The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[The Consigliere]

39 minutes ago, Hitman#21 said:

This isn’t true, standing said it’s was false 

If it wasn't true, and it may not be, it still should be. Your franchise is run by morons if you don't have a legit QB, and AREN'T willing to put anyone on the block to get one. I'll add the caveat that I'm not interested in old ones like Rodgers and Wilson, top tier though they be, they aren't worth selling a giant pile of future for. That's the problem, it's not the cost, it's the age of the asset being pursued. How many bridge QB's have we wasted hugely valuable assets on over the years from Boonell to Johnson to McNabb to Alex Smith, it never works, and it never works for a reason (I know there are people that disagree, like with Brad Johnson, but he was never, ever worth a top 10 pick, period, if you're trading a top 10 pick, you need to be getting a HOF, preferabbly a young one, not a Cousins like compiler). 

Edited February 18, 2022 by The Consigliere

[RWJ]

9 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I recall you saying that.

 

I've debated some on this point with some on the draft thread but my quick take is this:

 

A.  Rivera talks gleefully even recently about Cam in his prime.  He's also talked about how hard its to defend mobile QBs.  His staff was inventive when Cam entered the league, adopting Cam's college offense to the pros among other things.  

 

B.  Turner's offense IMO observation is heavy dependant on play action off of an outside zone running game.  Heavy with boots, roll outs, sweeps, misdirection coming from the backfield. If you add a mobile Qb to that formula it fits well IMO.

 

C.  the fan base is flat.  I know some argue that these fans don't have the patience for a raw QB.  IMO though Willis is the perfect QB to generate some excitment.  The best selling jersey right now in Virginia let alone Maryland is Lamar Jackson.  The most fan excitement we've had under Dan was 2012.  Granted things have to work out but in the meantime I think fans will be plenty patient for a player like Malik Willis.

 

 

Makes sense.  All that you have stated here.  Why would the Commanders on their site on twitter show who they want as their QB1 (Pickett) giving up their info.  Willis makes sense for the reasons you've stated.  Most dynamic but raw.  Selling jerseys and seats for the current and new stadium.  Knowing that we tried to trade for Trubisky last year and he's a FA this year.  He has what it takes for Turner's RPO offense.  Zampese is an excellent QB coach and might be able to get out of Trubisky what Nagy couldn't.  Just a thought.  Then there's the Cam/Willis connection.  Interesting stuff needless to say.  

[Zim489]

I still dont see a path to the Ron tenure working out unless they get lucky with the worst QB draft prospect wise in a decade. Gotta get lucky with 11.

[Darth Tater]

12 minutes ago, The Consigliere said:

You already know my take here but the evals can't be good if they have Fields and Mac Jones w/in trading distance, and pass for FitzMagic, Heinicke and a freaking LB. Great to know they had Herbert right, but they totally blew it by not selecting him with that knowledge in '20, and not taking a QB in '21 which renders the whole argument that they know what they're doing a complete non-starter. 

Fields was NOT in trading distance and I still won't be surprised if he's a bust. Mac Jones was the only one. Truth is, while he does have potential, he only led a team in 2021 that was 3 plays better than the 2020 team.

[The Consigliere]

17 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Hurney had Herbert ranked highly.  He was at Carolina at the time versus being here.

 

The idea of taking a QB in 2020, right after taking Haskins the year before when he was Dan's guy, the dude that Dan personally told anyone who would listen was the best player in that draft according to a story by a reputable reporter -- doesn't factor common FO politics especially for this club -- so in my book the criticism is based on fantasy land stuff so taking a dig at Rivera on this is simply frustration (which I get) versus anything I can take too seriously.

 

As for Fields they swung and missed.  Whomever they talked to wanted the moon, I don't know which team that was.  Keim mentioned they tried to trade for him.  Only thing that came out was the team wanted both picks and players, don't know which players but supposedly the price was high. 

 

As for Mac Jones, I gather they weren't in love with him so they got that wrong.  I liked him, not too many agreed with me on the draft thread about that though.   Rumor was they'd take Jones if he fell to their pick but they didn't like him enough to trade up for him. 

It doesn't matter. Carolina didn't let Jimmy Clausen cloud their feelings about Cam Newton, and as you love to remind me, the Cardinals didn't like Josh Rosen get in the way of targeting Kyler Murray. If you have a chance for a franchise QB, and you don't have one on your roster, you take them. Doesn't matter that Haskins was on the roster, at all. Haskins had proven nothing whatsoever in '19 other than that he had the potential to not be complete garbage. He showed signs that he had the potential for competence, but never signs that he was better than that, and as we know now, he was a "last one in, first one out" guy, and the first second you notice that, THE FIRST, you have to be out on the QB, and you sure as hell can't let such a QB block you from targeting a legit option. Haskins was a 2nd round graded QB (3rd in some parts apparently) who climbed in a bad class. Tua and Herbert and Burrow were top 1-5 selections in a good to average class. It was obvious. 

 

As for '21. What's the moon? Seriously? IF they're asking for our '21 bust, and our '22 (I'm being half sarcastic, it was more a stupid pick than a bust, for now) so what? Getting a QB ranked 1b for the '21 class for two years for two firsts is a no brainer, two firsts and a player is also a no brainer, a day 2 pick and Chase, yes, I still do it. What is they're version of the moon? To my mind they simply don't understand the value of QB's. Hell our own fanbase doesn't. They still think trading for RGIII was stupid. It wasn't. You hit on RGIII, the picks lost are irrelevant, you miss, then you suck, and eventually try again. We hit on Cousins which created a weird, exceptionally rare alternate road. The RGIII trade was never stupid in terms of his value, as understood at the time, complain about the eval, and the poor scouting of Wilson, sure, do that, but trading a pile of firsts for a QB that's a legit franchise QB prospect? Yes, yes again, yes tomorrow and yes the next year and always. You do it till you have him period. The teams that don't have these guys are irrelevant. We don't have to just look at ourselves, we can look at Buffalo and Miami. Twin stories of teams that road high on HOF QB's in the eighties and nineties, and then fell to total irrelevance for decades. One finally found his replacement twenty years later and boom, just two years later they're legit Super Bowl contenders. 

 

I think they fundamentally just don't understand QB value AT ALL, they may be scouting them well, but that's it, they don't understand the value of the position. The way they played the Cousins issue, and the way they went after Alex Smith instead of long term solutions, the way they've played the draft. It doesn't seem as if anyone in place no matter when we look, gets it, at all. Now we dumpster dive in a BAD QB draft for the 2nd time in four years because of just how badly we don't get this, and then fans will again, blame the idea of drafting a QB, instead of the problem of having a team that's incompetent in terms of handling the position and addressing it properly. Mark my words, we will see more of the same, and more whining about building the lines, and stop wasting picks on bust QB's if we draft one again and he busts (which will be higher than 50% chance in my view). 

Edited February 18, 2022 by The Consigliere

[Rufus T Firefly]

2 hours ago, Chris 44 said:

Would trade "almost anyone'. If that includes Chase I wonder who the "almost anyone" could be? Terry McLaurin, Jonathan Allen, Troy Apke? That's about the only ones I can think of that they might not want to part with.  

Apke was just for a little humor.

Apke's a UFA. Though obviously you'd just Franchise Tag him and then deal him.

 

If you dare. 

 

Edited February 18, 2022 by Rufus T Firefly

[ExoDus84]

2 hours ago, Zim489 said:

Trubs are all the exact same to me. All of them are just a temporary if necessary bridge

 

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Well good news then for you is if Keim is right, Ron absolutely sees them as a bridge.

 

Trubisky is a bridge, alright.

 

 

[Redskins 2021]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Keim latest podcast today. 

 

A.  He doesn't think Jimmy G would cost a first rounder.  Carolina can't give Jimmy G a nice contract because they are stuck with Darnold's 18 million plus on the cap

 

B.  They have many targets are Qbs, Jimmy G isn't plan A.   But if they fail elsewhere they'd be interested in him but they won't break the bank for him

 

C.  He does think there is still fighting chance Carr could get traded because of the c

 

D.  He believes they would be interested in Watson if the charges are dropped.  He doubled down that they'd need to talk him into coming here, in the past it was a no from Watson as far as coming here

 

E.  Wilson is a target.  But doubled down Seattle needs a QB.  He mentioned if Seattle loads up on picks maybe they could trade for Watson 

 

F.  They wouldn't see Jimmy G as a long term solution.  He knows the Steelers are in the mix for Jimmy G. 

 

G.  They would take Pickett at 11 if he fell there.  Why?  Experience-maturity.  

 

H.  I've been waiting for Keim to bring something new if anything post Senior Bowl to see if anything changed.  Finally.  So here is something new, he says "Malik Willis is intriguing as well."  he then also said a few minutes later "he's intriguing to say the least."  He goes they know they have to pair him with a stop gap. 

I could see Seattle taken the 3 first from eagles and then sending it for Deshawn. Still can't see Watson getting traded.

 

Did he beleave we would give Jimmyg an extension if we get him.

Edited February 18, 2022 by Redskins 2021

[Zim489]

27 minutes ago, The Consigliere said:

I think they fundamentally just don't understand QB value AT ALL

I think they value it but misunderstand the value in difference between decent and elite. I think the league as a whole mis-values it. Too many in the league still feel you can win with a mediocre QB and great team and while that isnt fundamentally wrong its just too many things to go right to make it happen. Near impossible on a year over year basis. Too many coaches think of one year segments and lack foresight on a multi year process. Ron IMO is the prime example of that right now. 

[Skinsinparadise]

58 minutes ago, The Consigliere said:

It doesn't matter. Carolina didn't let Jimmy Clausen cloud their feelings about Cam Newton, and as you love to remind me, the Cardinals didn't like Josh Rosen get in the way of targeting Kyler Murray.

 

Apples to oranges.  Clausen was a mid 2nd round pick.  That would be like saying we can't take a QB in 2023 because we took Ridder in the mid 2nd.  

 

The Cardinals had the first pick in the draft in 2019.  Murray looked like a can't miss prospect.  Rosen got off to a rough start including with questions about his work ethic.

 

Ironically its come out that they would have taken Burrow if they had the first pick in the draft.  I gather they talked Dan into that.  So apples to apples to the Cardinals they would have done exactly the same thing that you are criticizing them for not doing. Apparently they weren't high enough on Herbert to go through the trouble of convincing Dan to let go of his guy.

 

They only reason why I give you a hard time about Rosen has nothing to do about you getting it wrong with him but because of reminding you how emotionally you sold your point about him and did so with total convinction where anyone who sees things different is wildly wrong.   Like its binary cut and dry decision with no nuance or context that matters to the discussion. 

 

You are doing it here again IMO emotionally.  It's hard for me to believe that as a fan for this team for this long that you think its a piece of cake for a new coach to talk Dan into discarding his QB right from the jump.    Heck the last teacher's pet Qb that Dan had, RG3, Jay couldn't even talk Dan out of keeping him on the bench in 2014 after coming back from his injury that season -- that's 2 years deep into bad play from RG3 and Dan's still hanging on.  And you think Ron can get Dan to move on from Haskins from the jump just like that?

 

58 minutes ago, The Consigliere said:

 

As for '21. What's the moon? Seriously? IF they're asking for our '21 bust, and our '22 (I'm being half sarcastic, it was more a stupid pick than a bust, for now) so what? Getting a QB ranked 1b for the '21 class for two years for two firsts is a no brainer, two firsts and a player is also a no brainer, a day 2 pick and Chase, yes, I still do it.

 

Don't know.  Just know they wanted a ton of picks and at least one major player.  I gather if they thought that Fields was Burrow level good, they'd have pulled the trigger.  I like Fields better than most but he hasn't exactly lit the world on fire his rookie season -- so the outrage about this is a bit premature, lets see how it plays out.  A Bears client of mine would laugh at this discussion, he already thinks Fields is a bust.  I don't think he will bust.  i like Fields but I am reserved on the idea that they missed out on a lifetime opportunity and there was no price too big for him.  Will see.

 

Too bad they couldn't trade within the NFC East with the Giants but apparently Mara and Dan hate each other.

 

58 minutes ago, The Consigliere said:

 

I think they fundamentally just don't understand QB value AT ALL, they may be scouting them well, but that's it, they don't understand the value of the position. The way they played the Cousins issue, and the way they went after Alex Smith instead of long term solutions, the way they've played the draft. It doesn't seem as if anyone in place no matter when we look, gets it, at all. Now we dumpster dive in a BAD QB draft for the 2nd time in four years because of just how badly we don't get this, and then fans will again, blame the idea of drafting a QB, instead of the problem of having a team that's incompetent in terms of handling the position and addressing it properly. Mark my words, we will see more of the same, and more whining about building the lines, and stop wasting picks on bust QB's if we draft one again and he busts (which will be higher than 50% chance in my view). 

 

Much of what you mentioned happened before this regime.  Bruce Allen was a moron. 

 

As far as Rivera, he's basically screaming that this is a QB driven league.   He clearly gets it.  He swung for Fields, swung for Stafford and missed.  Based on reports, they would have had to signficantly outbid the Rams for Stafford to get him, I gather then three #1 picks because they wanted to send Stafford to where he wanted to go.

 

If it makes you feel better they seem willing to give up three 1's and change for name that top 10 QB.  You said they don't get the value of a QB.   The bigger concern with some here is do they have any limits right now as to what aren't they willing to pay.  They basically have a help wanted ad out right now saying we will outbid any team for a QB. 

Edited February 18, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Koolblue13]

1 hour ago, mistertim said:

 

Yeah, how many teams have to be desperate to get rid of a guy before we stop thinking he's a good idea for us?

2? Turns, Mariota, Wentz, Winston? 

[Riggo#44]

 

[Skinsinparadise]

30 minutes ago, Redskins 2021 said:

I could see Seattle taken the 3 first from eagles and then sending it for Deshawn. Still can't see Watson getting traded.

 

Did he beleave we would give Jimmyg an extension if we get him.

 

There are three consistent themes that the local reporters and the national reporters agree on.  And I've heard it now so many times its beaten in my head.  And some here clearly have heard and read similar things.

 

A.  They really really really really want a 10 QB type.  And they want him really really really bad.  And they are basically telegraphing to everyone who will listen they will likely outbid any team.

 

B.  They do not want Heinicke to even be the bridge starter.

 

C.  If they can't get a top QB -- plan B is to get a veteran QB who is better than Heinicke.  And likely pair that QB up with a rookie drafted fairly high.

 

D.  They'd take Pickett if he fell to 11 assuming they still have the pick.  not sure if they love him enough to trade up.  Looks like Willis is a possibiity. 

 

Some here seem to think Rivera prefers plan C not A.  But that just comes off as just a frustration based shot at Rivera versus matching any narrative considering EVERYTHING points to he wants to shoot as high as possible at QB. 

 

As for Jimmy G, not sure what they'd do as far as extending him if they landed him.  Keim has been vague on that.    Personally I hope its not Jimmy G.  But if that's what they do I know it isn't because its Plan A.  There has been no message that's vague on this.  It's been billboard level almost over the top as to them wanting an A list QB.  The idea that they actually prefer a B-C list guy, who clearly won't drive any excitement with fans, is beyond comical.

Edited February 18, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Darth Tater]

32 minutes ago, The Consigliere said:

It doesn't matter. Carolina didn't let Jimmy Clausen cloud their feelings about Cam Newton, and as you love to remind me, the Cardinals didn't like Josh Rosen get in the way of targeting Kyler Murray. If you have a chance for a franchise QB, and you don't have one on your roster, you take them. Doesn't matter that Haskins was on the roster, at all. Haskins had proven nothing whatsoever in '19 other than that he had the potential to not be complete garbage. He showed signs that he had the potential for competence, but never signs that he was better than that, and as we know now, he was a "last one in, first one out" guy, and the first second you notice that, THE FIRST, you have to be out on the QB, and you sure as hell can't let such a QB block you from targeting a legit option. Haskins was a 2nd round graded QB (3rd in some parts apparently) who climbed in a bad class. Tua and Herbert and Burrow were top 1-5 selections in a good to average class. It was obvious. 

 

As for '21. What's the moon? Seriously? IF they're asking for our '21 bust, and our '22 (I'm being half sarcastic, it was more a stupid pick than a bust, for now) so what? Getting a QB ranked 1b for the '21 class for two years for two firsts is a no brainer, two firsts and a player is also a no brainer, a day 2 pick and Chase, yes, I still do it. What is they're version of the moon? To my mind they simply don't understand the value of QB's. Hell our own fanbase doesn't. They still think trading for RGIII was stupid. It wasn't. You hit on RGIII, the picks lost are irrelevant, you miss, then you suck, and eventually try again. We hit on Cousins which created a weird, exceptionally rare alternate road. The RGIII trade was never stupid in terms of his value, as understood at the time, complain about the eval, and the poor scouting of Wilson, sure, do that, but trading a pile of firsts for a QB that's a legit franchise QB prospect? Yes, yes again, yes tomorrow and yes the next year and always. You do it till you have him period. The teams that don't have these guys are irrelevant. We don't have to just look at ourselves, we can look at Buffalo and Miami. Twin stories of teams that road high on HOF QB's in the eighties and nineties, and then fell to total irrelevance for decades. One finally found his replacement twenty years later and boom, just two years later they're legit Super Bowl contenders. 

 

I think they fundamentally just don't understand QB value AT ALL, they may be scouting them well, but that's it, they don't understand the value of the position. The way they played the Cousins issue, and the way they went after Alex Smith instead of long term solutions, the way they've played the draft. It doesn't seem as if anyone in place no matter when we look, gets it, at all. Now we dumpster dive in a BAD QB draft for the 2nd time in four years because of just how badly we don't get this, and then fans will again, blame the idea of drafting a QB, instead of the problem of having a team that's incompetent in terms of handling the position and addressing it properly. Mark my words, we will see more of the same, and more whining about building the lines, and stop wasting picks on bust QB's if we draft one again and he busts (which will be higher than 50% chance in my view). 

Haskins rookie year had shown some promise, Clausen's rookie year didn't have any promise. Cam was pretty much the Burrow of 2011 and Burrow would have been the guy had the Skins held the first pick. Kyler Murray was pretty much the Burrow of 2019. Klif's only good year as a college coach was with Mahomes.

 

Had Alex Smith leg not been broken like it was, the argument now would be over how long should his extension be. Whether to take a flyer pick this year or wait till 2023 to go hard.

[VirginiaVibes]

At this point I don't think Washington local beat reporters know much - not about what is going on with the QB situation, who Ron or thr front office lieks, nothing.

 

It was glaring to me that not a single beat reporter knew that Pete Hoener was retiring nor that Juan Castillo was replacing him. 

[RWJ]

8 minutes ago, VirginiaVibes said:

At this point I don't think Washington local beat reporters know much - not about what is going on with the QB situation, who Ron or thr front office lieks, nothing.

 

It was glaring to me that not a single beat reporter knew that Pete Hoener was retiring nor that Juan Castillo was replacing him. 

Looking at Castillo's track record as a TE coach doesn't too impressive to me but gotta trust RR.

[Skinsinparadise]

11 minutes ago, VirginiaVibes said:

At this point I don't think Washington local beat reporters know much - not about what is going on with the QB situation, who Ron or thr front office lieks, nothing.

 

It was glaring to me that not a single beat reporter knew that Pete Hoener was retiring nor that Juan Castillo was replacing him. 

 

Finlay was talking about it on the radio today.  It's not really though a sexy story to break.

 

Keim in particular has nailed a ton over the years especially in the context of off season targets that ended up playing out.  Some of those specific examples have been brought up many times.  It's not a new rodeo as far as seeing whether he gets things right.    Most of the local reporters from what I observed aren't in the loop.  Keim and to a lesser extent Standig from what i observed are.    To your point about national reporters, maybe the edge Keim and Standig enjoy are center on the fact that they actually work for national outfits. 

 

National reporters often outscoop local reporters when its agent based stories -- like someone resigning and especially trades/FA.

 

I just post stuff I hear whether its from podcasts and also national reporters stuff like Breer.  People can believe or not believe guys like Keim, Breer, etc, that's obviously up to them. 

 

Ironically the national reporters and local reporters though are very in synch with the QB narrative.   It's not like the locals are saying something and the national reporters are saying something else.  Silver, Garafolo, Breer have all in different ways echoed some of these same discussion points about how they are looking at QBs this off season.

Edited February 18, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Redskins 2021]

I dont think they trade him but it sounds like Radiers are thinking twice about giving Carr a 40 million dollar extension.

 

I don't think he plays out the year on a one year deal, but if he sits out training camp they may trade him. Does not fit are time frame.

Edited February 18, 2022 by Redskins 2021

[NickyJ]

I still stand by my previous statement: Step 1: Acquire Wentz for pennies. Step 2: Acquire Nick Foles at all costs. Step 3: Wentz tears his COVIDCL. Step 4: Nick Foles gets Super Bowl MVP.

Edited February 18, 2022 by NickyJ

[London Kev]

The more I read and think about it, the more I think we're going to end up with Trubisky or Mariota and a 1st/2nd round rookie.

 

I think that Rodgers, Wilson and Carr probably stay where they are, although there is an outside chance that someone trades for them using picks and a QB. As we can't include a QB in our bid, we probably get rejected.

 

Watson is almost certainly an untouchable for this team. He may get cleared of all charges but we can't count on that happening any time soon, and even then he may not want to come here.

 

Garoppolo's price is too high. He is better than Trubisky/Mariota IMO, but the difference in quality isn't worth the difference in price. He's probably going to cost a 2nd and want a big contract.

 

That leaves us with the FA QBs. I think that as we were heavily rumoured to have pursued Trubisky last year and he's had a year learning from Allen, he must still be on our list. We would still have all of our draft picks to take a rookie and could probably get a bit creative and move back a bit to accumulate more.

 

This is what I think will end up happening, not what I actually want to happen.

[mistertim]

1 hour ago, ExoDus84 said:

 

 

Trubisky is a bridge, alright.

 

 

Well, to be fair...at least that bridge had the capacity for being able to do something. Heinicke on the other hand...

 

[Califan007 The Constipated]

 

Note: categories are only based on regular season winning percentage as starter, not on actual QB talent. Don't get it twisted lol...

 

During Snyder's tenure as owner (QBs we drafted are in burgundy):

 

The Perfect (3 starts)

T. Collins    1.000

 

The Winners 

A. Smith      .688

B. Johnson  .630

T. Banks      .571

Wuerffel       .500

 

The Almost Winners 

Heinicke     .467

Cousins      .465

S. Brunell   .455

 

The Good OK

Matthews    .429

Ramsey      .417

RG3            .400

 

The Bad 

Campbell     .385

McNabb       .385

Grossman    .375

J. Johnson   .333

 

The Ugly 

K. Allen       .250

Haskins       .231

Hasselbeck  .200

 

The Vomit-Inducing (27 starts)

J. George    .143

C. McCoy    .143

Keenum      .125

Fitzpatrick   .000

G. Gilbert    .000

Sanchez     .000

J. Beck       .000

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Zim489]

I still and will always think Beck should have played the entire season for us in 2011. 

[NickyJ]

1 minute ago, Zim489 said:

I still and will always think Beck should have played the entire season for us in 2011. 

I can't tell if you're joking and I'm really scared now.

[Zim489]

3 minutes ago, NickyJ said:

I can't tell if you're joking and I'm really scared now.

If youre entering your season with John Beck and Rex Grossman as your QBs you know you need to tank. Start the worst QB all year