The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[KDawg]

37 minutes ago, stoshuaj said:

Over/under on some numbskull referring to Howell as a bust or making a ridiculous comparison to a current or future HOF qb in the game day thread this weekend?

 

mid 2nd qtr is my guess

First drive.

[ClaytoAli]

17 hours ago, HigSkin said:

 

He was slow on the throw and almost threw it behind him.

Edited January 6, 2023 by ClaytoAli

[KDawg]

1 hour ago, stoshuaj said:

Over/under on some numbskull referring to Howell as a bust or making a ridiculous comparison to a current or future HOF qb in the game day thread this weekend?

 

mid 2nd qtr is my guess

 

I amend this. It happened right after the twitter clip on the throw to Terry.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

1 hour ago, stoshuaj said:

Over/under on some numbskull referring to Howell as a bust or making a ridiculous comparison to a current or future HOF qb in the game day thread this weekend?

 

mid 2nd qtr is my guess

 

 

Before the game starts is my guess lol...

[SkinsGuy]

30 minutes ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

 

 

Before the game starts is my guess lol...

 

I thought it already happened back in August and the preseason. 

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, Thinking Skins said:

The Eagles also got hella lucky. I mean they drafted McNabb and he was successful. That meant any other QB they drafted in that period was just there but not really competing with McNabb, kinda like their version of Heinicke. Then they suck for a few years and get Foles in 2012. Then when he bombs out they get Wentz. Then when he gets hurt they get Hurts. I don't even think they have good scouting on QBs but the guys they draft are just good. We drafted Ramsey (sucks), Campbell (meh), RG3 (hurt), Haskins (sucks) in the first round and just had way worse luck. 

 

If you were bringing up the Packers from the 90s I'd be more inclined to agree because its what i have been preaching for years - draft a QB to develop and if they become better than your starter you can trade one. But even that philosophy depends on you having a good QB and the guys you draft actually playing well. Neither of these things have been true for us. 

 

Its one of the reasons I think that 1) we're too focused on things that don't matter as much like arm strength over accuracy and mindset (mojo, leadership, whatever you want to call it) . I want a guy who can move the ball on slants and crossing routes all down the field. If they can throw it deep then great but if not we can start them until we get somebody better. But the problem I think is that historically we have had too many systems for a QB to get comfortable in that system. I want to just have a coach and OC here with no pressure to win 13 games for a few years. Let them finish their first contract and not fire them for a slump or breakdown at the end of the season. I'm all for competition at the player level but we have only one coach and as long as they're not incompetent I want them coaching 4 to 5 years every time. That Marty / Spurrier / GIbbs / Zorn / Shanahan stretch was burtal for me because we were replacing OCs so often. Shanahan got 4 years but was fired for how he handled Rg3. He could have developed Cousins same as Gruden, if not better cause he knew RG3 was done. 

 

You are saying the Eagles are lucky versus us and then go on to explain why in your mind we are scouting the QB position wrong.  The two points sort of run against each other. 

 

Eagles put a masterclass on QB, they've basically had three franchise QBs (Wentz for a short period) during the Dan reign of terror while we've had none.  They've also moved multiple QBs at the same time for major assets.  They've done a killer job at that spot.  

 

I used to say that on the FO thread.  You took a small victory lap when the Eagles struggled a little for a short span, called me out on it, back when you were pro Bruce, which is cool, fair at the time, but the Eagles blip lasted for almost no time and then bam they were really good again.  Roseman and the Eagles FO could teach this FO, both the current and certainly the previous one a masterclass.

 

And you hated Cousins and still do.   So not sure why you are highlighting that pick.

 

As far as different systems, yeah that makes it harder.  But also taking 2nd round talent in the first stacks the deck against you.  Campbell and Ramsey weren't considered by most as first rounders.  The draft media liked Haskins but it came out before the draft that NFL scouts weren't with the Kipers of the world, etc about that pick, our own scouts rated him a 3rd rounder.  All three had the opportunity to shine elsewhere and they didn't.  Ditto RG3. 

 

 

Edited January 6, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, KDawg said:

First drive.

 

I am guessing Quinn who is a creative coordinator will blitz the heck out of him, especially with them playing with a makeshift O line and a small dude, Patterson, at times in there assigned to pick up the blitz.  And when he's sacked, Howell will be blamed for holding on the ball too long. 😀

 

While I love that he's starting, man is it the perfect storm working against him.

 

A.  The best pass rush in the NFL.

B.  Makeshift team from us.  Versus the Cowboys playing to basically try to set themselves up as favorites for the SB. 

C. This is a depressing-road game atmosphere at home

 

I like Howell, you like him even more.  I am looking for flashes, versus a full good game.  Overall, I can't think of a worse set up for a rookie debut. I'd do it anyway like they are doing but he has a lot of slack from me in this game. 

Edited January 6, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, Thinking Skins said:

I feel like people get too caught up in Big Names. I want Heinicke here until he's beat out. Look at the Eagles with Foles. He wasn't a number 1 and proved it but they kept him when they drafted Wentz cause he had shown that he could do enough to lead a team in tough times.

 

Heinicke as a backup is fine but as for a legit chance to start that's beyond nauseating to me, it would be giving up the season in advance.  Heinicke's "clutch" play to me is way overplayed.  As far as i am concerned, he's a gamer in the 4th quarter in low stakes games but that's it. 

 

When the weather got colder and the stakes were raised in the last two years he was "meh" to awful in December.  People give Kirk a hard time for the meltdown games in the homestretch of 2016.  Heinicke has done the same thing now two years in a row -- the only difference is Heinicke is a cooler dude, great interview, lovable personality, a dude who seems like fun to have a few beers with, that's all. 

 

Foles has had one of the weirdest career arcs, 2 good seasons, 2 good postseasons, but a mediocre to less than that career.  I don't think peak Heinicke can match peak Foles albiet peak Foles seems long long gone.

 

2 hours ago, Thinking Skins said:

 

What I don't want is another big trade (3rd rounders or more) for an alomst 30 year old QB who has been injured and has limited mobility (Jimmy G or Carr). There are a number of QBs becoming available who we could look at for a competition including the draft, but people are so caught up in the names that they would rather lose with a big name than win 7 with Heinicke. I want to just have a competitive QB room that isn't based on name recognition from 3 or 4 years ago. 

 

Jimmy G wouldn't require a trade unles the 49ers franchise him but if I recall he has some agreement with the 9ers they won't, but not sure.   He has arguably had his best year this year -- not 3-4 years ago.  Derek Carr played well most of his career, especially 2021, this year learning a new system he struggled, his best was not 3-4 years ago.

 

Who else are you thinking they might chase who last played good 3-4 years ago?

Edited January 6, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Chris 44]

7 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I am guessing Quinn who is a creative coordinator will blitz the heck out of him, especially with them playing with a makeshift O line and a small dude, Patterson, at times in there assigned to pick up the blitz.  And when he's sacked, Howell will be blamed for holding on the ball too long. 😀

 

While I love that he's starting, man is it the perfect storm working against him.

 

A.  The best pass rush in the NFL.

B.  Makeshift team from us.  Versus the Cowboys playing to basically try to set themselves up as favorites for the SB. 

C. This is a depressing-road game atmosphere at home

 

I like Howell, you like him even more.  I am looking for flashes, versus a full good game.  Overall, I can't think of a worse set up for a rookie debut. I'd do it anyway like they are doing but he has a lot of slack from me in this game. 

Would like to see an entertaining game, see how Howell looks. However with all the above that you mentioned Im guessing we will see a lot of running the ball and Ron just trying to get the team the hell out of dodge as quickly as possible without further injuries / embarrassment. Kind of a depressing way to end the season. On the bright side one game closer to Snyder being gone though.

[Thinking Skins]

5 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

You are saying the Eagles are lucky versus us and then go on to explain why in your mind we are scouting the QB position wrong.  The two points sort of run against each other. 

 

Eagles put a masterclass on QB, they've basically had three franchise QBs (Wentz for a short period) during the Dan reign of terror while we've had none.  They've also moved multiple QBs at the same time for major assets.  They've done a killer job at that spot.  

 

I used to say that on the FO thread.  You took a small victory lap when the Eagles struggled a little for a short span, called me out on it, back when you were pro Bruce, which is cool, fair at the time, but the Eagles blip lasted for almost no time and then bam they were really good again.  Roseman and the Eagles FO could teach this FO, both the current and certainly the previous one a masterclass.

 

And you hated Cousins and still do.   So not sure why you are highlighting that pick.

 

As far as different systems, yeah that makes it harder.  But also taking 2nd round talent in the first stacks the deck against you.  Campbell and Ramsey weren't considered by most as first rounders.  The draft media liked Haskins but it came out before the draft that NFL scouts weren't with the Kipers of the world, etc about that pick, our own scouts rated him a 3rd rounder.  All three had the opportunity to shine elsewhere and they didn't.  Ditto RG3. 

 

 

I'm just saying that they didn't do anything we didn't do. They drafted the top QB in the class - McNabb. We drafted the top QB in the class - Schuler. One sucked, one was an all pro. They drafted the second best QB in the draft in Wentz, we drafted the second best QB in the draft in RG3. Both looked good but one got hurt after one year and one got hurt after 3. They drafted the #5 best QB in the draft in Hurts and we draft the #5 QB in the draft in Ramsey, Campbell or Haskins. Hurts looks like a franchise guy and our guys sucks. I'm saying that's lucky.

 

They didn't write a book on drafting QBs. They did (and do) write books on winning trades. I give them respect for that. They are consistently getting draft capital. That's because their front office valued the draft. Between Casserly and drunk dude, we did not value the draft so we were constantly trading draft picks. Even now, we are more likely to trade draft picks for marginal starters where the stats show that these QBs don't produce much better than decent backup or a spot starter.

 

I don't hate Cousins (hate is way too strong a word). I thought he wasn't as good as RG3, and still think he collapses in big moments. I thought he sucked in 2013 and 2014. I didn't want him for the money he demanded after 2015 (?2016?) and thought we were better off trading him. I really didn't want him after he was doing his fake press with GranDan acting like he wanted to be here but it was his obligation to demand a guaranteed contract. 

 

That said Cousins has been our best QB since Johnson. That's not disputable. Could he have achieved that same success (if not more) under Shanny? I think so. What's more, I think we could have a running game under Shanny so we'd be depending less on Cousins in critical moments, ala he'd be more like Jimmy G. But that's water under the bridge. I think we recklessly get rid of coaches and OCs around here and I think that's directly tied to our not being able to get production better than mediocre over the last 23 years. And Cousins is the perfect example. Even with the changes in OC and HC, we kept guys like McVay who likely already had a relationship with Cousins. How much overlap was there in the Shanny / McVay / Gruden systems?

 

But Cousins went from a guy who was an interception machine his first 2 years to a legit starter. That's the definition of developing a QB and having patience, and its what I've been arguing for all along. I want to draft a bunch of lower round QBs and develop them like GB did in the 90s, heck like SF is doing now. Sure Mullens and Purdy and Beathard aren't all pros but they are guys who came in and played well enough and helped keep the offense afloat - an offense that doesn't depend on the QB being a Patrick Mahomes in order to be successful. 

 

But its OK. I don't own this team and I have no role in the coaching so I have to separate my emotions from the team's performance. If Howell plays well great. If he doesn't and is cut next month, not my problem. I'll just cheer on Sundays. I know what I'd like to see but I'm past getting mad when they don't do things my way. This team is on the Wizards level in terms of me caring about them. They make so many mistakes that the whole world can see are wrong but they still do them anyway that I can't get frustrated about them any more.

 

[Skinsinparadise]

1 minute ago, Chris 44 said:

Would like to see an entertaining game, see how Howell looks. However with all the above that you mentioned Im guessing we will see a lot of running the ball and Ron just trying to get the team the hell out of dodge as quickly as possible without further injuries / embarrassment. Kind of a depressing way to end the season. On the bright side one game closer to Snyder being gone though.

 

Part of my interest is seeing him deal with the pass rush.  I don't think Howell is as elusive as Desaun Watson but he can be elusive and also take off when he sees a rushing lane.  Heinicke is just a pocket passer with a little wiggle in the pocket.  Sort of a poor man's Tony Romo as far as dealing with pressure, and while he might have wheels he doesn't use them, heck Kirk and Colt McCoy brought more running ability than Taylor.  Wentz is a statue.  Howell isn't a statue and is 10 times more of a running threat than zero running threat Taylor.  So watching D. Watson escape pressure against our D line, I am very curious among other things to see how he fares on that front. 

[The Sisko]

11 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I've stopped caring about the draft vs. trade vs. free agency. 

 

For every Allen and Mahomes, there are 4 Wentzs, Trubisky's and Darnolds.  It's almost impossible to predict who's going to be good and who isn't.  Even first pick QBs have basically sucked since Peyton Manning through Joe Burrow, with a brief time when Cam didn't suck.  But in hindsight, that was like 4 years.  I guess Luck didn't suck either, but he was out of the league in 6 years.  

 

I think you just have to keep throwing darts at the wall until one sticks.  They threw a dart with Wentz.  It failed.  Ok, fine.  Move on.  Maybe Howell is the guy.  I'm not betting on it.  Draft somebody as well.  Sign a FA.  Trade for a veteran.  Do all of them.

 

Just make damn sure Taylor Heinicke is not part of the mix or else he will end up playing and we will end up 7-10 again.  

 

I'd prefer they take another shot or two and it flame out spectacularly or succeed spectacularly. 

And yet some teams manage to get it right more often than most, the Fecals being one example. I think it was Ron Wolf that used to draft a QB somewhere in the draft almost every year. However, that strategy presupposes that you’re capable of picking good ones every so often, and when you do, your idiot “GM” doesn’t underrate him and send him packing. Once Snyder is gone,🤞🏽🤞🏽🤞🏽I’m hoping the new owner does a better job of finding someone that really understands leadership, team building, organizational philosophy, and finding the right people to put it all together. But then compared to Farquaad, a monkey with a dartboard could do a better job.

[Thinking Skins]

9 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Heinicke as a backup is fine but as for a legit chance to start that's beyond nauseating to me, it would be giving up the season in advance.  Heinicke's "clutch" play to me is way overplayed.  As far as i am concerned, he's a gamer in the 4th quarter in low stakes games but that's it. 

 

But, with all due respect, you are not the only fan. Dude won us games THIS YEAR. Dude won us games last year. People are so set on his ceiling and what other QBs could do in this system. Proof is that they haven't. The only QB who has won more than 3 games in this system other than Heinicke is Smith and he's in no position to play right now. So I think Heinicke has earned a chance to start or at least compete to start. But that's not the feeling on this board so I'm not going to force an argument on that point. 

 

9 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

When the weather got colder and the stakes were raised in the last two years he was "meh" to awful in December.  People give Kirk a hard time for the meltdown games in the homestretch of 2016.  Heinicke has done the same thing now two years in a row -- the only difference is Heinicke is a cooler dude, great interview, lovable personality, a dude who seems like fun to have a few beers with, that's all. 

 

Yep. And just like Kirk, people are in a love hate relationship with Heinicke. He's legit the best QB since Kirk and maybe the third best QB since 2000 (after Kirk and Brunell) but people keep making statements like he doesn't belong in this league and he doesn't have and NFL arm. I think thats just disrespecting what he has done. Yes he struggled two seasons in a row and that's a legit reason to look to replace him, but its not a reason to say he can't play. 

 

9 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Foles has had one of the weirdest career arcs, 2 good seasons, 2 good postseasons, but a mediocre to less than that career.  I don't think peak Heinicke can match peak Foles albiet peak Foles seems long long gone.

 

 

That's strictly opinion though. We don't know what Heinicke can do because he has never been given a chance. He has have 0 offseasons where he was the starter despite having the best QB resume with this team on the roster. 

 

9 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Jimmy G wouldn't require a trade unles the 49ers franchise him but if I recall he has some agreement with the 9ers they won't, but not sure.   He has arguably had his best year this year -- not 3-4 years ago.  Derek Carr played well most of his career, especially 2021, this year learning a new system he struggled, his best was not 3-4 years ago.

 

They're also both 31. This would be similar to the McNabb and Smith trades where we're paying for guys in their 30s for what they did in their 20s. 

 

9 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Who else are you thinking they might chase who last played good 3-4 years ago?

There's a whole list of names that people are bringing up - Geno Smith, Aaron Rodgers, Jacoby Brissett, Ryan Tannehill, Mariota. I don't want any of these guys. I have no problem with not signing Heinicke and bringing in another young QB to compete with Howell, but I don't want another retread old QB to come in here on his second stint to get fans excited only to suck come August - January. 

[DJHJR86]

The only way you re-sign Heinicke next year is if you have a clear QB1 when doing so.  Otherwise, you keep Howell as the presumptive backup for next year.  

[redskinss]

 

17 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

But, with all due respect, you are not the only fan. Dude won us games THIS YEAR. Dude won us games last year. People are so set on his ceiling and what other QBs could do in this system. Proof is that they haven't. The only QB who has won more than 3 games in this system other than Heinicke is Smith and he's in no position to play right now. So I think Heinicke has earned a chance to start or at least compete to start. But that's not the feeling on this board so I'm not going to force an argument on that point. 

Ok where are the hive deniers?

Please see above post for proof.

But seriously, because heinicke and Alex Smith are the only two quarterbacks who have won a few games in this system they're now the only two options?

Heinicke has been in this system his entire career and gotten the first team reps for us for large portions of the last two regular seasons, inferring that he needs an offseason as the starter to have been given a chance and that we don't know what he can do because of it is absolutely ludicrous.

The only good argument for going into the season with heinicke as the starter is if we admit a full rebuild, sell off the players we can and try for a high draft pick for a quarterback next year.

 

[Thinking Skins]

3 minutes ago, redskinss said:

 

Ok where are the hive deniers?

Please see above post for proof.

But seriously, because heinicke and Alex Smith are the only two quarterbacks who have won a few games in this system they're now the only two options?

Heinicke has been in this system his entire career and gotten the first team reps for us for large portions of the last two regular seasons, inferring that he needs an offseason as the starter to have been given a chance and that we don't know what he can do because of it is absolutely ludicrous.

The only good argument for going into the season with heinicke as the starter is if we admit a full rebuild, sell off the players we can and try for a high draft pick for a quarterback next year.

 

This is exactly why I take breaks from this thread. I'm not allowed to support Heinicke without these kind of comments. 

[redskinss]

1 minute ago, Thinking Skins said:

This is exactly why I take breaks from this thread. I'm not allowed to support Heinicke without these kind of comments. 

am I not allowed my opinion?

That's what message boards are for, back and forth.

But I agree I've told myself many times I was done with this debate, it no doubt has become a pointless exercise for both sides.

[Thinking Skins]

Just now, redskinss said:

am I not allowed my opinion?

That's what message boards are for, back and forth.

But I agree I've told myself many times I was done with this debate, it no doubt has become a pointless exercise for both sides.

This Heinicke Hive stuff is just like the anti-Cousins stuff or the anti-Colt stuff or the anti-Campbell stuff. It gets in the way of the good discussions. Its cool if that's what you want to do, but I joined this board because I was tired of the name calling on other boards (tsn). I enjoy the in depth discussions, not the quick namecallng thinking its funny but the person you're talking to doesn't find it funny. I'm not a mod so I have no power over your (or anybody else's) actions. But I can just go to twitter and interact with people who are not going to jump to namecalling like that.

 

It doesn't even matter if you used a profane word or sarcasm. What you're still doing is insulting my intelligence and that of anybody who likes Heinicke by acting as if we lack the ability to reason as well as you. Its okay though. Like I said in another post though, I'm too old to get emotional about this stuff. This is just another reason why I need to spend more time reading books and doing things that help me relax than thinking about what this team is doing wrong. 

And for reference here are the franchise wins by a QB for the Redskins/WFT/Commanders

1. Theismann - 77

2. Jurgensen - 52

3. Kilmer - 50

4. Rypien - 45

5. Cousins - 26

6. Schroeder - 24

7. LeBaron - 23

8. Campbell - 20

9. Ferotte - 19

10. Johnson - 17

11. Brunell - 15

12. RG3 - 14

13. Heinicke - 12

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

5 hours ago, Thinking Skins said:

 

But, with all due respect, you are not the only fan. Dude won us games THIS YEAR. Dude won us games last year. 

 

We are all giving opinions.  You aren't the only fan either.  I said nauseating "to me".  So not sure why you need to say I am not speaking for all the fans.   I doubt though it would be a popular move with most of the fans.  But with a vocal minority of fans, yeah sure.

 

And while i am not the only fan as you expressed.  I'll go out on the limb that your takes on QBs are more of an outlier than me.  You typically like what I call the garbage bin of the Qbs. Ala Nick Mullens.  You still think Jason Campbell might have been good if given more time-right system.  You still tout the Case Keenum trade as one of Bruce's best moves, etc.

 

With all due respect, if I had to think of someone I've debated QBs over the years that fits the let Heinicke be the guy, its you.  it's consistent.  And its cool to have whatever opinion you got.  But I'll say for example if i polled the fans and asked if they woud dig Case Keenum, Nick Mullens or would you like a bigger sample size than we got of Jason Campbell, I'd be with the consensus, not you. 

 

5 hours ago, Thinking Skins said:

 

 Dude won us games THIS YEAR. Dude won us games last year.

 

So did Kirk yet you wanted him gone.  So Heinicke having basically a 500 record as a starter with two wretched Decemebers in a row -- to bring him back, I am assuming its deeper than he's won some games?

 

5 hours ago, Thinking Skins said:

 

Yep. And just like Kirk, people are in a love hate relationship with Heinicke. He's legit the best QB since Kirk and maybe the third best QB since 2000 (after Kirk and Brunell) bu

 

Do you think he has similar ability to Kirk?  Give him a little more time and he might develop the same way?

 

5 hours ago, Thinking Skins said:

 

They're also both 31. This would be similar to the McNabb and Smith trades where we're paying for guys in their 30s for what they did in their 20s. 

 

 

How old is Taylor?

 

5 hours ago, Thinking Skins said:

 

There's a whole list of names that people are bringing up - Geno Smith, Aaron Rodgers, Jacoby Brissett, Ryan Tannehill, Mariota. I don't want any of these guys. I have no problem with not signing Heinicke and bringing in another young QB to compete with Howell, but I don't want another retread old QB to come in here on his second stint to get fans excited only to suck come August - January. 

 

OK but it doesn't fit your point that their best was 3-4 years ago.  Heck even Aaron Rodgers if I recall won the MVP the previous season.   Geno had his peak season, this season, etc.

Edited January 6, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[redskinss]

1 minute ago, Thinking Skins said:

This Heinicke Hive stuff is just like the anti-Cousins stuff or the anti-Colt stuff or the anti-Campbell stuff. It gets in the way of the good discussions. Its cool if that's what you want to do, but I joined this board because I was tired of the name calling on other boards (tsn). I enjoy the in depth discussions, not the quick namecallng thinking its funny but the person you're talking to doesn't find it funny. I'm not a mod so I have no power over your (or anybody else's) actions. But I can just go to twitter and interact with people who are not going to jump to namecalling like that.

 

It doesn't even matter if you used a profane word or sarcasm. What you're still doing is insulting my intelligence and that of anybody who likes Heinicke by acting as if we lack the ability to reason as well as you. Its okay though. Like I said in another post though, I'm too old to get emotional about this stuff. This is just another reason why I need to spend more time reading books and doing things that help me relax than thinking about what this team is doing wrong. 

You're being a little sensitive about this, saying there's a "hive for heinicke" that exists when many believe it doesn't is not name calling, it's pointing out that there is a faction of people who still believe heinicke is a viable option moving forward when in my (and many others) opinion is that it's insanity.

 

 

[skinzplay]

"Heini hole wiped clean" - y'all crack me up, man!! 

[Darrell Green Fan]

I heard some good points on the radio. Heinke's presence next season could create a distraction.  Like Tebow fans our fans only seem to remember the good things he did and conveniently forget the bad. And there was more bad than good.  Next season fans and perhaps some of the players will be calling for TH the moment the offense turns south and the losses mount.  That's not a good situation.  

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, Thinking Skins said:

I'm just saying that they didn't do anything we didn't do. They drafted the top QB in the class - McNabb. We drafted the top QB in the class - Schuler. One sucked, one was an all pro. They drafted the second best QB in the draft in Wentz, we drafted the second best QB in the draft in RG3. Both looked good but one got hurt after one year and one got hurt after 3. They drafted the #5 best QB in the draft in Hurts and we draft the #5 QB in the draft in Ramsey, Campbell or Haskins. Hurts looks like a franchise guy and our guys sucks. I'm saying that's lucky.

 

 

 

Not every draft is the same, not every player is the same.  The 2nd best in one draft isn't per se the same talent as the 2nd best in another.

 

RG3's injury was unlucky but heck so was Wentz's injury but the Eagles bounced back and found another guy and loaded up on assets from Wentz and others.

 

Roseman accrues draft capital, we piss it away.  He realizes a mistake, sells high and moves on.   That's not luck.

 

1 hour ago, Thinking Skins said:

 

But Cousins went from a guy who was an interception machine his first 2 years to a legit starter. That's the definition of developing a QB and having patience, and its what I've been arguing for all along. I want to draft a bunch of lower round QBs and develop them like GB did in the 90s, heck like SF is doing now. Sure Mullens and Purdy and Beathard aren't all pros but they are guys who came in and played well enough and helped keep the offense afloat - an offense that doesn't depend on the QB being a Patrick Mahomes in order to be successful. 

 

 

 

Agree with this part.  they did have patience with Kirk.  He did though have some flash games in the early ride though.

 

Howell should be interesting because some parallels to Kirk.  My issue with some of the in my mind lesser QBs you tout is they aren't IMO that talented.  Kirk was billed as a 2nd rounder before the draft, had nice size, a live arm, quick release, played in a pro system.  He was a surprise faller to the 4th round.  Howell, also touted to go higher, and is more talented than the standard QB who has fallen to the mid rounds.

 

I do agree with players like that preach patience.  I don't feel that way with the standard mid to lower round QB who isn't that talented, who maybe flashes some but shows more bad than good.

 

If I want a script to play out some.  So I agree on that front but I want it to be with a talented QB and is a hard worker. 

9 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

I heard some good points on the radio. Heinke's presence next season could create a distraction.  Like Tebow fans our fans only seem to remember the good things he did and conveniently forget the bad. And there was more bad than good.  Next season fans and perhaps some of the players will be calling for TH the moment the offense turns south and the losses mount.  That's not a good situation.  

 

I've heard that discussed, too.    Standig actually when asked to guess if Heinicke is back, his guess was no. 

Edited January 6, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Thinking Skins]

2 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

We are all giving opinions.  You aren't the only fan either.  I said nauseating "to me".  So not sure why you need to say I am not speaking for all the fans.   I doubt though it would be a popular move with most of the fans.  But with a vocal minority of fans, yeah sure.

 

Exactly, and I'm just reinforcing that. You are only one person. We are other people so we have different opinions and you saying yours doesn't negate ours. 

 

2 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

And while i am not the only fan as you expressed.  I'll go out on the limb that your takes on QBs are more of an outlier than me.  You typically like what I call the garbage bin of the Qbs. Ala Nick Mullens.  You still think Jason Campbell might have been good if given more time-right system.  You still tout the Case Keenum trade as one of Bruce's best moves, etc.

 

Yes and I don't see the relevance here. I think if we kept Campbell in 2010 we don't need to trade for McNabb. We should have had him compete with Collins in 2008, but he got off to a hot start so it was forgotten. But in 2010 he was wearing thin and should have had competition. Instead he was traded for a bag of chips. I also like Mullins and Beathard and Purdy and a bunch of other QBs who I think could be good if given the time. 

 

2 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

With all due respect, if I had to think of someone I've debated QBs over the years that fits the let Heinicke be the guy, its you.  it's consistent.  And its cool to have whatever opinion you got.  But I'll say for example if i polled the fans and asked if they woud dig Case Keenum, Nick Mullens or would you like a bigger sample size than we got of Jason Campbell, I'd be with the consensus, not you. 

 

Thats cool. I'm not saying I'm any kind of authority. I like what I like. I'm a guy who believes in the underdogs and believes that a lot of people get press because of things beyond their ability like their market. If Eli's last name was Jones instead of Manning dude would have been benched after his 17, 18, and 20 or 25 pic seasons instead he got more chances and went to two SBs. 

 

But I'm not here for that. I like who I like and that's who I am. This isn't about Keenum or Mullins or Campbell or any of those other QBs. Its about Heinicke and how fans are treated for liking him and saying we like him as a starter. I used to get into discussions with OldFan about Campbell and we'd go back and forth and I'd create QB grading systems and analyze things about his play and he'd inspect it and agree or disagree, but it wasn't on some level of "oh you're just in that Camp so you're delusional". Even you and I have had a lot of these very discussions in the past and we've been able to disagree and stay above it all. And you aren't even the one who came at me with the Hive stuff, but I still feel like this thread has gotten to the point where somebody can't say "I want Heinicke to start" without getting the virtual Apollo Sandman called for.  

 

2 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

So did Kirk yet you despised him.  So Heinicke having basically a 500 record as a stater as a reason to bring him back, I am assuming its deeper than that?

 

No its not. I didn't like Kirk because of the media circus around him. He is a .500 starter and you know how much I love low round QBs who are developed. He put on a media circus like he wanted to stay here when we all knew he just wanted the dollar. Everything else about Kirk's resume I love and I was even calling for us to sign him before it got outrageous and even in those times I wanted us to sign him and hoped it would be reasonable. I hated the circus cause thats what it was. 

 

2 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Do you think he has similar ability to Kirk?  Give him a little more time and he might develop the same way?

 

That's the thing. We don't know. He improved in some areas this year and regressed in others. I would like to see him brought back but I'm not gung ho on him starting next year or being the guy going forward. I think he's the best QB we've had with Turner and that goes a long way if we're keeping Turner. 

 

2 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

How old is Taylor?

 

Old. And this is one reason I'm not so in favor of keeping him or starting him. I still think he has earned the right to compete for a starting job if he is brought back. Its like being the guy who routinely saves your company from collapsing but when promotions come around they say, "sorry but you just aren't the image we're looking for". In fact that's exactly what it is. But instead of putting together 30 slide power point presentations, he's leading 10 minute drives in the 4th quarter and going on 3 and 4 game winning streaks. 

 

2 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

OK but it doesn't fit your point that there best was 3-4 years ago.  Heck even Aaron Rodgers if I recall won the MVP the previous season.   Geno had his peak season, this season, etc.

We traded for McNabb and Smith after great seasons. They're getting old. That's my point. He who ignores the past is destined to repeat it. 

[Warhead36]

Yeah people forget Heinicke isn't some kid. He's over 30. He has on real growth potential. Its one thing if he were like 23 or 24, then okay maybe you bring him back and see if he develops. But he's well past that stage now. 

 

I say let him walk. Some team will give him good backup QB money and he can enjoy the rest of his career elsewhere.