The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Bifflog]

8 minutes ago, mistertim said:

I'm not sure why some are trying to convince people on a message board that Heinicke is just as good if not better than Trubisky, Mariota, Winson, etc when it's pretty much crystal clear that the Commanders coaching staff doesn't agree.

 

That said, if they sign any of those guys, are you really gonna be that shocked if they wind up 23rd-ish in QBR on the year?

[DJHJR86]

Just now, mistertim said:

I think the whole point is that Heinicke is basically option Z. If literally every other possibility falls through then he'd probably start by default. And it's unlikely that they won't be able to get anyone. But in the very unlikely event that it happens, then Heinicke could start.

 

Heinicke is not an option to start the season.  I am saying that if they are going to draft a ready to start rookie, why waste money on Trubisky, Winston, or Mariota, when there are cheaper options (Allen) to be the #3.  You keep thinking that I am advocating for Heinicke to start.  I'm not.  I'm advocating that Mitch Trubisky is absolutely terrible and this is backed up by advanced statistics.  A sudden change of scenery, or blaming Nagy, isn't going to change this.  Darnold was still Darnold in Carolina.  Same with Winston or Mariota.

[Jumbo]

i haven't been here much the last couple weeks and am behind in the threads and while my subject is open to anyone of course, i'm going to specifically call on @Skinsinparadise and @whateverstevemcqueen'snewnameis 😁 for their takes

 

i was talking to @TK the other day and told him i'm getting kind of stoked on malik willis the more i see on him 

 

i figure most of you guys really following this stuff have awareness of what the smarter talking heads have been saying about him, but i'll do a brief summary 

 

pros: highly praised arm strength, can throw anywhere on the field and all the way down the field with quick release, can really extends plays and move chains with feet, good football head---i.e. in presser he talked about how he loved drawing the plays of one team interviewing him and being able to identify all the  pertinent points as well as doing those of his collge team---and a leader people rally to on and off the field

 

cons: (as tk also pointed out)  played at liberty collage, so small school questions, and the almost common drawback of most such types at this point in their journey, issues with consistency in accuracy (how bad, i don't have a clear take on) and that seems to be about it cons-wise

 

also he should be available at 11, though i'm thinking his stock is going to go up as the combine moves forward

 

i was even toying  with the speculation (i know i know) that we could might get an option trade down from 11 and still get him and get an additional pick if the saints start to  drool over pickett (reasons why that's a possibility are out there from some of the better talking heads and pickett himself) and want to trade up from their #18 spot to be sure to get pickett (i know, that's a big reach)

 

but what are all ya'alls' take on willis?

 

 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

20 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

So your contention is that Dan went to Rivera and said "I hereby order you to never mention Taylor Heiniciek's name when doing interviews"?

 

Seriously? You honestly don't think it's possible that they just don't think of him at all when it comes to the starting QB situation? It has to be the more complex explanation? 

They have to keep it hush on Heineke, so he can remain the best kept secret in the NFL.  They don't want to brag on him too much or their phones will be blowing up 24/7 with trade offers.  Duh.

[zCommander]

20 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

So your contention is that Dan went to Rivera and said "I hereby order you to never mention Taylor Heiniciek's name when doing interviews"?

 

Seriously? You honestly don't think it's possible that they just don't think of him at all when it comes to the starting QB situation? It has to be the more complex explanation? 

 

Seriously? I have to explain how things work at a corp. meeting as well?

[mistertim]

1 minute ago, DJHJR86 said:

 

Heinicke is not an option to start the season.  I am saying that if they are going to draft a ready to start rookie, why waste money on Trubisky, Winston, or Mariota, when there are cheaper options (Allen) to be the #3.  You keep thinking that I am advocating for Heinicke to start.  I'm not.  I'm advocating that Mitch Trubisky is absolutely terrible and this is backed up by advanced statistics.  A sudden change of scenery, or blaming Nagy, isn't going to change this.  Darnold was still Darnold in Carolina.  Same with Winston or Mariota.

 

You won't get any argument from me that Trubisky is terrible. I agree. IMO the main differences between Trubisky and Heinicke is that Trubisky has an NFL arm and actually uses his legs.

 

I've said before that I think Trubisky only offers a moderate upgrade to Heinicke so I don't really care about him one way or the other as far as coming here (as long as we don't spend much on him and it costs no draft picks). I'm just pointing out that the Commanders coaching staff and FO seem quite sure that Heinicke isn't a legit NFL starter.

[DJHJR86]

Just now, Jumbo said:

but what are all ya'alls' take on willis?

 

Honestly, his upside is huge.  The problem is, of this QB class, I think he has the biggest potential to bust.  His completion percentage last year is kind of alarming.  His one season as a starter also concerns me.  He's a big project.  

[VirginiaVibes]

We can put all the Corral is too short and too small stuff to bed.  He is 6’1 5/8 and is 212 pounds. 

 

 

[FootballZombie]

4 minutes ago, DJHJR86 said:

  I am saying that if they are going to draft a ready to start rookie, why waste money on Trubisky, Winston, or Mariota, when there are cheaper options (Allen) to be the #3. 

 

FA is before the draft and unless you trade way up now, you can't bank on getting your QB in the draft.

 

Signing a guy in FA or trading for a guy makes all the sense in the world even if you make it redundant with a draft pick that starts down the line. It allows you to build a better offseason plan, plus depending on who you get it will greatly impact the talent your able to bring in.

 

Under no circumstance should draft day roll around and we are still siting at 11 and have done nothing to address QB.

[mistertim]

5 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

They have to keep it hush on Heineke, so he can remain the best kept secret in the NFL.  They don't want to brag on him too much or their phones will be blowing up 24/7 with trade offers.  Duh.

 

Yeah this whole "Dan told Ron to never mention Taylor Heinicke" conspiracy theory is an interesting new twist.

 

The Heinicke Hive in a nutshell:

 

[skinny21]

6 minutes ago, Jumbo said:

i haven't been here much the last couple weeks and am behind in the threads and while my subject is open to anyone of course, i'm going to specifically call on @Skinsinparadise and @whateverstevemcqueen'snewnameis 😁 for their takes

 

 

 

but what are all ya'alls' take on willis?

 

 

I’m not skinsinparadise or stevemcqueen (I couldn’t even play him on TV), but there’s one question in particular I would want answered were I the Comms FO - does his confidence (which I think is great - he seems very self assured and that can be big at the position) also come with enough humility to be a great student?  Will he be able to both handle and take in criticism (from the staff mainly) and turn around and apply himself to fixing those issues? In short, is he coachable?  Maybe a better way to put it… is he not just willing to be coached, but is he driven to be coached (if that makes sense).

 

It’s the difference between doing what is asked, and going above and beyond - seeking out criticism, constantly asking what he could have done better.  If he’s the latter, the sky is the limit IMO.  If he’s the former, I don’t think he’ll ever reach his potential.  Just my 2 cents of course.

[DJHJR86]

 

 

Kyler Murray has similar sized hands, IIRC.  This is all so meaningless.

[zCommander]

3 minutes ago, DJHJR86 said:

 

 

Kyler Murray has similar sized hands, IIRC.  This is all so meaningless.

 

Kyler Murray posted a solid hand size of 9½. So really an inch shorter than Murray. If it is meaningless then why do they even bother to measure the hand sizes?

 

Edited March 3, 2022 by zCommander

[Riggo#44]

I think hand size might be the new bench press. Daniel Jones has a 9.75" hand, fumbles constantly.

But this is still funny

[Jumbo]

talk about timing..i'm watching a dvr'd gmfb from this a.m. and mikerob is going to to a focus piece on willis, saying he may be his top pick at qb

 

i should prob wait until i actually see it to feel enthused 😁 

[RWJ]

15 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

Kyler Murray posted a solid hand size of 9½. So really an inch shorter though. If it is meaningless then why do they even bother to measure the hand sizes?

N/A

Edited March 3, 2022 by RWJ

[mistertim]

54 minutes ago, Jumbo said:

i haven't been here much the last couple weeks and am behind in the threads and while my subject is open to anyone of course, i'm going to specifically call on @Skinsinparadise and @whateverstevemcqueen'snewnameis 😁 for their takes

 

i was talking to @TK the other day and told him i'm getting kind of stoked on malik willis the more i see on him 

 

i figure most of you guys really following this stuff have awareness of what the smarter talking heads have been saying about him, but i'll do a brief summary 

 

pros: highly praised arm strength, can throw anywhere on the field and all the way down the field with quick release, can really extends plays and move chains with feet, good football head---i.e. in presser he talked about how he loved drawing the plays of one team interviewing him and being able to identify all the  pertinent points as well as doing those of his collge team---and a leader people rally to on and off the field

 

cons: (as tk also pointed out)  played at liberty collage, so small school questions, and the almost common drawback of most such types at this point in their journey, issues with consistency in accuracy (how bad, i don't have a clear take on) and that seems to be about it cons-wise

 

also he should be available at 11, though i'm thinking his stock is going to go up as the combine moves forward

 

i was even toying  with the speculation (i know i know) that we could might get an option trade down from 11 and still get him and get an additional pick if the saints start to  drool over pickett (reasons why that's a possibility are out there from some of the better talking heads and pickett himself) and want to trade up from their #18 spot to be sure to get pickett (i know, that's a big reach)

 

but what are all ya'alls' take on willis?

 

 

 

Pros are mostly what you state here. Elite athlete and runner. Huge arm. High intangibles. When his accuracy is "on" he can hit beautiful touch passes and put it right on the money.

 

For cons, in addition to what you noted, there are a couple of things that J.T. O'Sullivan pointed out in the most recent film review he did on Willis which I didn't necessarily notice, but I did after he talked about them and pointed them out. 

 

One is that Willis sometimes seems to miss very open guys. Now, this should have an asterisk next to it IMO, because we don't know for sure what the play calls for in their offensive system. So it's possible that the guys who were really open just weren't part of the progression. Still it's a bit worrying though.

 

Another is that he gets caught too often looking at the LOS and pass rushers instead of keeping his eyes downfield. That's also a bit worrying, because in the NFL that will put you in a world of trouble.

 

One last thing that I've seen is that he tends to stare down his receivers. Again, this could be more of a product of a simplified one-read-and-run system. But he doesn't really look off safeties or LBs, which is something I really like about Corral...he does a very good job of manipulating defenses with his eyes (and O'Sullivan pointed out with Corral as well).

 

None of those things are necessarily deal breakers with Willis, but I think they underscore just how raw he's likely to be coming into the NFL.

Edited March 3, 2022 by mistertim

[RWJ]

52 minutes ago, Jumbo said:

i haven't been here much the last couple weeks and am behind in the threads and while my subject is open to anyone of course, i'm going to specifically call on @Skinsinparadise and @whateverstevemcqueen'snewnameis 😁 for their takes

 

i was talking to @TK the other day and told him i'm getting kind of stoked on malik willis the more i see on him 

 

i figure most of you guys really following this stuff have awareness of what the smarter talking heads have been saying about him, but i'll do a brief summary 

 

pros: highly praised arm strength, can throw anywhere on the field and all the way down the field with quick release, can really extends plays and move chains with feet, good football head---i.e. in presser he talked about how he loved drawing the plays of one team interviewing him and being able to identify all the  pertinent points as well as doing those of his collge team---and a leader people rally to on and off the field

 

cons: (as tk also pointed out)  played at liberty collage, so small school questions, and the almost common drawback of most such types at this point in their journey, issues with consistency in accuracy (how bad, i don't have a clear take on) and that seems to be about it cons-wise

 

also he should be available at 11, though i'm thinking his stock is going to go up as the combine moves forward

 

i was even toying  with the speculation (i know i know) that we could might get an option trade down from 11 and still get him and get an additional pick if the saints start to  drool over pickett (reasons why that's a possibility are out there from some of the better talking heads and pickett himself) and want to trade up from their #18 spot to be sure to get pickett (i know, that's a big reach)

 

but what are all ya'alls' take on willis?

 

 

He has the rawest talent, physically of ALL the QBs in the draft. to me anyway, hands down.  I like Willis and think in time he can become a very good QB in the NFL.  There are connections between RR/Cam and Willis and Willis's dad and RR are supposedly have been friends for a while, so I have heard.  The one QB to keep an eye on is Ridder, I think, Jumbo.  Mayhew played with his HS coach, Wolford in Buffalo so I would think he's been promoting him to Mayhew for a while now and I like Ridder's physical abilities and he's a hard worker and very smart.  I've read articles where he is first on the field; last off.  Also, I have heard that Willis is a hard worker too.  My 2 cents.   

[Jumbo]

@RWJ  yeah, i'm looking at ridder with interest, too....of course mikerob really presented all the best stuff about the guy since he's downright stoked on him,  but the piece was solid and james palmer is close to the same level of enthusiasm saying malik had been under real pressure all season long due to o-line weaknesses but stood out for being able to make good results out of busted plays far more often that not, and that's a good thing...still, the consistent accuracy thing is big and his learning ability is something i want to find out more about too

 

 

also, rwj, mike and others have linked an rr interest in malik per him having some cam-like attributes which ron knows how to work with (another bit of a media head reach to me but who knows)

[Zim489]

I don’t think the staff can even attempt to out any eggs into next offseason basket. It’s going to be an even harder market to get into. 
 

take your swing this year. It’s your best chance. 

1 hour ago, DJHJR86 said:

 

Heinicke is not an option to start the season.  I am saying that if they are going to draft a ready to start rookie, why waste money on Trubisky, Winston, or Mariota, when there are cheaper options (Allen) to be the #3.  You keep thinking that I am advocating for Heinicke to start.  I'm not.  I'm advocating that Mitch Trubisky is absolutely terrible and this is backed up by advanced statistics.  A sudden change of scenery, or blaming Nagy, isn't going to change this.  Darnold was still Darnold in Carolina.  Same with Winston or Mariota.

And they are all still better options than Taylor. They don’t want Taylor seeing the field next year in any capacity 

1 hour ago, Jumbo said:

but what are all ya'alls' take on willis?

That he’s likely the one and only chance at an elite QB for possibly the rest of Rons tenure here and should be the swing taken. 
 

it’s a low chance but it’s the best chance they have 

[DJHJR86]

30 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

Kyler Murray posted a solid hand size of 9½. So really an inch shorter than Murray. If it is meaningless then why do they even bother to measure the hand sizes?

 

 

Mike Vick was a 8.5.  Burrow was 9.  It's meaningless in terms of how good a quarterback can play.

[Zim489]

3 minutes ago, DJHJR86 said:

 

Mike Vick was a 8.5.  Burrow was 9.  It's meaningless in terms of how good a quarterback can play.

And Vick had a massive fumbling problem. Vick had a cannon. Burrow had a good arm. I don’t know if I can have Picketts arm strength higher than 5th in this class. Go watch the senior bowl practices in the bad weather days. You can clearly see the problem with the little hands and lack of arm. Had issues driving the ball

Edited March 3, 2022 by Zim489

[HigSkin]

FWIW -

 

 

Hand size for 32 NFL starting QBs, from smallest to largest

Taysom Hill, New Orleans Saints: 8¾ inches

Joe Burrow, Cincinnati Bengals: 9
Ryan Tannehill, Tennessee Titans: 9
Jared Goff, Detroit Lions: 9

Derek Carr, Las Vegas Raiders: 9⅛
Justin Fields, Chicago Bears: 9⅛

Baker Mayfield, Cleveland Browns: 9¼
Teddy Bridgewater, Denver Broncos: 9¼
Patrick Mahomes, Kansas City Chiefs: 9¼
Jimmy Garoppolo, San Francisco 49ers: 9¼
Taylor Heinicke, Washington Commanders: 9¼

Sam Darnold, Carolina Panthers: 9⅜
Tom Brady, Tampa Bay Buccaneers: 9⅜

Zach Wilson, New York Jets: 9½
Lamar Jackson, Baltimore Ravens: 9½
Matt Ryan, Atlanta Falcons: 9½
Kyler Murray, Arizona Cardinals: 9½
Davis Mills, Houston Texans: 9½

Mac Jones, New England Patriots: 9¾
Daniel Jones, New York Giants: 9¾
Jalen Hurts, Philadelphia Eagles: 9¾

Kirk Cousins, Minnesota Vikings: 9⅞
Ben Roethlisberger, Pittsburgh Steelers: 9⅞

Tua Tagovailoa, Miami Dolphins: 10
Carson Wentz, Indianapolis Colts: 10
Trevor Lawrence, Jacksonville Jaguars: 10
Justin Herbert, Los Angeles Chargers: 10
Dak Prescott, Dallas Cowboys: 10
Matthew Stafford, Los Angeles Rams: 10

Josh Allen, Buffalo Bills: 10⅛
Aaron Rodgers, Green Bay Packers: 10⅛

Russell Wilson, Seattle Seahawks: 10¼

[RWJ]

8 minutes ago, Jumbo said:

@RWJ  yeah, i'm looking at ridder with interest, too....of course mikerob really presented all the best stuff about the guy since he's downright stoked on him,  but the piece was solid and james palmer is close to the same level of enthusiasm saying malik had been under real pressure all season long due to o-line weaknesses but stood out for being able to make good results out of busted plays far more often that not, and that's a good thing...still, the consistent accuracy thing is big and his learning ability is something i want to find out more about too

 

 

also, rwj, mike and others have linked an rr interest in malik per him having some cam-like attributes which ron knows how to work with (another bit of a media head reach to me but who knows)

All true and I agree with your assessments.  Ridder has been noted for having accuracy issues to, but many analysts have said that once the game starts, he settles in and that goes away.  That may be due in part to poor OL blocking for the QBs.  It may be the same for Willis too.  Again, there are connections to both Willis and Ridder with RR and Mayhew plus with Willis being a local player at Liberty U. we can get all the info we need up close.  With Willis's talent and hard work, I'd be thrilled if we selected him at #11 but my QB1 in this draft is Ridder from Cincy.  I do love the comparison that MikeRob gave about Willis comparing to Russell Wilson.  I thought the same thing too to some extent.  

[HigSkin]

There are so many red flags to Wentz and Orlovsky is a big fan of his.