The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, wit33 said:

 

I value competence at the QB position. Carr provides competence, but at too great of a cost. In my post, I shared you don’t pay this style of QB 12-15% of your cap, it makes it difficult and your committed to him. The team acquiring him will have to take on some brutal cap hits for next 3 years. Sure, if Raider want to pay half his salary and we get around 20mil per season, I’m down (not gonna happen). 

 

A large portion of Mayfield's salary and Ryan's salary was absorbed by the teams who traded for them.  While I was ok with Rivera trading for Wentz I also thought they were had in that deal and said so at the time.  I do think though the Colts had Rivera by the balls to some extent because the Commanders was far from a cool destination spot so I think Rivera had to pay overretail perhaps.

 

As for Carr I've flat out said multiple times, only if its the Raiders taking on a chunk of that salary. 

 

1 hour ago, wit33 said:

 

We have always differed on what we are inclined to pay this level of QB. I also factor in playmaking and overall mobility highly… more than most, so I’m already in a negative bias towards Carr admittedly. 

 

We differ on how you categiorize some of the players.  It doesn't come off to me you watch these guys much.  Yet, you have strong opinions about how these guys are the same.

 

1 hour ago, wit33 said:

 

Yes, this how I’ve operated from 10 plus years on this board. Can careless about old norms or narratives. The NFL narrative has been to overpay for mediocrity and at times competence at the QB spot. 
 

 

Theismann's point is form YOUR own opinion on that specific QB  (implied the next part or at least that's how i took it) versus lumping them into a category or buying in what people say about them. All you are doing here is saying you don't believe in one narrative but instead you believe in another.  That's not what Theismann was getting at.  He was getting at watch these QBs actually play, trust what YOU see. As he said trust your eyes. 

 

You've talked before about what Raider fans think of him.  i don't give a rats behind about what some Raiders fans think of Carr.  I make up my own mind based on what I see when I watch him.  When I watched Stafford over the years, I couldn't give a rats behind about Lion fans being frustrated about him not being a playoff QB.  That's a narrative.  That's other people's opinions.  I saw a dude with a rocket arm and with sneaky good mobility who would make clutch throws.  I didn't know if I was right or wrong about Stafford would look like a different dude in a different setting but I made my own guess based on what I thought about what I saw with his specific play.  It was about Stafford specifically.  Not about what tier some categorized them in.  Not what the fans thought.  Not about name that other QB that others put in the same category.

 

You talk about mobility.  I probably talk about it even more than you do it, I do most of it on that draft thread.  But to me you are missing a category of mobility that indeed matters.  To me its not running QBs versus non-running QBs.  There is another categorry and that is QBs with wheels that can escape pressure but don't run much.   Carr to me fits that to a tee.  So did Stafford. 

 

You see Carr as a pure pocket QB.  I see a dude who is faster than Alex Smith.  He runs in the 4.6's and if you watch him enough you can see he has mobilty in the pocket.  He's not a runner by any stretch but his wheels in the pocket are above average.   If someone like Andy Reid managed him, I'd think he'd run for more yards than he has.  He's super fluid with getting balls in his play makers hands on the first level.  His accuracy on the 2nd-3rd level is hit and miss but he certainly has arm strength.  I like him.  Don't love him.

 

Part of the reason why I am out on Wentz is he seems stiff in the pocket.  I don't need him to run but I need to see some escapability.  I see none of that with Wentz.  Carr does have some wheels to escape pressure.

 

1 hour ago, wit33 said:

 

 

I’m a pro Jimmy G guy, but must be at 5% of the cap or so. Get him and draft a young stud. 

 

 

  I think 5% is a fantasy.  But I'd be with you if so.

 

1 hour ago, wit33 said:

I was open to Darnolds services due to my number 1 metric for a QB is ability to manipulate the pocket and extend plays and he’s pretty effective in this area. I had no other opinion on him other than that. He’s been terrible as you predicted. 

 

You kept referencing  Darnold's biggest run highlight in his career at the time, which was on youtube.  I told you back then it doesn't define his play.  For a big dude he has good escapbility.  But sorry so does Carr.  Carr is also faster than Darnold by a decent margin. 

Edited November 17, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[goskins10]

1 hour ago, Renegade7 said:

Everytime I see posts about cutting Wentz, whether the next step is bringing back Taylor as a backup or not, it really is unnerving not seeing any follow up to the plan in the same.

 

1. Cut Wentz

2. Bring Taylor back as a backup

3. ....

4. PROFIT

 

Finally seeing more convos on who's the starter in 2023 if it isn't either of them is encouraging, because the options are just as concerning.

 

If you are talking about in here thats really not true. Most every post I have seen about cutting Wentz includes either going after a top QB in the draft or another top FA QB like Carr. Even the most diehard hivers have resigned themselves to TH is not the long term solution (looking at you @zCommander 🙂)  I personally prefer gonig the route of the draft - and yes I would sell out even from a low draft position. But if they insisted on gonig the FA or trade route then Carr is about the only one I want. 

 

I will say I find it interesting thgat in the same post calling out others with a broad stroke you did not provide your preferred direction either.  🙂  

 

I believe your postion, and why you posted the above, is that you want Carson back (sorry if I have that wrong). I personally think outside a ****ing miracle that would literly be the worst possible decision the team could make. He carries two more seasons of $28M+ on the CAP and for what? A guy with a big arm who overthrows check downs, can't move in the pocket, and coughs up a fur ball at the worst possible moment. And by miracle I mean maybe he gets in the games somehow and figures it out and the issues were all the line. I find that very unlikely since he has had the exact same issues for all 3 teams, But it's possible.

 

As for starting Wentz now or in a few weeks to see if he can get it together, outside a complete collapse (yes like last year LOL) you leave TH in until the team is out of contention. Then bring in Howell. Let him test the waters.

 

Fair or not Wentz just does not have the same support in the locker room as TH does. TH is anything but the long term answer but in this moment the team has his back and in a big way. Cut Carson and go get a QB in the draft, or if they insist, another FA. Roseman does make sense in that you have to keep swinging until you connect. It's the most important position on the field. 

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

57 minutes ago, NickyJ said:

The Vikings sound like they're going to stop the post-win chains ceremony because of Heinicke. If the Vikings want to make it equal, they need Kirk to start wearing shoes with the team colors of whoever they beat.

 

 

 

They were talking on 980 that another Vikings player said that Heinicke doesn't belong in the same conversaton with Kirk or something like that in the context of the chains.  I couldn't find the actual comment.

 

But lol, its odd how it seems to bother the Vikings players or at least some of them.

[Renegade7]

@goskins10

 

Yes, my post is definetly catered to posts outside this thread, and if I miss stuff in here, that's fine, because it does seem like most posts are more open ended on the replacements for the two we have on the roster.

 

You seem like many to have your mind made up on Wentz, I'm keeping my mind open on Wentz if for any reason because we won't draft a QB and not liking options outside the two we have.

 

Bird in hand...

[Renegade7]

51 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

They were talking on 980 that another Vikings player said that Heinicke doesn't belong in the same conversaton with Kirk or something like that in the context of the chains.  I couldn't find the actual comment.

 

But lol, its odd how it seems to bother the Vikings players or at least some of them.

 

I want to see them in the playoffs now...

[petey hodge]

Did Ron name a QB1 yet for Sunday?

 

 

edited.  Oh Nevermind

 

 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/35041479/commanders-qb-taylor-heinicke-start-again-sunday

 

 

Edited November 17, 2022 by petey hodge

[zCommander]

1 hour ago, goskins10 said:

Even the most diehard hivers have resigned themselves to TH is not the long term solution (looking at you @zCommander 🙂) 

 

You like poking into the wasps nest. Don't you? 

 

My stance in the offseason was to start TH for two reasons. 1. To see if Taylor is any better (I wasn't too hung up on his arm strength but liked everything else that he brought to the table) with better weapons and a healthier squad (covid and injuries last year left a question mark at the end for me). 2. With Taylor starting this year you can buy time to get your QB in the better QB class of 2023 instead of the weak QB class of 2022. I also said if you have to go QB in 2022 then do so but in later rounds instead. 

 

We still would have had Dotson and Howell and starting TH and no Wentz - kinda like right now. 

 

So I fought on that hill and against getting a one year rental and plenty here said to cut TH and don't want to see him on the field at all. Matter of fact cut TH so they don't have to hear his name ever again. And then after we got Howell it was the same, cut TH and make Howell the backup. Some even said Howell will replace TH as the backup after training camp. I, on the other hand, saw more value in TH being the backup instead and said you keep him this year as the backup and then cut next year if you have to since his contract would be over. 

 

So my plan, was that simple. Start TH build the lines and get your QB in 2023. Now if Howell turns out to be that QB in 2023 then party on. 

 

If Ron had called me I could have saved him and Dan $28 mil and draft picks. Who's the better business man now 

 

 

Edited November 17, 2022 by zCommander

[Cooleyfan1993]

2 minutes ago, zCommander said:

If Ron had called me I could have saved him and Dan $28 mil and draft picks. Who's the better business man now 

 

 

Sorry man, I tried saying to Ron multiple times “Ron, call zCommander, he’ll save you quite a bit of money!”, but he never did  

[zCommander]

9 minutes ago, Cooleyfan1993 said:

Sorry man, I tried saying to Ron multiple times “Ron, call zCommander, he’ll save you quite a bit of money!”, but he never did  

 

I am sure Dan with his big head and ego got in the way lol

[zCommander]

Taylor's stock rises up 1 spot

Rank

23

1

 

Taylor Heinicke

Washington Commanders · Year 5

2022 stats: 4 games | 62 pct | 840 pass yds | 6.9 ypa | 5 pass TD | 4 INT | 60 rush yds | 1 rush TD | 1 fumble

 

I accept Taylor Heinicke as an imperfect signal-caller who remains completely engaging as a spirited house of fire unafraid to rip the ball downfield. His chemistry with Terry McLaurin over four starts has turned the wideout into football's eighth-ranked fantasy player at his position during that span. The duo punctured Philly's defense on key third downs and accomplished enough to overcome a fourth-quarter pick. Nothing says Heinicke like celebrating with childlike glee after an unnecessary roughness penalty on Brandon Graham sealed the deal in Washington's huge upset win. Soon after, the Commanders quarterback was seen nursing a Busch Light and doing his best Kirk Cousins.

[88Comrade2000]

No to any big deals in 23. The team is for sale and we don’t need the team to be saddled with some big contract for the qb. If you’re moving on from Wentz just get the stopgap qb for a year.

 

The long term qb decision will be decided in 24 with new owners Gm and likely new coach.   

QB is the most important position and you don’t saddle ownership with another long term Deal for a qb , some team wants to move on from.

 

If we are truly close to sale in Jan/Feb then Dan should order Ron not to make any big deals, that would be up

to the new ownership. Getting yet another veteran qb like Carr would fall under a big deal. No. Honestly a qb roster of Taylor/ Sam for 23 will be fine because you know you will be getting that long term qb in the future.

[wit33]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

A large portion of Mayfield's salary and Ryan's salary was absorbed by the teams who traded for them.  While I was ok with Rivera trading for Wentz I also thought they were had in that deal and said so at the time.  I do think though the Colts had Rivera by the balls to some extent because the Commanders was far from a cool destination spot so I think Rivera had to pay overretail perhaps.

Not totally sure why you’re bringing these guys up, might be missing the point. 

 

Deals for Mayfield, Stafford (2 years $43mil), and Ryan (2 years $53mil) were good great deal financially for the acquiring them. Mayfield doesn’t belong on this list, but he only counts $5mil against Panthers cap. 
 

David Carr will represent the opposite for the acquiring team. 
 

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

As for Carr I've flat out said multiple times, only if its the Raiders taking on a chunk of that salary. 
 

 

Ya man, we are aligned on this. Have I steered you away from believing this is the case?

 

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

We differ on how you categiorize some of the players.  It doesn't come off to me you watch these guys much.  Yet, you have strong opinions about how these guys are the same.

 

I catch 2-3 Raider games a year. As I’ve mentioned, my buddy is big time Raider fan, so I get exposed to watching them more often than other teams. 

 

Tannenhill, mostly prime time games, highlights, and playoffs. 
 

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

Theismann's point is form YOUR own opinion on that specific QB versus lumping them into a category or buying in what people say about them. All you are doing here is saying you don't believe in one narrative but instead you believe in another.  That's not what Theismann was getting at.  He was getting at watch these QBs actually play, forget what other people say about them and trust what YOU see.

It’s all part of the soup for me and much more so with players that don’t play for Washington. I even put some value into PFF grades on Washington guys, especially interior guys and I watch every game.  

 

 

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

You've talked before about what Raider fans think of him.  i don't give a rats behind about what some Raiders fans think of Carr.  I make up my own mind based on what I see when I watch him.  When I watched Stafford over the years, I couldn't give a rats behind about Lion fans being frustrated about him not being a playoff QB.  That's a narrative.  That's other people's opinions.  I saw a dude with a rocket arm and with sneaky good mobility who would make clutch throws.  I didn't know if I was right or wrong about Stafford would look like a different dude in a different setting but I made my own guess based on what I thought about what I saw with his specific play.  It was about Stafford specifically.  Not about what tier some categorized them in.  Not what the fans thought.  Not about name that other QB that others put in the same category.

 

Ya, I had Stafford in category above competent starters, in large part due to his aggressiveness and ability to manipulate the pocket within the pocket. He’s special in terms of maneuvering in the pocket, an art form that will be lost as the position continues to become more and more athletic. His peaks were elite. 
 

Carr will not carry nearly the same weight if thrown around as a trade option IMO. You appear to be putting Carr and Stafford in same category, I disagree. Do I feel Care can win a Super Bowl? Yes indeed. I also think Jimmy G or Goff can as well with a great situation and most likely being paid less than 8% of the cap. 
 

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

You talk about mobility.  I probably talk about it even more than you do it, I do most of it on that draft thread.  But to me you are missing a category of mobility that indeed matters.  To me its not running QBs versus non-running QBs.  There is another categorry and that is QBs with wheels that can escape pressure but don't run much.   Carr to me fits that to a tee.  So did Stafford. 
 

 

We appear to be apart on Carrs ability to manipulate the pocket and escape versus Stafford.  Stafford is special in how maneuvers to buy time and create windows (on similar level as Brady). 
 

Carr appears to be a good athlete, but he’s found it difficult to have it become a super power for him in his career or something he can lean on consistently when needed. 
 

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

You see Carr as a pure pocket QB.  I see a dude who is faster than Alex Smith.  He runs in the 4.6's and if you watch him enough you can see he has mobilty in the pocket.  He's not a runner by any stretch but his wheels in the pocket are above average.   If someone like Andy Reid managed him, I'd think he'd run for more yards than he has.  He's super fluid with getting balls in his play makers hands on the first level.  His accuracy on the 2nd-3rd level is hit and miss but he certainly has arm strength.  I like him.  Don't love him.

I like the Alex Smith comparison in terms of athleticism and overall pocket awareness and skill. I’d give Amith the edge in ability to create and extend, but can see an argument for Carr. 
 

 

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Part of the reason why I am out on Wentz is he seems stiff in the pocket.  I don't need him to run but I need to see some escapability.  I see none of that with Wentz.  Carr does have some wheels to escape pressure.

 

This is where we differ on Carr, I think it would be similar frustration felt with Carr as experienced with Wentz in terms of escapability and awareness in those situations.

On top of the lack of escapability, the dude doesn’t throw touchdowns. His teams have always been average to below in terms of scoring. 
 

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

  I think 5% is a fantasy.  But I'd be with you if so.

 

I believe the market for this level of QB is plummeting and they’re in for a rude awakening in coming years. My speculative position. 
 

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

You kept referencing  Darnold's biggest run highlight in his career at the time, which was on youtube.  I told you back then it doesn't define his play.  For a big dude he has good escapbility.  But sorry so does Carr.  Carr is also faster than Darnold by a decent margin. 

 

It’s not just about speed (as you know) but spatial awareness, quickness, throwing from different platforms and hat I liked about Darnold. This is literally all that I shared liking about the dude lol I believe he’s special in that regard, everything else is no bueno. 

Edited November 17, 2022 by wit33

[goskins10]

8 hours ago, Renegade7 said:

@goskins10

 

Yes, my post is definetly catered to posts outside this thread, and if I miss stuff in here, that's fine, because it does seem like most posts are more open ended on the replacements for the two we have on the roster.

 

Not seeing this at all but whatever. 

 

8 hours ago, Renegade7 said:

 

 

You seem like many to have your mind made up on Wentz, I'm keeping my mind open on Wentz if for any reason because we won't draft a QB and not liking options outside the two we have.

 

Bird in hand...

 

 

Yes, I have definitly made my mind up on Wentz. Before the entire QB carousel around th legaue, I listed Wentz as one of the worst options. Then they made the trade. I looked into the stats and thought there might be something there. Maybe he was just in th wrong situatrions. So I allowed mysaelf to be hopeful. Then he played and all the same **** he was doing at the other two places he was doing here. And they have nothing to do with oline, running game, WR tools, etc. It is him. He has a cannon of an arm and makes nice downfield thrtows. But that is it. He makes really stupid decisions at the absolute worst times. I think I might be more mobile than him (yes an exaggeration but man that guy can't move) and he is highly inaccurate on what should be the easiest of throws. That is not changing. 

 

Not sure why you are so sure they will not draft a QB. But even if not, I would rather try someone else, anyone else than Wentz. Cut him and use that money elsewhere. One of the biggest selling points of the trade for me was that out after one ear. They need to exercise that option to get out while the getting is good. 

 

If the bird in hand is dead, unless you want lunch it's worthless. 

 

Edited November 17, 2022 by goskins10
typos

[Renegade7]

@goskins10 if you haven't "seen it", you dont care, so neither do I.

 

Anyone isn't better then Wentz, or you'd be talking about giving Taylor the reigns for 2023, that's the type of hyperbole that looks more like showing off how angry you are over Wentz versus what to actually do next.

 

The contract can be restructured so we aren't trapping ourselves into a worse one with someone like Goff or Jimmy G, average ass QBs that folks may be bidding for and taking chunks of cap they don't deserve anymore then you claim Wentz does.

 

But they'll do that before they draft a QB because of their pattern since being here, the last two offseasons they tried to get veteran QBs before the draft even happened, their first year they choose to give Haskins a chance and draft Young, then cut Haskins the same year before going on to look for stop gaps then eventually trade for a veteran versus picking a rookie to develop like every other rebuild known to mankind.  They've said they are in win now mode and the receipts show that.

 

I've said repeatedly that the whole team is playing better now then even a month ago, including changes on defense and players coming back from injury, that giving all that credit to Taylor and blame on Wentz wasn't fair.  Taylor turns the ball over and misses wide open players as well, there's no way for me to look at the Colts game and with a straight face say Wentz would do as bad or worse.

 

We can't just get the cap space back and wing it at QB like that's worked at all for us this century.  Again, I didn't see any of this "he's done and has to go talk" after the Jaguars game, and I bring that up again because Taylor has 5 TD passes in 4 games this year when Wentz had 4 TD passes in that Jaguars game alone.  So yes, I want to make sure he's absolutely not the answer because we absolutely do not have another one right now.

 

And "anyone else" isn't a plan that's ever worked for us, me being angry about being frustrated being trapped without an actual answer or indication our franchise has a plan if that doesn't work won't change that.

[goskins10]

5 hours ago, Renegade7 said:

@goskins10 if you haven't "seen it", you dont care, so neither do I.

 

I assume this means that you believe I have dismissed Carson out of hand, without even giving him a fair chance. I would strongly disagree. I gave very specific reasons as to why I believe he has not and will not work out here. I would say you want him to work out so bad you have ignored the obvious. LOL

 

5 hours ago, Renegade7 said:

 

Anyone isn't better then Wentz, or you'd be talking about giving Taylor the reigns for 2023, that's the type of hyperbole that looks more like showing off how angry you are over Wentz versus what to actually do next.

 

You may want to actually read comments before responding. I said - and here is the quote: 

 

6 hours ago, goskins10 said:

I would rather try someone else, anyone else than Wentz.

 

There is a big difference between trying anyone else, and saying anyone else is better. Believing he is NOT the answer does NOT mean anyone else is the answer. It means you need to keep looking. Nothing more, nothing less. So may want to read more carefully before throwing words around like hyperbole when it's not there.

 

 

5 hours ago, Renegade7 said:

 

The contract can be restructured so we aren't trapping ourselves into a worse one with someone like Goff or Jimmy G, average ass QBs that folks may be bidding for and taking chunks of cap they don't deserve anymore then you claim Wentz does.

 

Absolutely a horrible move to restructure. I do not want a QB on the team that has been traded by two teams already, has shown he cannot be the starter here for the very same reasons he was traded by the other teams! LOL  (If he is open to restructuring it's because either he never made it back on the field or he did and was still ****). 

 

Agian, I was very specific I did not want any of the - as you put it stop gap QBs. I don't l want Goff, or Jimmy G. Only one I would consider is Carr and even then I would prefer to draft a QB and go with Howell and the rookie. Maybe bring TH back but make it clear he is here for insurance only. 

 

 

5 hours ago, Renegade7 said:

I've said repeatedly that the whole team is playing better now then even a month ago, including changes on defense and players coming back from injury, that giving all that credit to Taylor and blame on Wentz wasn't fair.  Taylor turns the ball over and misses wide open players as well, there's no way for me to look at the Colts game and with a straight face say Wentz would do as bad or worse.

 

And I have said repeatedly the issues with Wentz have nothing to do with how the rest of the team is playing. And agian this conversation is NOT a Carson vs TH one that YOU keep trying to make it. My reasons for cutting bait with Carson for next year HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH TH!!!  Is that clear enough, LOL? 

 

I do not want Carson's contract for next year as I do not see him as the long term answer. Why double down on the mistake made when there is a clear out? You still think there is something there. Ok, fiar enough. I think you incredibly worong but to each thier own.But at least stop trying to make this a TH vs Wentz conversation. Itr's not and never was. 

 

 

The rest is mostly based on things I did not say. You throw words like "winging it" and then make the case against TH (again trying to make this a TH vs Carson conversation when it's not)  Yes I said I said I would prefer anyone other than Wentz but made it clear I wanted to go all out for a QB in the draft. Not sure how that is winging it. The CAP can then be used to help build the team around him. Oline, LB, FS maybe another TE - resigning Payne. Again, I am not a TH fanboy. I thought I made it clear as **** he is not the long term answer and I never saw him as such. I stated it again above. Not sure what else I can do for you. I am pretty sure he will come back to earth like he did last year. The horse shoe runs out of luck sooner or later. But in this moment you have to give him his due. The team is behind him and they are putting up Ws, yes sometimes despite how he plays. 

 

So before taking your anger out on me when I thought we were having a QB conversation, slow down and read what was actually said and respond to that, not respond to what you want to becasue you are pissed at the team. You keep making arguments for things I never said as a repsonse to my comments. 

 

 

Edited November 17, 2022 by goskins10

[Skinsinparadise]

9 hours ago, Renegade7 said:

 

I want to see them in the playoffs now...

 

That would be super cool.  Me, too.

[Skinsinparadise]

10 hours ago, wit33 said:

Not totally sure why you’re bringing these guys up, might be missing the point. 

 

Deals for Mayfield, Stafford (2 years $43mil), and Ryan (2 years $53mil) were good great deal financially for the acquiring them. Mayfield doesn’t belong on this list, but he only counts $5mil against Panthers cap. 
 

 

 

You are totally missing my point.  My point is when you make a trade with a team -- yes it is possible for teams to absorb a large chunk of their salary.  I flat out made my point about it that way multiple times.  Here you are just doubiling down on my point while explaining to me that its good when teams take on salary.  Yep, that's exactly my point.  And it does happen.

 

10 hours ago, wit33 said:

 

David Carr will represent the opposite for the acquiring team. 
 

 

 

10 hours ago, wit33 said:

 

Ya man, we are aligned on this. Have I steered you away from believing this is the case?

 

 

 

If we are, what's the point of re-explaining Carr's salary and explaining to me how the examples I gave are different than Carr considering his salary.   My examples are specifically about how teams can absorb other teams contracts. 

 

10 hours ago, wit33 said:

 

I catch 2-3 Raider games a year. As I’ve mentioned, my buddy is big time Raider fan, so I get exposed to watching them more often than other teams. 

 

Tannenhill, mostly prime time games, highlights, and playoffs. 

It’s all part of the soup for me and much more so with players that don’t play for Washington. I even put some value into PFF grades on Washington guys, especially interior guys and I watch every game.  

 

 

Ya, I had Stafford in category above competent starters, in large part due to his aggressiveness and ability to manipulate the pocket within the pocket. He’s special in terms of maneuvering in the pocket, an art form that will be lost as the position continues to become more and more athletic. His peaks were elite. 
 

Carr will not carry nearly the same weight if thrown around as a trade option IMO. You appear to be putting Carr and Stafford in same category, I disagree. Do I feel Care can win a Super Bowl? Yes indeed. I also think Jimmy G or Goff can as well with a great situation and most likely being paid less than 8% of the cap. 
 

We appear to be apart on Carrs ability to manipulate the pocket and escape versus Stafford.  Stafford is special in how maneuvers to buy time and create windows (on similar level as Brady). 
 

Carr appears to be a good athlete, but he’s found it difficult to have it become a super power for him in his career or something he can lean on consistently when needed. 
 

I like the Alex Smith comparison in terms of athleticism and overall pocket awareness and skill. I’d give Amith the edge in ability to create and extend, but can see an argument for Carr. 
 

It’s not just about speed (as you know) but spatial awareness, quickness, throwing from different platforms and hat I liked about Darnold. This is literally all that I shared liking about the dude lol I believe he’s special in that regard, everything else is no bueno. 

 

Carr's speed isn't a superpower.  Even though he is one of the faster QBs in the league.  But WHEN he wants to scamper for a first down and escape pressure he can.  He's no statue back there by a long shot.

 

10 hours ago, wit33 said:

 

 

This is where we differ on Carr, I think it would be similar frustration felt with Carr as experienced with Wentz in terms of escapability and awareness in those situations.

On top of the lack of escapability, the dude doesn’t throw touchdowns. His teams have always been average to below in terms of scoring. 
 

 

I believe the market for this level of QB is plummeting and they’re in for a rude awakening in coming years. My speculative position. 
 

 

It’s not just about speed (as you know) but spatial awareness, quickness, throwing from different platforms and hat I liked about Darnold. This is literally all that I shared liking about the dude lol I believe he’s special in that regard, everything else is no bueno. 

 

Similar mobility to the current Wentz IMHO is beyond ridiculous.  Carr coming off of his injury years ago initially was reluctant to move much.  Before that and since he can move and has. 

 

As to Stafford, I've said I liked Stafford more.  But in my book, in that 2nd tier of QB's he's the closest to Stafford in that if you take him out of that environment and plug him with a team that he doesn't have to carry on his back like he has to do with the Raiders -- i think you'd see a major difference.  I don't feel that way at all with Jimmy G or Tannehill or Goff. 

 

Stafford is more of an off platform guy than Carr. Both have strong arms.  Stafford's arm is stronger.  Carr is faster and can scamper for yards if he chooses easier than Stafford but Stafford isn't bad at it and is willing to do it more.  Both IMO have similar weaknesses -- don't give either a clean pocket, pressure, pressure and then take advantage of their inconsistent accuracy on the 2nd and third level.  IMO for the same reasons neither is elite. 

 

Tannehill, Goff, Jimmy G are just about pure game managers. With the game on the line both Stafford and Carr have shown to be super clutch.  I've posted numbers for both on that front before.  Both ironically are having rare down years on that front and losing some close games this year.  That's why I think you can buy Carr low this year.  Carr's ceiling is a peg better at least IMO than Jimmy G, Tannehill and Goff.   Tannehill has some sneaky mobility -- don't hate him -- but I've hated him in a key context for me over his career which is big moments in games, with Miami in particular he seemed to fold in big spots in big games. 

 

lol, Madden has Carr's speed rating at 82, that's pretty good.  He's not slow, he can move. 

 

Edited November 17, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[DJHJR86]

16 hours ago, Renegade7 said:

Plenty of points to why Taylor should start instead, so no need to cherry pick stats to make more.

 

It's not "cherry picking" stats when pointing out that there wasn't a "largely better" difference between the two.

 

16 hours ago, mistertim said:

At the end of the day I think Heinicke is who he has been. Good backup with a poor arm.

 

And I did not say that he was much improved.  Someone said that Wentz's stats were "largely better" and they were not.  Also, this means that Wentz is who the Colts knew what he was.  Good backup with a good arm.

Edited November 17, 2022 by DJHJR86

[Renegade7]

6 hours ago, goskins10 said:

 

Not sure why you are so sure they will not draft a QB. But even if not, I would rather try someone else, anyone else than Wentz.

 

We talkin past each other, no reading comprehension issue here.  Never took you for a Taylor fan boy (and why i didnt say that), jus someone entirely done with Wentz.

 

And that's the problem, because neither of us want another overpriced Mediocre veteran but I'm jus as convinced they won't draft a QB as you are Wentz is done.

 

This is not a good situation, coaching staff is stubborn.  Saying there are issues with this team that have nothing to do with Wentz does not mean Wentz doesn't have issues that have nothing to do with the team, thought I acknowledged when saying they both turn the ball over and miss open receivers.

 

The part I don't think you or others is getting is i believe we are trapped with Wentz, not that I'm convinced Wentz is the answer.  The cost for Carr is going to be egregious in context to impact on cap and picks we need but keep trading for QBs, not to mention he's already in early 30s.  And the other veteran options disturb me as well. 

 

They won't draft one, I really wish they would in first round, I wish they would, but lower that pick is, the less likely (they'll make case they need a veteran to win now, not to lose time trying to develop someone).

 

So stop trying to convince me Wentz is done, I'm not convinced he is and it's in our best interest to make sure because this team is going to do something equally stupid if he actually is to replace him, and that would be like a double tap to a roster that for most part around QB and oline looks ready to do serious damage.

[Renegade7]

40 minutes ago, DJHJR86 said:

 

It's not "cherry picking" stats when pointing out that there wasn't a "largely better" difference between the two.

 

 

At one point before Wentz went out, he was in the top 5 in passing yards and were at least top 10 in overall passing offense all the way into his last game against Chicago.

 

We are now a bottom 11 passing offense.  The argument Wentz passed more needs to be in context we all agree Taylor is only being asked to pass as much as deemed neccesary, that we are running 40-50 times a game for reason such as asking him to pass that much would be a bad idea.

 

Similar argument can be made maybe Wentz shouldn't be passing that much when he comes back either, I hope that's what we do, stupid to go back to what wasn't working.  

[Rex Tomb]

5 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

At one point before Wentz went out, he was in the top 5 in passing yards and were at least top 10 in overall passing offense all the way into his last game against Chicago.

 

We are now a bottom 11 passing offense.  The argument Wentz passed more needs to be in context we all agree Taylor is only being asked to pass as much as deemed neccesary, that we are running 40-50 times a game for reason such as asking him to pass that much would be a bad idea.

 

Similar argument can be made maybe Wentz shouldn't be passing that much when he comes back either, I hope that's what we do, stupid to go back to what wasn't working.  

I think the gameplan would stay the same with Carson in there - we've finally found our identity for this season.  However, TH's ability to escape the rush and his clear connection with his teammates gives him intangibles that Carson doesn't have. TH's teammates believe in him and play with a different energy with him in there.   If Ron made the switch to Wentz without a reason, he would likely lose the locker room. 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

So it’s been a few days now, the glow has faded some.  Is it too soon to say that the “team plays harder for him” and all the subsequent takes are not engraved in stone?

 

We had all these same debates last season.  Terry and the gang were full of great things to say about him.  Towards the end of the season though, the smiles were frowns and looks of frustration - either on the field or en route to the blue tent.  At the end of the season there was no talk of how he had earned the right to start/compete to start because of his intangibles or anything like that.  While the fans pointed to Covid, I didn’t hear that from anyone in the locker room, coaches or players.

 

I do think this years overall team is better and the competition is worse, so there’s a greater chance we don’t see the same fallout we saw last season.  But as cool as it is to grind out and win these games that bring a tear to Bill Callahan’s eye - it’s tough for me to see this as sustainable, even against lesser competition.

 

Edited November 17, 2022 by BatteredFanSyndrome

[lovemaskins]

You guys can argue…. Damn!

[Renegade7]

19 minutes ago, Rex Tomb said:

I think the gameplan would stay the same with Carson in there - we've finally found our identity for this season.  However, TH's ability to escape the rush and his clear connection with his teammates gives him intangibles that Carson doesn't have. TH's teammates believe in him and play with a different energy with him in there.   If Ron made the switch to Wentz without a reason, he would likely lose the locker room. 

 

I trust Ron to make clear why he's making the change if he does around something the team sees in practice as well, because you are right there's a risk, jus not buying its super high.  People like playing for Taylor, I'm not convinced the team doesn't also acknowledge or even better understand his limitations then we do as fans.

[goskins10]

1 hour ago, Renegade7 said:

 

We talkin past each other, no reading comprehension issue here.  Never took you for a Taylor fan boy (and why i didnt say that), jus someone entirely done with Wentz.

 

And that's the problem, because neither of us want another overpriced Mediocre veteran but I'm jus as convinced they won't draft a QB as you are Wentz is done.

 

Not the way your responses read but you are probably saying the same thing. So fair enough. I do agree with the bold. I am not sure what makes you think they will not draft a QB. I provide specifics as to why I believe Carson is done. Can you provide specifcs as to why youj are convinced they will not draft a QB? 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Renegade7 said:

 

The part I don't think you or others is getting is i believe we are trapped with Wentz, not that I'm convinced Wentz is the answer.  The cost for Carr is going to be egregious in context to impact on cap and picks we need but keep trading for QBs, not to mention he's already in early 30s.  And the other veteran options disturb me as well. 

 

It;s not that we are not getting we think you are dead wrong. There is a difference. And you are more than welcome to that opinion but don't state your oppionion as if it's fact. It's the way you see it. Ok, fair enough. I and others see it differently. 

 

 

1 hour ago, Renegade7 said:

 

They won't draft one, I really wish they would in first round, I wish they would, but lower that pick is, the less likely (they'll make case they need a veteran to win now, not to lose time trying to develop someone).

 

Please provide your proof they will not draft a QB. You may be right, but to be that emphatic needs some proof, data, facts to support. 

 

1 hour ago, Renegade7 said:

 

So stop trying to convince me Wentz is done, I'm not convinced he is and it's in our best interest to make sure because this team is going to do something equally stupid if he actually is to replace him, and that would be like a double tap to a roster that for most part around QB and oline looks ready to do serious damage.

 

It was gonig well till the end here. I am not trying to convince you of anything. I am telling you how I see it. I even said - and here is the quote - 🙂: 

 

5 hours ago, goskins10 said:

You still think there is something there. Ok, fair enough.