The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Conn]

I watched Purdy with a strong running game and good defense look like a professional QB with limited pass attempts. Threw some real zingers too. He was Mr. Irrelevant this year. 
 

I understand why his conservative nature would prevent Rivera from going to a 5th round rookie in the middle of a run at the playoffs. I get it. I’m not an idiot, my head isn’t in the clouds, I don’t think Howell is secretly Tom Brady. 
 

But I refuse to believe that Howell would be some sort of unmitigated disaster given the way he can move around and throw downfield. He’s tough, talented, and sure—probably not ready. Neither was Purdy. Neither were many of the backups we’ve seen perform admirably with moxie and toughness this year. 
 

Come on. For anyone who swears this team doesn’t have an alternative to eeking through by one single hair on our ass each week with Heinicke….you REALLY don’t think this kid Howell could give a spark, even if he also makes some mistakes? The only reason mistakes are almost impossible for us to overcome right now is because we can’t really score. Would that be the case with Howell? 
 

I really don’t believe we’d be worse off. And we’d learn a lot and have the potential for more big plays. I’m under no delusions that he’s some secret stud but I also refuse to believe that it’s impossible to put him on an NFL field right now, like some people imply. It’s not 1997. And I think it actually decreases our 2022 ceiling to hold him in reserve to only be broken out if the season’s lost. 
 

I get that Rivera won’t do it, but I’m not falling for the appeal to authority fallacy here. One of his exact flaws as a coach is the one that would prevent him from taking this risk, so I’m sorry but I’m not going to just accept “the coaches see him in the building and at practice every day”. Because if they were FORCED to start him due to multiple injuries then you know they’d have to game plan around what he does well and doesn’t do well, simplify things, whatever. They’d make it work and let him ball. They could do the same right now if they were inclined to gamble. Understandably, they are not. But being afraid to take the leap with the talented unknown lowers our ceiling, no doubt about it. I really don’t think he’d crash and burn in comparison to how Heinicke is playing. The things Heinicke has over him that help keep our offense on-schedule during the long, arduous scoring drives we do pull off, can be counter-balanced by Howell’s arm and legs. 
 

We won’t find out but I wish we could. We’re wasting a mostly good roster and Howell’s untapped potential could unlock enough of it to make up for whatever system mastery Heinicke allegedly has (which doesn’t prevent him from missing open guys and making bad decisions at times), and give us at least a hope of scoring alongside some of the better offenses we have to face. 
 

I think sometimes people forget that guys aren’t just the round they’re drafted in, no matter what the percentages say—Howell in the 5th isn’t the same as Colt Brennan in the 6th and so on. The dude has tools along with his flaws and coaches should be interested in building scoring drives around that when the alternative is going to every length to hide your current QB, no matter how well that guy knows the playbook. 

[FootballZombie]

If you don't believe in yourself as a QB, nobody should believe in you.

 

Good to see Howell has some confo, every great QB needs it.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

I imagine Riveras reservations about inserting Howell have more to do with the locker room than anything else.  One of Rivera’s strong suits is connecting with his locker room, and I imagine the vibe isn’t one that indicates the guys are ready to bail on Heinicke or Wentz and move on to Howell.

 

I agree though, that I don’t see any reason he can’t give us Heinicke+ with a similar emphasis on running the ball.  It’s just not a move you can really make all things considered.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

5 hours ago, Jumbo said:

To be fair, Mahomes has been able to pay for a place to live all on his own since he came into the league. Though I bet his sister has an even nicer couch these days than heinie's sis.

 

Fortunately heinie had a friend at one of the most sadass franchises owned by a historically sadass creep and now has some nifty new sneakers and can definitely pay his own rent.

 

😲🤐😬😝🤓

 

 

 

Sooo....male and don't live with their sisters? lol...

[Conn]

5 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I imagine Riveras reservations about inserting Howell have more to do with the locker room than anything else.  One of Rivera’s strong suits is connecting with his locker room, and I imagine the vibe isn’t one that indicates the guys are ready to bail on Heinicke or Wentz and move on to Howell.

 

I agree though, that I don’t see any reason he can’t give us Heinicke+ with a similar emphasis on running the ball.  It’s just not a move you can really make all things considered.

 

I think this is likely true, but locker rooms like winning. If Wentz and the OL had stayed healthy and gone on a streak, we’d never have heard about how much the locker room loves Heinicke again. In SF, if Lance had stayed healthy the Jimmy G Love would have stayed in the shadows all season. If Jimmy G hadn’t just gotten hurt, we’d never know that their locker room thinks Purdy is so great. It’s just the nature of things. If the gamble paid off, the locker room would be onboard. If it didn’t pay off, then the entire premise of my post would be off-base and incorrect anyways lol. 

Edited December 13, 2022 by Conn

[skinsfan66]

4 hours ago, FootballZombie said:

 

Nah, I don't think I am. The argument about a lack of faith is one I have made since last season. The OT thing is just the latest in a very long list of evidence towards that point. We have stuffed TH in a hide-the-QB gameplan every week for over a year with minimal deviation. We seem to be shrinking his role even harder this year than last.

 

 

Not to say Turner has shown evidence of going this route w/ a re-inserted Wentz but I would still want us to be a rushing predicated team, but not to the extent we currently are. I would also want some level of flux within the week-to-week gameplan to take advantage of good/bad opposing pass/rush defenses instead of the predetermined "we are gonna run the ball as much as possible no matter the opponent" gameplan we have been forced to run with TH for over a year now.

 

Stuff like "when we play a bad passing D we put more emphasis on actually passing the ball" kinda thing.

 

 

When this staff had access to Wentz, sanz his game w/ a broken finger, we were a pass heavy team, with a worse O-line then the one we have been fielding the last several weeks. Was it dumb? sure, but clearly they wanted to maximize Wentz impact. That is trust. Probably misplaced trust, but trust. They game-planned around Carson. They made him the focal point. On the other hand we game-plan "around" TH, constantly trying to both compromise w/ his lack of physical ability and minimize his role.

 

The second TH is the QB, we are one of the most rush heavy Os in the NFL.

Even last year, With a great Pass Pro oline, we were one of the most run heavy Os in the NFL.

 

No matter the quality of line in front of him, Turner chooses to go rush heavy when TH is in there. The current Pass Pro Oline is terrible, but its not the limiting factor. Its TH. You give Turner anything other than a busted finger Wentz and the O changes. Going Pass happy behind this O-line is certainly not a change for the better, but there is clear evidence that they would if they could. They actually believe in Carson's ability enough to put weight on his shoulders. When it comes to TH's gamplans its a race to take as much off of his as possible and it has been that way for a long time.

Was that great Oline in pass play last year before the blitz came?  Cause it was not great after and running more no matter who the QB is if you want to win a few games and have your QB play the next week. At least TH has escape ability and pass play numbers for OL were better because of it too.  

[Going Commando]

13 minutes ago, Conn said:

I think this is likely true, but locker rooms like winning. If Wentz and the OL had stayed healthy and gone on a streak, we’d never have heard about how much the locker room loves Heinicke again. In SF, if Lance had stayed healthy the Jimmy G Love would have stayed in the shadows all season. If Jimmy G hadn’t just gotten hurt, we’d never know that their locker room thinks Purdy is so great. It’s just the nature of things. If the gamble paid off, the locker room would be onboard. If it didn’t pay off, then the entire premise of my post would be off-base and incorrect anyways lol. 

 

It's different with Heinicke.  You can tell the other guys on the team respected Wentz and appreciated his toughness, but you can also tell they love Heinicke.  He's one of them and they like the dude on a personal level and go out of their way to praise and defend him.  You'll tolerate any asshole at QB if he's good and wins games, but they actually like Heinicke and he energizes the locker room.

 

I appreciate the effort you put into your previous post, but it's not that Ron's conservative nature is what's keeping Howell on the bench.  Benching a QB who is winning you games during a playoff push, who the locker room loves, for a day 3 rookie draft pick, who gets his first career action in four must-win games (playing behind a godawful offensive line no less) would be flat-out incompetent coaching.  Kyle Shanahan would absolutely not have played Brock Purdy if Garappalo hadn't broken his ankle, that's not a comparable situation for a host of reasons.  Going to Howell when Taylor is healthy isn't just veering wildly off-plan for no good reason, it'd be a fireable offense.  Not doing the incompetent thing is not a result of conservatism, it's a result of competence and professionalism.

[NoCalMike]

I still am sticking with my theory that the O-line is the main factor in sticking with Heinicke over Wentz.  I don't think the coaches think Heinicke is a better QB than Wentz by any means, but I do think they think Wentz is not suited to succeed with this Oline.  It's not like Heinicke is lighting it up behind the Oline either, nor is he really being any kind of duel threat with his legs necessarily, I just think the coaches feel weighing each QB's pros & cons, they feel Heinicke's pros are a better fit right now. 

[kingdaddy]

9 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Listening to Paulsen and Cooley but more Paulsen on this front, it gives me the vibe that the Giants upon scouting this team landed on the idea that this offense does not readjust protections well based on last second defensive shifts and for that reason that max protection not only didn't bother them but they welcomed it because max protect doesn't have much teeth to it if the opponent can take advantage of it which the Giants did where they easily exploited the weakness in protection and enjoyed the fact that they were often only sending 3 receivers.  

 

And the Giants playing back and bearing down on the throws from Heinicke seems set up for them to have some picks.

 

My thought is this team is better than the Giants but the Giants are well coached especially on defense and they seem to have a good beat on this team.  

This is how I look at the Giants game; the NYG suck on offense and are going the wrong way in the standings. IF they beat us then we don't deserve playoffs and would likely be one and done anyway. I also have faith in the chemistry of our team that we will take care of business and ride the Heinicke wave once again. We then head to SF and hopefully get them without Deebo. 

[Califan007 The Constipated]

22 minutes ago, NoCalMike said:

It's not like Heinicke is lighting it up behind the Oline either, nor is he really being any kind of duel threat with his legs necessarily...

 

He keeps pass plays alive with his legs...it could be that the coaches prefer that to bailing on the play and taking off running.

 

I know (or at least I think I know lol) that Rivera and Turner (and even TH himself) have said he should basically take off running more, but it might not be the issue with them as it is with fans.

[Skinsinparadise]

Albert Breer

 

https://www.si.com/nfl/2022/12/12/falcons-desmond-ridder-qb-change

 

Commanders coach Ron Rivera’s decision to stick with Taylor Heinicke with four weeks left in the season and a showdown with the Giants looming Sunday night virtually assures that Wentz will be a free agent in March.

Wentz’s current contract includes a $20 million base for 2023, and a $5 million roster bonus that’s due in mid-March. That means the Commanders will need to make a decision on Wentz by then and, seeing as he’s not even starting anymore, it’s a good bet that decision will be to release him at that time.

Where Wentz goes from there will be interesting, since he doesn’t fit the traditional mold for an NFL backup quarterback. It feels like it’d almost have to be with a team bringing him in to be the placeholder for a high draft pick, like Sam Bradford once was for him.

[NoCalMike]

11 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Albert Breer

 

https://www.si.com/nfl/2022/12/12/falcons-desmond-ridder-qb-change

 

Commanders coach Ron Rivera’s decision to stick with Taylor Heinicke with four weeks left in the season and a showdown with the Giants looming Sunday night virtually assures that Wentz will be a free agent in March.

Wentz’s current contract includes a $20 million base for 2023, and a $5 million roster bonus that’s due in mid-March. That means the Commanders will need to make a decision on Wentz by then and, seeing as he’s not even starting anymore, it’s a good bet that decision will be to release him at that time.

Where Wentz goes from there will be interesting, since he doesn’t fit the traditional mold for an NFL backup quarterback. It feels like it’d almost have to be with a team bringing him in to be the placeholder for a high draft pick, like Sam Bradford once was for him.

 

If the coaches are planning on handing the reigns over to Howell in 2023 and keeping Heinicke as a back up (who is also a FA at end of season I believe?) Then okay, but if they are flirting with bringing Heinicke back to be the starter while they continue the search for a franchise QB? Nah.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

21 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Albert Breer

 

https://www.si.com/nfl/2022/12/12/falcons-desmond-ridder-qb-change

 

Commanders coach Ron Rivera’s decision to stick with Taylor Heinicke with four weeks left in the season and a showdown with the Giants looming Sunday night virtually assures that Wentz will be a free agent in March.

Wentz’s current contract includes a $20 million base for 2023, and a $5 million roster bonus that’s due in mid-March. That means the Commanders will need to make a decision on Wentz by then and, seeing as he’s not even starting anymore, it’s a good bet that decision will be to release him at that time.

Where Wentz goes from there will be interesting, since he doesn’t fit the traditional mold for an NFL backup quarterback. It feels like it’d almost have to be with a team bringing him in to be the placeholder for a high draft pick, like Sam Bradford once was for him.

 

 

Wouldn't it be ironic if Wentz is active the rest of the season...and then TH is injured the last game of the season and Wentz comes off the bench as the backup to win the Super Bowl lol...

[Zim489]

 

thank god we didn’t draft him 

[Califan007 The Constipated]

1 minute ago, Zim489 said:

 

thank god we didn’t draft him 

 

There have been a gargantuan number of bullets dodged by this team over the past 12 months, including literally lol...

[Warhead36]

7 minutes ago, Zim489 said:

 

thank god we didn’t draft him 

Yeah I never understood the Jones hype. He was basically league average last year. I don't think there is a discernible difference between Jones and Heinicke. I mean Jones might be better, but it wouldn't be enough to elevate us out of our current tier.

[FootballZombie]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Wentz’s current contract includes a $20 million base for 2023, and a $5 million roster bonus that’s due in mid-March.

 

I know fo' dang sure he aint playin' nowhere in the NFL at 26 M

 

Beyond that and where remain to be seen. Especially w/ a flux owner situation wildcard. They may jump at the cheap and easy restructure option just to have something under their belt before the owner madness starts.

 

 

[Zim489]

4 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Yeah I never understood the Jones hype. He was basically league average last year. I don't think there is a discernible difference between Jones and Heinicke. I mean Jones might be better, but it wouldn't be enough to elevate us out of our current tier.

He’s a guy that will never be terrible. But he’ll never be good. The ultimate purgatory QB

[Conn]

2 hours ago, Going Commando said:

 

It's different with Heinicke.  You can tell the other guys on the team respected Wentz and appreciated his toughness, but you can also tell they love Heinicke.  He's one of them and they like the dude on a personal level and go out of their way to praise and defend him.  You'll tolerate any asshole at QB if he's good and wins games, but they actually like Heinicke and he energizes the locker room.

 

I appreciate the effort you put into your previous post, but it's not that Ron's conservative nature is what's keeping Howell on the bench.  Benching a QB who is winning you games during a playoff push, who the locker room loves, for a day 3 rookie draft pick, who gets his first career action in four must-win games (playing behind a godawful offensive line no less) would be flat-out incompetent coaching.  Kyle Shanahan would absolutely not have played Brock Purdy if Garappalo hadn't broken his ankle, that's not a comparable situation for a host of reasons.  Going to Howell when Taylor is healthy isn't just veering wildly off-plan for no good reason, it'd be a fireable offense.  Not doing the incompetent thing is not a result of conservatism, it's a result of competence and professionalism.

 

I understand all this, and concede that you are obviously right and rational—and you also have a good point that I did a disservice to reality by implying his conservative nature is the “only” reason Rivera would make this decision. Of course it’s logical and understandable, perhaps even advisable, for many reasons, most of which you name. What I posted is a fantasy because not many NFL coaches are going to do it, in most cases for good reason. 
 

The assumption that your post makes that I’m not prepared to 100% agree with though is that “Heinicke is winning us games” as a blanket statement. I’m not disagreeing with the basics, but what I mean by that is that I’m not prepared to surrender the point that the only reason we’re having to win games with Heinicke the way we are is precisely because of the way Heinicke plays and the way that must be gameplanned around. He’s had some late game heroics…because we haven’t been able to score more points earlier in the game. Our formula is that our defense is able to rest and we keep the opposing offense off the field with long drives sometimes…because we can’t score faster or more often and that’s the only way we can be competitive, to shorten games and increase variance. People think he “lets” us compete this way—I’m not prepared to say that those things aren’t partially caused by Heinicke in the first place. The weak OL point is legitimate, I’m just not as sure as you are that someone who can actually run out of the pocket, and threaten teams downfield with an NFL arm—leading to less defenders committed to pressure—couldn’t attain a similar level of “compensating for the OL”, just in a different way than Heinicke. 
 

Anyways, I know you’re generally correct in everything you’re saying. I’m just saying that in a different timeline where Heinicke had sprained his ankle while Wentz was still out and we were “forced” to gameplan around Howell’s own strengths and weaknesses…we may be surprised at the results. I realize taking that risk unprompted is unwise. 
 

Heinicke’s hold over the locker room exists and is cool and a good story only because we’re winning with him. And I’m just not gonna fully concede that the way we’re forced to win is the only way this roster could win. That this formula we’ve stumbled into with Heinicke is somehow special and not on the edge of freaking disaster every single week lol. Basically my whole point is that even though he’d make mistakes (note: Heinicke also makes near-disaster mistakes every week and that luck could flip at any time), Howell may be able to compensate for the poor OL in different ways than Heinicke while adding more with his skill-set. The idea that Rivera would make that swap while we’re pulling out wins we absolutely need is ludicrous, you’re correct of course. 

[tmandoug1]

Can't wait to surpass 1k pages and start on the next 1k pages as we move to the Superbowl with ---------- as the QB!

[zCommander]

Do you think Taylor should still run more after seeing Kyler Murray hurting his knee (looks like he might be done for the year) on the 3rd play of the game where he takes off running? I could see why Taylor doesn't like to run more to protect himself. I don't blame him for doing what is best for him. His stock does take a hit but staying healthy does look good for whatever the future holds for him though.

[Conn]

5 minutes ago, zCommander said:

Do you think Taylor should still run more after seeing Kyler Murray hurting his knee (looks like he might be done for the year) on the 3rd play of the game where he takes off running? I could see why Taylor doesn't like to run more to protect himself. I don't blame him for doing what is best for him. His stock does take a hit but staying healthy does look good for whatever the future holds for him though.

 

It was a non-contact injury, it had nothing to do with running or not running. Could’ve easily happened just running a bootleg. Not like a defender violently dove into the side of his knee while he ran downfield or something. 

[Califan007 The Constipated]

7 minutes ago, Conn said:

 

It was a non-contact injury, it had nothing to do with running or not running. Could’ve easily happened just running a bootleg. Not like a defender violently dove into the side of his knee while he ran downfield or something. 

 

My immediate take was maybe it's a good thing we haven't played Chase Young yet lol...not anything to do with Heinicke running.

[zCommander]

8 minutes ago, Conn said:

 

It was a non-contact injury, it had nothing to do with running or not running. Could’ve easily happened just running a bootleg. Not like a defender violently dove into the side of his knee while he ran downfield or something. 

 

I know it was non-contact injury since I was watching the game and all lol

The point was you are running and take a cut or something to avoid a defender and your knee goes out. But yeah I guess it could happen on a bootleg too. I still think Taylor likes to be known as a pocket passer more than a runner aka dual threat even though he has done well running as well. 

[Jumbo]

4 hours ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

 

Sooo..(edit) and don't live with their sisters? lol...

 

Not at the moment. Check back next season.