The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[NickyJ]

4 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

You left one thing out and its the overarching thing for this franchise. 

 

4. Coach Gibbs. 

 

We all know that among other things Coach Gibbs is a deeply religious guy. Gibbs was influential in the Rivera hire and serves as a mentor to Rivera. I want to say they talked about bringing in Wentz (but i can be wrong on that). But all that has to happen for this fan base is for Gibbs to say he's good and this town will run with it. More than the local sports media, more than the national sports media, more than twitter fans or reddit fans or extremeskins fans, that man talks football and this town listens. And we already see that Wentz has a lot of the characteristics of a GIbbs QB - tall, good deep ball, super smart, studies film. It wouldn't even surprise me if Gibbs has taken on a mentoring role of Wentz in this whole ordeal and helped him to keep his mind right. I'd also add in Norv Turner as he was influential in the development of Aikman and Rivers. This is to say nothing about Scott Turner, but for all the lack we have had in terms of success at the QB position we have some guys here who can help with the development of Wentz. 

We all love Joe Gibbs. He's great. He's one of the best coaches ever.

 

Joe Gibbs saying he likes something means squat for the fans. He's 81 and 17 years past coaching this team. He's a sweet old man who would congratulate anyone for making a finger painting if one of us had the courage to walk up to his face and show it to him. You might think I'm exaggerating, but he already did that for the team's taco holder logo. Gibbs isn't going to get out of his Nascar-seat shaped rocking chair to wade into a ****storm.

 

I don't doubt Joe Gibbs was an influence when he talked to Ron Rivera. Gibbs is a godly man, so Ron probably took it to heart when he said God can forgive Ron for working with Dan Snyder. But Joe Gibbs is not going to be a factor in the fate of Carson Wentz.

[Thinking Skins]

2 minutes ago, NickyJ said:

We all love Joe Gibbs. He's great. He's one of the best coaches ever.

 

Joe Gibbs saying he likes something means squat for the fans. He's 81 and 17 years past coaching this team. He's a sweet old man who would congratulate anyone for making a finger painting if one of us had the courage to walk up to his face and show it to him. You might think I'm exaggerating, but he already did that for the team's taco holder logo. Gibbs isn't going to get out of his Nascar-seat shaped rocking chair to wade into a ****storm.

 

I don't doubt Joe Gibbs was an influence when he talked to Ron Rivera. Gibbs is a godly man, so Ron probably took it to heart when he said God can forgive Ron for working with Dan Snyder. But Joe Gibbs is not going to be a factor in the fate of Carson Wentz.

You can say that but there is the factor of who will Carson listen to? If Gibbs reaches a hand out to Carson, do you think Carson is just going to ignore it? It'd be different if he was 81 and not of sound mind, but dude seems like he's still one of the smartest men in the world. 

 

Then there's the question of what the fans would think of Gibbs's stamp. I'm not talking about the ecochambers of the internet. But in real life settings, Gibbs still walks on water. Hell a lot of people are still high on Rivera because of Gibss. Dude walked away after a SB win for like 15-20 years, came back and took us to our best success since, and then retires again and we've been in the slums since then. For many fans, he's the only light of hope we've had as fans. Heck for most fans. So I'd think his word carries a lot of weight. Sure the media will either ignore it or try to go against it but I'd bet that even they or their callers aren't willing to say "Gibbs has lost his fastball". 

 

I just think that GIbbs could be rooting for Wentz, not just because of this team, but also because of the guy he is and how he plays and how he gets ready for games and it seems like they have a lot in common. 

[FootballZombie]

Oof. Check engine light blaring and people just choose to keep on truckin. Can't have clearer signs of danger ahead.

[Mrshadow008]

51 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

You can say that but there is the factor of who will Carson listen to? If Gibbs reaches a hand out to Carson, do you think Carson is just going to ignore it? It'd be different if he was 81 and not of sound mind, but dude seems like he's still one of the smartest men in the world. 

 

Then there's the question of what the fans would think of Gibbs's stamp. I'm not talking about the ecochambers of the internet. But in real life settings, Gibbs still walks on water. Hell a lot of people are still high on Rivera because of Gibss. Dude walked away after a SB win for like 15-20 years, came back and took us to our best success since, and then retires again and we've been in the slums since then. For many fans, he's the only light of hope we've had as fans. Heck for most fans. So I'd think his word carries a lot of weight. Sure the media will either ignore it or try to go against it but I'd bet that even they or their callers aren't willing to say "Gibbs has lost his fastball". 

 

I just think that GIbbs could be rooting for Wentz, not just because of this team, but also because of the guy he is and how he plays and how he gets ready for games and it seems like they have a lot in common. 

NVM just saw you already spoke on the religion part 🤣

Edited May 19, 2022 by Mrshadow008

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

1 hour ago, FootballZombie said:

Oof. Check engine light blaring and people just choose to keep on truckin. Can't have clearer signs of danger ahead.

Sometimes the check engine light is related to something as simple as a blown fuse.

 

We get it, you believe it means the entire transmission is blown and the vehicle belongs at the salvage yard.

 

I’ll be curious to see if you will stick around and eat crow on this if Carson performs.  Because you are sort of on an island with your disgust on this trade.

[FootballZombie]

9 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Because you are sort of on an island with your disgust on this trade.

 

An island big enough for me the and the majority of the free world. I think that qualifies more as a continent at this point. Its like I'm stranded on Pangaea over here.

 

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-2022-quarterback-tiers-seth-galina

Edited May 19, 2022 by FootballZombie

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

9 minutes ago, FootballZombie said:

 

An island big enough for me the and the majority of the free world. I think that qualifies more as a continent at this point. Its like I'm stranded on Pangaea over here.

 

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-2022-quarterback-tiers-seth-galina

 

I think we're all well aware that most everyone outside of here expects this to be a failure.  Generally speaking, it's easy money to bet against this team.

 

My point was that here on this site, you are on an island as far as your pessimism.  Not that everyone here loves it or believes in it, but you are the most rabid about it being absolutely awful.  The rest of us are kind of in a 'can't lose' scenario because we generally expect the worst, and anything outside of that is a bonus.  But all this Wentz hate is just making me want to root for him.  That in conjunction with him having a live NFL arm, gives me at least something to be interested in rooting for this upcoming season.  

[Califan007 The Constipated]

Damn...

 

 

 

Please give this man the QB he deserves, Carson.

[FootballZombie]

6 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I think we're all well aware that most everyone outside of here expects this to be a failure.  Generally speaking, it's easy money to bet against this team.

 

My point was that here on this site, you are on an island as far as your pessimism.  Not that everyone here loves it or believes in it, but you are the most rabid about it being absolutely awful.  The rest of us are kind of in a 'can't lose' scenario because we generally expect the worst, and anything outside of that is a bonus.  But all this Wentz hate is just making me want to root for him.  That in conjunction with him having a live NFL arm, gives me at least something to be interested in rooting for this upcoming season.  

 

Everything I've said comes from a stance of realism to me. I have combated the idea that Wentz pulls a Chicxulub impression. I've held steadfast that I expect him to remain more around what he has been and only resisted the idea that he will magically return to or exceed what he was a half decade ago.

 

But if your going to acknowledge that the majority of the outside world expects problems, and then claim that this is a "can't lose scenario" in the same post then maybe my viewpoint should not be the one in question here. I see a lot of the potential issues that the majority of the outside world is seeing and that is reflected in my stance of him remaining a sub-average starting QB.

 

 

I have us w/ a winning record this year, so its not like I'm betting we collapse in horrific fashion.

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

57 minutes ago, FootballZombie said:

 

An island big enough for me the and the majority of the free world. I think that qualifies more as a continent at this point. Its like I'm stranded on Pangaea over here.

 

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-2022-quarterback-tiers-seth-galina

 

I think everyone should note this:

Quote

***Note: These are tiers, not rankings. So, the quarterbacks within each tier are ranked against each other, not every quarterback. For example, we are not comparing Matt Ryan (Tier A) to Patrick Mahomes (Tier B).***

 

I'm going to assume Wentz in Group E and Drew Lock in Group D was a swap typo or something.  Because each one fits perfectly with the other grouping.

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

 

[SkinsFTW]

It really comes down to the last 2 games for Wentz in Indy because they praised him for winning the game on Christmas vs the Cardinals with Leonard and Nelson both out with Covid. Almost 1/2 their team was out with Covid, then the following week Wentz gets covid and still plays, with covid, and it's his fault that they blew 2 games. He probably wishes that he said that he was still sick and not played.

 

 

Colts 'Adapt, Adjust' To COVID News To Pull Off Christmas Day Miracle

Missing roughly half of its starting lineup and making a cross-country trip to Arizona, the Colts found a way to win when the chips were down, remaining red-hot down the stretch.

 

Indianapolis Colts 'Adapt, Adjust' To COVID News To Pull Off Christmas Day Miracle - Sports Illustrated Indianapolis Colts News, Analysis and More

 

 

[Tundra scout]

Good interview with Cowherd with Wentz 

 

Sorry I see now this was already posted 

Edited May 19, 2022 by Tundra scout

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

3 hours ago, FootballZombie said:

 

But if your going to acknowledge that the majority of the outside world expects problems, and then claim that this is a "can't lose scenario" in the same post then maybe my viewpoint should not be the one in question here. I see a lot of the potential issues that the majority of the outside world is seeing and that is reflected in my stance of him remaining a sub-average starting QB.

The majority of the outside world has applauded prior moves we made that ended up not very good.  The majority of the outside world has pooped on things we’ve done and they turned out okay.

 

I’m not as taken by what they are saying as you are.  
 

The only real difference between our opinions is that I think there’s a chance Wentz style of play can work here and he can be better than average.  You believe that’s not a possibility.  I also believe it was worth a shot to see if it can work, given the options at our disposal. That’s what I mean by “can’t lose”.  We were looking at potentially running it back with Heineke or hitching our wagons to Trubisky.  Rolling with Wentz is a much better option/gamble IMO.

 

 

Edited May 19, 2022 by BatteredFanSyndrome

[Voice_of_Reason]

On 5/18/2022 at 4:05 PM, Skinsinparadise said:

So Wentz the 28th best QB in the league, a spot lower than Daniel Jones.  The level of hate for Wentz especially by the national media and the media draft community is off the charts.

This is is bizarre in a lot of ways.

 

1-4 I can get behind:

1 - Mahomes

2 - Allen

3 - Rodgers

4 - Brady.

 

Frankly, you could put those 4 in any order and I wouldn’t call you crazy. 
 

5. Herbert

6. Burrow

7. Dak

8. Lamar

9. Stafford

10. Watson

 

 

Now I have a problem with some of that.  
 

I think Burrow has shown he probably deserves to be next.  Stafford just won the SB and was the missing piece for the Rams.

 

Lamar is an MVP candidate when he’s a healthy.

 

I get you have to put Watson somewhere.  And he hasn’t played in a year.  But last time he played he was a top 5 guy. 
 

Dak at 6 is a total reach.   I think Of this group, he’s 10 and there’s very little debate about it.

 

11. Wilson

12. Murray

13. Carr

14. Ryan

15. Cousins

16. Tannehill 

17. Hurts

18. Mac jones

19. Winston

20. Jimmy G.

Personally, I probably would out Wilson, Murray and Carr ahead of Dak in some order.  Jimmy G. being behind Mac Jones and Hurts is wrong.  Mac Jones and Hurts in the top 20 is wrong.  Winston in the top 20 is wrong.  I do think Cousins and Tannehill are about where they should be.  I’d personally put Wentz in the same group with Cousins, Tannehill, Ryan and Carr. 
 

21. Baker

22. Tua

23. Lawrence

24. Fields

25. Mills

26. Zach Wilson

27. Daniel Jones 

28. Wentz

29. Goff

30. Darnold 

31. Mitch

32. Drew Lock

 

 

Wentz should be ahead of everybody on this part of the list and that’s not close.  Mills? Really? Fields? Zach Wilson.  What’s he done? Daniel Jones? Really?  
 

Wentz had a pretty good season last year.  Not great.  But far from bad.  The QBs from 20-32 are all bad.  Or at least had bad seasons.  
 

I’d personally put Darnold last.  Absent any other information, I’d probably put Mitch ahead of Lawrence, Fields, Mills and Zach Wilson.  More because he’s had a modicum of success and the others really haven’t yet.  

[FootballZombie]

9 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

 

 

That is not a good representation of my stance.

 

You have taken "I don't see this below average transmission, that we way overpaid for, working any better in this new car than it has in others over the past several years" and replaced it w/

 

4 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

 the entire transmission is blown and the vehicle belongs at the salvage yard.

 

I'm not the guy saying he flames out in 5 games, in fact I've argued the opposite. I have us w/ a winning record and a fringe playoff team, not a bottom feeding squad that belongs in the trash bin.

 

No where have I said it is impossible for Wentz to be better than average. I have argued he has been sub average before he got here and will continue to be sub-average, not that its impossible for improvement. Those are two very different trains of thought.

 

 

Is it possible for Wentz have a great year? Absolutely.

Do I think its gonna realistically happen? Absolutely not. Way too many question marks would have to swing in his favor.

 

 

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

15 minutes ago, FootballZombie said:

s it possible for Wentz have a great year? Absolutely.

Do I think its gonna realistically happen? Absolutely not. Way too many question marks would have to swing in his favor.

What’s a great year?  
 

Last year he was 3400 yards, 27 TDs and 7 INTs.  Basic stats.  QBR was 9th in the league.  But the Colts ran the snot out of the ball.  It was a run first offense.  
 

I doubt ours will be.  I think they’re going to let Wentz throw the ball down the field a bunch. That will lead to more chunk plays, but probably an uptick in INTs also.  
 

So what’s a great season? 4400 yards, 35 TDs and 10 INTs?  
 

Im not sure if that’s “great” but Taylor Heineke threw for 3400 yards, 20TDs and 15 INTs in 15.5 games last year in this offense.  Which was missing Samuel and Thomas for most of the year, and they didn’t really have a 3rd option at WR.  And McKissic was hurt also.  
 

I absolutely think the numbers I proposed are achievable.  And I think that would qualify as, at least, a very good season.  

[lovemaskins]

If Wentz has the numbers above we're a serious playoff contender if our defense is middle of the pack.

[Voice_of_Reason]

7 minutes ago, lovemaskins said:

If Wentz has the numbers above we're a serious playoff contender if our defense is middle of the pack.

If Wentz had the numbers above, absent other catastrophes, we win the division.  

[FootballZombie]

1 hour ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

So what’s a great season? 4400 yards, 35 TDs and 10 INTs?  
 

Im not sure if that’s “great” but Taylor Heineke threw for 3400 yards, 20TDs and 15 INTs in 15.5 games last year in this offense.  Which was missing Samuel and Thomas for most of the year, and they didn’t really have a 3rd option at WR.  And McKissic was hurt also.  
 

I absolutely think the numbers I proposed are achievable.  And I think that would qualify as, at least, a very good season.  

 

I don't think a good year is about raw numbers but entrenching yourself as a franchise QB. He has to put the behavior problems and erratic play behind him and become the long term future of this team, not a guy doing high priced auditions. He could have fantastic numbers, but if he is dogged by the same things here as were the case in other places, the team will still move on and the numbers will mean squat. If he does not become the future of this franchise, nothing else matters, his tenure will be looked on w/ scorn and the process would be seen as a failure.

 

 

As for 4.4K and 35 TDs and 10 INTs, I don't think he needs numbers like that to achieve the above goal if he keeps his nose clean. He is likely a fringe if not potential MVP w/ a line like that. Its dang near A-Rod

 

Needless to say, I don't think they are realistic goalpost numbers for Wentz.

 

That would constitute the greatest season in Wentz career... by a lot.

He has never come close to that kind of yardage, only surpassing 4K once by the skin of his teeth.

He has never had 35 TDs either

 

I don't see Wentz becoming something he has never been. Is it possible sure, realistic, not so much.

Edited May 20, 2022 by FootballZombie

[Voice_of_Reason]

@FootballZombie it’s a new, more explosive offense and this is by far the best supporting cast he’s had from skill position players.  
 

And he probably would have gotten to 4K yards in 2017 if he hadn’t missed 3 games.
 

And there is a 17th game.

 

I think with a different a offensive philosophy, and a good supporting cast, it’s possible.  
 

Maybe not entirely likely.  But I think it’s possible. 

[FootballZombie]

1 hour ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

@FootballZombie it’s a new, more explosive offense and this is by far the best supporting cast he’s had from skill position players.  

 

On paper, possibly... on production... not so much. Too many question marks.

 

The WR corps has a chance to be good on paper, but it is wildly reliant on potential and not proven production. Terry is great, but Samuel contributed nothing last year. Dot as a rookie is pure potential, and has proved nothing in the league. You can say similar things about Dynami after barely contributing last year. In terms of production, there are not a lot of top 4 WR sets that have produced less than this group. You would have to look at teams like ATL and NYJ to find clubs relying on this level of production. Between our bottom 3 of top 4 WRs we have less than 200 yds last year.

 

Similar issues w/ the TE spot. Logan has been great, but there is a question if he will be ready to go by the start of the year and even if he can you gotta wonder if he will be the same guy. Without him, you have a player who got 250 yards, a guy who just started playing football a year ago and a rookie. I love our depth TEs, but If Thomas cant go you have 2 years of Xp and 250 yards at the spot. That is among the worst in the NFL. not ideal. No proven production, all promise.

 

Then there is the OLine, the group I am most bullish on. I am of the assumption that we will be starting 2 new Guards that were not on the team last year. That means every blocking relationship from LT to RT is brand new and there is nothing to fall back on. I really trust our coaches, but again, you don't have the proven production that rolling back the same or similar line as last year provided. If you just replaced one guy, like Scheriff, at least you could rely on some relationship continuity.

 

Then there is the playcalling. Even though he has been undeniably hamstrung, Scott Turner has not fielded an above average passing attack in his two years as OC. He did manage an above average rushing attack last year, and I'm not convinced we won't continue to operate in this mode. Defenders against our team were paying rent to live in the box, achieving an above avg rushing attack is pretty astonding. Regardless, he has to prove his playcalling works better this year than it has in the past.

 

Speaking of rushing we are returning both Gibby and McK. Proven players who can both be pieces of your O. Even tho the new guy is pure potential as a rookie, you at least have guy who was your 1000 yd bellcow last year and a proven COP back. There is good stuff there and I expect us to rely on it given the unproven production across the board everywhere else.

 

Then there is Wentz. Who is moving to a new team and new system, this time without the assistance of a familiar guy at the head of the controls to ease the transition. Wentz has never made a transfer this radical in his NFL career. He also no longer has the safety nets provided with being a top pick in Philly, or the prized pickup in Indy. That means even smaller margins of error. No Roseman to intimidate the rest of the staff who dares speak ill against him, no Frank to stick his neck out for him. The lamp shines hotly on QBs, but he is gonna be a grilled cheese on a skillet this season.

 

 

I expect some of these situations to play in our favor, but not all of them. Injuries will take some things away and we are really hoping on great production from guys who don't have the track record that you can really rely on. I am not banking on Wentz hitting all time highs under this situation and I don't think it is a reasonable thing to expect, that would be difficult for any QB. You can straight up put A-Rod or any long tenured QB on this roster and I would not predict him to set new career highs in yards and TDs.

Edited May 20, 2022 by FootballZombie

[skinny21]

@FootballZombieI think that’s a fair post, and you hit on the 3 biggest concerns I have about this team - Wentz’s fit/transition, the reliance on potential (including guys returning from injury - namely Thomas and Young), and injuries (which is in large part about depth).  I have Wentz in his own category, but of course he figures pretty heavily in terms of potential as well.

 

I think this team/offense is a good fit for Wentz, but it’s a pretty significant change for him too.  I’ll be curious to see if Turner goes pass happy to speed up the experience for Wentz (apples to oranges, but he had TH throwing a lot out of the gate), or if he dials it back a bit (as he did after the bye week last year).

 

There are reasons for some optimism on the ‘potential’ front.  Davis should progress, Dotson is about as pro-ready as you get.  Ditto Robinson, and he doesn’t need to be rushed (no pun intended).  Dyami has been working hard, but more importantly isn’t a guy we have to rely on.  St Juste is in a similar boat.  I think it’s fair to think Samuel will have moved past his injured hammy and be able to contribute.  Obviously we want Young and Sweat coming in like gangbusters, but last year the defense had stretches of good play w/o them.  I guess my hesitation/concern revolves mostly around Thomas’ return to form, Mathis, Wentz and Butler (or, maybe more accurately, how well we fill the void of losing Landon).

 

As to injuries, like I said, it’s mostly about depth.  We’ve got quality depth at oline, improved our rb and receiver depth, and the TE depth looks pretty good.  TH is a fine backup.  I’m not high on the backup DEs, but again, the defense did some good things with those young guys getting significant snaps.  I’d say my concern in this area centers mostly around our IDL, corner and linebacker depth.  Maybe we get lucky there - either guys stay healthy, or guys like Mathis, Mayo/Hudson/another backer, St Juste (or whoever) step up and shine… or at least perform well enough to not be a liability.

 

I’m cautiously optimistic.  I refuse to get sucked into the hope, been burned too many times, but it’s a far cry from the days of hoping for miracles - that some late rounders/UDFAs/raw early round draftees earn starting gigs and fill in all of our weakest spots.  We’ll see how it plays out I guess.  

 

[Est.1974]

4 hours ago, FootballZombie said:

wildly reliant on potential and not proven production

Good overall post, I agree with you. We have plenty of potential across the board. The staff need to find a way to realise that potential. 
 

I like the Wentz move. Personally I would have liked us to have built on that move with more proven talent. We traded for Wentz then stopped shopping. I think that will come back to hurt us. 
 

But there is no doubt we have acquired plenty of potential talent over the last 2 offseason. Could go either way.