The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Skinsinparadise]

5 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

 

I'm sure that he did extensively scout Maye while he was in San Francisco, because traveling to schools and scouting star college players was the primary role of his job.  Maye was a known top five pick coming into this season, and he's a quarterback.  You do the work on players like this, even if your team won't realistically be in range to draft them.

 

I also think there is strong chance that he does love Maye.  I love Maye and think he's a super blue chip prospect, and if I can see it, then it's not surprising that an expert like Peters would see it.  But the decision to pick Maye at 2 isn't as simple as just taking the job and handing the card in on draft day for Peters.  He has to build a plan for Maye and then build consensus for him among the key members of the organization.  You have to sell ownership on him.  You have to get the coaching staff 100% on board.  But since he hired the coaching staff, you'd think part of that process was finding people that share his point of view on the game and are willing to buy in to his plans.

 

He has to sell it to an extent.  But as Quinn said its Peters call in the end.   Agree that if Peters had any predisposition it was likely shared and discussed with the coaching hires.

[TheGoodBits]

3 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

While I am rooting for this to be true.  Unless am missing something this is a fan draft web site.  With 8000 or so followers and no names attached to it.

The purchased blue check mark strikes again... 

[DogofWar1]

1 hour ago, Est.1974 said:

We pick a QB at #2…

 

How long would you be prepared to give that player to develop before they are at a level competent enough to start ? A season ?

 

Sure.

 

The year to see what your QB is made of is year 3.  You want a very good year 3 and if they haven't put together a really good year by then odds aren't amazing for the rest of their career.  Well above 200 ypg, ideally close to 2 tds per game and hopefully less than 1 int per game.

 

Now experience is an important part of the learning process, so I'm not gonna go full Packers but there is a mix of theory, practicing, and game experience that is gonna mazimize a player's potential and it's gonna be different for each player.

 

For some people you want to get them in week 1 year 1.  If they played in a pro system and their mechanics are great (think Luck/Peyton Manning) then they need experience.  If they need mechanics work then they may need to spend some extra time in practice.  Or maybe they came from some weird college system and need time to learn the NFL system.

 

As has been discussed, Maye has some mechanical quirks he needs to work on.  It's potentially damaging to go to the experience phase before drilling the mechanical side.  Daniels is probably a little farther along on certain mechanics and mostly needs experience throwing across the middle which is gonna be some combo of practice and experience.

 

I suspect none of the top 4 need a full year, honestly.  I've been thinking like maybe 4 weeks for Daniels, maybe 6-8 for Maye. 

 

But if they need a little more time in the oven you give them it.  You don't serve chicken at 135 degrees internal bc you told everyone dinner at 7 and that's where they were at 7.  No you throw some rolls at those people and get the chicken to 165 internal.

[Llevron]

11 minutes ago, FootballZombie said:

 

I'm pretty sure we will bring in Maye for a Top 30 visit too which will make this line of thinking look silly but aside from that, this has gotta be one of the takes of all time.

 

You can't see any good reasons to bring in a QB your considering w/ a top #2 pick? Not one?

 

Correct. It all leads to Maye. Its science so you cant argue it. 

 

(let me have my dreams Zombie, you can have my brains)

Edited April 5 by Llevron

[Going Commando]

1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

He has to sell it to an extent.  But as Quinn said its Peters call in the end.   Agree that if Peters had any predisposition it was likely shared and discussed with the coaching hires.

 

True.  But if you want people to do their best work, you need to get genuine buy-in.  You need people to feel inspired to work and have a lot of personal stake in the product, and be willing to make sacrifices.  It'd be dangerous to have a lot of colleagues on the staff (or in the ownership circle) who think you've made a big mistake and start making business decisions instead of making it work.

 

A lack of organization-wide consensus on the QB prospects we've drafted here is one of the biggest reasons they all failed IMO.  At a minimum, everyone important here needs to be married to the same plan at QB, and ideally, they would all believe in it.

[DiscoBob]

10 minutes ago, MartinC said:

Oh for sure. I think its almost a lock whoever we pick at #2 will start day 1. But can imagine this Board after about 5 starts if whoever the pick is struggles ...

 

Got to look at this as a project and trust the process.

 

Exactly... If we have a certified STUD QB and we had to sit him for 1-2 years to get there, anybody whose sat through the misery of the last 3 decades would gladly sign up.  I completely understand wanting a player to hit sooner rather than later, but that's a distant concern when compared to whether or not the pick hits.

 

I'm not arguing whether or not playing through a rough season or two is better / worse than sitting.  I'm advocating for a "I don't care how you got there" approach, as long as we get there.

[Skinsinparadise]

2 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

 

True.  But if you want people to do their best work, you need to get genuine buy-in.  You need people to feel inspired to work and have a lot of personal stake in the product, and be willing to make sacrifices.  It'd be dangerous to have a lot of colleagues on the staff (or in the ownership circle) who think you've made a big mistake and start making business decisions instead of making it work.

 

A lack of organization-wide consensus on the QB prospects we've drafted here is one of the biggest reasons they all failed IMO.  At a minimum, everyone important here needs to be married to the same plan at QB, and ideally, they would all believe in it.

 

Agree.  though judging by Quinn's comments about Peters he at least trusts him.  Quinn in an interview mentioned watching a QB with Peters for hours where Peters explained to him what he was looking for and why.  Quinn said after that session he went back to talk to his wife and told her, this dude (Peters) is a stud.

 

So at least in that interview, Quinn came off very deferential to Peters.  Not just because of the hierarchy but because he trusted his acumen.

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

Maye is scheduled to visit the facility on the 26th.

[illone]

Is there any possibility that Penix is the target?

 

🎯 

 

 

[mudhog]

5 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

If we do decide that Maye should sit, I doubt he'd end up sitting the entire season. He's not that raw and he's good enough that I would guess by like mid-October his stuff will be mostly cleaned up and at that point he'll need live reps and we'll wanna start that clock right away. And Mariota isn't any good and we'll probably be like 2-5 or something anyway.

 

The crazy dream scenario is Mariota actually plays well but we aren't in contention and we can flip him for a mid round pick to a QB desperate team at the deadline and then start Maye.

Just curious, why DID we grab Mariota instead of another QB for back-up? His career stats are just atrocious.

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, actorguy1 said:

Love and respect Keim as much as anyone here but when it comes to actually predicting who they will take in the ESPN mock draft every year he has missed. He is always in the ballpark but has not quite got it.

 

You've been hitting this point a few times of late with me.  i gather it's because you don't think his take on who this team will make means much?  Otherwise i don't get the purpose of it.

 

If so its cool.  I respectfully disagree.

 

We are are picking 2 not 17.  So having a few possibilities is normal in that range when you are picking 10-20.  And Forbes, Dotson, Jamin Davis weren't exactly universal names where everyone thought that's who we'd take.   But who said we might, Keim.

 

Like I said, I was the only one who guessed it that day where we had a contest on the board to guess their pick. Not because of anything aside from Keim said he's a possibility and suggested they are locked into the LB spot in round 1.

 

Last time we picked at #2, he nailed it.  It's a different drill than picking in the mid first.   And he's been close enough in the mid first. 

 

Though again Keim has not predicted yet who this team will take.  He simply said that's his best guess at THIS moment.  

Edited April 5 by Skinsinparadise

[FootballZombie]

6 minutes ago, mudhog said:

Just curious, why DID we grab Mariota instead of another QB for back-up? His career stats are just atrocious.

 

Mariota checks a ton of boxes. We could not just grab any vet QB.

 

 

-Had to be a guy who would have to provide a positive impact on a rook and help him come along. That requires some level of history working alongside young talent. You absolutely don't want a guy who will simply be there to compete for his own personal interest and have the "its no my job to mentor" mentality. (See Tannehill-Willis, its bad for everybody) Mariota has worked alongside young talent in the shape of Ridder and Hurts and we have had positive takeaways from his work with them.

 

-Had to probably be a guy who would have to be comfortable not being given a handshake deal to start given our situation in the draft. Mariota in his opening presser made very clear he is willing to do whatever the org wants him to. If they need him to be big bro and mentor a dude he is game, if he has gotta come in and start he'd do it to.

 

-If your want to run a playbook with a lot of QB runs, similar to what Kliff and Johnson have done in the past, then you need a guy who can run. Mariota can run.

 

-Willing to come for 6 Mil. Pretty cheap.

 

-He has a history of working with some of our staff as recently as last season. Makes the transition easier.

[Going Commando]

22 minutes ago, mudhog said:

Just curious, why DID we grab Mariota instead of another QB for back-up? His career stats are just atrocious.

 

Mariota is a professional back up QB who is humble and steady.  He can win as a spot starter, and he'll model good habits and be a useful resource to a rookie.  He's been through it as a former high draft pick himself.  He's also not going to generate a QB controversy by being a viable alternative as a long term starter.  That's pretty much what you're looking for in the vet back up QB role.

[DiscoBob]

42 minutes ago, illone said:

Is there any possibility that Penix is the target?

 

🎯

 

 

 

🍆 nope 🍆

[mudhog]

6 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

What doesn't add up about it?  And what is he involved in?  Making things up to prop up Daniels?  If so why would he care and why would he do a major detour of that kind in his 20 year plus career?

 

 

How is he going against his instintcts?  He said he talked to a bunch of coaches and that's what they said.  There is zero to verify 7 times.  He's talking directly to coaches and that's what he's being told by them.

 

 

i have watched a ton, too, as most of us have here.  Look, like you I prefer Maye.  But my opinion is not fact.  No one in NFL history has cracked the QB code for the draft.  No one.  If one of us here cracks it we'd be fools to spend our time here -- we should make millions working for an NFL team, write a book and go to town on the subject.

 

 

He's not saying there is no chance they take Maye.  As for him looking bad, he'd only look bad if they took McCarthy.

 

All he is saying is he spoken to a number of coaches without a stake in this draft at QB, some of whom he trusts their offensive minds.  They've all told him Daniels is the better QB.  Standig has sort of said a varaition of the same thing but i don't recall if he said all or most.

 

Can the coaches be wrong and people like you and I are right?  Sure.  But we don't know until we know when it unfolds.

 

All he is doing is saying that he has talked to numerous coaches and they all prefer Daniels.  As for you or me or whomever prefers Maye, not liking that.  That's fine.  But it has zero to do with mock drafter scuttlebutt.

Yeah, I take your points here SIP. My gut reaction was that he's doing us a disservice by even acknowledging the recent memes going around the coaching circles. But I guess I bit hard on that, because all he's saying is what THEY are saying. He's not saying it's fact. What bugs me is that so many intelligent football minds on this board have made such compelling cases for one or the other, that I am only reinforced by that. I am not questioning it or changing by the new data or viewpoints. I am digging in. 

So, if I agree with Keim about most views he has, shouldn't I be feeling less Maye and More Daniels? Well I'm not. So I don't know why he's shifted. when we both started at the same point. Don't know if I am clear on this point. Do you catch my drift?

[Skinsinparadise]

12 minutes ago, mudhog said:

Yeah, I take your points here SIP. My gut reaction was that he's doing us a disservice by even acknowledging the recent memes going around the coaching circles. But I guess I bit hard on that, because all he's saying is what THEY are saying. He's not saying it's fact. What bugs me is that so many intelligent football minds on this board have made such compelling cases for one or the other, that I am only reinforced by that. I am not questioning it or changing by the new data or viewpoints. I am digging in. 

So, if I agree with Keim about most views he has, shouldn't I be feeling less Maye and More Daniels? Well I'm not. So I don't know why he's shifted. when we both started at the same point. Don't know if I am clear on this point. Do you catch my drift?

 

I think I get your point.   Yeah Keim isn't saying who they should pick and who he thinks is better. 

 

He's shifted as to his guess not because of any personal preference that I can tell.  He basically said he started to talk to coaches he knows and trusts, especially those with no stakes in the game and know their way around offense.   And they all told him personally that they think Daniels is the better player.  And that caused the shift with him as to a guess if he had to make a guess.  And it might have influenced Keim as to whom he thinks is better but I don't know that for sure, Keim usually buries his own opinion.

 

But in his defense he makes zero claim that he knows what this team is thinking.  He is just pushed by others to take guesses and when he does -- his guess has shifted from Maye about a month or so ago to now guessing its Daniels.

 

But he doesn't come off that it can't be Maye.  He just says if he's forced to take a guess right now that's what it is.  The only tidbit that seems specific to what this team is thinking is he has said he doesn't think they take McCarthy at #2 but maybe if they traded down.  He doesn't say for sure they won't but he doesn't think so.

 

While all of that seems vague.  Keim making a point even vaguely often looks to be a bigger deal over time.  Not always.  But often.  Will see.

 

Standig ironically has made a similar point recently from his conversations around the league. 

 

Personally, I am still guessing it can go either way, Maye or Daniels.  i'd be surprised if its McCarthy at #2.  And to me the point is only relevant on one front.  For those here who want Maye (i am among them) we might want to psychologically brace that it MIGHT be Daniels -- not for sure but maybe. 

 

 

Edited April 5 by Skinsinparadise

[Llevron]

1 hour ago, Sacks 'n' Stuff said:

Maye is scheduled to visit the facility on the 26th.

What could it all mean!?!

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

I think one clue as to the direction theyre likely to go is that our GM told one of those two quarterbacks last year that he sucks.

[mac8887]

5 hours ago, @DCGoldPants said:

Been coming around to the mindset of doing what was done in 2012 with taking two QBs. Maybe not as early as Kirk in the 4th round. But day 3 if a Joe Milton or Michael Pratt are guys the scouts think are undervalued. Would absolutely prefer to have a rookie as your 3rd string instead of Jeff Driskel. ****, I might have a 4th QB on the PS. 

I was really hoping for a late round rookie qb as well. I like Milton’s athleticism and arm strength, but he needs a lot of fixing in just about ever other aspect of his game. I wouldn’t mind Jordan Travis if he falls to the 6th. I’d like Hartman as well but he had a bad combine.

 

Im wondering if either Penix or Nix fell to us in the second round if we’d take a swing. Those two have played a lot of football and I’d much rather have one of them to back up our first round qb than Fromm or driskel. I know this is definitely not going to happen and that teams don’t draft a qb 2nd round if they took one in the 1st, but it’s fun to think about.

[Command The 414]

1 hour ago, mudhog said:

Just curious, why DID we grab Mariota instead of another QB for back-up? His career stats are just atrocious.

I’ve been saying this from the jump that the last 2 QB additions in Mariota & Driskel are 💩 and for all these people who think we are drafting a guy at #2 to sit behind Mariota for a season… yeah and I’m going to win the lottery I’ve never played.  
 

If that was/is the plan then why trade Howell or even better why let Brissett walk when you could have had him for pretty much the same you paid Mariota and don’t give me the Mariota runs the offense that Kingsbury employs (Mariota runs no offense the last several seasons) They aren’t drafting a guy at #2 and sitting him for a entire season w/the QB’s we have on the roster… a few games maybe not a entire season.

[Dah-Dee]

27 minutes ago, Sacks 'n' Stuff said:

I think one clue as to the direction theyre likely to go is that our GM told one of those two quarterbacks last year that he sucks.

 

[mistertim]

33 minutes ago, mac8887 said:

I was really hoping for a late round rookie qb as well. I like Milton’s athleticism and arm strength, but he needs a lot of fixing in just about ever other aspect of his game. I wouldn’t mind Jordan Travis if he falls to the 6th. I’d like Hartman as well but he had a bad combine.

 

Im wondering if either Penix or Nix fell to us in the second round if we’d take a swing. Those two have played a lot of football and I’d much rather have one of them to back up our first round qb than Fromm or driskel. I know this is definitely not going to happen and that teams don’t draft a qb 2nd round if they took one in the 1st, but it’s fun to think about.

 

Drafting a QB in the 2nd round after picking one at #2 overall would not only be ludicrous from a locker room perspective, but ludicrous from a team building perspective. 

 

I wish I had more hands, so I could give this opinion 4 thumbs down.

[DogofWar1]

Okay so here's the strat.

 

Draft Joe Milton.

 

He chucks it top speed into the best defenders on the other team sending them to the hospital.

 

Then after like three 3-and-outs we just run over all the backups who are left for like 500 yards of offense on the ground.

[mistertim]

10 minutes ago, DogofWar1 said:

Okay so here's the strat.

 

Draft Joe Milton.

 

He chucks it top speed into the best defenders on the other team sending them to the hospital.

 

Then after like three 3-and-outs we just run over all the backups who are left for like 500 yards of offense on the ground.

 

I have a better prospect in mind.

 

[DogofWar1]

4 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

I have a better prospect in mind.

 

 

He didn't even knock him off the bicycle.