The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Est.1974]

9mil of Wentz’s 2023 contract money fully guarantees next March at the start of the league year. It also reads like his 2023 salary fully guarantees through injury. Not clear to what extent that is.

 

Not seeing many reasons to put him back on the field at this stage.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

8 hours ago, zCommander said:

 

You know I might have been over the top with Taylor but that was due to lots of back and forth bickering and people thinking I was an idiot. I got defensive. My stand got lost. It happens. 

 

As for the dots: You also build the lines through FA as well and not just the draft and if you have lots of money you can get better players on the market and you can do better trades too. You can't build just from the draft. I know you know that as well.  

 

When you are building you are doing just that. QB is the last piece you need. For example, like the last piece on top of the pyramid. The stones below it have to be in the right position to support and hold up the top piece. 

 

I know the FO or the coaches (pressured by Dan) didn't want to run it back with TH. And there lies the problem. I agree with you on that it was a bad choice which I think was made out of desperation rather then sitting back and saying okay what do we need to do to build this team correctly and not just trying to win the next season by dropping in only 1 player. We were no where near a QB away from being a contender. Us fans saw it but not Ron and FO didn't want to. At this point it is what it is. 

I think you get a QB whenever you can, as soon as possible.  There is never a bad time to acquire QB talent as there is so little of it on the market.  
 

When you are going into your 3rd season as head coach and still have no answer at QB, and aren’t in love with a prospect in the draft, you have to do something.  
 

The fact of the matter is Ron would be getting killed for doing nothing, just as he’s getting killed for what he did not working out.

 

 

 

 

 

[Koolblue13]

[Skinsinparadise]

“I think Taylor played like Taylor; he had his ups and downs.”

That was Jay Gruden, former Washington head coach who appeared as a guest on the “Kevin Sheehan Show” podcast Wednesday.

Here are some excerpts from Gruden.

“He (Heinicke) started out woefully slow with really bad throws. He had a fumble picked up that would have been for a touchdown if not for a horrible holding call. But he bounced back, typical Heinicke. He keeps grinding, playing hard, made some plays when it counted, some throws when it really mattered, and got the victory. So, got to applaud him.”

“I think you are going to have to live with some of his errant throws from time to time. You are going to get a tough, gritty quarterback who is going to try to find a way to move the chains with his legs, scramble around, make some throws. Tough, mentally tough, physically tough kid.”

 

“But you are going to have to rely on your defense to play well. I don’t think you are ever going to score 35 points, throw for 350 yards. But, they can win; they can win ugly. He can make enough plays to move the chains and help the team win.”

“Well, I think the issues with Carson is they were 3-22 their last 25 third downs. When you are 3-22, it means you are punting and off the field, your not maintaining any drives, not able to run the ball.”

“If you are converting third downs, you are able to get more plays in, keep your defense fresh. Heinicke gives you a bit more freedom to convert third downs because he can run. If you are not a great pocket passer, you better be able to move. Taylor gives you the ability to run.”

Sheehan inquired to what offensive coordinator Scott Turner would prefer to do when Carson Wentz was the starter.

“You have to adapt to the quarterback you have. You can’t call for deep shots if your quarterback can’t get the ball down the field. His arm isn’t THAT bad. He did throw a good go-ball to Terry McLaurin for a touchdown,. It’s not like he has a pop-gun arm.”

“With Carson, they weren’t able to move the ball 80 yards in 15 plays. With Heinicke, they have that opportunity because he adds the ability to run and convert third down.”

“He is going to get more one-on-one coverage because teams will want to load the box and force him to throw the ball down the field. So he will get more of those opportunities, where Carson saw more two-deep to get him to check it down. Heinicke? They are going to make him throw it over the top. He will have to complete three or four of those a game for this offense to be successful moving forward.”

“You are always in the market for a quarterback when you are making quarterback changes mid-season due to injury or lack of success. It’s hard to find them. To find one in the draft is going to be difficult. Where they are going to pick it’s going to be difficult. You got to have one of the first two (quarterback picks) typically, if great quarterbacks are available. Free Agents? I don’t know who is going to be free. You are always looking for a quarterback. They are hard to find.”

 

https://commanderswire.usatoday.com/2022/10/27/jay-gruden-taylor-heinicke-bounced-back/

 

 

[Koolblue13]

Now that we have to abandon the forward pass again, we should be able to lean on the run game.

[skinny21]

I don’t know about you guys, but Gruden pretty summed up my thinking on the situation.

 

 

On a separate note, I wonder what their process is with Howell right now.  If it were me, I’d give him a certain number of plays (20?  30?  50?) that he can rep over and over again and get comfortable with.  Preferably with a lot formation overlap, and preferably mixing in the different drops the offense uses.  Once he’s comfortable with those (the plays and the drop depth/timing), then work on expanding slowly.  Get him ready to play after the Eagles game - can’t imagine that’s a matchup you wanna put your rook in, and it doesn’t have to be the game after (vs HOU) necessarily, but get him in as soon as you can.

 

Obviously, if TH goes on some miraculous run, you’d probably keep him in and hope he’s your rough equivalent to Jimmy G (I get why some might prefer to shoot for a better draft slot or to evaluate Howell in that situation).

 

 

[Califan007 The Constipated]

2 hours ago, Est.1974 said:

9mil of Wentz’s 2023 contract money fully guarantees next March at the start of the league year. It also reads like his 2023 salary fully guarantees through injury. Not clear to what extent that is.

 

Not seeing many reasons to put him back on the field at this stage.

 

I think that's determined at the start of the league year...something like not passing a physical and/or determining there's something physically that would keep the player from playing in the upcoming season. Has to be football-related, of course...

[Est.1974]

2 minutes ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

 

I think that's determined at the start of the league year...something like not passing a physical and/or determining there's something physically that would keep the player from playing in the upcoming season. Has to be football-related, of course...

Yep, so we don’t want him picking up a long term injury late in the year if the intention is to move on from him in 2023.

[88Comrade2000]

Now that Tom is divorced; will Danya try to get him?

[zCommander]

10 minutes ago, 88Comrade2000 said:

Now that Tom is divorced; will Danya try to get him?

 

Yeah Tom going from one dysfunctional situation to another. He will feel right at home 

Note: I am NOT advocating that Tom should be our next QB. 

[Califan007 The Constipated]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

“But you are going to have to rely on your defense to play well. I don’t think you are ever going to score 35 points, throw for 350 yards."

 

 

 

 

A lot of interesting insights from Gruden, including stuff concerning Wentz that must have escaped me (like just how horrific the 3rd down conversions were).

 

The part above...Heinicke came close a few times...34 pts against the Falcons, 336 yds against the Giants. I'd be shocked as **** if he ever had both in the same game, though lol...

[Cooleyfan1993]

Just now, zCommander said:

 

Yeah Tom going from one dysfunctional situation to another. He will feel right at home 

Note: I am NOT advocating that Tom should be our next QB. 

Eh. I’d be all for it, just cause, ya know, why the **** not. Couldn’t possibly get any worse, right? 
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

……right??  

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, Koolblue13 said:

Now that we have to abandon the forward pass again, we should be able to lean on the run game.

 

3 of those 4 teams benefit from having a mobile-running QB so I think that adds a dimension to the running game -- Geno not as much but he has some mobility too

21 minutes ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

 

 

A lot of interesting insights from Gruden, including stuff concerning Wentz that must have escaped me (like just how horrific the 3rd down conversions were).

 

The part above...Heinicke came close a few times...34 pts against the Falcons, 336 yds against the Giants. I'd be shocked as **** if he ever had both in the same game, though lol...

 

Yeah Jay summed it up well for me including making the point that I've made, @KDawg, @Zim489 among others is that the odds lessen for you to find that QB in the draft if you aren't picking super high.

Edited October 28, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Zim489]

9 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Yeah Jay summed it up well for me including making the point that I've made, @KDawg, @Zim489 among others is that the odds lessen for you to find that QB in the draft if you aren't picking super high.

1-15 is steady decline, then 16-32 is another step down then after first rounds 2-3 falls into 5-7% range. then after round 3 it falls into a complete lottery ticket. Really I wouldnt draft any QB after pick 15. The odds are completely stacked against. 

[Califan007 The Constipated]

9 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

3 of those 4 teams benefit from having a mobile-running QB so I think that adds a dimension to the running game -- Geno not as much but he has some mobility too

 

Yeah Jay summed it up well for me including making the point that I've made, @KDawg, @Zim489 among others is that the odds lessen for you to find that QB in the draft if you aren't picking super high.

 

I agree, although I think having the right head coach, GM, and a healthy organizational structure matters more than having a high draft pick...which we have never had all three during Snyder's entire tenure lol 😐.

[Koolblue13]

1 hour ago, 88Comrade2000 said:

Now that Tom is divorced; will Danya try to get him?

Come on now. The poor guy is already hurting enough. 

[wit33]

 

1 hour ago, Zim489 said:

1-15 is steady decline, then 16-32 is another step down then after first rounds 2-3 falls into 5-7% range. then after round 3 it falls into a complete lottery ticket. Really I wouldnt draft any QB after pick 15. The odds are completely stacked against. 

Dual threat QB, those guys have been successful and available in later ranges you shared. If drafting a QB later in draft, 100% a prerequisite is being a magician in and out of the pocket. A more inclined pocket passer later in the draft is almost a guarantee to not provide a positive ROI. 
 

I agree with your overall point though. 

[Koolblue13]

It seems like with the running QBs (as opposed to mobile QBs), you can build a team around them without needing to completely rely on them.

 

For example, Hurts and Tua, younger Rus, had very good teams with some seriously good skill players around them.

[Llevron]

12 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

It seems like with the running QBs (as opposed to mobile QBs), you can build a team around them without needing to completely rely on them.

 

For example, Hurts and Tua, younger Rus, had very good teams with some seriously good skill players around them.

 

I almost wonder how "plug an play" you can get with this kind of structure. I have always wondered if I could have RG3, with 2 more running although less talented, guys behind him and how far you could go with that. Specifically, I think all the time about that Playoff game and if we had a backup that could run the read option and didn't have to keep Griffin in to salt the game away. 

 

Basically a few athletic game managers and the rest of the team be as talented as possible around them. 

[Koolblue13]

1 minute ago, Llevron said:

 

I almost wonder how "plug an play" you can get with this kind of structure. I have always wondered if I could have RG3, with 2 more running although less talented, guys behind him and how far you could go with that. Specifically, I think all the time about that Playoff game and if we had a backup that could run the read option and didn't have to keep Griffin in to salt the game away. 

 

Basically a few athletic game managers and the rest of the team be as talented as possible around them. 

This season the passing league is being dominated by running games, thanks to running QBs. I think there's something to what you're saying as far as a natural evolution of the game.

 

The league has basically done everything they could to make it a QB superstar showcase, but outside of a small handful of guys and the way you have to blow up your teams future to get one, I don't see why not.

 

We see a lot of QBs turn into TEs. Maybe we'll start seeing college QBs built like RBs soon.

[Voice_of_Reason]

7 hours ago, KDawg said:

It isn’t that complicated.

 

Wentz and Heinicke aren’t the answers.

We knew that about TH last season. Actually, the coaching staff knew that when

1. They didn't sign him as a FA and instead traded for Kyle Allen

2. Didn't sign him even to the practice squad

3. Signed him to a $5m, 2 year backup deal and immediately went out to find a starting QB, tried to trade for Stafford and then settled on Fitz

4. Saw him play all year

5. Told literally everybody they needed a QB, and even called Andrew Luck, every team, and every possible QB they needed a QB.

 

Liteally everybody knows what he is except for people here who want to romanticize his moxie, while he had a pick-6 and really should have had a scoop and score fumble last week.  He was DREADFUL for a half of football.  When the run game got going, and the full Joe Barry effect was in full force, things were better.  He had 2 really good throws on the TDs.  

 

The last 3rd down pass which McLaurin caught?  8 times out of 10 that duck is picked off for a pick-6.  

 

He also concussed his TE with a murder ball.  

 

Wentz at least had a shot. TH has no shot.  He just had an AWFUL start and good finish against a defense coordinated by the biggest idiot to coordinate a defense LITERALLY IN THE HISTORY OF THE NFL.  

 

7 hours ago, KDawg said:

Heinicke will be cheaper to re-sign, possibly by around 15-20M. 

You're joking, right?  If any organization pays TH $15m every single executive should be fired out of a cannon.  

 

7 hours ago, KDawg said:

Can’t go into next season with either of them as the primary QB unless we can’t find a better option.

I'd really like to see a sample size on Wentz that's greater than what we've had and with a somewhat competent OL. He played behind an OL consisting of Martin and Turner for multiple games.  He was learning a new offense, and then the entire OL collapsed around him all at once.  That's mostly on Ron, going into the season without a backup center and counting on Schweitzer to be the backup center and guard was really stupid.  

 

What we saw is when he had time, Wentz was very good.  When he didn't, he was really terrible.  

 

He might still suck.  I don't know.  But I have no interest at all in seeing TH play.  None.  I know what he is not, and that is a starting NFL QB who can win enough games to get a team to the playoffs and compete in the playoffs.  Wentz might be, Howell might be, TH is not.  The odds are that none of them are.  And the odds might be Howell has the best shot of the three of them to be that guy.  

 

But I'm pretty sure if TH had started the Detroit, Philly and Dallas games, with our OL and their pass-rush, he would have faired about as well as Wentz.  Maybe escaped a bit more, but to what end, I'm not sure.  

 

Personally, I'd like to see Wentz again for at least 4-5 games to se if he's worth keeping even as a stop gap.  If he's not, so be it, it was a gamble, it failed, you move on.  

 

If they're not going to go back to Wentz, then they need to go to Howell.  

 

But if they keep trotting TH out there every week to go 7-10 again while running the stuffing out of the ball only to get destroyed by any team with a good offense and well coordinated defense would be a massively stupid mistake.  

 

7 hours ago, KDawg said:

We won’t find a better option if we win 3-4 more games unless Howell is it.

 

Therefore: Wentz needs to go. Heinicke will likely be re-upped, Howell will get a chance and then we’ll see what else happens.

My God, if TH is re-upped for anything other than a backup role, we are stuck in a state of permanent denial.  It would be another year of not building towards anything with no hope of anything other than mediocre happening.  

 

He might have some success this week against a Colt's team which clearly has recognized it's old QB isn't going to take them where they want to go, so they are full-on in the tank to get as high a pick as possible  Will that extend to the defense?  I dunno.  

 

Wait until Minnesota and the Eagles again before telling me TH should even be on ANY NFL roster next season, let alone this one.  Maybe.  I still very much have my doubts.  Maybe he will prove me wrong.   

 

NOTHING about his performance against Green Bay showed me anything other than he's a disaster waiting to happen, and managed to take advantage of the worst coordinated defense in the NFL.

[Est.1974]

9 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

  If any organization pays TH $15m every single executive should be fired out of a cannon.  

I’m pretty sure the comment was 15mil cheaper......

[KDawg]

15 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

We knew that about TH last season. Actually, the coaching staff knew that when

1. They didn't sign him as a FA and instead traded for Kyle Allen

2. Didn't sign him even to the practice squad

3. Signed him to a $5m, 2 year backup deal and immediately went out to find a starting QB, tried to trade for Stafford and then settled on Fitz

4. Saw him play all year

5. Told literally everybody they needed a QB, and even called Andrew Luck, every team, and every possible QB they needed a QB.

 

Liteally everybody knows what he is except for people here who want to romanticize his moxie, while he had a pick-6 and really should have had a scoop and score fumble last week.  He was DREADFUL for a half of football.  When the run game got going, and the full Joe Barry effect was in full force, things were better.  He had 2 really good throws on the TDs.  

 

The last 3rd down pass which McLaurin caught?  8 times out of 10 that duck is picked off for a pick-6.  

 

He also concussed his TE with a murder ball.  

 

Wentz at least had a shot. TH has no shot.  He just had an AWFUL start and good finish against a defense coordinated by the biggest idiot to coordinate a defense LITERALLY IN THE HISTORY OF THE NFL.  

 

You're joking, right?  If any organization pays TH $15m every single executive should be fired out of a cannon.  

 

I'd really like to see a sample size on Wentz that's greater than what we've had and with a somewhat competent OL. He played behind an OL consisting of Martin and Turner for multiple games.  He was learning a new offense, and then the entire OL collapsed around him all at once.  That's mostly on Ron, going into the season without a backup center and counting on Schweitzer to be the backup center and guard was really stupid.  

 

What we saw is when he had time, Wentz was very good.  When he didn't, he was really terrible.  

 

He might still suck.  I don't know.  But I have no interest at all in seeing TH play.  None.  I know what he is not, and that is a starting NFL QB who can win enough games to get a team to the playoffs and compete in the playoffs.  Wentz might be, Howell might be, TH is not.  The odds are that none of them are.  And the odds might be Howell has the best shot of the three of them to be that guy.  

 

But I'm pretty sure if TH had started the Detroit, Philly and Dallas games, with our OL and their pass-rush, he would have faired about as well as Wentz.  Maybe escaped a bit more, but to what end, I'm not sure.  

 

Personally, I'd like to see Wentz again for at least 4-5 games to se if he's worth keeping even as a stop gap.  If he's not, so be it, it was a gamble, it failed, you move on.  

 

If they're not going to go back to Wentz, then they need to go to Howell.  

 

But if they keep trotting TH out there every week to go 7-10 again while running the stuffing out of the ball only to get destroyed by any team with a good offense and well coordinated defense would be a massively stupid mistake.  

 

My God, if TH is re-upped for anything other than a backup role, we are stuck in a state of permanent denial.  It would be another year of not building towards anything with no hope of anything other than mediocre happening.  

 

He might have some success this week against a Colt's team which clearly has recognized it's old QB isn't going to take them where they want to go, so they are full-on in the tank to get as high a pick as possible  Will that extend to the defense?  I dunno.  

 

Wait until Minnesota and the Eagles again before telling me TH should even be on ANY NFL roster next season, let alone this one.  Maybe.  I still very much have my doubts.  Maybe he will prove me wrong.   

 

NOTHING about his performance against Green Bay showed me anything other than he's a disaster waiting to happen, and managed to take advantage of the worst coordinated defense in the NFL.

You are the king of reading something (or many things) incorrectly and then going on a novella sized rant.

 

 

[AlwaysBeRedskins2Me]

6 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

“I think Taylor played like Taylor; he had his ups and downs.”

That was Jay Gruden, former Washington head coach who appeared as a guest on the “Kevin Sheehan Show” podcast Wednesday.

Here are some excerpts from Gruden.

“He (Heinicke) started out woefully slow with really bad throws. He had a fumble picked up that would have been for a touchdown if not for a horrible holding call. But he bounced back, typical Heinicke. He keeps grinding, playing hard, made some plays when it counted, some throws when it really mattered, and got the victory. So, got to applaud him.”

“I think you are going to have to live with some of his errant throws from time to time. You are going to get a tough, gritty quarterback who is going to try to find a way to move the chains with his legs, scramble around, make some throws. Tough, mentally tough, physically tough kid.”

 

“But you are going to have to rely on your defense to play well. I don’t think you are ever going to score 35 points, throw for 350 yards. But, they can win; they can win ugly. He can make enough plays to move the chains and help the team win.”

“Well, I think the issues with Carson is they were 3-22 their last 25 third downs. When you are 3-22, it means you are punting and off the field, your not maintaining any drives, not able to run the ball.”

“If you are converting third downs, you are able to get more plays in, keep your defense fresh. Heinicke gives you a bit more freedom to convert third downs because he can run. If you are not a great pocket passer, you better be able to move. Taylor gives you the ability to run.”

Sheehan inquired to what offensive coordinator Scott Turner would prefer to do when Carson Wentz was the starter.

“You have to adapt to the quarterback you have. You can’t call for deep shots if your quarterback can’t get the ball down the field. His arm isn’t THAT bad. He did throw a good go-ball to Terry McLaurin for a touchdown,. It’s not like he has a pop-gun arm.”

“With Carson, they weren’t able to move the ball 80 yards in 15 plays. With Heinicke, they have that opportunity because he adds the ability to run and convert third down.”

“He is going to get more one-on-one coverage because teams will want to load the box and force him to throw the ball down the field. So he will get more of those opportunities, where Carson saw more two-deep to get him to check it down. Heinicke? They are going to make him throw it over the top. He will have to complete three or four of those a game for this offense to be successful moving forward.”

“You are always in the market for a quarterback when you are making quarterback changes mid-season due to injury or lack of success. It’s hard to find them. To find one in the draft is going to be difficult. Where they are going to pick it’s going to be difficult. You got to have one of the first two (quarterback picks) typically, if great quarterbacks are available. Free Agents? I don’t know who is going to be free. You are always looking for a quarterback. They are hard to find.”

 

https://commanderswire.usatoday.com/2022/10/27/jay-gruden-taylor-heinicke-bounced-back/

 

 

Jay, it wasn't a " horrible " holding call. First of all, the call was for an illegal contact infraction, not hold. Secondly it was technically the correct call to make. You can't put two hands on the wr for several seconds while he runs his route. They have said they are emphasizing that kind of penalty. They've burned us with it before too.

[Zim489]

1 hour ago, Koolblue13 said:

This season the passing league is being dominated by running games, thanks to running QBs. I think there's something to what you're saying as far as a natural evolution of the game.

There has been a ton of shell defenses preventing deep balls. These younger QBs and honestly new school OCs havent adjusted yet. Not a lot of attacking of intermediate routes in front of safeties