The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[The Consigliere]

42 minutes ago, DogofWar1 said:

The thing that stands out to me on this, aside from the very low Daniels %, is wow, Penix never got pushed off his spot.

 

Penix - 51 times

Caleb - 120 times

Nix - 66 times

McCarthy - 63 times

Maye - 125 times

Daniels - 90 times

 

Also helps to show how rough Williams and Maye had it.  Probably a much different conversation we're having if they got to stand on their spot an extra 50 times throughout the season.

Someone was talking about Penix Pressure to sack ratio on I think a player profiler podcast the other day and they were astounded by it, he's miles, miles, miles, miles better at making the right decision with the ball than Daniels, or really anyone else in the class, period. He throws it away, he does not take a lot of stupid sacks, EVER.. And he played for years in the Big-10 so it's not just a Pac-10 defenses suck argument. It's weird to say this because I want no part of Penix due to injury history and age, but honestly if we'd ended up at slot 7-10 instead of 2, I think I would have much preferred trading down for Penix rather than up for Daniels. Other than health issues, I think Penix has a higher floor than Daniels. Just a better decision maker. 

[sjinhan]

48 minutes ago, clskinsfan said:

I am not sure about that. Trubisky is lacking in the head. Something you cant coach. 

Reid was able to make it work with McNabb.  
 

Although it might been Tom Brady that carried Beliechek but I think Reid is on the other side… he can get best out of every QB or players he works with.

[CapsSkins]

Let's keep in mind frail old RG3's combine measurements were nevertheless 6' 2", 223 lbs.

 

Jayden is about 6' 4" and highly doubtful that he clocks in at 223. 

[The Consigliere]

12 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Phew, that's a lot of words.

I added another sentence, it ties it all together real good, after the first 57,834 didn't really 😁.

Edited March 16 by The Consigliere

[CommanderInTheRye]

4 hours ago, DogofWar1 said:

LSU Pro day on the 27th.

 

That will determine if I'm cool with Daniels or disappointed if we take him.

 

This is Daniels' chance to prove he can get to an NFL size frame or not, and maintain his dual threat capabilities.

 

 

I agree.

 

Two measurements are absolutely critical that day and two other measurements are  of interest, but they're not critical.

 

Critical measurements:

 

1. Daniels needs to weigh no less than 210 lbs. (215 or more is ideal) . No excuses allowed. If he doesn't consent to be weighed or if he weighs under 205 lbs he's off my board (if he's between 206 and 209 I'd have to think about it.)

 

2. Daniels also needs to prove that he can perform at that weight, by running his forty the sane day at 4.5 or less. Again no excuses allowed. If he doesn't run he's disqualified from consideration.

 

Important measurenents, but not critical:

 

1. Daniels would ideally be measured between 6' 3" and 6' 4" tall, but as long as he's 6' 2" or better, which he clearly is, no problem.

 

2. Daniels  hands would ideall have a span of 10" or more, but as long as they are at least 9", he's fine.

 

 

 

Edited March 16 by CommanderInTheRye

[DiscoBob]

2 minutes ago, CapsSkins said:

Let's keep in mind frail old RG3's combine measurements were nevertheless 6' 2", 223 lbs.

 

Jayden is about 6' 4" and highly doubtful that he clocks in at 223. 

 

No pressure, no diamonds

 

All in for week one

[zCommander]

2 hours ago, gooseneck said:

I haven't been on this topic for a while.  Is everything resolved yet?

 

Yes. As a collective group we have determined that we are selecting a QB at the #2 overall pick.

[Est.1974]

The notion of drafting a QB at #2 with a view to sit them for a year is ridiculous.

[Voice_of_Reason]

50 minutes ago, ThatNFLChick said:

Kurt Warner breaks down Maye (he seems to agree with Orlovsky, Simms, and many others that he needs to sit)

 

 

Orlovsky is an idiot.  Simms is a moron.  And this isn’t a new thing.  They’ve been idiots and morons forever.  
 

And Warner went on TV during the draft and said he has no idea how to judge the future of college players, that’s why he just watches NFL film.

 

I like Kurt.  But he probably watched the film the way I did, despising every minute of watching college offenses. 
 

While his analysis is better than the others he has openly admitted he has no idea how to project college QB play to NFL play.  

[Jumbo]

I don't mind the debate on whether Daniels and Mayes is a better choice. There is a well established list of reasonable pros and cons for preferring either guy or even just coming to an "either guy is fine with me" conclusion.

 

But I do note a frequent lack of context on terms of factoring in what we think this entire roster will be like and the schemes that will be applied on both sides of the ball. Much of that is still unknown to us. The f.o. knows a lot more on that but are also unsure of how a good portion of our roster will look even if they have their designs on schemes well in mind.

 

So a lot of the pros and cons on QB a v QB b are being argued out of context or at best in limited context. 

 

What I do get tired of, and it's just a personal preference thing, is highly repetitive "lobbying" (the "agenda" types or "college fanboys") for a strong preference between the two.

 

I especially tire of the endless stream of (frequently lame) media sourced punditry saying the same thing over and over that such "lobbying" features.

 

I'm still holding a marginal preference for Maye but as many folks here have stated, either one will be intriguing and exciting to me and I can be honestly hopeful with either guy.

 

I'm just as curious though about the look of the roster a few months from now and to hear more specifics about scheming in order to better inform me on  how the QB situation is going to look after we take one or the other.

 

My hunch is this f.o. is also leaning toward Maye, but a hunch is all it is. Both guys are valid potential studs imo. 

 

 

[Jags]

57 minutes ago, clskinsfan said:

I am not sure about that. Trubisky is lacking in the head. Something you cant coach. 

 

I forget who I heard say it, but it's probably been said a million times...  Things speed up at the NFL level, and that's the thing you absolutely cannot see until players reach the pro game.  They can be the best prospect in the world, but when the game speeds up, their body and especially their mind has to speed up, too.  So many infinitely talented QBs have failed because their brains sputter at that speed.  It's super rare to get a Mahomes where it seems like he sees the game in slow motion as it's unfolding.

 

That's one thing (and it's probably silly) when I saw Daniels and Maye get those 10-12 minute interviews with Florio at the combine.  Maye wasn't nearly as sharp, wasn't thinking on his feet (a lot of canned responses which is to be expected), not quite as humble, definitely not as mature.  To be clear, this was just by comparison.  Maye gave a good interview and seems like a great kid.  But Daniels was far more relaxed, mature, and candid.  Not a big deal at all, just an impression.  The only clear takeaway I had is that there IS an upside to Daniels being 2 years older.  The maturity is a big one, but if he's as humble as he seemed then he's probably coachable and capable (and humbly willing) to address his shortcomings at the next level.

 

55 minutes ago, Panninho said:

Trading away Howell sealed the deal

 

I agree.  Trading Howell makes it seem far less likely that we trade down.  Without Howell we'll need the rookie to start because no one wants to see Mariota actually play.  That can't be the plan.  Far more likely to get a possible starter at 2 or 3.  I'd trust the FO if they felt that strongly about moving back, but the deal would have to be great and the guy they like better work out.

 

52 minutes ago, DogofWar1 said:

The thing that stands out to me on this, aside from the very low Daniels %, is wow, Penix never got pushed off his spot.

 

Definitely.  Also, the results of those instances don't really matter to me all that much.  When plays break down like that, what your receivers do and how talented they are is just as important as the ability of the QB.  So the guys with lower percentages, fewer TDs and whatever?  That doesn't concern me.

 

29 minutes ago, clskinsfan said:

I actually think sitting a year would help him a lot myself. But that just isnt the way it works anymore with the second overall pick. If Maye is the pick he is gonna play. 

 

And I think that's okay if he's got the right people around him.  EB just showed us how not to do it.  He threw Howell to the wolves.  No running game, very few offensive adjustments to cater to his strengths and help mitigate his weaknesses, throwing it damn near 40 times a game...  He did Sam a huge disservice.  Howell isn't blameless, but he got a raw deal here with EB.

 

So if Kingsbury and the rest of the staff give him the help a young QB needs, I think either of these guys could have it in them to handle the pressure.

 

16 minutes ago, The Consigliere said:

The only quibble with Maye is mechanics

 

Yeah, and they're the same types of things Josh Allen ironed out early on in the NFL.  It takes humility though.  If he's humble enough to concede that he has issues, all the things he struggles with are fixable.  Allen did the Biometrics thing and did the work, bumped his accuracy up dramatically.  Maye did waffle a bit when asked at the combine if he had things to work on.  Didn't give terrible answers, but wasn't exactly what you'd want to hear either.  Daniels was very forthcoming, for what it's worth.  His body, body type, and reckless tendencies are the only things that concern me about him.  On top of being a phenomenal athlete, he's got all the right personality stuff, too.

[RWJ]

6 minutes ago, Jumbo said:

I'm just as curious though about the look of the roster a few months from now and to hear more specifics about scheming in order to better inform me on how the QB situation is going to look after we take one or the other.

I'm curious on this as well and it will be telling also applying to all the other draft picks and O players we have picked up.  It applies to the D too.  

[Skinsinparadise]

I wouldn't be upset at all if they took Daniels.  I like his potential.  From a pure exciting standpoint, I think he's by far the more exciting-sexier pick.  I prefer Maye but I'd get it if its Daniels.

 

I push back though on the Maye-Daniels argument when it turns to who is more raw.  I don't buy that its some sort of truism that its Maye who is more raw.  I am not arguing that some aren't making the case that he's more raw.  Clearly some do.  But there is definitely a group of draftniks who think the opposite.

 

I do agree that Maye has the mechanics that need to be cleaned up.  And heck he's 2 years younger than Daniels.  Some make the case that Daniels was very raw at 21.  So i get it from that perspective.

 

But as for being pro ready this season?

 

It brings me back to the Kirk-RG3 debate at that time.  Some would say Kirk, not RG3 was more pro ready because Kirk threw with anticipation and RG3 didn't.  Kirk would throw off platform.  Remember all the boots in his rookie debut?  Whereas RG3 would take off as opposed to throw much off platform.  Now the league wasn't ready for the RO and RG3 was able to skate by with this in 2012.  But when the league caught up and he lost some of his speed he wasn't the same.

 

I am not saying RG3 and Daniels are the same dude.  But they do have three things in common.  1.  Similar build.  2. Don't throw much with antcipation.  3. when flushed out of the pocket they run.

 

Also Daniels had everything working in his favor.  Very clean pockets.  Decent running game.  Rock star WRs.  Wouldn't surprise me that all three go top 15.  (Lacy in 2025).

 

In the NFL, Daniels isn't going to have all the time in the world to throw.  He's not going to be throwing to three superstar Wrs who are mismatched to the CBs.  He's going to have to make contested throws more.  He's going to have to throw with anticipation more.   He's going to have to throw off platform more.   He's going to have to protect himself better.

 

IMO he's the dude who has more to adjust to the NFL than Maye.  Maye makes throws on all three levels.  He makes throws off platform.  He makes contested throws.  He throws with anticipation.  Yes, his mechanics get out of whack at times off platform and when pressured.  He can work on that I presume.  But in short the list of things to work on is smaller than Daniels IMO.

 

I do get the argument that some make that screw all that stuff let Daniels run and the running makes up for all the things he needs to work on in year 1.  i don't know.  Maybe.  But for me to buy that Daniels is very pro ready from the jump that's the argument I need to believe to buy into that which is running can override it all.   But I don't think there is an easy answer to that.  That's why Peters gets paid the big bucks.

 

 

Edited March 16 by Skinsinparadise

[skinsfan66]

2 minutes ago, The Consigliere said:

Someone was talking about Penix Pressure to sack ratio on I think a player profiler podcast the other day and they were astounded by it, he's miles, miles, miles, miles better at making the right decision with the ball than Daniels, or really anyone else in the class, period. He throws it away, he does not take a lot of stupid sacks, EVER.. And he played for years in the Big-10 so it's not just a Pac-10 defenses suck argument. It's weird to say this because I want no part of Penix due to injury history and age, but honestly if we'd ended up at slot 7-10 instead of 2, I think I would have much preferred trading down for Penix rather than up for Daniels. Other than health issues, I think Penix has a higher floor than Daniels. Just a better decision maker. 

I was wondering about Penix too and those no.s and what I think about the chart, My opinion, he sucks at moving around to get a throw off so he does not. He is going to stay in there when every other QB as already put their feet to work. He got beat up by Mich. and it cost them the game. He should have threw the ball away instead of just chucking it down field and getting picked. Daniels takes off way to early and uses his feet as a weapon while not looking to throw. Caleb does the Mahomes act passing from any position behind the line and makes more time to throw. Maye is moved off because he has no choice and can throw on the run and run enough to extent the play. McCarthy drops back less but when moved he can make the throws while moving and he has some wheels too. 

[Jags]

5 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I don't buy that its some sort of truism that its Maye who is more raw.

 

Yeah, it's not clear to me which is more impressive:  Playing in God Mode in the SEC with all the tools around you in your 5th year, or still managing to put up very good stats in a new offense with shaky receivers and a weak offensive line (albeit versus lesser talent).

 

We learned a lot about Daniels' ability to put up a near-perfect season in a near-perfect situation, but I think what we learned about Maye in a year where he had to face a lot of adversity might be more telling, and more immediately relevant given the situation he'll likely land in at that NFL level.

[DiscoBob]

20 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I wouldn't be upset at all if they took Daniels.  I like his potential.  From a pure exciting standpoint, I think he's by far the more exciting-sexier pick.  I prefer Maye but I'd get it if its Daniels.

 

I push back though on the Maye-Daniels argument when it turns to who is more raw.  I don't buy that its some sort of truism that its Maye who is more raw.  I am not arguing that some aren't making the case that he's more raw.  Clearly some do.  But there is definitely a group of draftniks who think the opposite.

 

I do agree that Maye has the mechanics that need to be cleaned up.  And heck he's 2 years younger than Daniels.  Some make the case that Daniels was very raw at 21.  So i get it from that perspective.

 

But as for being pro ready this season?

 

It brings me back to the Kirk-RG3 debate at that time.  Some would say Kirk, not RG3 was more pro ready because Kirk threw with anticipation and RG3 didn't.  Kirk would throw off platform.  Remember all the boots in his rookie debut?  Whereas RG3 would take off as opposed to throw much off platform.  Now the league wasn't ready for the RO and RG3 was able to skate by with this in 2012.  But when the league caught up and he lost some of his speed he wasn't the same.

 

I am not saying RG3 and Daniels are the same dude.  But they do have three things in common.  1.  Similar build.  2. Don't throw much with antcipation.  3. when flushed out of the pocket they run.

 

Also Daniels had everything working in his favor.  Very clean pockets.  Decent running game.  Rock star WRs.  Wouldn't surprise me that all three go top 15.  (Lacy in 2025).

 

In the NFL, Daniels isn't going to have all the time in the world to throw.  He's not going to be throwing to three superstar Wrs who are mismatched to the CBs.  He's going to have to make contested throws more.  He's going to have to throw with anticipation more.   He's going to have to throw off platform more.   He's going to have to protect himself better.

 

IMO he's the dude who has more to adjust to the NFL than Maye.  Maye makes throws on all three levels.  He makes throws off platform.  He makes contested throws.  He throws with anticipation.  Yes, his mechanics get out of whack at times off platform and when pressured.  He can work on that I presume.  But in short the list of things to work on is smaller than Daniels IMO.

 

I do get the argument that some make that screw all that stuff let Daniels run and the running makes up for all the things he needs to work on in year 1.  i don't know.  Maybe.  But for me to buy that Daniels is very pro ready from the jump that's the argument I need to believe to buy into that which is running can override it all.   But I don't think there is an easy answer to that.  That's why Peters gets paid the big bucks.

 

 

 

The most common refrain from people watching Maye is that he makes (and attempts) the most number of NFL throws.

 

To me, assuming the player has an NFL arm, and isn't a statue.... this has to be the most important trait for projecting a player.  Can you adapt to the NFL structure, and throw into NFL windows. This is the piece where most players with NFL athleticism fall flat.

 

When there is so much riding on a pick, and you can't afford to whiff... 

 

 

 

Edited March 16 by DiscoBob

[Skinsinparadise]

15 minutes ago, Jags said:

 

Yeah, it's not clear to me which is more impressive:  Playing in God Mode in the SEC with all the tools around you in your 5th year, or still managing to put up very good stats in a new offense with shaky receivers and a weak offensive line (albeit versus lesser talent).

 

We learned a lot about Daniels' ability to put up a near-perfect season in a near-perfect situation, but I think what we learned about Maye in a year where he had to face a lot of adversity might be more telling, and more immediately relevant given the situation he'll likely land in at that NFL level.

 

My main concern with Daniels isn't his really good protection and great receivers in a vacuum -- its that it helped him work around not doing two things you got to do a lot in the NFL -- make tight window throws and throw with anticipation.

 

It much easier to be accurate when you don't have to thread the needle and put the ball to a spot before the receiver gets there. I was listening to a draftnik the other day tout how few picks Daniels makes.  Well, yeah, if you wait for your guy to be open versus throw with anticipation much and don't make too many contested throws -- your picks should be down.  If we recall RG3 didn't throw picks much. 

 

Then you add the idea that he takes off when flushed out of the pocket at twice the rate of any even running type Qbs in the NFL.  And he had a very low number of 2nd level -- intermediate throws which are NFL staples.

 

I pushed Daniels on this thread months ago and am not off of the bandwagon.  But IMHO he has more question marks than Maye.   Coming from one of the bigger fans of mobile QBs on the board -- I tend to love dudes who can run.  I do appreciate what he can do on that front and big time so.  He's a fun watch.

 

And i don't reject the idea that Daniels' running ability might help him supersede all of these issues.  It's possible.  And he can work on them just like Maye can work on his mechanics.  But IMO Maye is the easier NFL projection because he makes 2nd level throws.  He does throw with anticipation.  He does throw off platform.  He does make contested throws.   He needs to clean some of that up but its part of his arsenal now versus something he has to build.  Daniels IMO on the other hand has to build it.  

Edited March 16 by Skinsinparadise

[clskinsfan]

34 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

But for me to buy that Daniels is very pro ready from the jump

I just think he is because he played in a pro style offense. Although they literally ignored half of the field in that offense. 

 

Edit: And Maye also has experience on Kliff's offense as well. Terminology and such. So maybe for US and us alone Maye would be more ready?

Edited March 16 by clskinsfan

[redskinss]

3 hours ago, Conn said:

A late 1st, future 1st, and multiple years away 2nd is not nearly enough value to give away your choice of QB’s and go all the way to 5.

And that doesn't even take into consideration that we'd be giving up our very early second this year and our mid 3rd this year which makes this trade scenario even more ridiculous. 

 

[Koolblue13]

Bayou Bob is pro ready in the way that the USFL is technically a pro league.

[Koolblue13]

[Skinsinparadise]

40 minutes ago, clskinsfan said:

I just think he is because he played in a pro style offense. Although they literally ignored half of the field in that offense. 

 

Daniels is a great runner.  Throws a nice deep ball, great fade.  OK with touch on the first level.

 

If that's who they draft, I'd want to add another deep threat.  It would feel very 2012.  Daniels similar albiet more slight build than RG3 -- doesn't have his arm strength but can throw deep.  

 

I think his accuracy is decent so hopefully they can work on throwing more with anticipation and working that 2nd level.

 

But feels like if its Maye IMO -- we want a killer slot WR and TE who can threaten the middle -- as to WRs -- McConkey, Pearsall, R. Wilson, Coleman.  If its Daniels:  Legette, Franklin, Polk

Edited March 16 by Skinsinparadise

[CommanderInTheRye]

I just want the next 40 days to pass as quickly as time did in Interstellar when they landed on that planet, near the black hole, with the skyscraper sized waves.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

Don't know about who they prefer but Maye is definitiely the in the middle guy

[CommanderInTheRye]

18 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

Don't know about who they prefer but Maye is definitiely the in the middle guy

 

 

As a true undecided (who is currently slightly leaning towards Jayden) this is the best new argument I've read for preferring Maye over Daniels.

 

The one thing even his most adamant critics admit is that Maye is a fearless maestro savant on throws over the middle.

 

Daniels, either because his offense doesn’t require it, or because he lacks the ability to do it well, typically avoids throws inside the hash lines.

 

If OCKK intends to target the middle with his new offense there's not a better q.b. in the draft he could select.

 

I like it.

 

This moves the needle significantly towards Maye for me.

 

 

 

 

Edited March 16 by CommanderInTheRye