The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Hogs86]

Commanders head coach Ron Rivera has not name a starter for Week 17 and it feels like a safe bet that someone else will be picking the quarterback in 2024, so there’s plenty of unknowns in front of Howell, Brissett and the rest of the Commanders. One known for Howell is that he has a veteran teammate willing to help him navigate a rough time.

[SoCalSkins]

1 hour ago, CobraCommander said:

We broke another players confidence and think it’s funny. I really hope we hire a competent GM.

At this point dark humor is all that’s left to entertain us.
 

The brutality of this fan base is not for the weak. 
 

But once we get a guy that performs consistently at a high level, he will be the most loved player ever. 

[skinsfan66]

5 hours ago, dyst said:

That’s what happens when you hired Panthers and Lions retreads. 

Carolina's newest retread and former no.1 pick and QB Young will be on the market soon?

Lion's former retread Stafford won a SB with a real team and coach.  

Just saying?

[skinsfan66]

4 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Do you think they can't do both in an off season?

 

We've had good O lines before.  Actually it feels like torture under Ron because he dismantled the O line.  But if i had to pick one unit that has been mostly good during Dan's era its the O line.  Yet we sucked.

 

It would be hard to find anyone here who complained more about Ron's crap job on the O line than me.

 

But I got no doubt, we can build up this O line and yet struggle to find the QB and stink.  The reason why i got no doubt is we lived that movie for the past 25 years plus.

We won 3 SB's with great OL's and a not so great QB. It could happen because it did. 3 of the best WR's, 2 Top RB's and a Top D. While I dou't you win anything with a Top QB and no line or others.

[method man]

2 minutes ago, skinsfan66 said:

We won 3 SB's with great OL's and a not so great QB. It could happen because it did. 3 of the best WR's, 2 Top RB's and a Top D. While I dou't you win anything with a Top QB and no line or others.

This isn’t the 80s anymore

[Conn]

15 minutes ago, skinsfan66 said:

Carolina's newest retread and former no.1 pick and QB Young will be on the market soon?

Lion's former retread Stafford won a SB with a real team and coach.  

Just saying?

The post was about coaches and FO folk who were not only from bad organizations, but were the leaders and decision-makers in those bad organizations. Predictable outcome. 

[skinsfan66]

3 hours ago, RWJ said:

Not a JJ McCarthy fan.  He's a early second rounder to me.  Other than that, spot on.   

 He is playing for a National Championship and why is the next Mahomes and USC are at 7-5 and playing in the s...Bowl?  Is it because there is no team around him? J.J. has the better players around him I guess that helps?  

[Skinsinparadise]

26 minutes ago, skinsfan66 said:

We won 3 SB's with great OL's and a not so great QB. It could happen because it did. 3 of the best WR's, 2 Top RB's and a Top D. While I dou't you win anything with a Top QB and no line or others.

 

How can a team with a generational LT mostly suck?   Heck often with a great booked end RT Moses and a pro bowler RT.  Or Samuel and Jansen with a staked O line and heck with Portis and a big time running game and at times elite defense.

 

Your point is no player alone can make a team.  That's true.  But its not really even a debate as to how a QB can change a franchise not a LT or name that other spot.

 

 

[skinsfan66]

19 minutes ago, Conn said:

The post was about coaches and FO folk who were not only from bad organizations, but were the leaders and decision-makers in those bad organizations. Predictable outcome. 

Okay, Sorry a good organization would have drafted Stroud instead and not listen to experts and hype who were wrong about Young. Hope we pick the right people to lead this team and not another castoff.

[Daniel.redskins]

2 hours ago, CobraCommander said:

We broke another players confidence and think it’s funny. I really hope we hire a competent GM.

I don't think it's funny. I'm actually hurting a bit because I'm such a big Howell fan. I feel bad for him. Crappy oline and play calling. Not all his fault.

 

But the honest truth is that he has struggled anticipating routes. The tipped passes are hurting as well. We now have a shot at a prospect who is bigger, stronger, and faster. 

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, skinsfan66 said:

Beathard is in the HOF because he could build a team. His build mostly was the from the Draft always trading down to find sleepers, FA's from USFL, traded for his QB Joe T. while in Washington and others that was his way. Jack K. left him alone and because they were the experts which is the opposite of Snyder.

 

 

I know i lived through it.  I was a fantatical football fan even back then albiet much younger. 

 

1 hour ago, skinsfan66 said:

 

Some builds recently with or without succeeding starting with those 4 and top QB's.

Lions, Mattew S. went on to win a SB with LA, he had no team around him with the lions for years or coaches, then they went and built a team around the QB that was busting with LA.  

 

 

Pre Stafford, the Rams actually went to a SB with first round pick -- first pick of the draft Jared Goff.   They thought Stafford would be an improvement.  Arguably he only was for one season.  Goff played well for the Lions.    5th in QBR last season.  11th this season.

 

Neither team waited for the QB and then built the roster later on. And they lived to tell the tale.  McVay had Goff from the jump then switched to Stafford. Lions did the reverse and went Stafford and then Goff.

 

The Dolphins didn't trade for Tyeek Hill and draft Waddle and then draft Tua.  They did it in the reverse way.  And lived to tell the tale.

 

Grab the hard thing when you can.    When you are picking first in the draft like the Lions and Rams did eons ago you take a QB not a LT.  The LT is easier to find not the QB.  Grab the harder thing to find first when you got an opportunity to do it.  If the QB has to wait a season or two for a supporting cast, that's fine. 

 

 

1 hour ago, skinsfan66 said:

 

The Bengals have their Top QB but he has injuries that keep him off the field to often. Won 5 games so far with maybe best trio of WR's in the league.

 

 

 QBs get hurt it happens.  Before that the Benglas won more playoffs games in like 2 years than in most of their history.  He's turned that team's prospects around.  It's not a debatable point.

 

1 hour ago, skinsfan66 said:

 

The Bears how many games won with a Top QB fields and no others? Added top WR, D and others... Playing better but Is he on his way out for Caleb?

 

 

I think Fields is closer to a bust than a top QB.  And he wasn't a top 5 pick.

 

1 hour ago, skinsfan66 said:

 

The Eagles D is not letting them win. And a top OF and QB cannot overcome it at the moment and look like they are fading.

 

 

Hurts was a 2nd round pick.  They are about to win their division again and were in the SB last year.  Not sure what your point is though?  Is it the QB alone doesn't make the team.  Sure who is arguing otherwise?

 

But the QB is the most important component.  I suspect you will be dissppointed in this next regime.  If the reports are true that they want an analytics-new school GM -- i don't think you are going to get this lets build an O line and worry about the QB later approach.  Because its not how from what I noticed how analytics types think -- they seem obsessed with QBs and you can't win easily without one.

Edited December 25, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Conn]

18 minutes ago, skinsfan66 said:

Okay, Sorry a good organization would have drafted Stroud instead and not listen to experts and hype who were wrong about Young. Hope we pick the right people to lead this team and not another castoff.

The owner (Tepper, aka Snyder 2.0) forced the Young pick. The staff wanted Stroud. So, yeah, they should have. 

[skinsfan66]

2 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

How can a team with a generational LT mostly suck?   Heck often with a great booked end RT Moses and a pro bowler RT.  Or Samuel and Jansen with a staked O line and heck with Portis and a big time running game and at times elite defense.

 

Your point is no player alone can make a team.  That's true.  But its not really even a debate as to how a QB can change a franchise not a LT or name that other spot.

 

 

My point mostly was you can win with a good team and a average QB too.  I agree Top Qb is better value then a LT but it is not the only way to go with our pick.  Our pick has a lot of trade value with our holes to fill. Never thought of Jansen as a Top RT or Moses while he was here hurt, Samuels yes, how was are DEF? Kirk never took us to the promise land and just left another hole we could not fill. 

[Conn]

Drafting the QB while you actually have the high pick to do it is a similar philosophy to going for 2 as early as you can when you know you’ll need to—gives you more information and if you get it earlier, makes future decisions easier. 

[kingdaddy]

1 hour ago, skinsfan66 said:

Beathard is in the HOF because he could build a team. His build mostly was the from the Draft always trading down to find sleepers, FA's from USFL, traded for his QB Joe T. while in Washington and others that was his way. Jack K. left him alone and because they were the experts which is the opposite of Snyder.

 

Didn't Beathard make a killing in Plan B free agency???? I remember a bunch of our unheralded guys being plan B signings.

[kingdaddy]

55 minutes ago, method man said:

This isn’t the 80s anymore

Doesn't matter the decade....Purdy is to the Niners what Rypien was for the SB champion Redskins who had a great offensive line, defensive line and very good skill position guys. This years Niners are built in the same mold. McCaffery and Riggins both running wild and stacking TD's. The Niners with Kittle, Deebo and Aiyuk are similar to Clark, Sanders, Monk and Didier. Defensively, both teams have comparable defensive lines and even secondaries. The Skins LB's were tremendous with Andre Collins, Wilbur Marshall and Kurt Gouveia. 

Doesn't matter what decade it is, the formula is still the same, win in the trenches and fill in the rest. Purdy is good but he wouldn't be very good on our team. 

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

4 minutes ago, skinsfan66 said:

My point mostly was you can win with a good team and an average QB too.  I agree Top Qb is better value than a LT but it is not the only way to go with our pick.  Our pick has a lot of trade value with our holes to fill. Never thought of Jansen as a Top RT or Moses while he was here hurt, Samuels yes, how was are DEF? Kirk never took us to the promise land and just left another hole we could not fill. 

In the last 5 years, these are the teams with the most wins:

 

Chiefs - Mahomes

Bills - Allen 

Ravens - Jackson

Packers - Rodgers 

Niners - QB committee so they support your point 

Cowboys - Dak

Saints - Brees

Seahawks - Russ

Eagles - Hurts

 

Almost all of those teams revolve around their franchise QB. It is really is that important if you want to win sustainably. And you’ll find varying OLine quality between those teams as well. 

[Skinsinparadise]

14 minutes ago, skinsfan66 said:

My point mostly was you can win with a good team and a average QB too.  I agree Top Qb is better value then a LT but it is not the only way to go with our pick.  Our pick has a lot of trade value with our holes to fill. Never thought of Jansen as a Top RT or Moses while he was here hurt, Samuels yes, how was are DEF? Kirk never took us to the promise land and just left another hole we could not fill. 

 

We had a killer running game and defense for most of Gregg Williams tenure.  Gibbs had a good O line when he returned.  Yeah Jansen was very good.  Samuel was a pro bowler.  Randy Thomas was really good.  We had Tre Johnson.  In a more recent era Scheriff.

 

For all the bad during Dan's era if I had to pick one unit that was mostly good during those 20 plus years it was the O line.  And yeah we tried to win with average Qb play like Brunell.  Even JC for his faults was average for some of his tenure.

 

And if you read my posts for months on this thread, its mostly me whining about this O line.  What I find damning about Ron's regime is he dismantled a good O line.  So I do value the O line.

 

But I am not in the camp of a good O line with average QB play takes us to the promised land.   Heck I can easily argue that Kirk was above average and had both a good O line and at times weapons.  But it was a 9-7 team.

 

To escape the vicious cycle of 8-8, 9-8 and a playoff appearance once every 4 years and we are one and done because Todd Collins, Mark Brunell or even Kirk will outduel the Aaron Rodgers' of this world in the playoffs -- we need off of that formula and ultimately need to find a QB. 

 

The idea of don't worry so much about the QB build the roster feels like a rerun of most of the regimes prior to Rivera.   Hecl Rivera too initially but he was incompetent running that formula.  That was sort of the script.

Edited December 25, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[skinsfan66]

1 hour ago, method man said:

This isn’t the 80s anymore

What do the 80's have to do with it? Just get the right players, coaches, Talent evaluators is what I want and there is no perfect way to go.?  

[Skinsinparadise]

12 minutes ago, kingdaddy said:

Doesn't matter the decade....Purdy is to the Niners what Rypien was for the SB champion Redskins who had a great offensive line, defensive line and very good skill position guys. This years Niners are built in the same mold. McCaffery and Riggins both running wild and stacking TD's. The Niners with Kittle, Deebo and Aiyuk are similar to Clark, Sanders, Monk and Didier. Defensively, both teams have comparable defensive lines and even secondaries. The Skins LB's were tremendous with Andre Collins, Wilbur Marshall and Kurt Gouveia. 

Doesn't matter what decade it is, the formula is still the same, win in the trenches and fill in the rest. Purdy is good but he wouldn't be very good on our team. 

 

49ers are an outlier.  But heck we crushed them when Nick Mullens was playing QB for that stellar supporting cast.  Trey Lance couldn't even find the field.

 

Jimmy G had sort of an Alex Smith run with them.  He was an efficient QB albiet not great.  Sort of a poor man's Jared Goff.   I know most of this think Purdy is just a guy.  And his sick numbers and MVP talk is just still about a system QB. 

 

Heck I recall some here thought Kirk was just a system QB and benefitted from Jay.  And Colt could have a similar career if given a chance.  That clearly hasn't proven to be true.

 

My point maybe all those people who say Brock Purdy is a really good QB are actually right.    Bruce Arians talks in his QB book that the number one thing for a QB to be successful is vision-field processing.  And Purdy from what i've heard both as a player and as student is special in that department.

 

https://www.nbcsportsbayarea.com/nfl/san-francisco-49ers/report-purdy-had-elite-score-in-pre-draft-cognitive-test/1463111/

However, The Athletic's Matt Barrows recently spoke with Brandon Ally, the co-founder of the S2 Cognition test, a test given to draft prospects that measures how quickly players process information. In Barrows' article, it was revealed how elite Purdy's test score was leading up to the 2022 NFL Draft and which quarterbacks his information processing compared to. 

"Purdy landed in the mid-90s on something called the S2 Cognition test, a score you might consider Drew Brees-like," Barrows wrote. "Which is to say, it's elite."

"The game will never be too fast for Brock, I'll say that," Ally told Barrows. "I don't think he'll ever have trouble adjusting."

Ally added the results from the test are predictive and can forecast whether a quarterback will be successful in the NFL as well as predict what his passer rating might be.

Edited December 25, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[kingdaddy]

1 minute ago, skinsfan66 said:

What do the 80's have to do with it? Just get the right players, coaches, Talent evaluators is what I want and there is no perfect way to go.?  

I'd take the 85 Bears over any team from this decade. God I'd love to see the 85 Bears vs Tom Brady just to see him get hit and fear for his life. 

[method man]

4 minutes ago, skinsfan66 said:

What do the 80's have to do with it? Just get the right players, coaches, Talent evaluators is what I want and there is no perfect way to go.?  

This is in response to your philosophy on team building not the quality of front office and coaching personnel 

[rumplestilskin]

1 minute ago, kingdaddy said:

I'd take the 85 Bears over any team from this decade. God I'd love to see the 85 Bears vs Tom Brady just to see him get hit and fear for his life. 

He would probably still find a way to win though.

[kingdaddy]

2 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

49ers are an outlier.  But heck we crushed them when Nick Mullens was playing QB for that stellar supporting cast.  Trey Lance couldn't even find the field.

 

Jimmy G had sort of an Alex Smith run with them.  He was an efficient QB albiet not great.  Sort of a poor man's Jared Goff.   I know most of this think Purdy is just a guy.  And his sick numbers and MVP talk is just still about a system QB. 

 

Heck I recall some here thought Kirk was just a system QB and benefitted from Jay.  And Colt could have a similar career if given a chance.  That clearly hasn't proven to be true.

 

My point maybe all those people who say Brock Purdy is a really good QB are actually right.    Bruce Arians talks in his QB book that the number one thing for a QB to be successful is vision-field processing.  And Purdy from what i've heard both as a player and as student is special in that department.

 

https://www.nbcsportsbayarea.com/nfl/san-francisco-49ers/report-purdy-had-elite-score-in-pre-draft-cognitive-test/1463111/

However, The Athletic's Matt Barrows recently spoke with Brandon Ally, the co-founder of the S2 Cognition test, a test given to draft prospects that measures how quickly players process information. In Barrows' article, it was revealed how elite Purdy's test score was leading up to the 2022 NFL Draft and which quarterbacks his information processing compared to. 

"Purdy landed in the mid-90s on something called the S2 Cognition test, a score you might consider Drew Brees-like," Barrows wrote. "Which is to say, it's elite."

"The game will never be too fast for Brock, I'll say that," Ally told Barrows. "I don't think he'll ever have trouble adjusting."

Ally added the results from the test are predictive and can forecast whether a quarterback will be successful in the NFL as well as predict what his passer rating might be.

Good stuff, and I think Purdy is a pretty good QB but so was Rypien. Both are/were better because of their teams that theyr'e on right? Just make the plays the coaches call and don't be a hero. Purdy has an all star cast around him on offense same as Ryp did. I always love this debate because the pro-stud QB folks are certainly right but there are exceptions to how to win and my argument has always been that finding the franchise QB is just too hard to count on so make sure you build what you can which is a great roster.....while trying to find the franchise QB. 

Wonder how Sam did on the cognitive test?

3 minutes ago, rumplestilskin said:

He would probably still find a way to win though.

Maybe, but I doubt it. The 85 Bears are the best team I've ever seen.....just a nasty defense.

[RWJ]

56 minutes ago, skinsfan66 said:

 He is playing for a National Championship and why is the next Mahomes and USC are at 7-5 and playing in the s...Bowl?  Is it because there is no team around him? J.J. has the better players around him I guess that helps?  

I agree with you and think are partially right about your answer about better players around McCarthy to include Defense.  I think it has to do with the teams they played too.  Ask all the NFL draft gurus and sports analyst why they have graded the top QBs in this year's draft the way they have?  I think they know best.  Yes, or no?  I gave McCarthy a 2nd round grade and that seems more than fair.  I am no analyst but all things must be taken into consideration when these QBs are graded for the draft.