The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

8 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

 

They weren't very good last (as shown in the tweet).  Neither were in the top 70 last year either.

 

 

I have to think not being able to threaten the deep part of the field plays a role in this.

[PeterMP]

22 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I have to think not being able to threaten the deep part of the field plays a role in this.

 

If you look at McLaurin avg. separation the last 3 years, he's been 2.5-2.6 which is ok, but it isn't elite.  I don't know how much that is due to the other issues the offense has, but it is now a multiple year thing.  His best value is 2.8 in his 2nd year.

54 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Im more talking about the people who keep saying there are elite prospects in this class and next years class won’t be good. Where are they getting this info? 
 

That is a media driven narrative 100%. This class has potential to be good, for sure, but it’s not the generational crazy talent level class people have thought. And how do we have any idea what next year’s class is? 
 

As far as your take, Daniels build is a major question… though he’s not small. He’s still 205… but he’s a lanky 205. My concerns with him are entirely based on how much time he has in the pocket. He could take a nap in the pocket… I do like him. Just not top 10 like… and I think that’s where he’s going.

 

Williams is an elite athlete for the position and has at least a very good arm.  Maye has the elite stature/size with at least a very good arm.

 

That makes for potentially 2 elite players at the top of the draft, which then suggest at least a very good QB draft.

 

And it isn't like we have no idea who will come out next year.

 

I don't watch a ton of college football and from the little I have seen of them, they both have issues, so I'm not going to argue they will be elite at the NFL level.  But just in terms having something that tends to important to making an elite NFL QB, they both have something and certainly a good enough arm to be elite.

 

**EDIT**
Though I do think the media also likes to drive an "elite" QB narrative.  I suspect it helps with the draft ratings.  Somebody brought up Jimmy Clausen earlier in the draft.  While he fell in the draft, I believe the media pushed him as potential top line QB.

 

But Williams and Maye both have something that Clausen never had and QBs that routinely go 3-10 don't have.

Edited December 6, 2023 by PeterMP

[Warhead36]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

 

I recall Sheehan and Loverro interviewing Baylor's coach about RG3, and they asked him if Rg3 was liked in the locker room and his response was well does it matter if he was liked?  Sheehan took that as no, that he wasn't liked.  That was the first red flag I recall but at the time I ignored it.

Roethlisberger was hated too. If you win and play great nobody cares. 

[zCommander]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

For the people here that are convinced that Sam Howell is elite and either you see him as elite or you are out on him, no middle ground exists -- I am not playing along.  It's OK to think Sam's upside is good to very good without seeing him as elite.

 

Sam is not elite. It is too early to define that right now. But he can be with a decent OL and a productive D. He has already proven what he can do with less. Just want to see what he can do with more. My whole thing about Josh Allen was that Allen didn't start becoming true elite until his third year (because of a lot better OL and D play). It does take a QB at least 2-3 years to get to that mark. 

 

So I understand why some want the new staff to start with a QB so they can have the full 5 years to work with but with Sam he will need a bigger payday after his 4th year here. But if Sam is only 1 year away from going to that potential status then you have to look at that very hard. I know I would. The worst thing that can happen is you trade him for a higher pick to another team after year 4 if he is not the guy. I know his ceiling is higher than Kirk though, and I liked Kirk a lot until I didn't. Kirk was the last QB I wanted to be our franchise QB.

 

Also, the new GM shouldn't stop at looking for a QB in every draft to bring up when and if Sam is no longer on the team or is not going to work out. But, given the right formula Sam can be the face of the franchise and I truly believe that. But I will not be happy if they go with a QB with their 1st pick this year though. 

 

Sam should have been the starter last year but stupid Ron wanted Wentz and not spend the money on the OL instead. When this thread was started back in 2021 I said build the OL first and then drop a QB from the draft. I would have been a kick ass GM with a foresight, sorry @Sacks 'n' Stuff lol

 

There is also another factor one has to consider is that the new HC might be here longer than 5 years, if he is a younger coach like Tomlin was (16 years with the Steelers so far). I know Harris doesn't want to field a middle of the pack team but if you draft a rookie in 2024 and start him over Sam that is exactly what you are going to get for the first two-three years. 

 

I found this on one website. How many checkboxes does Howell already has on this list?

12 Qualities of Top-level NFL Quarterbacks

The qualities of an elite NFL quarterback include:

1. Combination of superior arm strength and pinpoint accuracy
2. Sixth sense connection with receivers, ability to place the ball where only the receiver can get it
3. Learns the offensive system and runs it with unfettered poise
4. Studies film; able to read opponent's defensive schemes and anticipate their likely moves
5. Able to stay calm in the midst of pressure and make wise decisions about how best to distribute the ball
6. Ability to quickly scan the entire field to find the most open receiver
7. Mastery of the 2-minute offense
8. Demonstrates leadership on the field; motivates and makes other players better
9. Openly shares his appreciation and all success with the other members on the team
10. The ability to lead a team back to victory in the fourth quarter
11. Rises to the occasion in all games; even more so in big games
12. Wins championships!

 

[FootballZombie]

@Skinsinparadise

 

When are you just gonna give up and include your "I'm one of Sam's biggest fans, just saying its OK to question" disclaimer in a signature?

 

Prolly' save you a couple of hours a day.

 

 

1 hour ago, Warhead36 said:

Roethlisberger was hated too. If you win and play great nobody cares. 

 

Yup.

 

Griff could do no wrong in 2012. Pretty sure they legit called him "Black Jesus" in the locker room.

Wentz was the chosen on early in his career when the dubs were rolling in too.

Broncos couldn't get enough of Wilson when they brought him in, after a poor season all we got was info about how separated he was w/ his own personal staff. Now he's ballin and they luv him again.

 

When those wins dry up, so does the luv.

As w/ everything, if u ball, nobody cares what u do.

You can absolutely be an Aaron Rodgers level douche and psychopath... just be Aaron Rodgers on the field too.

[dunfer]

4 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

His story might have been different if it weren't for the injury and his stubborn personality.  Lesson there is know the intangibles of the QB.

 

I recall Sheehan and Loverro interviewing Baylor's coach about RG3, and they asked him if Rg3 was liked in the locker room and his response was well does it matter if he was liked?  Sheehan took that as no, that he wasn't liked.  That was the first red flag I recall but at the time I ignored it.

When i call rob our greatest mistake its referring to investing so much future capital in a single pick. You cant do that because as everyone says its a roll of the dice. If we were sitting at pick 2 back then and took him it wouldnt have set us back like it did.

Moral of the story is dont break the bank to move up in the draft because nobody is a slam dunk....even the slam dunk in front of Robert decided to quit playing

[method man]

3 hours ago, Llevron said:

 

That’s surprising honestly. I thought both of those guys were good because of their route running not in spite of it. 

 

Something that doesn't get talked about is that Jahan's 3 cone at the combine was 14th percentile, which is terrible. Yes he runs great routes but I question his quickness

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

40 minutes ago, dunfer said:

even the slam dunk in front of Robert decided to quit playing

Andrew Luck was a stallion though.

 

I’d be ok with us drafting QB this offseason if it was him.

Edited December 6, 2023 by Sacks 'n' Stuff

[dunfer]

With a Howell on a rookie deal showing promise would any reasonable gm come in and pick a qb in the top 5? I mean you cant just let that top 5 qb sit on the bench forever and you dont pick a qb top 5 to have a competition.

A top 5 qb pick with Sam after his first rookie year performance seems like an early sword to die on for an incoming gm.

 

I have no idea whats best or what they do but I predict we go safe and grab a Tackle

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

31 minutes ago, method man said:

 

Something that doesn't get talked about is that Jahan's 3 cone at the combine was 14th percentile, which is terrible. Yes he runs great routes but I question his quickness

 

Ugh, also helps explain why he struggles against press. He and KJ Henry have awful 3 cones for their position. I would say the Front Office just completely disregards 3 cone, yet they drafted St. Juste because of his elite 3 cone. Jahan's 10 yard split is good...but not when you consider his height/weight for a 1st rounder.

[CapsSkins]

I'm going to stop disclaiming/caveating "whatever the GM/HC want to do" because I feel like pretty much everyone is aligned on that.

 

With that in mind, I'd lean towards committing to Howell and drafting weapons and OL for him vs. going for a QB at 4 like Daniels or Maye. Take the bird in hand over however many in the bush and get some elite players at other positions. Worst case scenario once we've built up the roster in a few years, if we don't feel like Howell is the guy we can use some capital to trade up into the top 10 or top 5 to get a guy. Franchise QBs are usually 1st rounders but not necessarily 1OA or 2OA. 

[KDawg]

8 hours ago, PeterMP said:

 

If you look at McLaurin avg. separation the last 3 years, he's been 2.5-2.6 which is ok, but it isn't elite.  I don't know how much that is due to the other issues the offense has, but it is now a multiple year thing.  His best value is 2.8 in his 2nd year.

 

Williams is an elite athlete for the position and has at least a very good arm.  Maye has the elite stature/size with at least a very good arm.

 

That makes for potentially 2 elite players at the top of the draft, which then suggest at least a very good QB draft.

 

And it isn't like we have no idea who will come out next year.

 

I don't watch a ton of college football and from the little I have seen of them, they both have issues, so I'm not going to argue they will be elite at the NFL level.  But just in terms having something that tends to important to making an elite NFL QB, they both have something and certainly a good enough arm to be elite.

 

**EDIT**
Though I do think the media also likes to drive an "elite" QB narrative.  I suspect it helps with the draft ratings.  Somebody brought up Jimmy Clausen earlier in the draft.  While he fell in the draft, I believe the media pushed him as potential top line QB.

 

But Williams and Maye both have something that Clausen never had and QBs that routinely go 3-10 don't have.

Williams certainly has + athlete traits and a strong arm. Maye has + size, a strong arm and + athlete traits. I agree there.

 

But what, on film, makes them pop? This is what I’m trying to get from people. What stuff do they do that makes them stand out as elite? We know traits don’t define a prospect. They help, though, to your point.

 

I want to add that I’m not saying they aren’t good prospects… I’m trying to get people to think for themselves a bit on this topic rather than parrot a media narrative.

 

I’m willing to bet a good portion of our fanbase isn’t aware that Caleb Williams isn’t 6-4. He’s 6-1 215. Howell, who gets some flack for his height, is 6-1 220. Just one example I am trying to get across.

[DazedSkinsfan]

I might be completely wrong and will gladly admit it if so,  but there is something that screams major bust with Caleb Williams. It has nothing to do with talent or ability either,  and I firmly believe he has all the particular traits to be elite.  I just can't put my finger on it but I'm not 100% confident he's going to turn out to be the next great qb like everyones saying.  

[Skinsinparadise]

9 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

Roethlisberger was hated too. If you win and play great nobody cares. 

 

Agree, but that was one variable that arguably did him in, that is his personality

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, KDawg said:

Williams certainly has + athlete traits and a strong arm. Maye has + size, a strong arm and + athlete traits. I agree there.

 

But what, on film, makes them pop? This is what I’m trying to get from people. What stuff do they do that makes them stand out as elite? We know traits don’t define a prospect. They help, though, to your point.

 

I want to add that I’m not saying they aren’t good prospects… I’m trying to get people to think for themselves a bit on this topic rather than parrot a media narrative.

 

I’m willing to bet a good portion of our fanbase isn’t aware that Caleb Williams isn’t 6-4. He’s 6-1 215. Howell, who gets some flack for his height, is 6-1 220. Just one example I am trying to get across.

 

I am not really even studying either dude but watched some of their players and by extension couldn't help watch either QB some and commented on the draft thread.  I won't dive deep into either because both are unrealstic gets for us.

 

So superficially -- Maye looks the prototype QB with his height, it shocked me how good he runs, I thought he was just a prototype pocket passer but he's very mobile and faster than I expected, good mobility, was accurate on all three levels with a strong arm.   But his dexterity in the pocket and movement took me by surprise. 

 

Williams was sick with off platform throws, and had sick arm talent just in general I mentioned a play on the draft thread where he had to grab a ball that was snapped over his head by the center he grabs it while being chased by a defender, throws the ball off his backfoot right before being clubbered which was impressive enough but actually nailed a 30 yard or so pass perfectly to his WR, that was one of the most wow throws I've seen. 

 

I actually didn't want to like Maye and Caleb.  I love to be contrarian versus the mock drafters but I couldn't help seeing special with both.  I didn't dive in so maybe it was just wild coincidence that I saw both QBs at their best but I was uber impressed and I didn't expect to be.  With Ewers who got some preseason hype, I wasn't impressed when I watched him, he strikes me a bit erratic with his accuracy and special traits don't jump at me.   So when some tout wait to 2025 and then mention his name, I yawn.   

 

 

7 hours ago, dunfer said:

When i call rob our greatest mistake its referring to investing so much future capital in a single pick. You cant do that because as everyone says its a roll of the dice. If we were sitting at pick 2 back then and took him it wouldnt have set us back like it did.

Moral of the story is dont break the bank to move up in the draft because nobody is a slam dunk....even the slam dunk in front of Robert decided to quit playing

 

I am not a trade the farm guy for a QB guy either especially in the context of already having Howell.  Hence I kept the conversation focused on Daniels.  

 

I also don't think teams are trading away the pick regardless, I find the whole conversation fantasy.

Edited December 6, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

8 hours ago, FootballZombie said:

@Skinsinparadise

 

When are you just gonna give up and include your "I'm one of Sam's biggest fans, just saying its OK to question" disclaimer in a signature?

 

Prolly' save you a couple of hours a day.

 

 

lol, I've had to repeat it too much. . Maybe I should!

 

I am just surprised that am getting hit some for the comment of keeping my mind open on this.   Not even saying pull the trigger but I want the GM to consider everything.

 

I've earned my Sam Howell fan card stripes.  I've pushed him from the jump. Took on some of his critics here during the season. 

 

You got some who have watched Howell who think he at his peak in Minchew, Jay has said that a couple of times.  I see Howell hitting that Carr (when he was good)-Kirk, that 2nd tier level.  I am not sure about elite.   

 

But I want the GM to decide.  Judging by what people have said who cover the team they expect the new GM to consider a QB, it will likely be on the menu of consideration but it doesn't mean they will do it.   Consider.  So I don't think I am crazy.  And it doesn't mean that I've turned from a Howell fan to one of the naysayers.    But will see what happens.  The GM obviously is going to be much smarter than me about the topic so I'll trust his call either way. 

Edited December 6, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[KDawg]

29 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I am not really even studying either dude but watched some of their players and by extension couldn't help watch either QB some and commented on the draft thread.  I won't dive deep into either because both are unrealstic gets for us.

 

So superficially -- Maye looks the prototype QB with his height, it shocked me how good he runs, I thought he was just a prototype pocket passer but he's very mobile and faster than I expected, good mobility, was accurate on all three levels with a strong arm.   But his dexterity in the pocket and movement took me by surprise. 

 

Williams was sick with off platform throws, and had sick arm talent just in general I mentioned a play on the draft thread where he had to grab a ball that was snapped over his head by the center he grabs it while being chased by a defender, throws the ball off his backfoot right before being clubbered which was impressive enough but actually nailed a 30 yard or so pass perfectly to his WR, that was one of the most wow throws I've seen. 

 

I actually didn't want to like Maye and Caleb.  I love to be contrarian versus the mock drafters but I couldn't help seeing special with both.  I didn't dive in so maybe it was just wild coincidence that I saw both QBs at their best but I was uber impressed and I didn't expect to be.  With Ewers who got some preseason hype, I wasn't impressed when I watched him, he strikes me a bit erratic with his accuracy and special traits don't jump at me.   So when some tout wait to 2025 and then mention his name, I yawn.   

 

 

 

I am not a trade the farm guy for a QB guy either especially in the context of already having Howell.  Hence I kept the conversation focused on Daniels.  

 

I also don't think teams are trading away the pick regardless, I find the whole conversation fantasy.

Now this brings me to my next point (I think Maye and Williams have a few very negative traits, but mostly really good prospects... Maye disappears in big moments, Williams accuracy can be erratic at times and throws a lot of high percentage passes).

 

But that's not the point. Assuming those two aren't on the board, and they are actually who I believe the two best prospects are at this juncture... Jayden Daniels is the next hurdle. Is he the next guy? Is he a franchise caliber guy? And why?

 

 

He has been just okay throughout his collegiate career. His low turnover numbers are high quality and consistent aside from one season. I think that is something that translates a bit so that's a major positive. He has a good arm and he is a hell of an athlete. Good height. He is 205, despite the rail thin lean look, so he's not small. 

 

He has a ton of time in the pocket at LSU and his running style will not translate. He takes too many hits and his build doesn't suggest that is a great strategy for him moving forward. But that escapability will be used and coveted at the next level. 

 

He has certainly improved his ability to read a defense and get the ball out. But again, his frame isn't a great frame for NFL purposes. But it's not awful. He needs to change the way he plays a bit. He needs to get the ball out faster.

 

He is a + athlete, + arm, + escapability, - time to throw, - run decisions and a middle of the road field reader.

 

Sounds a lot like Sam Howell, though I think Daniels has the athleticism edge and the "size" edge RE: height.

 

I think Howell has a better arm and NFL frame.

 

So then, in my eyes, the question is: Is Daniels a big enough upgrade over Howell to take at 4/5/6?

 

I'd say no.

 

Is Daniels a big enough upgrade to take over Howell in the second round? I'd say probably at that point. 

 

If we were picking in the 10-15 slot I'd certainly have more to think about as well.

 

But as it stands, I don't think he is a good enough prospect to take over Harrison Jr, Alt, Fashanu, Verse, Kool Aid, etc.

 

And I wouldn't take the latter two over Fashanu or Alt and I'd have to think long and hard about taking Harrison over them, though I think I would.

 

That's where I am. 

[Skinsinparadise]

9 hours ago, zCommander said:

 

Sam is not elite. It is too early to define that right now. But he can be with a decent OL and a productive D. He has already proven what he can do with less. Just want to see what he can do with more. My whole thing about Josh Allen was that Allen didn't start becoming true elite until his third year (because of a lot better OL and D play). It does take a QB at least 2-3 years to get to that mark. 

 

 

 

Allen has the strongest arm I've ever seen, might be stronger than Elway.  Has the size-height that's protypical plus.  Can really run and take a pounding at his size.  His accuracy is inconsistent and I don't love his decision making.

 

So using those three traits head to head with Howell.  Howell has a strong arm.  It's not though elite, its not sick arm strength like Allen.  He doesn't have ideal size-height.  I hear that part of the reason why this team doesn't want Howell running that much is they aren't sure he can take the pounding. 

 

I read a long book from Arians about the QB position and his number one thing was vision-seeing the field-quick processing.  Taller QBs like Maye have an advantage over Howell because they can literally see the field better.  Keim brings up from time to time that he hears that opposing defenses want to clutter the middle of the pocket against Howell because it makes it diffcult for QBs his size to see the field if he gets quick pressure up the middle.  It's hard for any QB to deal with it but especially for QBs without ideal height.  I think it was Logan Paulsen who said it was clearly that was the game plan for the Giants against Howell -- pressure and clutter the middle, cloud his line of vision.

 

I like Howell.  He's a baller.  He's tough.  He's not fast but he has good vision as a runner and is willing to take hits Rocky like and keeps coming.  I think his ball placement while isn't elite is good. He can make some wicked throws.   He has a good arm. 

 

When I watch him, I think he's better than some national observers give him credit for.  He gets hit by the anaytics folks for not scoring well on most of their metrics and some of his critics say he's a high end backup or his ceiling isn't high, I've heard a couple of Minchew comparisons, etc.  To me, you give him a stronger O line, better weapons and a run game and I think his consistency will come.  Experience obviously helps too.  I don't think his height is a detriment.  But its one in a series of things that IMO MAY limit him to being good and not great. 

 

So in short, he's not the fastest, not the strongest, not the most accurate, not the best pocket presence.  But I think he's good on all fronts, not sure about pocket presence but I think he can improve.  I like him off platform.  I think he's tough.  I like his calm personality.  I think he's clutch.  There is a lot I like.  And he's a big improvement IMO from what we had.  I wasn't one of the people here who wanted to get rid of Kirk.  To me good was good enough.  I'll take a good QB. 

 

Good is still good enough.  But i am in the camp that this is a good QB crop.  Not because the media tells me it is.  But because I've watched my share of college football and that's my take, too.  And if we happen to pick top 5, and the GM sees more great in another QB, I'd be open to taking that QB.  If conversely, they don't, I'd be cool with riding with Howell and building around him.  Win win to me either way.

 

As to being convinced he has "elite" upside.  I am not saying its not possible.  But my gut right now is nope but its not impossible.  But my point on this is you and I or anyone here isn't smart enough about the position to figure that out.  To me that isn't an easy call.  So if the GM decides yes he is or no he isn't and makes a decision accordingly -- I am going to trust that they know better than I do.

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

35 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Now this brings me to my next point (I think Maye and Williams have a few very negative traits, but mostly really good prospects... Maye disappears in big moments, Williams accuracy can be erratic at times and throws a lot of high percentage passes).

 

But that's not the point. Assuming those two aren't on the board, and they are actually who I believe the two best prospects are at this juncture... Jayden Daniels is the next hurdle. Is he the next guy? Is he a franchise caliber guy? And why?

 

Even though i am saying this to you, the point isn't directed at you.  I started to answer this question and then I thought it unintentionally is just baiting me into an answer that makes me come off like a Howell hater which I've never been -- i am a fan.  I am used to being part of the Howell Hive so to speak and it cool to have so many people backing you when making points on the topic.   I appreciate it more now. 

 

I am getting a taste of what its like to question him even a little.    And i am not really questioning that hard.  I am just wondering if he's elite and wondering if there isn't a QB with more upside. Wondering not stating conclusively.  To others who cover the team the point doesn't seem controversial at all.  But here, it feels like debate Hell taking it on.  So whatever I say, I'll get pounded for.  I can take it.  But I want real discussion.  Not some emotional debate where the upshot is I get falsely accused of being a critic when I've had Howell's back from the jump and in my mind at least I still do.

 

You want to nail me down on a decision now but as I said I need the weekend to watch more games.  Some (not you) like to watch highlghts and read narratives and call it a day.  For a QB, I need to watch 5 games for at least in my mind to come up with a take on a QB.  And i am not going to give my take on this thread.  I am going to do it just like i do it with other players on the draft thread.  i'll go into detail of what I think are his strengths and weaknesses.  You are asking me questions that you know I ultimately go into detail when I like or not like a player on the draft thread.  You know its not my style to go with one setence answers....or because Brugler or whomever says so I like a player.   Heck I sometimes give full page takes about the players I like. 

 

I don't know yet as I said whether I'd take Daniels or not.  Based on some of your points on that post.  On initial watch, I like him better than you do.  But aside from that, I never said here I'd take him.  I flat out said I'd consider it but not sure I'd do it.  The one player I would take if we pick third and he's there is Marvin Harrison Jr.  Although some are trying to pin me that by saying I'd consider Daniels means I'd take Daniels.  But that's BS. I've been as clear as a bell as to my point on this.  After this weekend though i'll likely have an answer as to what I'd do.

 

The last time i got pushed hard for an opinion on a QB was ironically Haskins (RIP) I asked volsmet who was pushing me to give me a weekend.  I spent one Saturday morning, just watching Haskins and my verdict was Hell No.  And I didn't expect that to be my answer.   Who knows maybe that will be my take here, too.  Will see.  But I need a full weekend morning to just watch and study him.   

 

 

Edited December 6, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[KDawg]

5 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Even though i am saying this to you, the point isn't directed at you.  I started to answer this question and then I thought it unintentionally is just baiting me into an answer that makes me come off like a Howell hater which I've never been -- i am a fan.  I am used to being part of the Howell Hive so to speak and it cool to have so many people backing you when making points on the topic.   I appreciate it more now. 

 

I am getting a taste of what its like to question him even a little.    And i am not really questioning that hard.  I am just wondering if he's elite and wondering if there isn't a QB with more upside.  To others who cover the team the point doesn't seem controversial at all.  But here, it feels like debate Hell taking it on.  So whatever I say, I'll get pounded for.  I can take it.  But I want real discussion.  Not some emotional debate where the upshot is I get falsely accused of being a critic when I've had Howell's back from the jump and in my mind at least I still do.

 

You want to nail me down on a decision now but as I said I need the weekend to watch more games.  Some (not you) like to watch highlghts and read narratives and call it a day.  For a QB, I need to watch 5 games for at least in my mind to come up with a take on a QB.  And i am not going to give my take on this thread.  I am going to do it just like i do it with other players on the draft thread.  i'll go into detail of what I think are his strengths and weaknesses.  You are asking me questions that you know I ultimately go into detail when I like or not like a player on the draft thread.  You know i am not I just like this dude because, one setence answer....or because Brugler or whomever says so.    Heck I sometimes give full page takes about the players I like. 

 

I don't know yet as I said whether I'd take Daniels or not.  Based on some of your points on that post.  On initial watch, I like him better than you do.  But aside from that, I never said here I'd take him.  I flat out said I'd consider it but not sure I'd do it.  The one player I would take if we pick third and he's there is Marvin Harrison Jr.  Although some are trying to pin me that by saying I'd consider Daniels means I'd take Daniels.  But that's BS. I've been as clear as a bell as to my point on this.  After this weekend though i'll likely have an answer as to what I'd do.

 

The last time i got pushed hard for an opinion on a QB was ironically Haskins (RIP) I asked volsmet who was pushing me to give me a weekend.  I spent one Saturday morning, just watching Haskins and my verdict was Hell No.  And I didn't expect that to be my answer.   Who knows maybe that will be my take here, too.  Will see.  But I need a full weekend morning to just watch and study him.   

 

 

To be fair, I’m not asking you anything. I’m asking the forum. I am challenging many of the members who parrot a media narrative (not you). Nothing I’ve said in this debate has been directed towards you…

 

But since when do either of us care what the masses say? I’ve been where you are. People not reading, just jumping. It’s annoying. 
 

Howell is not infallible. To me, though, it’s not about that. To me it’s about how do we turn this team around quickly. And that answer, to me, likely ISN’T taking a QB high. Of course, FA/trades need to be considered 

[PeterMP]

2 hours ago, KDawg said:

Williams certainly has + athlete traits and a strong arm. Maye has + size, a strong arm and + athlete traits. I agree there.

 

But what, on film, makes them pop? This is what I’m trying to get from people. What stuff do they do that makes them stand out as elite? We know traits don’t define a prospect. They help, though, to your point.

 

I want to add that I’m not saying they aren’t good prospects… I’m trying to get people to think for themselves a bit on this topic rather than parrot a media narrative.

 

I’m willing to bet a good portion of our fanbase isn’t aware that Caleb Williams isn’t 6-4. He’s 6-1 215. Howell, who gets some flack for his height, is 6-1 220. Just one example I am trying to get across.

 

I feel like I answered your question, and you just ignored it.

 

Their arm strength pop on tape.  Williams' athleticism pops on tape.  Maye's size and his ability to play at his height is obvious (he doesn't have a throwing motion that negates his height. he uses his size well in playing the position, and it is clearly a plus for him).

 

Would it be better if Williams was 6-4.  Sure.  But let's be realistic.  There's nobody in the NFL with his arm strength, athleticism, and that height.  Mahomes and Jackson are comparable and an inch taller.  Hurts might be somewhat similar, but I don't think he has Williams arm, and he's only 6-1 too.  Then there's a group of guys that have the height and arm strength but aren't really as athletic or fast.  I think Howell's height is an issue.  It will likely be an issue for Williams too, but Williams is easily more athletic, faster, and quicker than Howell.

 

We're talking about prospects.  They are prospects because of what they might become.  Not what they are.  They have holes in their games.  I'm not saying that either one of them is going to be great.  Nobody is saying that one of them is a generational talent, and we must draft one or either of them (at least I haven't seen that).

 

There are years where the best QB in the draft might have Williams size and athleticism but not his arm strength.  Or a guy with the really good arm but not the athleticism or height.  To have 2 guys in a draft that have the plus arm and are exceptional at something else means you have 2 elite prospects in this draft.  But, yes they are prospects.  Nobody here is anointing either one of these guys a sure thing.

 

I get that you like Howell.  I get that these guys aren't what I'd call sure things.  They are prospects.  But what they do have makes them unusual and to have two in one draft is even more unusual.  That doesn't mean they both not flop and we might look back at this draft and say it wasn't a good QB draft.

[Skinsinparadise]

8 minutes ago, KDawg said:

To be fair, I’m not asking you anything. I’m asking the forum. I am challenging many of the members who parrot a media narrative (not you). Nothing I’ve said in this debate has been directed towards you…

 

But since when do either of us care what the masses say? I’ve been where you are. People not reading, just jumping. It’s annoying. 
 

Howell is not infallible. To me, though, it’s not about that. To me it’s about how do we turn this team around quickly. And that answer, to me, likely ISN’T taking a QB high. Of course, FA/trades need to be considered 

 

Agree.  For me it's not so much about what the masses say.  It's about being pulled into a debate that's a waste of time where I am arguing against a point that I never made.    And specific to Howell, I admit i am a bit prickly when someone accuses me of not liking the dude when I've said 15 million times on this same thread that i do like him and explained why a zillion times.   

[KDawg]

3 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

 

I feel like I answered your question, and you just ignored it.

 

Their arm strength pop on tape.  Williams' athleticism pops on tape.  Maye's size and his ability to play at his height is obvious (he doesn't have a throwing motion that negates his height. he uses his size well in playing the position, and it is clearly a plus for him).

 

Would it be better if Williams was 6-4.  Sure.  But let's be realistic.  There's nobody in the NFL with his arm strength, athleticism, and that height.  Mahomes and Jackson are comparable and an inch taller.  Hurts might be somewhat similar, but I don't think he has Williams arm, and he's only 6-1 too.  Then there's a group of guys that have the height and arm strength but aren't really as athletic or fast.  I think Howell's height is an issue.  It will likely be an issue for Williams too, but Williams is easily more athletic, faster, and quicker than Howell.

 

We're talking about prospects.  They are prospects because of what they might become.  Not what they are.  They have holes in their games.  I'm not saying that either one of them is going to be great.  Nobody is saying that one of them is a generational talent, and we must draft one or either of them (at least I haven't seen that).

 

There are years where the best QB in the draft might have Williams size and athleticism but not his arm strength.  Or a guy with the really good arm but not the athleticism or height.  To have 2 guys in a draft that have the plus arm and are exceptional at something else means you have 2 elite prospects in this draft.  But, yes they are prospects.  Nobody here is anointing either one of these guys a sure thing.

 

I get that you like Howell.  I get that these guys aren't what I'd call sure things.  They are prospects.  But what they do have makes them unusual and to have two in one draft is even more unusual.  That doesn't mean they both not flop and we might look back at this draft and say it wasn't a good QB draft.

I didn't ignore any part of what you said.

 

And you're preaching to the choir RE: prospects. That's my point entirely, here, actually. 

 

You know what else Williams has (reportedly)? A bit of a primadonna attitude. Does he? I have no idea. But the experts (meaning the decision makers) will be in position to find out for real. If Williams checks out across the board, then he improves significantly as a prospect. If he doesn't (as I suspect, but have no idea) than he plummets as a prospect. 

 

The fact is: We have no idea. Either way.

 

And, like SIP, I feel like I'm on broken record mode... Just the other direction: I'm not against a QB... as long as the OL is shored up as well. If they can do that, fine. Doesn't make a lick of difference to me. I just feel that for this franchise our resources are best used elsewhere at this point in time. That may change come April. 

 

But part of looking at prospects is projecting them. And part of projecting them means you have to take reports and media into consideration and try to determine if its bull**** or real. And that's why, if you're an internet tape watcher, projecting these guys is so difficult. We are missing 70% of the equation. 

[PeterMP]

48 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Now this brings me to my next point (I think Maye and Williams have a few very negative traits, but mostly really good prospects... Maye disappears in big moments, Williams accuracy can be erratic at times and throws a lot of high percentage passes).

 

But that's not the point. Assuming those two aren't on the board, and they are actually who I believe the two best prospects are at this juncture... Jayden Daniels is the next hurdle. Is he the next guy? Is he a franchise caliber guy? And why?

 

 

First, let's see where things fall in the draft.  We could easily get to 3.  You've also ignored the possibility of trading up.  To me, that's something you'd have to consider, but again, it isn't something that I'd say they have to do.  Doing so tends to be really expensive and this team has a lot of holes.

 

I know less about the other QBs in this draft.  But if the two top guys are gone, the decision is made not to trade up, I'd probably be against taking a QB at 4.  I think at that time you either take something else or try to trade down to the 10 range and see if one of the QBs falls to you.

 

I don't think anybody here has said that a QB is a must if we end up in that 4-6 range.

[KDawg]

2 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

 

 

First, let's see where things fall in the draft.  We could easily get to 3.  You've also ignored the possibility of trading up.  To me, that's something you'd have to consider, but again, it isn't something that I'd say they have to do.  Doing so tends to be really expensive and this team has a lot of holes.

 

I know less about the other QBs in this draft.  But if the two top guys are gone, the decision is made not to trade up, I'd probably be against taking a QB at 4.  I think at that time you either take something else or try to trade down to the 10 range and see if one of the QBs falls to you.

 

I don't think anybody here has said that a QB is a must if we end up in that 4-6 range.

 

You keep saying I'm ignoring things. I'm not. I know that is your go to argument when it comes to these things. I am putting those things aside because they are things that I feel would be catastrophically stupid at this point. Trading up would be a major blunder... in my opinion.

 

And yes, we have to see where things fall in the draft. But these conversations take place in context. The post you quoted was someone saying those two guys (Maye and Williams) aren;t on the board. Follow along the context and you'll see why I made the post I made.

 

As for your second paragraph: I agree.

 

And your third: No one has said that they are. The conversation is here is centered around, "if you are in position to get an elite prospect, then take them". My argument is: I'm not sure there will be an elite prospect... especially available to us... but maybe at all.

Edited December 6, 2023 by KDawg