The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

17 minutes ago, mcsluggo said:

this thread is absolutely insane.  everyone here is either Sammy is the singe greatest, or cut the bum...  and often it is the same people swing the gauntlet after different games.   (and with the same bipolar sickness in people's assessment of Bienemy)  

 

Howell is for all intents and purposes a rookie, slapped into the most dysfunctional organization in football.   the offensive line is one of the worst in the league, by ANYONE's measure.  there is a new offensive coordinator... and with all of that he would EASILY rank the second best in class if he was ranked with all of the rookie QBs this season (possibly #3, if you give Anthony Robinson a grade other than "incomplete" after 4 games, or if you call Jordan Love a rookie, AND heavily over-weight the last three games).

 

RIGNT NOW he is clearly on-route to being a middle tier QB in the NFL without any squinting or rose-colored goggles............   and that would make him the best QB that Washington has had since the 1980s, with the possible exception of that Minnesota Viking.   Easily.   and there is a chance that he exceeds that "middle of the NFL" ranking, particularly if the team under new management is able to clean out the stench of **** that hangs over every corner of the organization.   

 

calm the **** down people... he is a solid young NFL player with upside.    enjoy that!

 

 

this list stands as a happy reminder of the last 30 halcyon years of Washington QB league-wide domination.... 

Ranking The Washington Redskins' 24 Starting QBs Since Super Bowl XXVI (thesportster.com)

enjoy the nipple-stiffening walk down memory lane....

Yeah he’s a solid young player with upside. He’s also going to likely wear a 4-13 finish that likely will give the team a chance at QB with even bigger upside. 
 

It’s not just a Sam debate at this point. The last few weeks has sent the season to hell and now all options are on the table. 

[RWJ]

44 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Does it matter to you if lets say the QB you pass over transforms the Giants into a contender and Howell's career ends up a peg or two below?

 

I am not saying that's how it goes down.  I don't know.  But i don't see how that's a variable to ignore as a possibility.   I'd want the GM to weigh that possibility.  Why don't you want them to even consider the thought?

They can do what they want, SIP and they will.  I am simply implying I'd be upset and think we have our guy.  JMO again.  All's good, bud.  

[djpapeleta360]

25 minutes ago, mcsluggo said:

this thread is absolutely insane.  everyone here is either Sammy is the singe greatest, or cut the bum...  and often it is the same people swing the gauntlet after different games.   (and with the same bipolar sickness in people's assessment of Bienemy)  

 

Howell is for all intents and purposes a rookie, slapped into the most dysfunctional organization in football.   the offensive line is one of the worst in the league, by ANYONE's measure.  there is a new offensive coordinator... and with all of that he would EASILY rank the second best in class if he was ranked with all of the rookie QBs this season (possibly #3, if you give Anthony Robinson a grade other than "incomplete" after 4 games, or if you call Jordan Love a rookie, AND heavily over-weight the last three games).

 

RIGNT NOW he is clearly on-route to being a middle tier QB in the NFL without any squinting or rose-colored goggles............   and that would make him the best QB that Washington has had since the 1980s, with the possible exception of that Minnesota Viking.   Easily.   and there is a chance that he exceeds that "middle of the NFL" ranking, particularly if the team under new management is able to clean out the stench of **** that hangs over every corner of the organization.   

 

calm the **** down people... he is a solid young NFL player with upside.    enjoy that!

 

 

this list stands as a happy reminder of the last 30 halcyon years of Washington QB league-wide domination.... 

Ranking The Washington Redskins' 24 Starting QBs Since Super Bowl XXVI (thesportster.com)

enjoy the nipple-stiffening walk down memory lane....

This article just put me more in favor of keeping Howell and thinking how we won all those Super Bowls with 3 different qbs. It's the same philosophy the 49ers have going on now. Build a strong team and you can win with with Purdy or Garrapallo. We need to build around Howell.

[Skinsinparadise]

36 minutes ago, The Consigliere said:

5 years of cheap cost controlled QB play is critical, so long as the QB is not, say, Zach Wilson, or Trey Lance, or the litany of guys I liked in '18, all of whom sucked or were mediocre (except for Lamar, who I did not prioritize much beyond snagging him on a dynasty team). 

 

Howell lacked a 5th year and we didn't use him in his 1st, so the value aint really there unless he hits a home run in '24, and how much value are those last two years when we're rock bottoming then anyway? Frustrating situation. 

 

It's really tricky IMO.

 

And its sort of cool in some ways too because we arguably in theory are playing with riches at QB in relative terms to the past.

 

A.  You got Howell who i am higher on than most.  But like you i don't know if we got a high ceiling with him.  But I am more confident than most he's a 12-15 type QB.  High floor, medium celing.

 

B.  Then you might be picking in the top 5 with in theory one of the better QB classes in awhile.

 

I am not advocating A or B.  It comes off that i am advocating B but that's only because I am debating those who are saying it has to be A.  For me both points need to be considered.

10 minutes ago, RWJ said:

They can do what they want, SIP and they will.  I am simply implying I'd be upset and think we have our guy.  JMO again.  All's good, bud.  

 

I hear you but why would you be upset.  Convinced Howell will be elite?  That's the only reason why I'd be upset.  

Edited December 4, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[TheGoodBits]

Best case scenario for our rebuild (imo) is landing a good enough draft pick to take Daniels, and trading it to someone who isn't in the division. Get down to the 5-10 range and draft a stud LT. Acquire extra picks.

I haven't watched a ton of college ball this year nor am I one to "study tape," however my scouting credentials do include strongly favoring Stoud over Young last year. Daniels highlight reel is devoid of mid level NFL throws. He's either throwing over the top of the defense or running the ball. And he takes more hits running it than would be ideal. He reminds me a lot more of RG3 than Lamar. 

Edited December 4, 2023 by TheGoodBits

[RWJ]

7 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

I hear you but why would you be upset.  Convinced Howell will be elite?  That's the only reason why I'd be upset.  

I believe he can be good to great; yes, given they build an OL around him.  

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

7 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

It's really tricky IMO.

 

And its sort of cool in some ways too because we arguably in theory are playing with riches at QB in relative terms to the past.

 

A.  You got Howell who i am higher on than most.  But like you i don't know if we got a high ceiling with him.  But I am more confident than most he's a 12-15 type QB.  High floor, medium celing.

 

B.  Then you might be picking in the top 5 with in theory one of the better QB classes in awhile.

 

I am not advocating A or B.  It comes off that i am advocating B but that's only because I am debating those who are saying it has to be A.  For me both points need to be considered.

 

I hear you but why would you be upset.  Convinced Howell will be elite?  That's the only reason why I'd be upset.  

I think we have the same type of range for Sam except you obviously think his ceiling is higher. I think his best case upper bound outcome is Kirk. It’s my opinion that you can’t pay guys like that unless you’re in your contention window and have a roster chock full of young, cost controlled talent. We obviously don’t have that so with a potential high draft pick in April, I’d be willing to gamble on another guy with higher upside. In my mind, it’s a bit of waste to go into 2024 with Sam, thinking/knowing he has a middling ceiling and that he’s due a big raise in the ‘25 offseason. 
 

However, if you still think his ceiling is pretty high (and we’ve seen folks in this thread say they’d rather him than Josh Allen and Jalen Hurts) then I guess it makes sense and give him another year. 

[Jumbo]

I laugh at all the recent ultra high standard for QB play in the same forum where I had to read voluminous support and praise for a scrub found on his sister's couch.

 

I do love es'ers almost universally, but some of the specific mental spasming on topics, while common to the venue, is still eyebrow-raising.

 

It's part of the attraction here though, not a flaw. 😁👹

[Skinsinparadise]

8 minutes ago, BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93 said:

I think we have the same type of range for Sam except you obviously think his ceiling is higher. I think his best case upper bound outcome is Kirk. It’s my opinion that you can’t pay guys like that unless you’re in your contention window and have a roster chock full of young, cost controlled talent. We obviously don’t have that so with a potential high draft pick in April, I’d be willing to gamble on another guy with higher upside. In my mind, it’s a bit of waste to go into 2024 with Sam, thinking/knowing he has a middling ceiling and that he’s due a big raise in the ‘25 offseason. 
 

However, if you still think his ceiling is pretty high (and we’ve seen folks in this thread say they’d rather him than Josh Allen and Jalen Hurts) then I guess it makes sense and give him another year. 

 

Kirk to me is 12-15 so I think we see the ceiling the same.  Like I said he strikes me high floor, medium ceiling.  So maybe i got a higher floor with him than you?  And I also think he will meet that ceiling.

 

We got him for 2 more years.  That to me is relevant.  The apples to apples comparisons to others in this draft is also relevant.

 

I am not in the mode of move on and take a QB or stay the course.  My point is this is a real discussion that this new GM will likely have.  This isn't a punt to 2025 call that some say IMO.  Keim who is pretty measured about much and likes Howell seems to agree as to weighing Qbs in this draft, he thinks its in play.  So do I. 

 

Edited December 4, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

Something I’ve been thinking about given the circumstances we find ourselves in.  It’s pretty much general consensus that the Bears will move on from Fields and take Caleb/Maye.

There is an abundance of tape out on Fields where he clearly isn’t seeing the field.  Some so bad it makes you wonder if he’s just cooked and can’t pull the trigger.

 

I am not seeing this tape from Sam.  There are plays he’d like to have back, of course.  But for a guy approaching history for taking sacks, starting for a bad team and turning the ball over, one would think the tape would be exposing him.  Showing all the brilliant plays drawn up and called where all he had to do was pull the trigger and didn’t.  Every bad QB has an abundance of tape like this, where they were setup to succeed and failed to do so.  Not Sam.

 

I’ve never seen an offense so immediately chaotic that appears to have no chance pre-snap.   It gets worse, week by week.  It’s hard for me to believe that Terry and Jahan are all the sudden pedestrians and that Howell should be doing more with what he’s being given.  I exercised patience with EB but he’s going the wrong way and it’s obvious he has nothing else up his sleeve.  They say QB’s are coach killers, but EB is really close to being a QB killer in more ways than one.

Edited December 4, 2023 by BatteredFanSyndrome

[Skinsinparadise]

20 minutes ago, RWJ said:

I believe he can be good to great; yes, given they build an OL around him.  

 

I am stuck on the good.  And is that good enough for me?  Yes.  And in most drafts, I wouldn't even consider other options. 

 

But by happenstance this is in theory the best draft for QBs since 2012.  And we are picking high.  I think we have to consider.  Not per se do. But consider the other meals on the plate considering they are more intriguing than the typical draft.

Edited December 4, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

6 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Something I’ve been thinking about given the circumstances we find ourselves in.  It’s pretty much general consensus that the Bears will move on from Fields and take Caleb/Maye.

There is an abundance of tape out on Fields where he clearly isn’t seeing the field.  Some so bad it makes you wonder if he’s just cooked and can’t pull the trigger.

 

I am not seeing this tape from Sam.  There are plays he’d like to have back, of course.  But for a guy approaching history for taking sacks, starting for a bad team and turning the ball over, one would think the tape would be exposing him.  Showing all the brilliant plays drawn up and called where all he had to do was pull the trigger and didn’t.  Every bad QB has an abundance of tape like this, where they were setup to succeed and failed to do so.  Not Sam.

 

I’ve never seen an offense so immediately chaotic that appears to have no chance pre-snap.   It gets worse, week by week.  It’s hard for me to believe that Terry and Jahan are all the sudden pedestrians and that Howell should be doing more with what he’s being given.  I exercised patience with EB but he’s going the wrong way and it’s obvious he has nothing else up

his sleeve.  They say QB’s are coach killers, but EB is really close to being a QB killer in more ways than one.

 

Agree.  I am looking at Sam on a curve.  He's not being helped by this regime.

 

Why do I wonder about whether his ceiling is elite?   There are some but not that many QBs who are great at his height.  He's a decent athlete but not a great athlete.  He has a very good arm but not a great arm.    I love that he's a baller, makes some wicked throws and is tough as nails.  Do i suspect he's a top 5 QB.  No.  I don't rule it out though,  But I think he's good.  And that alone would make him the best QB since Kirk and he can beat Kirk because he's more clutch and has better mobility.  

 

I am perfectly good running this back with Sam.  But I am considering the other restaurants before reflexively ordering from that same restaurant again. 

Edited December 4, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

Quick point on the OLine stuff. The NFL is bereft of OLine talent. I’ve seen a few analysts beg they use the XFL as a farm system for this very reason. These kids need reps and development programs. I say that bc I’m not sure how practical it is to build some elite OLine in an offseason. It takes time. Can this one be improved on? Of course. But QBs have to be able to adapt to less than ideal situations whether it’s Sam, a rookie, whoever. Burrow went to an SB behind a disaster line. The Dolphins actually have a weak line but Tu’a and McDaniel mask it. There’s a reason why analytically inclined folks see sacks at QB driven to a large degree. I can’t imagine the Oline will be dramatically different in 2024 even if it’s improved. Good on the Eagles and Browns for building great units but they all took time and both had misses along the way. 
 

But long story short, the line made up of 3 all pros and 2 solid guys isn’t realistic nowadays. 90% of QBs will have to avoid sacks and make plays and some are better than others as we have seen. Sam has always had a sack problem dating back to college so I’m not even sure giving him a “good” oline would rectify the situation. 

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

19 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Kirk to me is 12-15 so I think we see the ceiling the same.  Like I said he strikes me high floor, medium ceiling.  So maybe i got a higher floor with him than you?  And I also think he will meet that ceiling.

 

We got him for 2 more years.  That to me is relevant.  The apples to apples comparisons to others in this draft is also relevant.

 

I am not in the mode of move on and take a QB or stay the course.  My point is this is a real discussion that this new GM will likely have.  This isn't a punt to 2025 call that some say IMO.  Keim who is pretty measured about much and likes Howell seems to agree as to weighing Qbs in this draft, he thinks its in play.  So do I. 

 

If you’re not ready to pay him after year 3, then you’ve answered the question already. Also can’t imagine either side would feel comfortable playing without a contract in 2025. That would be another Kirk debacle. 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

3 minutes ago, BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93 said:

Quick point on the OLine stuff. The NFL is bereft of OLine talent. I’ve seen a few analysts beg they use the XFL as a farm system for this very reason. These kids need reps and development programs. I say that bc I’m not sure how practical it is to build some elite OLine in an offseason. It takes time. Can this one be improved on? Of course. But QBs have to be able to adapt to less than ideal situations whether it’s Sam, a rookie, whoever. Burrow went to an SB behind a disaster line. The Dolphins actually have a weak line but Tu’a and McDaniel mask it. There’s a reason why analytically inclined folks see sacks at QB driven to a large degree. I can’t imagine the Oline will be dramatically different in 2024 even if it’s improved. Good on the Eagles and Browns for building great units but they all took time and both had misses along the way. 
 

But long story short, the line made up of 3 all pros and 2 solid guys isn’t realistic nowadays. 90% of QBs will have to avoid sacks and make plays and some are better than others as we have seen. Sam has always had a sack problem dating back to college so I’m not even sure giving him a “good” oline would rectify the situation. 

There’s this huge place the size of the Atlantic Ocean that exists between the all pro line you speak of and the one we line up with every Sunday.

 

They give up immediate pressure from all angles, typically multiple.  They can’t hold blocks to set up plays down field.  Every play we’ve made on offense for weeks has been the result of Sam turning poop to ice cream or our backs making guys miss and breaking tackles.  It’s not just a talent deficiency, it’s coaching and play-calling as well - its the only way to be this bad.

 

 

 

 

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

1 minute ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

There’s this huge place the size of the Atlantic Ocean that exists between the all pro line you speak of and the one we line up with every Sunday.

 

They give up immediate pressure from all angles, typically multiple.  They can’t hold blocks to set up plays down field.  Every play we’ve made on offense for weeks has been the result of Sam turning poop to ice cream or our backs making guys miss and breaking tackles.  It’s not just a talent deficiency, it’s coaching and play-calling as well - its the only way to be this bad.

 

 

 

 

90% of fans will describe their olines like you just did. We always think ours is the worst. Don’t get me wrong. It stinks. But I guess my point is that most Olines stink relative to what fans think is acceptable play. I guess my point is that even if they add 2 good linemen next season, the consensus will be that the line stinks amongst fans. 

[Skinsinparadise]

Some like to cite PFF to defend this O line.  OK, PFF ranks it 24th, i bet its even lower after yesterday.  The Dolphins are ranked 10th from PFF.    When this FO ignored guys like Wynn who hit the market, the Dolphins pounced.  But I agree it takes time for an O line to gell-develop.  Rookies often aren't hot from the jump.

Edited December 4, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[philibusters]

5 minutes ago, BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93 said:

90% of fans will describe their olines like you just did. We always think ours is the worst. Don’t get me wrong. It stinks. But I guess my point is that most Olines stink relative to what fans think is acceptable play. I guess my point is that even if they add 2 good linemen next season, the consensus will be that the line stinks amongst fans. 

 

I definitely agree that fans exaggerate how bad our O-Line is.  Our O-Line is normal bad.  Out of 32 teams, I  suspect it would rank in that 24-27 type range.  Below average, but nothing unusually bad.  But because of the amount of sacks we have given up, a lot of fans think its unusually bad.    I definitely don't think that is the case.  

[Skinsinparadise]

I get the vibe from Keim that even this current regime actually thinks this O line is bad.  Based on multiple things Keim's said, the latest is that this regime behind the scenes said if they are back they are taking three O lineman in the next draft.

 

At a minimum judging by what Keim has said this regime doesn't feel vindicated by their off season work on the o line.  They realize it was a mistake.  

Edited December 4, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

3 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Some like to cite PFF to defend this O line.  OK, PFF ranks it 24th.  The Dolphins are ranked 10th from PFF.    When this FO ignored guys like Wynn who hit the market, the Dolphins pounced.  But I agree it takes time for an O line to gell-develop.  Rookies often aren't hot from the jump.

Miami is 23rd pass block win rate on ESPN. I didn’t realize that until Logan Paulsen brought it up on his pod last week. Now maybe he was strictly talking about pass pro bc they’re 5th in run block win rate but still I think Tu’a helps them a ton 

[Est.1974]

2 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I get the vibe from Keim that even this current regime actually thinks this O line is bad.  Based on multiple things Keim's said, the latest is that this regime behind the scenes said if they are back they are taking three O lineman in the next draft.

 

At a minimum judging by what Keim has said this regime doesn't feel vindicated by their off season work on the o line.  They realize it was a mistake.  

And to think this current regime used 3rd and 4th round picks on OL prospects in 2023 likely thinking their work in free agency had sufficiently plugged some immediate gaps. They doubled up on fail.

[Skinsinparadise]

1 minute ago, BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93 said:

Miami is 23rd pass block win rate on ESPN. I didn’t realize that until Logan Paulsen brought it up on his pod last week. Now maybe he was strictly talking about pass pro bc they’re 5th in run block win rate but still I think Tu’a helps them a ton 

9. MIAMI DOLPHINS (NO CHANGE)

Projected Week 12 starters:

LT Terron Armstead
LG Liam Eichenberg
C Connor Williams
RG Lester Cotton
RT Austin Jackson

• The Dolphins offensive line allowed just six pressures — and no sacks or quarterback hits — on 41 dropbacks against the Raiders. As a result, the unit earned the second-highest pass-blocking efficiency rating in Week 11.
• Connor Williams earned an 83.4 run-blocking grade against Las Vegas, which ranked second among centers in Week 11.

Best player: Terron Armstead

• Armstead’s 85.8 pass-blocking grade ranks second among all offensive tackles this season.

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-offensive-line-rankings-week-12-2023

 

Top 10 in pass blocking

 

 

2 minutes ago, Est.1974 said:

And to think this current regime used 3rd and 4th round picks on OL prospects in 2023 likely thinking their work in free agency had sufficiently plugged some immediate gaps. They doubled up on fail.

 

Yeah I am glad they realized they failed on this.  

 

I said before the season that their crap efforts on the O line would leading to their firing in the end.  I was actually wrong about that, their issues went well beyond just the O line.

 

But judging by what Keim has been saying they realize their O line was bad and that limited their season.   Soundslike their efforts behinds the scenes to try to save their jobs includes that they'd be all over fixing the O line next year.  But they clearly won't get that chance

[Skinsinparadise]

10 minutes ago, BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93 said:

Miami is 23rd pass block win rate on ESPN. I didn’t realize that until Logan Paulsen brought it up on his pod last week. Now maybe he was strictly talking about pass pro bc they’re 5th in run block win rate but still I think Tu’a helps them a ton 

 

Not saying PFF is the be all and end all.  They aren't.  But they've been the best friend for this O line for anyone trying to defend it so I like to use them to counter point.  In interviews they blocking efficiency as the ultimate grade for a unit.  this is their rankings on it.  their 25 ranking here for Washington is similar to their macro ranking of the unit.  And again these are the biggest fans of this unit relatively speaking.

 

 

Edited December 4, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[The Consigliere]

7 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

I still think Howell is the guy going forward. The players have not stopped supporting him either, like they have the coaches.

 

I would also draft a QB twice in this draft. Be it day two or whatever and a late rounder/UDFA and build a strong QB room, but the next coach needs to commit to the starter.

I think this speaks to more of the ---- show that was QB during this era (and in general). You've got 6 different starting QB regulars during the Rivera era, plus spot starts from Garrett Gilbert and Fitzpatrick the latter of whom was meant to be starter but suffered a career derailing injury. 

Howell

Wentz

Heinicke

Alex Smith

Ryan Fitzpatrick

Garrett Gilbert

Kyle Allen

Dwayne Haskins

 

Basically the players finally have a young, capable, talented QB. Is he good? Mehhhh, not sure, is he bad? Sometimes yes, sometimes no, but he's competent in a way that nobody has been at the position since Alex Smith, and Alex Smith nearly died trying to play quarterback before he retired for this horror show of a team. I think the players appreciate that he's a leader, that he has no quit in him, that he will give up his body for the team, and that he will not blame them for their ---- blocking, defense, and talent at the playmaking position. He covers everything in how a leader should lead, and physically can play the position. Alex Smith before his nearly fatal injury (and after) was the only other guy that could do that since Cousins was here. It doesn't surprise me that they like him and support him. He isn't hopeless physically (Heinickie, Allen, Gilbert), he isn't a thousand years old and should've retired (Alex Smith, Ryan Fitzpatrick), he isn't an empty uniform with a golden arm (Wentz), he isn't an immature clown (the late Haskins). He's reliable, and a fighter and a leader.

 

I'm not surprised they like him, but I also only care in so much about what that says regarding his floor. Even w/that said, settling for where he's at is settling, at least for now. Looking at his efficiency markers, he's basically 20th or worth in 6 of 14 player profiler categories and in another 3 categores he's 18th, 19th and 19th, making him 19th or worse in 8 of 14 categories. 

 

Its nebulous. Even his good #'s, are not elite, they're, above average generally (13th in accuracy rating, 12th in true accuracy, 4th in pressured completion pct, 9th in EPA, 14th in production premium).

 

This is what I was kind of afraid of. That he would be not great or elite, but he also wouldn't be horrible. He'd be somewhere in-between, he'd mostly look like a bottom 35th-40th percentile QB, which is, not good enough, but not a clear wash out either, especially when he was presented maybe the worst Defense in the league, one of the worst OL's, and one of the bottom 5ish pass catching groups. I hope the data we get this last month will be helpful, but I fear it will be unreliable. The team definitely appears to be quitting on Rivera, and it wasn't very good to begin with, so we are less likely to learn who Howell is from beat downs in games where he's receiving middling at best support and usually far worse. 

 

Truly alarming and frustrating. Because we're not in range for Maye or Caleb, I'm inclined on passing on QB, building the team a little, drafting a QB maybe in round 2 or 3, mostly because Daniels scares me, and I believe whatever changes we make, the team is so bad on defense and offense, that if Howell doesn't have it in '24, and is a bust, he'll have had a better chance, not this stacked deck against him, but the team itself will likely implode if he doesn't have it, and if he does have it, probably win 7 or 8 games because at the end of the day we have below average or worse units everywhere on this team other than maybe Punting. You can't fix all of that in one offseason, so if he's good w/more support, we'll be below average, but if he's poor, as he just might be, the team will suck and can draft a QB.

 

But I am torn about this because we rarely suck as much as we have this year. Since this team collapsed in 1993, the years where our implosion put us in position to draft a franchise QB were generally rare and far between: 1993, 1994, 2003, 2004, 2009, 2011, 2013, 2014, 2019, and this year. Unfortunately for us the only years that matched quality QB classes amongst those were 2003, 2011 and 2019, and we eschewed QB in 2 of those 3 years, and hit on Cousins but busted on our first rounder in the other 1. What are the chances we suck in time for a great class again? We'll see, but part of me dreads passing on QB in this class because '25 aint great, it's better than it was, but its still not '17, '18, '20, '21 or '23 or '24. 

 

But this is just our reality, unfortunately. We've got an interesting bird in hand, and we have to hope Sam turns out well, or Daniels if we take him, or the QB in '25 if it's neither of them. 

[The Consigliere]

6 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

All of that is true.

 

I think its one heck of a decision for the new GM.

 

A.  You got a QB who has teased enough that he can be the goods but what version of being the goods can he be -- good or great?

 

B.  You got potentially one of the best WR prospects in eons, one of the best TEs and IMO high end LT prospects

 

C.  You got in theory a deep draft at need spots like the O line.  

 

D.  If you pick ahead of the Giants and you skip a QB, they likely pick the QB you skip.

 

Everything feels calm now because nothing has played out.  But lets say they discard Howell and he becomes great elsewhere?  Or lets say they don't and ends up just average to good and the QB they passed over is killing it with the Giants?

 

For me I want the new GM to consider all of this.

 

I don't care what the Giants do, other than for laughing purposes when they take Flowers, or Saquon, or Danny Nickels etc, but I dont think we should care what they do. Our problems are so much worse than theirs. We've been horrible for 30 years, they've made 3 super bowls just in the last 23 years despite being average or suck for most of that era in general. We've barely won a playoff game since 1993 (what, 1999, and 2005?). We are utterly irrelevant, and shouldn't consider them. We should make the best decisions in the long term interest of the franchise. If the QB is a guy that makes sense, take him. If he doesn't, pass and take one of the best in positional cohort prospects (OL, TE, Edge (gag) or WR). Go from there. This is a 2-3 year fix if everything goes right, caring what our division is doing while we attempt to rebuild this mess is silly.

 

The DB's suck

The LB's suck

The Edge's suck

the OL sucks

The WR's are below average

The running game is meh

the ST's are okay.

 

That takes years to fix. Make the smart, good process decisions. No quick fixes, no short term thinking, think long term, best allocation of draft capital, and salary cap funds, and go from there.