The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[skinsfan66]

11 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I want Maye too.  But the Daniels hate here is wild and over the top IMO -- its not consistent at all with the takes on Daniels judging by stories-leaks-people who know him, NFL observors on and on.      Outside of here, he's an exciting prospect.  Here the dude is a cross between Josh Johnson and Colt McCoy.

 

Even though I am one of the more optimistic people in the context that I think the pick still can be Maye but it feels like Daniels has a legit shot.

 

So what happens if they take Daniels, I gather deep depression from some then.  And then the Peters honeymoon is either over or some will come up with some narrative that the poor dude was coerced into making the decision. 😢

 

 

 

 

 

It's not hate, Age, QB style fragile... for me and most. It's not about no.s , metrics. Seems to be a good Person too. I think there is more hate for J.J. then J.D. too.

[Chump Bailey]

@Skinsinparadise What is your take on McCarthy? I must have missed your take on him. While he may very well be just generating smoke more than anything in this process, for me, he is a legit riser. 

[Skinsinparadise]

11 minutes ago, skinsfan66 said:

It's not hate, Age, QB style fragile... for me and most. It's not about no.s , metrics. Seems to be a good Person too. I think there is more hate for J.J. then J.D. too.

 

I haven't quantified it but some of the loudest posts here, go beyond him being 23 and he's vulnerable to injury. They don't seem to think much of the player at least in the context of being a top player.  In general, its painted here as a slam dunk easy decision to pick Maye over Daniels so absurdly easy -- that some question whether scouts are lying to reporters as to who they prefer if they say Daniels.  Peters job should already be in jeopardy if he takes him.  On and on. 

 

It's very negative on Daniels here compared to everything else I read and watch which is a ton.  Hours a day, its an unhealthy this draft addiction.   I'll need to find a new hobby next month.

 

 

Edited April 17 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

7 minutes ago, Chump Bailey said:

@Skinsinparadise What is your take on McCarthy? I must have missed your take on him. While he may very well be just generating smoke more than anything in this process, for me, he is a legit riser. 

 

Cliff notes.

 

Love the intangibles.  His arm is stronger IMO than some of his critics here say it is.

 

Outside of Caleb, the best off platform QB in this group as to consistency.

 

Clutch -- big plays on third and long.

 

Good wheels that I would use more.

 

Don't love his ability to layer throws and change speeds -- stuff that Maye IMO is good at.

 

There is something missing that is hard to quantitfy for me while watching him that makes me think his ceiling is limited.  But he has a high floor.  He reminds me of a cross of college Tannehill (college Tannehill was great with boots and was an underrated athlete) and Alex Smith.

[Chump Bailey]

8 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

There is something missing that is hard to quantitfy for me while watching him that makes me think his ceiling is limited. 

 

Lol, that's pretty much how I feel about Maye aside from the ceiling aspect. Even though I frown on Maye to an extent, I do believe he is certainly capable of getting much better in time. 

[KDawg]

45 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Cliff notes.

 

Love the intangibles.  His arm is stronger IMO than some of his critics here say it is.

 

Outside of Caleb, the best off platform QB in this group as to consistency.

 

Clutch -- big plays on third and long.

 

Good wheels that I would use more.

 

Don't love his ability to layer throws and change speeds -- stuff that Maye IMO is good at.

 

There is something missing that is hard to quantitfy for me while watching him that makes me think his ceiling is limited.  But he has a high floor.  He reminds me of a cross of college Tannehill (college Tannehill was great with boots and was an underrated athlete) and Alex Smith.

 

I have the opposite feeling on McCarthy vs. Daniels for you. I think Daniels has very limited potential... but not because of his overall skill set. That potential is through the roof. But because he is going to need to change his running style in the NFL and if he doesn't he's going to be constantly banged up due to size.

 

Though, to be fair and to kind of walk my own take back a touch... 

 

McCarthy is very similar size wise. So I have SOME similar concerns. He just seems to protect himself better. But I still have the concerns for him, too. 

[CommanderInTheRye]

8 hours ago, TurningTheCorner said:

15 pounds of fluid bulks up your quads and biceps?! Wow I need to start hitting the 

 

 

😆

 

 

XXXXXXXX

 

CITR said: Manziel seemed sensible...

 

 

8 hours ago, Dah-Dee said:

 

 

 

Our universe must have just split off from the previous one, because Manziel appearing sensible is a clear sign we've stepped into an alternate realty. lol

 

 

Edited April 17 by CommanderInTheRye

[Professor_Nutter_Butter]

I feel like there's too much smoke for the pick to be Daniels for it actually to be him.

[Conn]

I struggle to get past this

[Going Commando]

He's not Lamar.  Set aside that they are at the opposite ends of the spectrum of precocious early career stardom vs late blooming.  Lamar spent the first five years of his career making a living throwing to tight ends in the middle of the field.  The first and second levels in the middle zones are where he is comfortable. If you call a shallow cross for Jayden, he is going to wait until Brian Thomas is well clear of the NFL hashes before throwing it.  You better be able to pass protect for a long time with him behind center.

[Llevron]

Why would Jayden Daniel have thrown to a TE in college? Its arguably the wrong play every time lol 

 

I think yall forget they were trying to win games sometimes. 

 

Edit: I had to google to even prove he had as TE. Someone name him. Quick! 

Edited April 17 by Llevron

[FootballZombie]

3 minutes ago, Conn said:

I struggle to get past this

 

Then... don't.

 

I get that there are not a ton of QBs who have done what these guys can do running the football, but Lamar is a poor comp for JD, especially coming outta college. JD is going to come off the board waaaaay sooner than Lamar did because of what he has shown w/ his passing.

 

 

Coming out Lamar was a freaky athlete that you just prayed could develop into a decent passer. After undergoing a level of growth that only Josh Allen has really matched, he's done that. Not even close to the same pathway that will be expected of JD.

[Warhead36]

Daniels ain't Jackson. Jackson won a league MVP at Daniels's current age. Won a Heisman at age 20. Lit it up playing for a mediocre at best Louisville program. He's also a different style runner. Way more elusive.

[Skinsinparadise]

59 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

I have the opposite feeling on McCarthy vs. Daniels for you. I think Daniels has very limited potential... but not because of his overall skill set. That potential is through the roof. But because he is going to need to change his running style in the NFL and if he doesn't he's going to be constantly banged up due to size.

 

Though, to be fair and to kind of walk my own take back a touch... 

 

McCarthy is very similar size wise. So I have SOME similar concerns. He just seems to protect himself better. But I still have the concerns for him, too. 

 

Not sure if its different.  All you did is reframe potential based on the trait of durability which is not the traditional way to define potential but its all good.

 

In no place, have I defended Daniels on the durability front.  It's actually my main theme of why I prefer Maye.

 

But the sentiment from some here (not you) that this is some absurd choice between one prospect that is so miles above the other that we have to question the football intelligence for anyone who thinks differently or even their honesty because there is no way they can think this way -- is a wildly extreme position. 

 

I was just listening to Matt Bowen who is a smart dude and have enjoyed listening to for years about X's and O's.  He prefers Daniels.  It's OK.  He's not IMO a moron.    There are plenty like him.  There are smart people who like Maye.  There are smart people who like Daniels.  Heck even McCarthy.  It's just different opinions.

 

And look I still think Maye can be the choice.  But i agree with a point you made not long ago, its OK no matter who they choose. Let it ride.  There is no crazy train choice in the mix in spite of what some contend here IMHO. 

 

 

Edited April 17 by Skinsinparadise

[Llevron]

1 minute ago, Warhead36 said:

Daniels ain't Jackson. Jackson won a league MVP at Daniels's current age. Won a Heisman at age 20. Lit it up playing for a mediocre at best Louisville program. He's also a different style runner. Way more elusive.

 

Why are we so hung up on current age again? It seems silly to me but I understand there is some kind of indicator yall have honed in on that says if you are not an MVP before you are 23 then you are more likely to bust in the NFL? Something like that right? 

[Bifflog]

7 minutes ago, Llevron said:

Why would Jayden Daniel have thrown to a TE in college? Its arguably the wrong play every time lol 

 

I think yall forget they were trying to win games sometimes. 

 

Edit: I had to google to even prove he had as TE. Someone name him. Quick! 

 

In watching the entire Jayden every throw and run video on youtube, one of my biggest thoughts was this TE is effing terrible (the other being these WR's are awesome).

[CommanderInTheRye]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I trust my eyes with QBs on basically three things.   Running because I have some background in that....

 

You didn't think a juicy pregnant statement like that was gonna get past unnoticed with this crew of heathens did you?

 

Dude, don't tell me twinkletoes SIPpy was a toe tapping  scatback that left players ankles broken on the way to busting another long run or maybe you were one of those big rig bruising bull dozing Bronco Nagurski types, that left a line of broken bodies and bloody noses in your wake.

 

Spill the tea, bro!

[Llevron]

Just now, CommanderInTheRye said:

 

You didn't think a juicy pregnant statement like that was gonna get past unnoticed with this crew of heathens did you?

 

Dude, don't tell me twinkletoes SIPpy was a toe tapping  scatback that left players ankles broken on the way to busting another long run or maybe you were one of those big rig bruising bull dozing Bronco Nagurski types, that left a line of broken bodies and bloody noses in your wake.

 

Spill the tea, bro!

 

He has teased it more than a few times and im waiting for him to upload the highlights. I know they had cameras back then too! 

[CommanderInTheRye]

Just now, Llevron said:

 

He has teased it more than a few times and im waiting for him to upload the highlights. I know they had cameras back then too! 

 

 

Shall we have crumpets or proper cucumber sandwiches with our tea today?

 

 

[jg77]

It's okay to say something good about Daniels without prefacing your comment with "I prefer Maye" and "I want Maye".

 

24 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Daniels ain't Jackson. Jackson won a league MVP at Daniels's current age. Won a Heisman at age 20. Lit it up playing for a mediocre at best Louisville program. He's also a different style runner. Way more elusive.

 

What was your 2018 QB Rankings? Be honest.

Edited April 17 by jg77

[Warhead36]

13 minutes ago, Llevron said:

 

Why are we so hung up on current age again? It seems silly to me but I understand there is some kind of indicator yall have honed in on that says if you are not an MVP before you are 23 then you are more likely to bust in the NFL? Something like that right? 

There are a few reasons:

 

1. Breakout age is highly correlated to NFL success. Typically, the best NFL players are ones who breakout early. The age is usually around 21-22 at the latest. There is actually a spreadsheet on Reddit that shows all the current NFL all pros and the age in which they were drafted. Almost all of them were drafted in the 21 range. A few 22. I think the only one at 23 was George Kittle and maybe a couple of OL.

2. Daniels's advanced age dilutes his college success. Its a lot easier to look good when you have five years of experience and are 23 going up against 20-21 year olds with a lot less experience. Especially when Daniels's biggest competitors at his position are super young(both Maye and McCarthy are only 21, and Maye looked fantastic in his age 20 season compared to Daniels being pretty "meh.")

3. NFL growth potential is limited the older you are. This is even more of an issue for a guy like Daniels whos game relies on mobility/athleticism. Traits like that tend to drop off around age 27(even Jackson is slowing down a bit at 27 but he's still lightning fast and improved a lot as a passer). So we get a guy like Daniels, the prime window is essentially only four years until he starts to hit that physical decline, and its uncertain if his passing can make up for it since he has an average at best arm.

6 minutes ago, jg77 said:

It's okay to say something good about Daniels without prefacing your comment with "I prefer Maye" and "I want Maye".

What was your 2018 QB Rankings? Be honest.

I definitely took an L on Rosen. Liked him a lot. Mayfield was my #1. Rosen 2. Did not like Allen at all. Darnold I was unsure about. Jackson I felt in the right system could have an RG3 like early impact but was uncertain about his passing ability.

 

If I had to rank them it would have looked like:

 

1. Mayfield

2. Rosen

3. Darnold

4. Jackson

5. Allen

 

So yeah, I whiffed on Jackson and Allen, but just about the entire league did. Mayfield has been solid. My big L was Rosen, but I also was not privy to the personality stuff.

 

But I also didn't really analyze any of the QBs that hard that year, since we weren't going to pick any of them anyway. 

[Conn]

26 minutes ago, FootballZombie said:

 

Then... don't.

 

I get that there are not a ton of QBs who have done what these guys can do running the football, but Lamar is a poor comp for JD, especially coming outta college. JD is going to come off the board waaaaay sooner than Lamar did because of what he has shown w/ his passing.

 

 

Coming out Lamar was a freaky athlete that you just prayed could develop into a decent passer. After undergoing a level of growth that only Josh Allen has really matched, he's done that. Not even close to the same pathway that will be expected of JD.

I’m not talking about the Lamar comp, I don’t care about that. I’m talking about the 5th year breakout and where someone like Maye would be if he had 4-5 years (and what that means for where he could be halfway through his rookie contract).
 

Also, Lamar would easily be a top-5 pick now just half a decade later (of course this is a paradox because Lamar’s performance paved the way for this to be true, but you know what I mean). A Lamar clone (which Daniels is not) would go top-5 easily now, is a better way to say it. But again, not the part of the tweet I was saying I struggle to get past—I agree they aren’t alike. 

[Skinsinparadise]

33 minutes ago, CommanderInTheRye said:

 

You didn't think a juicy pregnant statement like that was gonna get past unnoticed with this crew of heathens did you?

 

Dude, don't tell me twinkletoes SIPpy was a toe tapping  scatback that left players ankles broken on the way to busting another long run or maybe you were one of those big rig bruising bull dozing Bronco Nagurski types, that left a line of broken bodies and bloody noses in your wake.

 

Spill the tea, bro!

 

I'll get a hard time from @wit33 for this.  Heck even though he talks about his basketball background. 

 

I used to run track.  Played a lot of sports, nothing professional of course but i was often the fastest player in whatever sport I played so I know how to use speed.

 

My last hurrah was at the SB Experience, same event that Terry McLaurin was at which was cool, years ago, they had a 40 yard dash contest in different waves and I outran everyone there including a few teenagers.  But 2 years later my son challenged me to a race and beat me.  So lol, I've been training for a rematch.

 

With all of this QB talk, its in the eye of the beholder.  I am reading a post just now from someone that its Daniels who struggles with first level throws.  To my eyes that was Maye's weakness.  Daniels looks good to me on that front.  On the 2nd level, Maye is masterful.  Daniels doesn't throw nearly enough on the 2nd level but when he did he looked accurate, I looked at his PFF scores and that backs it up.

 

Both dudes have strengths and weaknesses.  It depends on what you focus on.  For example I feel a bit better about Daniels potential throwing off platform and on the 2nd level after doing some heavy watching of him this weekend because when he does both, he's good at it.   Also feel a little better about pressure to sack ratio because a bunch of that was on designed runs that were stopped in their tracks.   Maye's pressure sack ratio was almost exactly the same number as Daniels last year.

 

I also felt better about Maye.  Maye's bad games were bad.  He showed though flashes in them.  But his good games were VERY good.

 

If I want to slam the heck out of either player, it would be easy because neither is perfect and just like life if I focused just on someone's flaws they'd look like train wrecks.  But real life is about strengths and weaknesses.  Just like I slammed the idea of Riddick years ago cherry picking some throws to sell that Haskins can do this or that -- I also slam the idea of isolating negative throws because heck everyone has them.  And my issue with Riddick on Haskins wasn't highlighting those throws but it was that he discounted that Haskins generally struggled with those same throws. 

 

I don't find for example Daniels really struggling with 2nd level throws or making off platform throws when he actually makes them.  His intermediate accuracy grade and completion rate off platform ironically are both higher than Maye.  But Maye makes these throws routinely while Daniels doesn't really use them much of a tool and that IMO has to change for him to be successful in the league but I have some optimism that he will.

Edited April 17 by Skinsinparadise

[KDawg]

29 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

 

And look I still Maye can be the choice.  But i agree with a point you made not long ago, its OK no matter who they choose. Let it ride.  There is no crazy train choice in the mix in spite of what some contend here IMHO. 

 

 

 

And I still believe this. I think if Daniels stays healthy he has superstar written all over him. I worry about our team having the necessary support right off the bat, but we are doing the right things. I'm in for whoever. 

 

I think I'd be MOST disappointed with Daniels... but not disappointed. If that makes sense. Dude has a ceiling that defies the word ceiling.

[Skinsinparadise]

2 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

And I still believe this. I think if Daniels stays healthy he has superstar written all over him. I worry about our team having the necessary support right off the bat, but we are doing the right things. I'm in for whoever. 

 

I like this GM and staff so I do think they likely will support him because its obvious that they must.   Will see.  Agree if the dude stays healthy he has superstar written all over him and also agree its a big if.

 

2 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

 

I think I'd be MOST disappointed with Daniels... but not disappointed. If that makes sense. Dude has a ceiling that defies the word ceiling.

 

I'd take your same point but make it about McCarthy.  I am relatively high on McCarthy but I do think the other two are superior prospects.  But there is nothing they can do that would get me pissed aside from trading down and passing on a QB. 

Edited April 17 by Skinsinparadise