, that would be a blessing from God. 

 

And the side effect would be EVERYBODY would be smarter because of the subtraction of two of the most loathsome non-murderous dictators on the planet.  

 

Murderous dictators get a special characterization...

 

But they are RIGHT behind them. 

[Skinsinparadise]

5 minutes ago, RWJ said:

 

Can't say that again for awhile now.  How and why were you called that?  Just curious.    

 

Nursery school I'd guess.  It was a big show long ago. 

 

 

[zCommander]

6 minutes ago, RWJ said:

Hopefully, ES admins have a plan in place so this board doesn't go down during the draft, especially during the #2 overall pick.   

 

 

Yes. If people have joined ES on June 26, 2007 then only their post will show up on the draft day thread. 

[Skinsinparadise]

4 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

If there was a way for Simms and Florio to both spontaneously combust and remove themselves from the universe, that would be a blessing from God. 

 

And the side effect would be EVERYBODY would be smarter because of the subtraction of two of the most loathsome non-murderous dictators on the planet.  

 

Murderous dictators get a special characterization...

 

But they are RIGHT behind them. 

 

I don't even mind hot takes that much.  but what's annoying about both is they say things with total convinction.  And often its something that's flat out false.    Or their opinion is made as Fact.  Or they are just trying to stir trouble for clicks.

 

Sims used to be much better, Florio has turned him to the dark side. 

[seantaylor=god]

I’m a Maye guy (better tools, better breakout age, better frame, equal intangibles) but I could see them favoring Daniels if they want to utilize the RB in the passing game more. I know KK did that a lot and Maye has a lot of unforced errors (not pressure related) on these swing routes to the RB. Daniels has better touch and overall accuracy (except for his deep ball which can be underthrown) and a quicker release (physically, when he trusts what he sees). 

 

If we want to attack more intermediate slants, crosser,etc or go deep more Maye would be a better fit.

 

And I understand the valid criticism that when pressured Daniels looks to run but when he isn’t pressured he quickly goes through reads and delivers an accurate throw on time when he isn’t pressured. 

 

Maye’s misses can’t be explained by pressure alone, because a lot of the errant throws come on the quick throws.

 

If we pass on Maye for Daniels, I don’t foresee the Vikings taking Maye. I think they want Daniels or JJ. I don’t think Maye is a great fit for what they want to do, despite the familiarity with coaching staff. Maye is the anti-Cousins (good and bad). Maye is more off schedule ala Favre, Russell, Josh Allen. 

Edited April 22 by seantaylor=god

[Skinsinparadise]

8 minutes ago, NYSkins21 said:

I’m not saying Pierce in particular. He might be gone, you’re right. And I know things could change if we drafted JD. He could fall in love with our organization and DQ.

 

I’m just saying if he thinks the grass might be greener before he’s even drafted, has some vendetta against AP and his agent is purposely sending soft signals that he’d rather be somewhere else… Ya gotta look at it.

 

Not worried about it.

 

I'll take Keim at his word who knows some in his camp and he said he's heard that they would like going to Washington.

 

It's different with Antonio Pierce.  He recruited him, he's close to their family, etc.

[Jumbo]

1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I haven't been called Tonto in a long time.

 As a yute, I frequently used the phrase (from an ancient Lone Ranger joke) "what do you mean 'we', white man?" in homage to Tonto 😁

 

Here's a laugh:Tonto was a "supporting" reason to my choosing the Redskins as my team when I was six. I was one of the kids that always chose to be one of the "Indians" when playing cowboys and Indians. Had a kid bows then, a real 25-lb bow when I was 10, and a 40 lb bow when I was thirteen and started throwing knives and hatchets. Got a 65 lb Bear bow at seventeen.  I got very good at all of that, including being a devout Redskins fan. 🙂

 

But I digress....😁

[seantaylor=god]

Just now, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Not worried about it.

 

I'll take Keim at his word who knows some in his camp and he said he's heard that they would like going to Washington.

 

It's different with Antonio Pierce.  He recruited him, he's close to their family, etc.

Yeah, worrying about Daniels signing a second contract is not a worry to me at all. We are talking 5-7 years from now. 
 

By then, he could be married and have multiple kids and have ties to the area, etc. difference between age 23 and 30 is huge.

[Voice_of_Reason]

Random Monday thoughts:

 

1. Even with what Keim is saying that he wouldn't discount McCarthy, which is a change from him from a week ago, I think the Anchoice is between Maye and Daniels.

 

2. Daniels is a better passer and has better fundamentals than Lamar did coming out.  Lamar has a better arm. 

 

3. IF the book on Daniels is to keep him in the pocket and make him beat you with his arm, the million dollar question is "can he do it on the second level tight window throws?"  If the answer to that is yes, then he could be a top 5 QB.  If the answer to that is no, he is going to get hurt a lot because he's going to get sacked or try and escape and get beaten up.

 

4. The biggest question on Maye is if his inconsistency with accuracy is fixable.  If it is, he could be a top 5 QB.  If he can't, he will be Mitch Trubisky.

 

5.  Anybody saying "they know" what the pick is is trying to sell something.  Don't buy it.

 

6.  I personally think both of the two of them are VERY close. My preference is and has always been Maye, because I like the size and arm strength, and I think the other stuff is correctable with better coaching.  

 

7. I'd be totally fine with Daniels.  He's not a chump who can't play.  He can.  And I think Kliff and company can find a way to really utilize him to cause problems for the defense pre-snap so he gets easy reads early in the season.  

 

8. McCarthy: I didn't like his tape.  Really at all.  I don't see what the hubbub with him is all about.  But if Peters and company think he is the guy, eh, I'll trust them.  The biggest challenge with him is, and somebody on Keim's podcast brought this up, he had like 20+ games where he had less than 17 completions.  Because Michigan just didn't throw the ball.  So it's tough to know what he can do because he never did it.  

 

9. I hate the media.  Literally all of it.  Almost all the time.  From a personal agenda perspective, I hope Daniels drops to the Raiders in the teens and all of them are wrong so I can point and laugh at them. But I don't think that's going to happen. 

 

10.  I have been on the "Maye is the pick" side since before the combine.  I'm starting to feel like the pick will be Daniels IF AND ONLY IF he didn't eff it up with his 30 visit.  That's the big question at the moment.  If he was uncomfortable and they had issues with him at the visit, it might change things.  The agent stuff is irrelevant.  It's what THEY thought of HIM during the visit.  If they loved him, then I think he's the pick.  

[FlyBigBeard]

1 minute ago, seantaylor=god said:

Yeah, worrying about Daniels signing a second contract is not a worry to me at all. We are talking 5-7 years from now. 
 

By then, he could be married and have multiple kids and have ties to the area, etc. difference between age 23 and 30 is huge.

I'm not worried about him signing a second contract either, because he won't make it that far. The whole coaching staff will be fired before then because of him. Lol 🤣   

[Skinsinparadise]

3 minutes ago, Jumbo said:

 As a yute, I frequently used the phrase (from an ancient Lone Ranger joke) "what do you mean 'we', white man?" in homage to Tonto 😁

 

Here's a laugh:Tonto was a "supporting" reason to my choosing the Redskins as my team when I was six. I was one of the kids that always chose to be one of the "Indians" when playing cowboys and Indians. Had a kid bows then, a real 25-lb bow when I was 10, and a 40 lb bow when I was thirteen and started throwing knives and hatchets. Got a 65 lb Bear bow at seventeen.  I got very good at all of that, including being a devout Redskins fan. 🙂

 

But I digress....😁

 

Variation of that for me.

 

When I was a kid i was in the Indian Guides, and we do some kid bows on some outings.  Also I liked when playing Indians-Cowboys picking the Indians.

 

But that didn't alone do it for me.  It was my dad moving to DC and getting hooked to the team.  But it was part of the soup.

 

McConaughey's story centers on the Indian theme, too

 

 

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

5 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I don't even mind hot takes that much.  but what's annoying about both is they say things with total convinction.  And often its something that's flat out false.    Or their opinion is made as Fact.  Or they are just trying to stir trouble for clicks.

 

Sims used to be much better, Florio has turned him to the dark side. 

Simms used to be a hot take artist, and I THINK he got something right a while ago and has basically built his reputation around that thing, whatever it was.  

 

He's a no talent ass clown.  

 

Florio is just a liar.  I have used lots of colorful words to describe him, but at the end of the day, he's just a damn liar.  

 

I have no tolerance for liars in general, and really none in the media.  

 

How the hell they have jobs is beyond me.  But people listen to them and follow them.  

 

I really don't wish personal harm on people, I feel that is bad.  But I do wish they would disappear and not have a platform for stupidity.  

[The Consigliere]

10 minutes ago, TurningTheCorner said:

There is so much more to being a thrower than a big arm.

 

I loved Lamar in college. Loved him coming out and couldn’t believe Baltimore stole him where they did.

 

But he was inaccurate and never came close to the season Jayden Daniels had as a passer in 2023. You could make the argument he could have gotten there with better talent around him and more time in school. But he didn’t so it’s all guesswork. That’s what makes the draft so intriguing though! 

as an 18 year old: Jayden is 55th in QBR, Lamar is 27th

as a 19 year old, Lamar is 4th in QBR, Jayden's season is largely wiped out by covid (though he was top 10 in 4 games, the sample size renders it moot, if nice)

As a 20 year old Lamar is 4th in QBR again, Jayden is 41st.

As a 21 year old Lamar is drafted, goes 6-1 as a starter while struggling (31st in QBR), Daniels finally produces a season better than Lamar's freshman year at Louisville.

As a 22 year old Lamar is #1 in QBR in the NFL and Jayden Daniels as a fifth year senior finally produces his first truly elite season in college and first and only season better than Lamar's age 19 and age 20 seasons at Louisville. 

 

That's what makes all of this stupid as hell. When Daniels finally played like an NFL QB prospect worthy of a first round draft selection, Lamar was already an NFL Veteran who had produced the #1 QBR ranking in the NFL itself, after finishing college with two top 5 QBR finishes. 

 

They weren't in the same universe as prospects period. The only reason Daniels is not going to be passed over like Lamar was is #1 the work Mahomes, Lamar, Josh Allen and Kyler Murray did in the NFL while he was strugglebussing life at ASU and LSU '19-'21, and #2 the NFL is filled with idiots who move as a herd, and rarely against the grain. they follow trends, like middle school girls, and that's the only reason people now value dual threat QB's. 

[Llevron]

1 hour ago, mistertim said:

 

So now you're doing the "he doesn't always do that" straw man. He doesn't always do it as soon as there's pressure. But he does a lot. Which is the point. 

 

You turned my argument into a strawman because you cannot argue it. That is a you problem. I don't have to defend this stuff. But look at what you said, look at what I said, and then look at what you said I said. They differ a lot. You are defensive about the "he doesn't always do that" argument because its correct, he doesn't. You want to argue its a pattern of behavior that is difficult if not impossible to solve at the next level. I argue he is coached to do it, is making the correct, positive play. We have danced this dance before. Its why we used to be friends. 

 

Honestly if you are going to do this I don't know why we are even getting into this. You know what I'm going to say at this point. And I know you are going to accuse me of making strawman arguments. No fun in that for me. And I guarantee you can anticipate my responses to all these points by now. So soon we are just gonna skip all the typing and just grunt at each other. 

 

1 hour ago, mistertim said:

I'm sorry that statistic means nothing to you. But if you take a look at some of the guys who were nearly as low in that category and went to the NFL...well let's just say it's not very good company. 

 

The list of people good at that stat is not super good company either really. Unless you manipulate the numbers to only include people who got a second contract (ie isolate the good people). Then sure, you have a point. PFF, who loves this number, says all the time that its nebulous at best when it comes to predicting an NFL career. Only that its hard to improve on. Which I agree its hard to improve. Might be something he struggles with. 

 

1 hour ago, mistertim said:

And yes, often the results were good in college against inferior athletes. But the NFL is different and I don't think his running style is going to translate well. Especially with how thin he is and the nutso way he takes hits.

 

Speed kills at all levels. He has it. He will be effective. Define wont translate. Cause if you mean he wont be getting yards on the ground in the NFL then I couldn't disagree more and I don't think you have anyway to prove that. If you mean he will take such big hits that he will break then yes that is the worry we agree there. 

 

1 hour ago, mistertim said:

In the NFL he's inevitably going to get decleated multiple times, and it's probably only matter of time until the result is an injury. 

 

The hope will be he learns or his coach sits him before it ends his career. But it is a worry, yes. 

 

1 hour ago, mistertim said:

As far as WRs who can get open, it's not a matter of getting open, it's a matter of the difference between NFL open and college open. He's not going to have Nabers amd Thomas getting several yards of separation over and over.

 

And this is where his low amount of anticipation throws on tape could rear its head. The majority of the time, even on anticipation routes like comebacks and outs, he didn't throw the ball until he saw his guy open. 

 

He got away with it in college, especially since his receivers were getting so much separation. But that won't be the case in the NFL. Tons of those throws would have been picks in the pros. 

 

We watched offensive coordinators all over the NFL during the regular season and especially in the playoffs scheme guys wide open. Are we the only team in the league who is not planning to do that? Even if we are (the only team who wont scheme guys open) watching his film gives me no reason to believe he cant do this stuff. He has done it. He also looks to be really good staying on time and on schedule in the pocket. If there is a worry about him passing, its how often he does it outside of the planned offense. To me its easy to see what he could do in the correct structure. 

 

Honestly we have done this enough I know your points. I think they are valid. I just disagree with your analysis. Thats not what ended our friendship. It was that snake who got in between us. 

Edited April 22 by Llevron

[DogofWar1]

Hate is a powerful force.  Sometimes even more powerful than love.

 

Trent probably didn't love anywhere else.  But he hated Dan.

 

You want a guy's heart fully in it.

 

Now look, the evidence that JD doesn't wanna play here is speculative at best.  It warrants further investigation by the FO but that's their job not ours.

 

But just because we can tag and extend guys doesn't mean they suddenly become super happy.  If the relationship goes from mutual happiness to unhappiness, options and tags only treat the symptoms, and may make the underlying issue worse (like if they feel held hostage).

 

It's part of due diligence from the front office to think ahead.  This pick SHOULD be leading us for a decade plus.  Anything that might stand in the way of that needs to be evaluated and weighed in.

 

My 2 cents, worth nothing, is that Jayden is honestly just kinda a **** public speaker.  He's quiet and reserved.  When he tries to do tiktoks he's cringe.  So I suspect he's perfectly happy to play anywhere, no different than any other player in NFL history (besides Eli) he just does a bad job conveying it.

 

And his agent is an idiot to have started this story in the first place over annoyance at TopGolf.

[The Consigliere]

10 minutes ago, seantaylor=god said:

Yeah, worrying about Daniels signing a second contract is not a worry to me at all. We are talking 5-7 years from now. 
 

By then, he could be married and have multiple kids and have ties to the area, etc. difference between age 23 and 30 is huge.

It should be, the whole point of this is landing a decade long solution to the question of whether you have a franchise QB or not. 

[Skinsinparadise]

44 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Simms used to be a hot take artist, and I THINK he got something right a while ago and has basically built his reputation around that thing, whatever it was.  

 

He's a no talent ass clown.  

 

Florio is just a liar.  I have used lots of colorful words to describe him, but at the end of the day, he's just a damn liar.  

 

I have no tolerance for liars in general, and really none in the media.  

 

How the hell they have jobs is beyond me.  But people listen to them and follow them.  

 

I really don't wish personal harm on people, I feel that is bad.  But I do wish they would disappear and not have a platform for stupidity.  

 

I have more positive vibes about Simms from years ago, mostly because he'd make local radio appearances and he frequently among the national types was very upbeat about this team.  Maybe it was BS but he made you feel good.  

 

But in recent years he's gotten so arrogant.

 

I think there are some extreme takes on both sides of this Maye-Daniels debate.    But i find Riddick and Simms especially annoying.  they can prefer Daniels.  That's cool.  But both are making the point that Daniels is so far above the next class of QBs, that Washington is wrong for not making Daniels visit a corronation event versus an interview.  Give me a break.  I got no problem with differing opinions -- but it gets me going when some like they do act like their opinion is fact.

Edited April 22 by Skinsinparadise

[Dah-Dee]

10 minutes ago, FlyBigBeard said:

I'm not worried about him signing a second contract either, because he won't make it that far. The whole coaching staff will be fired before then because of him. Lol 🤣   

 

No silly, Daniels is going to literally get broken in two the first time he scrambles. Keep things straight, it's Maye who will get everyone fired:

 

 

 

[The Consigliere]

5 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Simms used to be a hot take artist, and I THINK he got something right a while ago and has basically built his reputation around that thing, whatever it was.  

 

He's a no talent ass clown.  

 

Florio is just a liar.  I have used lots of colorful words to describe him, but at the end of the day, he's just a damn liar.  

 

I have no tolerance for liars in general, and really none in the media.  

 

How the hell they have jobs is beyond me.  But people listen to them and follow them.  

 

I really don't wish personal harm on people, I feel that is bad.  But I do wish they would disappear and not have a platform for stupidity.  

Florio's an insider w/a website that broke rumors and some of them have hit over the years, the guy who you really should hate, although he's soil at this point was Fred Edelstein, not only was he always full of ----, and unapologetic, apparently he also did some time after being on espn for several years as a talentless, hack self-promoting scumbag. He was the penultimate, Florio can't hold his jock in terms of false rumors, and nonsense-self promotion, Florio actually has produced some utility over the years. I'm still trying to figure out how Edelstein ever got onto espn in the first place, and as a west coaster, I can't help but wonder if it was the 1 billionth example of east coast biases in all things sports. Thankfully he didn't last that long. It would be hilarious to see how the age of social media dealt with Edelstein's bull---- though, would be hilarious, otoh, his sell by date would probably be much shorter. 

[FlyBigBeard]

3 minutes ago, The Consigliere said:

as an 18 year old: Jayden is 55th in QBR, Lamar is 27th

as a 19 year old, Lamar is 4th in QBR, Jayden's season is largely wiped out by covid (though he was top 10 in 4 games, the sample size renders it moot, if nice)

As a 20 year old Lamar is 4th in QBR again, Jayden is 41st.

As a 21 year old Lamar is drafted, goes 6-1 as a starter while struggling (31st in QBR), Daniels finally produces a season better than Lamar's freshman year at Louisville.

As a 22 year old Lamar is #1 in QBR in the NFL and Jayden Daniels as a fifth year senior finally produces his first truly elite season in college and first and only season better than Lamar's age 19 and age 20 seasons at Louisville. 

 

That's what makes all of this stupid as hell. When Daniels finally played like an NFL QB prospect worthy of a first round draft selection, Lamar was already an NFL Veteran who had produced the #1 QBR ranking in the NFL itself, after finishing college with two top 5 QBR finishes. 

 

They weren't in the same universe as prospects period. The only reason Daniels is not going to be passed over like Lamar was is #1 the work Mahomes, Lamar, Josh Allen and Kyler Murray did in the NFL while he was strugglebussing life at ASU and LSU '19-'21, and #2 the NFL is filled with idiots who move as a herd, and rarely against the grain. they follow trends, like middle school girls, and that's the only reason people now value dual threat QB's. 

Thank goodness somebody finally pulled the stats out. He is no Lamar not even close. Just because he's a dual threat doesn't mean he's Lamar. And you're totally right. NFL follows trends like school girls. Lamar is better at everything then him in college. Yet he was drafted 32nd overall now a Dollar General version of Lamar is worthy of the 2nd overall pick? Who only had one good season  because he had elite talent around him. Come on man haha 🤣 

[seantaylor=god]

I think it’s important to remember that there are multiple ways a QB can be successful. I’m sure you can imagine the contemporary examples I’m thinking of. Some QBs operate extremely well in structure and are uber efficient, others don’t, but make crazy off schedule plays with great frequency. Some have elite arms, some don’t. Some move in the pocket under pressure and throw, others run. Some run to pass, others run to run. Some have a fastest release, while others have faster processing of defenses. Some make great decisions and others can make some bonehead plays occasionally.
 

A slow release AND slow processing is usually tough to win with, but a heavy read option look could mitigate that by having easy reads and big windows to throw. Obviously a fast release and fast processing is ideal and tough to defend.
 

Weaknesses can be masked by strengths in other areas. Weaknesses can often be improved upon with work if the QB has the intelligence and work ethic. Others can be mitigated by scheme.

 

A prospect with all the intangibles, work ethic, leadership, an elite arm, elite decision making, extremely fast release, pocket escapability, off schedule play maker who also can operate in a heavy ultra structured timing offense and also make throws from any arm angle, and run, and is 6’6 250, does not exist. There has never been a prospect that has every tool when coming out of college. Mahomes is the only player currently who I would say this applies to and he is on a HOF and best QB of all time trajectory. He did not have every tool coming out of college, he developed.

 

So it’s about intangibles and what weaknesses we can live with and improve upon.

 

 

Edited April 22 by seantaylor=god

[Skinsinparadise]

Speaking of Simms his mock is out, I bet this ends up one of the most inaccurate ones

 

 

[Llevron]

I think discounting Daniels progress made over his career is only doing you a disservice. Clearly people are taking that into account and it sounds like they are weighing it heavily. Sounds to me its something they like about him, versus the argument that he is a one year wonder. At least, they are willing to role the dice on the prospect that is the case. 

[Idaho fan]

^ Just can't see Maye falling to #11.  Other than that I don't mind that Mock.