The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Skinsinparadise]

17 minutes ago, KDawg said:

JJ McCarthy is a really, really good athlete.

 

He’s probably going to run a 4.6 and he’s really agile. I suggest watching more of him. 

 

I wouldn't be surprised if he runs in the 4.5's.  To me his untapped potential is the combination of his ability to throw off platform and his wheels.  I disagree with those who say Daniels is a straight line runner.  IMO Daniels is elusive.  I think its McCarthy who is more of a straight line runner.   But it wouldn't shock me if McCarthy and Daniels speed isn't that different.

Edited February 18 by Skinsinparadise

[KDawg]

Just now, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I wouldn't be surprised if he runs in the 4.5's.  To me his untapped potential is the combination of his ability to throw off platform and his wheels.  I disagree with those who say Daniels is a straight line runner.  IMO Daniels is elusive.  I think its McCarthy who is more of a straight line runner.   But it wouldn't shock me if McCarthy and Daniels speed isn't that different.

I don’t think either are straight line guys. I think that conversation is very hyperbolic. It usually happens when someone has a QB they like and they want to make up a reason to hate a dude. 
 

I’m with you. Daniels isn’t straight line. 

[clskinsfan]

3 minutes ago, ThatNFLChick said:

If we are going by analytics McCarthy is right up there but analytics without context is meaningless.

 

 

 

 

 

My comment on JJ's favorability with analytics has a lot to do with his mid range passing. It is a trait that has value at the next level. But it is not a guarantee of anything either. Josh Allen and Herbert were pretty bad in that category in college. 

[HTTRDynasty]

3 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Why does he need a crutch? In fact, why do any of them?

Because it is notoriously difficult to win from the pocket as an NFL QB unless you sit for a while or have a “special” crutch to lean on.  Unless they have elite post-snap processing ability similar to a Burrow or Stroud as a prospect, they’re going to need time to develop into a QB who can consistently win from the pocket at the next level. 

[samy316]

I’ll add one more point here, since I’m not in this thread that often, and I don’t want to clog up the thread with too many JJ McCarthy takes:  This is the draft to get our franchise QB.  If you look at the NFL landscape, ALL of the talented franchise QB’s reside in the AFC at the moment.  There is NO TRUE franchise QB in the NFC at the moment. Purdy, Goff, Dak & even Hurts aren’t at the franchise QB level that Mahomes, Allen, Burrow, Herbert, Jackson, Stroud or Lawrence are. There’s a big, gaping hole at franchise QB in the NFC.  The first team that gets that guy in the NFC, could run that conference for the next 5-10 years.  We need to make sure that WE get that guy soon.  

San Francisco, will not be the same team next season, as their roster gets older and more expensive, Dallas is screwed going forward if they pay Dak, Philly is in turmoil and getting older, and Detroit has a really good team, but they don’t have an elite QB.  This is the time to get that franchise QB, and run the NFC.  The opening is right there.

Edited February 18 by samy316

[KDawg]

5 minutes ago, clskinsfan said:

My comment on JJ's favorability with analytics has a lot to do with his mid range passing. It is a trait that has value at the next level. But it is not a guarantee of anything either. Josh Allen and Herbert were pretty bad in that category in college. 

I think there is plenty of context with McCarthy, too. 
 

I don’t know. This whole thread seems like pandering for people’s guys. I love what you’ve brought the last few pages. You aren’t a McCarthy guy at all but you’ve posted some really solid material going against your thought… but then you state why you still believe what you believe. I think that’s healthy as hell and good for the board.

 

I am not an anyone guy. Truth is I don’t love any of these guys. I like Rattler as a mid round type, but not as a first round guy. I like McCarthy, but I’m not sure how much. I like Maye, but see a lot of Howell in the way he runs into sacks… which leads me to “we have Howell already” which leads me to “ya but not 4.6 6-4 230 Howell”.

 

I see a lot of wow with Williams but the red flags are sticking out of every one of his orifices. 
 

I like Daniels but I think he plays recklessly at times and whether it’s deemed to be a quality critique or not, I don’t particularly care. That scares me. But his upside is through the roof.
 

I want us to get the best value and the best guy to be our quarterback. I have no idea who that is right now. 

2 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

Because it is notoriously difficult to win from the pocket as an NFL QB unless you sit for a while or have a “special” crutch to lean on.  Unless they have elite post-snap processing ability similar to a Burrow or Stroud as a prospect, they’re going to need time to develop into a QB who can consistently win from the pocket at the next level. 

He’s not a pocket guy, though.

Edited February 18 by KDawg

[Skinsinparadise]

7 minutes ago, KDawg said:

I don’t think either are straight line guys. I think that conversation is very hyperbolic. It usually happens when someone has a QB they like and they want to make up a reason to hate a dude. 
 

I’m with you. Daniels isn’t straight line. 

 

The first game I've watched of a QB in this class was McCarthy against Ohio State from 2022.  I was high on that performance, got a little pushback (not from you) about it.  That game put a heavy burden on him to throw the ball, played out of the shotgun through most of that game.  He played well IMO.

 

As you mentioned Michigan's offense was a heavy run game-ball control one that didn't enable him to put up big numbers.  And I get he doesn't come off exciting as a player or a personality -- but I think that can change in the pros because his wheels are legit.   

 

As I mentioned in another post, I think he fits well to a spread offense even though he didn't play in one and his abiity to make plays off platform and run makes his skills NFL friendly.  Young too. just turned 21. so he likely keeps growing.

 

 

 

 

Edited February 18 by Skinsinparadise

[HTTRDynasty]

Just now, KDawg said:

 

He’s not a pocket guy, though.

And that’s a problem. His other traits aren’t special enough to win consistently at the next level without being a pocket guy. 

[KDawg]

Just now, HTTRDynasty said:

And that’s a problem. His other traits aren’t special enough to win consistently at the next level without being a pocket guy. 

I think you are underrating his other traits significantly based on the offense he was in.

 

Time will tell.

[clskinsfan]

4 minutes ago, KDawg said:

I am not an anyone guy.

Williams is the only one I am all in on. His arm talent and pocket awareness are next level elite imo. But is he a head case?

 

I like Maye as a piece of clay for the right coaches. Canon arms and prototypical size guys are rare. 

 

I love Daniels running ability. But have serious concerns about him having enough arm to make all of the throws at the next level. 

 

JJ to me shows flashes of brilliance followed by some real head scratchers. The opening play INT against Bama that got called back comes to mind. 

 

Nix could be lethal in a west coast offense. But I dont like him in anything else. 

 

As you say all of these guys have their warts. And all of them have something good they bring to the table. I am glad I am not the one making the decision. But that is why guys like Peters get paid the big bucks. In the end I just want to win another damn Super Bowl. Whichever one of these guys the staff thinks they can do that with is fine by me. I will be here every Sunday ****ing about them in the gameday thread.

[FlyBigBeard]

2 minutes ago, clskinsfan said:

Williams is the only one I am all in on. His arm talent and pocket awareness are next level elite imo. But is he a head case?

 

I like Maye as a piece of clay for the right coaches. Canon arms and prototypical size guys are rare. 

 

I love Daniels running ability. But have serious concerns about him having enough arm to make all of the throws at the next level. 

 

JJ to me shows flashes of brilliance followed by some real head scratchers. The opening play INT against Bama that got called back comes to mind. 

 

Nix could be lethal in a west coast offense. But I dont like him in anything else. 

 

As you say all of these guys have their warts. And all of them have something good they bring to the table. I am glad I am not the one making the decision. But that is why guys like Peters get paid the big bucks. In the end I just want to win another damn Super Bowl. Whichever one of these guys the staff thinks they can do that with is fine by me. I will be here every Sunday ****ing about them in the gameday thread.

Williams is definitely a head case primadonna. Pass on him. 

 

Maye is everything Williams is but a little less of a runner/scrambler probably do to his size. And is definitely not a head case or primadonna. Take him at #2 for sure. 

 

Daniels is electric, seems to be a good dude. But I have questions on his durability at the next level. Lamar is pulling it off but I'm getting flashbacks of RG3 when I think of Daniels 😳😬😮‍💨. So pass on him at #2 but definitely a trade down guy (but you probably miss out on him trading down)

 

JJ is a lesser version of Williams/Maye overall but is a great runner/scrambler similar to Williams. With a nice arm. He would be my target trade down guy to go get, I see a lot of good qualities in his game. And you get to capitalize on all the draft capital that you get from trading out of #2 

 

But overall you take Maye at #2 

 

[skinzplay]

If the Bears make another move at 1 and Williams is there at 2, I don't think we're drafting him. Just my opinion.

[MartinC]

1 hour ago, HTTRDynasty said:

I agree with your questions.  I have similar ones.  But in regards to the first part of your response, I was specifically referring to him growing as “a consistent NFL QB”, not as just a passer. What I mean by that is even if a QB is a great “passer” in college, most QBs still need time to develop their pre- and post-snap processing at the NFL level, which as you know is light years more advanced than at the college level. They also need to learn more advanced blitz schemes, how to set protections, etc. 

 

Players like Daniels can rely on their legs as they figure this all out.  And although McCarthy is fairly athletic, he’s not athletic enough to lean on his legs as he makes the transition.  Players like Williams and Maye can rely on their special off-platform ability as a crutch.   I could see McCarthy needing to sit for at least a year wherever he ends up given he doesn’t have any truly “special” traits to lean on as he makes the transition, at least IMO.  And then you have to wonder about the upside even after letting him sit and learn for a year. 

McCarthy has wheels. He want asked to - or needed - to use his mobility much. But he can extend plays and run it as well.

 

Personally I just don’t think he has anything physically as thrower that is special. I’m not sold that if he had to he could put an NFL offense on his back and beat teams with his arm. 

8 minutes ago, skinzplay said:

If the Bears make another move at 1 and Williams is there at 2, I don't think we're drafting him. Just my opinion.

I think we would sprint to the podium. But I doubt we find out because it’s almost a lock the Bears take him.

[Rolo Tomasie]

7 minutes ago, skinzplay said:

If the Bears make another move at 1 and Williams is there at 2, I don't think we're drafting him. Just my opinion.

Well, not sure if I agree with this, but I am sure that if any NFL team will have good knowledge of Caleb's personality and tendencies, it's us.

[Koolblue13]

What if JJ had Thomas and Nabers and no Corum? I bet that offense runs a lot different.

[88Comrade2000]

9 minutes ago, skinzplay said:

If the Bears make another move at 1 and Williams is there at 2, I don't think we're drafting him. Just my opinion.

If he’s available at #2 and we don’t draft him, then he might start dropping.

 

That would be very telling that the team with the OC who worked with him last year, doesn’t draft him.

 

Unless New England loved him, he would then drop to one of the other qb needy teams. Or if he’s available after 4, then it would be easier for other qb needy teams to move up to 5 or later and get him,

[bird_1972]

1 hour ago, clskinsfan said:

There are more than just Mahomes in that category imo. Burrow, Jackson, Allen and Stroud all come to mind.

 

Yeah, that was my point. I wasn't suggesting it was only Mahomes but I already knew he was a no-brainer in that category. I just was curious who else people thought met that threshold who are currently in the league.

[MartinC]

1 minute ago, 88Comrade2000 said:

If he’s available at #2 and we don’t draft him, then he might start dropping.

 

That would be very telling that the team with the OC who worked with him last year, doesn’t draft him.

 

Unless New England loved him, he would then drop to one of the other qb needy teams. Or if he’s available after 4, then it would be easier for other qb needy teams to move up to 5 or later and get him,

Are we really at a stage off the offseason when we are debating if Williams drops out of the top 5?

[88Comrade2000]

11 minutes ago, MartinC said:

Are we really at a stage off the offseason when we are debating if Williams drops out of the top 5?

It’s the offseason. It’s going to be slow unless something comes out of the combine. Saw a player wows and his stock rises or the opposite happens, he leaves a negative impression and his stock declines.

 

Until we get into free agency, going to be slow.

[MartinC]

6 minutes ago, 88Comrade2000 said:

It’s the offseason. It’s going to be slow unless something comes out of the combine. Saw a player wows and his stock rises or the opposite happens, he leaves a negative impression and his stock declines.

 

Until we get into free agency, going to be slow.

Not THAT slow 🙂

[ThatNFLChick]

JJ McCarthy had 7 games this season where he threw for less than 200 yards and only 1 game where he threw for over 300. Its just not enough to make me feel comfortable taking him without getting a significant haul in a trade down.

 

Also McCarthy only rushed for 150 yards on the season (in 2022 he rushed for 250) so I think the assumption he will be any type of substantial running threat in the NFL is far too optimistic. In 2 seasons the most rushing yards he ever had in a game was 57 yards. 

Edited February 18 by ThatNFLChick

[CommanderInTheRye]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

The first game I've watched of a QB in this class was McCarthy against Ohio State from 2022.  I was high on that performance, got a little pushback (not from you) about it.  That game put a heavy burden on him to throw the ball, played out of the shotgun through most of that game.  He played well IMO.

 

As you mentioned Michigan's offense was a heavy run game-ball control one that didn't enable him to put up big numbers.  And I get he doesn't come off exciting as a player or a personality -- but I think that can change in the pros because his wheels are legit.   

 

As I mentioned in another post, I think he fits well to a spread offense even though he didn't play in one and his abiity to make plays off platform and run makes his skills NFL friendly.  Young too. just turned 21. so he likely keeps growing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Heaven forgive me for being such a naive dreamer, who sees this admitedly grim world through rose colored glasses far too often--- but damnit plays like that really make me WANT to believe.

 

This young McCarthy kid has got something.

 

Not sure whether it's the proverbial "it" factor or a bad case of "mono" but whoever drafts him will surely find out.

 

 

Edited February 18 by CommanderInTheRye

[Koolblue13]

1 minute ago, CommanderInTheRye said:

 

 

Heaven forgive me for being such a naive dreamer, who sees this admitedly grim world through rose colored glasses far too often--- but damnit plays like that really make me WANT to believe.

 

This young McCarthy kid has got something.

 

No sure whether it's the proverbial "it" factor or a bad case of "mono" but whoever drafts him will find out.

How high are you today?

[CommanderInTheRye]

3 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

How high are you today?

 

 

Not as high as I'm gonna be! 😝

[FrFan]

1 hour ago, CommanderInTheRye said:

 

 

Not as high as I'm gonna be! 😝

 

https://www.pff.com/news/draft-post-super-bowl-2024-nfl-mock-draft-five-quarterbacks-first-round

 

• Commanders receive: A 2024 first-round pick (No. 12), a 2025 first-round pick, a 2025 second-round pick and a 2026 first-round pick.
• Broncos receive: A 2024 first-round pick (No. 2).
• Commanders receive: A 2024 first-round pick (No. 10), a 2024 third-round pick (No. 73)
• Jets receive: A 2024 first-round pick (No. 12), a 2024 second-round pick (No. 40)

 

 

Edited February 18 by FrFan