The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[DJHJR86]

25 minutes ago, Est.1974 said:

Honestly, I have nothing personal against Heinicke however I really hope he’s not on the roster next season. I’m sick of the circular debate on him, he’s served his purpose here. We need to get better at QB and he isn’t going to bring that to the table. Time to move on.

 

I think this is why they drafted Howell.  I hope I am wrong, but IMO, they took Howell to be the backup of the future.  

[CommanderCarson]

I thought Heineke had an excellent first half vs San Francisco. One of his best yet. But he killed us in the second and I was cool with seeing what Wentz had to offer. I actually came away quite impressed, quick decisions, ball was coming out, decisive, accurate. All good stuff.

 

Wentz definitely offers more long term upside and im not so sure his story has been written here yet. Him at at discounted rate competing with Howell for the starting job and Taylor as emergency insurance might not be the worst QB room we’ve ever had. And these last 2 games are extremely important to know whether it’s worth having him around next year.

 

It’s really as simple as that. All this nauseating back and forth, people setting up narratives for what the future holds so they can say “gotcha,” is really fricken insane to read so I’ve pretty much checked out of the debate. I don’t see a hive, never have, it’s one of the biggest straw men I’ve ever read on here.
 

Just a couple weeks ago I was pointing out some of the positives Taylor brings and how we were winning games with him contributing all the while noting he’s a limited dude that’s more of a perfect backup than legitimate starter. And I think I was probably lumped in with the “hive.”

 

Anywho, excited to see what Wentz has if he gets his shot. True redemption story, a chance to win 2 and get in after failing to do so last year and got jettisoned. His career depends on it. I’m under the impression Wentz wilts in these types of situations, but I really hope he pulls it off. I think it would be an awesome story and would have us all more jazzed about 2023.

 

[DJHJR86]

1 minute ago, CommanderCarson said:

Him at at discounted rate competing with Howell for the starting job and Taylor as emergency insurance might not be the worst QB room we’ve ever had.

 

That would be up there as one of the worst QB rooms this team has ever had.  Howell is the only wildcard on this roster who could be the guy.  And he's the only one I would keep on this roster for next year.

[CommanderCarson]

4 minutes ago, DJHJR86 said:

 

That would be up there as one of the worst QB rooms this team has ever had.  Howell is the only wildcard on this roster who could be the guy.  And he's the only one I would keep on this roster for next year.

I think Wentz is less “done” than most I suppose.

 

Look at what happened to Indy this year. They went like 9-3 one point last year with Wentz, now they have imploded. 2020 was a rough year but they were receiver-less. He’s shown glimpses this year.

 

Howell I like the upside and lottery ticket potential but obviously can’t bet on him. He’s one of my favorite QB prospects we’ve had on the roster though, could be another Kirk/Dak/Wilson situation. 
 

Heineke can step in and win games with this roster. It’s a proven fact at this point. We need better and he shouldn’t be the starter, but don’t discount the value he brings being on the roster.

 

I think we’ve easily had worse QB rooms. Beck and Grossman comes to mind lol.

[Warhead36]

We had a QB room of Shane Matthews, Danny Wuerfel, and Patrick Ramsey.

 

This is nowhere near the worst. It isn't even bottom 3 in the Snyder era.

[bowhunter]

16 minutes ago, CommanderCarson said:

 

Wentz definitely offers more long term upside and im not so sure his story has been written here yet. Him at at discounted rate competing with Howell for the starting job and Taylor as emergency insurance might not be the worst QB room we’ve ever had. And these last 2 games are extremely important to know whether it’s worth having him around next year.

 

And I think that part is the key component to Wentz being part of the equation in 2023... $$$  I personally don't think there is anything he can show in 2 games that make it worth keeping him on the roster at his current salary. We have too many holes to fill, starting first and foremost with OL. If he agrees to take a significant paycut, I'd love to have him onboard as we sort through the QB process.

[Spaceman Spiff]

1 hour ago, TradeTheBeal! said:

With the right quarterback, we may field a 12 win squad next year.

I SEE WHAT YOU DID THERE TTB.

 

subliminal messaging at its finest. 

[Redskins 2021]

How much will Wentz get on the open market? My bet is between 7 and 15 million depending on team. I could see Tampa, NYJ, New Orleans, Minnesota, Arizona, and Jacksonville potentially signing him as back up or starter.

 

Do we want Wentz back is the bigger question?

[Skinsinparadise]

 

Notes from around the league

A few weeks back we chronicled what appeared to be the end days for Derek Carr and the Raiders. That proposition has only gained more steam in NFL circles, and expect the Raiders to be jostling for draft position to try to land their quarterback of the future this spring. What’s Carr worth in a trade? Maybe a second-round pick, suggested one GM, pointing to the complicated Carson Wentz deal as a potential comp. “I think he’s better than Wentz,” said the GM, who mentioned Carolina, Washington and Tampa Bay as potential destinations for Carr. …

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2022/12/27/zach-wilson-new-york-jets/

[Est.1974]

Wonder how Davante Adams would react to Carr being moved on from LV. Their history was definitely a draw for him to move there.

[FootballZombie]

I got scared for a little bit that the Raiders were gonna salvage their season and partially turn things around enough to keep Carr. Glad that didn't happen.

 

I'd love to get my hands on him and whether you want him or not, his presence as an available option to buoy the QB market only helps us, especially since we don't have a good draft pick.

 

 

From what I can guess will be available on the market, re-signing Wentz to a reasonable deal and then chasing Carr like a rabid dog would be my Option A this offseason.

 

[HigSkin]

https://www.nfl.com/news/raiders-coach-josh-mcdaniels-doesn-t-dismiss-possibility-of-benching-qb-derek-ca

 

Raiders coach Josh McDaniels doesn't dismiss possibility of benching QB Derek Carr

 

McDaniels was asked point blank Monday whether he would consider benching Carr for backup Jarrett Stidham for the final two games. The coach didn't exactly offer a rousing defense of Carr.

 

"I think there's a possibility that we would do the right thing regardless of the position," McDaniels said.

 

If the Raiders bench Carr in the final two weeks, it could signal their intent to move on from the veteran this offseason. The three-year extension Carr signed in the offseason came with a trigger that would guarantee roughly $33 million for 2023 unless the Raiders cut him before Feb. 15 -- a cap hit of just $5.6 million would be left if they move on. Any severe injury in the final two weeks would keep Vegas on the hook for the guarantee.

 

McDaniels noted that everyone shares the blame for the Raiders' disappointing season. But, as always, the QB gets the lion's share of the heat when things go sideways.

 

"Everybody can do better, and I'm sure he'd be the first one to tell you he can do the same thing," McDaniels said.

[Skinsinparadise]

I was defintiely not on the go get Watson crew last off season though that was nothing to do with football

 

 

 

[shemp nixon]

2 minutes ago, HigSkin said:

https://www.nfl.com/news/raiders-coach-josh-mcdaniels-doesn-t-dismiss-possibility-of-benching-qb-derek-ca

 

Raiders coach Josh McDaniels doesn't dismiss possibility of benching QB Derek Carr

 

McDaniels was asked point blank Monday whether he would consider benching Carr for backup Jarrett Stidham for the final two games. The coach didn't exactly offer a rousing defense of Carr.

 

"I think there's a possibility that we would do the right thing regardless of the position," McDaniels said.

 

If the Raiders bench Carr in the final two weeks, it could signal their intent to move on from the veteran this offseason. The three-year extension Carr signed in the offseason came with a trigger that would guarantee roughly $33 million for 2023 unless the Raiders cut him before Feb. 15 -- a cap hit of just $5.6 million would be left if they move on. Any severe injury in the final two weeks would keep Vegas on the hook for the guarantee.

 

McDaniels noted that everyone shares the blame for the Raiders' disappointing season. But, as always, the QB gets the lion's share of the heat when things go sideways.

 

"Everybody can do better, and I'm sure he'd be the first one to tell you he can do the same thing," McDaniels said.

Josh McDaniels is Jim Zorn level suck. Christ on a cracker what a clown.

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

Just now, shemp nixon said:

Josh McDaniels is Jim Zorn level suck. Christ on a cracker what a clown.

 

That team is like the opposite version of the Vikings this year -- Vikings come back on teams again and again and again.  the Raiders keep blowing lead after lead after lead

[Redskins 2021]

  They wanted Carr last season. The radiers have to move on Carr fast in the offseason or his contract becomes guaranteed. I don't think we would want him at 40 million? What would a Carr trade look like? Could we sign him in FA?

Edited December 27, 2022 by Redskins 2021

[method man]

Raiders are definitely getting comped for Carr. My gut is he is more valued on the Stafford level and, with all the QB needy teams, he garners at least one first round pick. When it is all said and done, a 1st and 3rd gets it done. A creative way to get it done is Payne and the 3rd round comp pick. It would be painful to do this but it would also clear up the logjam of DL deals some.

[Skinsinparadise]

I'd be surprised if they got a 1st and 3rd for Carr.

 

He's not had the best season and his contract is a bear. 

 

Looking at that contract just now, one thing that works for it from a Dan context is very little guaranteed money in it left, so with his reported cash flow issues, its a Dan friendly contract from that context.

 

The interesting thing about it is the Raiders can't slow play it, they need to move him by February 15th otherwise it makes the trade messier because they'd absorb the guaranteed money so I gather they have to trade him just after the SB at the latest.  I'd guess like the Stafford deal, Alex Smith deal timing wise where it goes down in January.

Edited December 27, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[kingdaddy]

3 minutes ago, method man said:

Raiders are definitely getting comped for Carr. My gut is he is more valued on the Stafford level and, with all the QB needy teams, he garners at least one first round pick. When it is all said and done, a 1st and 3rd gets it done. A creative way to get it done is Payne and the 3rd round comp pick. It would be painful to do this but it would also clear up the logjam of DL deals some.

Would hate to see us let Payne go as he's had a pro bowl caliber season and is so important to our defense. Also, he's a free agent right so we really couldn't trade him could we? Aren't we trying to keep him and need to re-sign him?

[CapsSkins]

@Skinsinparadise you replied to my post where I said I want Wentz to play well enough to be a better option at $20M than Carr at $40M by saying (I’m paraphrasing) nobody would want Carr at $40M.

 

I’m a bit confused about this because I see on Spotrac that Carr’s cap hit next season is $35M and then it jumps up to $43-44M in 2024 and 2025.

 

I also see he has a full no-trade clause.

 

Now I know there’s restructuring options and some years aren’t guaranteed though I can’t seem to find those details. I’m also not sure how cap hits move over in trades since I know the trading team still has dead cap liabilities.

 

Can someone (or you SIP if you know) explain what the price tag would be for Carr? That would be very important to know before calculating a willingness to pay trade-wise or comparing other options.

[Redskins 2021]

 I would think Tampa would probably do some kind of Carr for Brady trade. If Brady would agree to it and go to LV.

Edited December 27, 2022 by Redskins 2021

[Skinsinparadise]

15 minutes ago, CapsSkins said:

@Skinsinparadise you replied to my post where I said I want Wentz to play well enough to be a better option at $20M than Carr at $40M by saying (I’m paraphrasing) nobody would want Carr at $40M.

 

I’m a bit confused about this because I see on Spotrac that Carr’s cap hit next season is $35M and then it jumps up to $43-44M in 2024 and 2025.

 

I also see he has a full no-trade clause.

 

Now I know there’s restructuring options and some years aren’t guaranteed though I can’t seem to find those details. I’m also not sure how cap hits move over in trades since I know the trading team still has dead cap liabilities.

 

Can someone (or you SIP if you know) explain what the price tag would be for Carr? That would be very important to know before calculating a willingness to pay trade-wise or comparing other options.

 

Short answer is no one knows. 

 

By nobody, i am referring to the posts here, not summarizing the league, obviously I got no clue if teams love or don't love Carr.  As for people here, I don't recall seeing a post, unless maybe i missed one about wanting Carr at the 40 million price tag. 

 

It's similar to your point about Wentz.  You say you are good with Wentz at 20 million.  For that to happen, the team has to get Wentz to agree to a restructure pay cut or release him and hit the market and let the market dictate.   As to him at 20 million, maybe that's possible, maybe its not.  For me, unless Wentz played better I'd cringe at him at 20 million still.  

 

For Carr he doesn't have much guaranteed money left in his contract, so its almost apples to apples to Wentz from that context.  The main difference is another team might want Carr in a trade, that's unlikely to be the case for Wentz.

 

Some think Carr will have to be released because of his contract, some say he won't and a team would trade for him.  Personally, i do think a trade would happen and likely the contract would be renegotiated at the same time ala what we did with Alex Smith.  Would Carr take a pay cut in that negotiation?  Don't know.  but if he didn't, and a team didn't want him at that price than the Raiders would have to release him.

 

But is it possible for a team to both take on the contract and give up picks?  Maybe.  It would be akin to what we did with Wentz from the context if you can sell the idea if it doesn't work out you can cut bait the next year considering he has so little guaranteed money.  He'd be at 35 million next year but then it rises the years after.

 

Edited December 27, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[JSSkinz]

Ron not saying who he will start yet, presser on now.

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

7 minutes ago, JSSkinz said:

Ron not saying who he will start yet, presser on now.

 

I expected that, make the Browns game prep for both.  Wentz stretches the field, Heinicke doesn't.  Other differences in preperation. 

 

 

Edited December 27, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[CapsSkins]

6 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Short answer is no one knows. 

 

By nobody, i am referring to the posts here, not summarizing the league, obviously I got no clue if teams love or don't love Carr.  As for people here, I don't recall seeing a post, unless maybe i missed one about wanting Carr at the 40 million price tag. 

 

It's similar to your point about Wentz.  You say you are good with Wentz at 20 million.  For that to happen, the team has to get Wentz to agree to a restructure pay cut or release him and hit the market and let the market dictate.   As to him at 20 million, maybe that's possible, maybe its not.  For me, unless Wentz played better I'd cringe at him at 20 million still.  

 

For Carr he doesn't have much guaranteed money left in his contract, so its almost apples to apples to Wentz from that context.  The main difference is another team might want Carr in a trade, that's unlikely to be the case for Wentz.

 

Some think Carr will have to be released because of his contract, some say he won't and a team would trade for him.  Personally, i do think a trade would happen and likely the contract would be renegotiated at the same time ala what we did with Alex Smith.  Would Carr take a pay cut in that negotiation?  Don't know.  but if he didn't, and a team didn't want him at that price than the Raiders would have to release him.

 

But is it possible for a team to both take on the contract and give up picks?  Maybe.  It would be akin to what we did with Wentz from the context if you can sell the idea if it doesn't work out you can cut bait the next year considering he has so little guaranteed money.  He'd be at 35 million next year but then it rises the years after.

 

 

Got it - thanks.

 

To be clear, I didn’t say I *am* presently cool with Wentz at $20M. My point is that I think it’s possible that he has improved with more time in the system this year, and better complementary football, such that he could play better over the next few weeks to the point that he becomes worth bringing back at $20M over Carr at $40M.

 

The takeaway is: I don’t think there’s any chance Wentz plays well enough to come back at $28M. I also don’t think he has a market at $28M, and since we have all the leverage, it only would make sense to bring him back if the price tag comes down.

 

Of course, he could also play just as badly as he did to start the season in which case I’d say don’t bring him back no matter what. But I’ve come around to the notion that it takes time for a QB to get used to a new system, which would apply to both Carson and any other QB we bring in, and which we’ve seen play out around the league. So that would also inform my calculus on making a decision at the position for next year.

 

Carr at $35M would make me queasy but I could stomach it. Carr at $40M and I’m probably out. If we can re-structure him to a $30M cap hit though, I’m very interested. My guess is he’d have a number of suitors at that price point. If LV does trade him, he’d need to waive his NTC, meaning I’m sure the agent would be looped in and negotiating extensions with would-be trade partners.

 

I do think we’d be an attractive destination with the pieces we have in place and our conference.