The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

 

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

Keep in mind national media (ESPN especially) have generally been doing fluff pieces and brushing aside all allegations regarding Deshaun Watson.

 

Sometimes narratives done by national media are worth less than the time spent reading it.

 

National media dissing Wentz, which all local media seem confused about should be a telling sign that national media is just saying stuff to say stuff.  It doesn't matter.

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

 

 

[Conn]

4 hours ago, redskinss said:

My biggest fear with Wentz is that he'll have a resurgent year, we'll give him a big extension and then he'll revert back to the guy who got kicked out of town the last two years.

Consistency has always been one of his biggest problems and even if he has a year close to what he had in 2017 I don't see him doing it year in and year out.

 

But if he has a good year this year we'll cross that (see if he can maintain it) bridge when we get to it.

 

For now it'd be nice just to have a professional level quarterback even for one year.

Oh man I don’t worry about this at all. If he somehow reaches near THAT level again, I’d buy that it’s for real. Because the guy’s career has been weird—generationally weird. Drafted as high as he was (after multiple ballsy pre-draft trade-ups by the Eagles) out of SDSU which is already weird. Then while playing at an MVP caliber level at a young age not anywhere near a typical QB’s prime, he tears his ACL and has to watch his backup put together a fluke run and win HIS franchise its only SB while becoming a hometown hero? And then it was never his franchise again, he never recovered there and got comfortable again.
 

I mean that series of events will never happen again it’s so weird. That would really mess with a lot of guys—physically, having to adjust your game after the injury, and mentally, having to learn to be at peace with that situation and how your whole career and relationship with your franchise changed  so absurdly…clearly it hasn’t been done without some bumps in the road, but if he gets to a place where he can perform near to 2017 levels again—I’d just assume the long road back was finally completed and that he was finally in a good place mentally and physically comparable to where he was before it all went down. It would be an epic redemption story, but that aspect of it wouldn’t be unheard of in the sports world. Just the specifics of it. 
 

I don’t see the above happening of course. But I think a realistic outcome is pro bowl or better type production for a while if we’re lucky. We’d have to be way luckier than we are for the better outcome—but the guy is a workaholic with talent and a chip on his shoulder so I will admit there’s a non-zero chance at it. 

[Ghost of]

22 hours ago, Always A Commander Never A Captain said:

Keep in mind national media (ESPN especially) have generally been doing fluff pieces and brushing aside all allegations regarding Deshaun Watson.

 

Sometimes narratives done by national media are worth less than the time spent reading it.

 

National media dissing Wentz, which all local media seem confused about should be a telling sign that national media is just saying stuff to say stuff.  It doesn't matter.

Oh, there's a reason they say stuff and it's not just to say stuff, don't get it twisted.

Edited June 9, 2022 by Ghost of

[Skinsinparadise]

 

Albert Breer on 106.7 just now.  Breer is usually balanced.  He was talking about Wentz and the positive article he wrote about him.

 

He thinks Wentz is in a good place now to have a good season.

 

He thinks part of that is he's self reflected.  It was hard not to miss that there wasn't much demand for Wentz in the trade market among other things so he got the sense Wentz is humbled and reflected on where he needs to improve.  Breer I've heard has a great relationship with Rivera so maybe some of this was fed directly to him that way. 

 

2 other major differences for Wentz now with the Commanders versus before

 

A. More organic relationships 

B.  Wants to play free -- without putting pressure on himself like he has in the past 

 

Breer said what he's heard about Wentz in the locker room is that while he's not a bad guy -- he's a bit image conscious and doesn't come off as a real dude according to some teammates in both Philly and Indy.  He comes off to some a bit forced as to trying to show teammates about how hard he's working, etc, among other things.

 

Breer thinks people want Wentz to be a regular guy and not worry about putting on airs in the locker room.  He mentioned Brady for all his celebrity is a real dude in the locker room and liked by most of his teammates.  And Breer thinks Wentz is off to a good start on that front socializing with teammates, etc. 

 

He hinted that Reich wanted Wentz to stay.  Irsay wanted him gone, and hinted probably Ballard wanted him gone too.  Ballard takes pride on the culture he helped build with some key players in that locker room which he defined as "tough and edgy".  And Wentz didn't fit that theme for whatever reason.   Adding my own editorial, Wentz is plenty tough.  As far as edgy goes it sounds a lot like the same narrative about the Eagles locker room back in the day where Wentz was a G rated dude among R rated teammates.   

 

If so that's another thing Keim mentioned that should help him here which is this locker room supposedly is a pretty quiet one compared to what Wentz had elsewhere so Wentz might be more of a natural fit personality wise here. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 8, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Acworth skins fan]

6 hours ago, goskins10 said:

 

 

i lived near Indy for 10 yrs.  It’s a fun city.  Went to Atl last year   Probably go to Det as my son lives there.  But could still go to Indy.  
 

But I do want to see if we can be competitive before I spend money.   

My wife is a bears fan, we may go to chi town. She has family in south bend.

[Voice_of_Reason]

22 hours ago, FootballZombie said:

 

But like APY you don't know how things are gonna go and if the future numbers are gonna stay that way, especially at QB.  We live in a time where we know full well a lot of players don't see the end of their contracts w/o getting new deals done or cut. Dude is on a 2 year deal and could very well get a new deal next year, which would drastically change how the money situation works out. It will be a contract year for him next year, so regardless of what happens this year, something is likely getting done contract wise for Winston next year. There is a very real possibility that the lingering money gets altered.

I don't think you realize it, but you're making my case for me.  You can't use APY.  HOWEVER, you absolutely CAN look at the guaranteed money and how it is spread out, because it is guaranteed.  Spotrac does a really good job laying it out.  

 

Sure, it might move around, but what the guaranteed amount and the dead cap numbers are the absolute minimum the team will spend against the cap. They CAN alter it, and add MORE dead cap and push it further out.  

 

For Winston's deal, he has $21M guaranteed at signing.  That means, in some way shape or form, he's hitting their cap for a minimum of $21M over time (absent a trade). There is NO WAY they can get out of the deal for less of a hit than that, period.  Now, what they COULD do is extend him after this season, give him more guaranteed money, and push it out further.  But there is no way to lessen the $21M. 

 

So, while you don't know exactly where the numbers will land, because they can be altered (I agree with that part), you do know the absolute minimum of cap hit in aggregate, and you know how it's currently spread out. 

 

With Winston, if he plays well this year, my bet is they extend him for another 3 years. They would take the remaining $17M of cap hit they are absolutely going to have to take, add to it, add 2 more voidable years, and extend him through 2026, and have 3 voidable years through 2029 to spread the additional guaranteed money.

 

But RIGHT NOW, you can absolutely say they are on the hook for $21M for a total cap hit.  The Commanders are on the hook for a total of $28M.  Nothing more.  The Saints are paying later, the Commanders are paying now.  In the end, sure he costs less overall.  He's also not seen as as good a QB, and he's also coming off of a torn ACL.    

 

22 hours ago, FootballZombie said:

I may not be 100% confident in what future money situation, but I do see what he is costing the team right now.

Again, you can be 100% confident what the minimum cost will be over time.  AND even with a trade, the team is responsible for the cap hit of the entire signing bonus (because they have already paid the cash, so when the player is off the roster, they have to account for the already paid cash in the current year's cap.)

 

You can tell a ton about the future by the current contract.  The only thing you can't predict is an extension.  But the guaranteed number CANNOT go down.  You CAN ask players to take a pay-cut from the non-guaranteed component of the contract.  (That's why it's called guaranteed. Nothing can change it.)

 

22 hours ago, FootballZombie said:

 

He is doing practically everything right now. TC is a ways away. Pre-season is in... august?

Yeah, so what?  The deal had to be made in February/March.  He might have still been on crutches at that point. He was injured in November.   You absolutely never, ever know what type of setback could occur.  There is absolutely no way Ron was going to bet this season on Winston's knee recovering in time for practices and TC.  When they made the trade, there is absolutely no way they could have predicted where exactly he would be 3 months from then. Unless they had a DeLorean Time Machine, which they don't.  

 

22 hours ago, FootballZombie said:

He is actively participating in on-field activities now. Lets not act like he is strapped to a wheelchair and can't participate. He is out there building timing the same as other QBs.

 

And again, there was no way to know this in March.  It's a somewhat ludicrous position to take you are going to bet your season on the health of your QBs knee when they are at the very beginning of their recovery.  You can't do that.  It would have been MASSIVELY stupid.  

 

Ron would have had to have been checked into an insane asylum if he really thought that was the right plan:  Sign a QB who Sean Payton didn't trust to throw the ball more than 23 times a game, who's coming off of an ACL injury in which he suffered on Halloween.  So, he would have been 4 months into a major surgery recovery, maybe able to do some light jogging with a brace at that point, nothing more, and you want to trust year 3 to that situation?

 

That's absolute, complete, and total insanity.  It's just massively dumb.  Could it work?  Sure.  Will it?  Extremely doubtful.  

 

22 hours ago, FootballZombie said:

 

We know there were players they liked and chose not to pursue do the Wentz deal.

 

 

In a sanz Wentz environment, who knows who the team would have chosen to pursue, but it seems the team did not want to go after any player of cost after the QB trade before FA started.

I heard JP talk about this on the Pod.  This is true to an extent, but JP was pretty clear there was some speculation in his comments and he was reading tea leaves.  Nobody told him any of this.  The "follow the money" line is a clear indication HE is reading the tea leaves.  If he had been told, he would have said, "Sources say."  But he didn't.  But here's the thing, they didn't HAVE to do it.  They COULD have gone after anybody.  

 

22 hours ago, FootballZombie said:

 

Its 3 starters and a Vet pass catcher which would be great on a team that severely lacks proven production. That's a ton of impact players.

At positions we don't really need.  This is absolutely the old Snyderatto way of thinking.  Take guys who were "ok" starters and replace your cheaper starters, and hope it works. 

 

They don't really need any of those guys. They REALLY didn't need Jarvis Landry.  At least not on paper.  We'll see how it develops.

 

22 hours ago, FootballZombie said:

HB was a first team All Pro a year ago. Can't ask for much more.

 

HB is a really good player. And he wanted to go to the Saints. Don't forget, he went to LSU.  And he's a New Orleans native.  He wasn't coming here, and not because we're a dumpster fire, but because he made it pretty clear he wanted to go home.  And ****, if I grew up in New Orleans, played for (and was a star at) LSU, and could go play for the Saints, I'd do it to.  He'll be a king down there.  

 

In summary, I think this:  You don't care for the Wentz deal.  That's your prerogative.  He wasn't my first choice either, for what it's worth. 

 

But you've decided to die on the hill that we gave up too much for him and we're paying too much for him.  

 

You've come up with an insane scenario that at first blush might make some sense, but really holds no water.

 

If you want to die on this hill, so be it.  It will be a quick and painless death.  

 

Nobody knows how this is going to work out, but your take on the cap and attempt to skew numbers of how it works is at best misleading.  Wentz might fall flat on his face.  I see that as a definite possibility.  And then we're out this year's cap room, and a couple of mid-round picks.  He might be really successful, and then we're out $28M this year and a couple of mid-round picks. 

 

Regardless, we have complete flexibility next year to do whatever we want to do.  And that is good.  

 

We're not paying too much for Wentz.  When looked at in total, his contract for us is fine.  And that's not AAV or just this year, it's looked at in total in a more detailed way.  I prefer his contract to Winston's contract.  With Winston, you're getting probably a lesser QB, and you have to pay for him for 5 years.  I hate that.  I would do that for Rodgers.  I would do that for Wilson.  I would not do that for Winston.  But the Saints had to because they didn't have a QB either, and they have no cap room because they've done the same thing so many times, they are in a pickle.  

 

As an aside, the Saints have about $25M in cap spent in 2025 on players who won't be on their roster in 2025 unless they are restructured. That number won't go down unless they extend some of those players and push the money further down the road.  But they are 100% on the hook for it at some point.  They've pushed so much out, they're going to have to be working probably at a 10% - 15% disadvantage against the cap for moves they are making right now.  That's fine for them.  They have a good team, and they are going for it.  

[TheShredder]

RR can't seem to even remember the name of his QB last year as he calls him "Tyler" multiple times in his presser.

[Voice_of_Reason]

42 minutes ago, TheShredder said:

RR can't seem to even remember the name of his QB last year as he calls him "Tyler" multiple times in his presser.

Kurt! Kurt?! Kurt!! Where is Kurt?

 

[Skinsinparadise]

Standig

 

 

[FootballZombie]

5 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

With Winston, if he plays well this year, my bet is they extend him for another 3 years. They would take the remaining $17M of cap hit they are absolutely going to have to take, add to it, add 2 more voidable years, and extend him through 2026, and have 3 voidable years through 2029 to spread the additional guaranteed money.

 

You have described a situation where you have utilized Winstons G money to pay Winston across multiple deals, and then claimed that looking at WInston's G money on his first deal fully determines the value of said first deal. You have changed the purpose of the money.  I'm not making your point, your making mine.

 

You clearly understand that any leftover G money can be used as rollover credit to pay for an extension. You have just explained the idea that the same G-money, can be used to finance a player across different contract structures. You have demonstrated that you have the knowledge that the purpose of G-money can easily be changed to pay for things beyond the initial intended use.

 

We don't know how Winston's G money will play out or how it can be further utilized, but by no means are the Saints locked into its current usage. They are more than capable of changing the purpose of the money. As such any attempt to determine the value of his current contract via G money alone is flawed. Even under your scenario, They only take a cap hit of 4 Mil this year, and then everything else is rolled under whatever extension they give him, meaning conclusions derived from his current contract would then become faulty as his ultimate deal is different then the initial one.

 

We have no idea how the Saints will spend his Gmoney, but I do know what they are paying him this year. You can't tell me you know the worth of his current deal in the same post you explain how that very deal can be entirely different next year.

 

5 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Yeah, so what?  The deal had to be made in February/March.  He might have still been on crutches at that point. He was injured in November.   You absolutely never, ever know what type of setback could occur.  There is absolutely no way Ron was going to bet this season on Winston's knee recovering in time for practices and TC.  When they made the trade, there is absolutely no way they could have predicted where exactly he would be 3 months from then. Unless they had a DeLorean Time Machine, which they don't.  

 

I linked reports dating back to march that said Winston would be fine well before the season. Didn't need a time machine when I had that.

 

Your stance on Winston also went from something that could work had he been healthy when you thought he was crippled to full on it must be stupid once you were presented w/ proof of his progress. Suddenly the option that could work had to be silenced once you saw it as a threat to your argument. But its fine, I saw how you really felt about it before you thought it was a threat and that's good enough for me.

 

5 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I heard JP talk about this on the Pod.  This is true to an extent, but JP was pretty clear there was some speculation in his comments and he was reading tea leaves.  Nobody told him any of this.  The "follow the money" line is a clear indication HE is reading the tea leaves.  If he had been told, he would have said, "Sources say."  But he didn't.  But here's the thing, they didn't HAVE to do it.  They COULD have gone after anybody.  

 

RIvera has said Carson's contract has impacted free agency. Reporters have said the same. Does the Cap guy need a quoted soundbite too?

They "could" have done a lot of things, but they didn't.

 

5 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

At positions we don't really need.  This is absolutely the old Snyderatto way of thinking.  Take guys who were "ok" starters and replace your cheaper starters, and hope it works. 

 

They don't really need any of those guys. They REALLY didn't need Jarvis Landry.  At least not on paper.  We'll see how it develops.

 

Needed a QB. HB would allow us to kick somebody to buff nickel roll and since we had 3 diff safetys log the majority of total defensive snaps last year, I'd say that's good. Landry would be a proven pass catcher on a core that has some of the worst proven production in the NFL at the position. I see several needs/roles being filled.

 

If you wanna roll the dice on other guys that's cool, but these guys could have served some obvious roles.

 

5 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

We're not paying too much for Wentz.  When looked at in total, his contract for us is fine.  And that's not AAV or just this year, it's looked at in total in a more detailed way.  I prefer his contract to Winston's contract.  With Winston, you're getting probably a lesser QB, and you have to pay for him for 5 years.  I hate that.  I would do that for Rodgers.  I would do that for Wilson.  I would not do that for Winston.  But the Saints had to because they didn't have a QB either, and they have no cap room because they've done the same thing so many times, they are in a pickle.  

 

I think your choosing to ignore different attributes to fit whatever argument your currently in. You openly campaign to give Terry AJ Browns exact deal over in McLs thread with the full knowledge that we will extended or released him at the end to alter the financial situation, but suddenly its the worst thing in the world when presented with a similar scenario that challenges your stance on Wentz. I know you fully understand the value of the contract and G money dance, but you choose to paint it in a negative light when it does not suit your machinations in one thread while championing the idea as good practice in another.

 

This is a tactic you have openly called for when making your arguments, but if someone else proposes the idea against you its "stupid."

 

But like the situation above, I know you understand the logic behind the process, its just not fitting for your argument in the here and now, so you rally against it.

 

 

5 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

We're not paying too much for Wentz.

 

Personally, a top 10 cap hit in the NFL counts as a lot in my book. It can't really get too much bigger than that to be honest. You certainly have your own views on the subject as obviously that is not too much for you. For all your talk about it you seem perplexingly determined to die on that specific hill and I honestly can't stop you from doing so, I can only continue to provide warnings. Seems silly to me, but to each their own I guess.

Edited June 9, 2022 by FootballZombie

[TheShredder]

Press Conference

Carson was very humble and genuine once again.

He's a guy who's not being shy about his needing to get better in every aspect. Even when credited with his success with the deep balls last year he immediately points out Taylor running the ball so well that it opened up the long game. Also, taking responsibility for literally everything negative said in regards to him. Respectable to say the least.

Doing and saying all the right things so far.

[TheShredder]

6 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

We're not paying too much for Wentz.  When looked at in total, his contract for us is fine

Most likely a bargain by mid-season.

Contracts like his, for QBs settle into value at this point. Wentz salary is currently #11, and will fall to #13 after Lamar and Murray finish their deals.

Wentz needs to play better than last year and he'll easily be more valuable than his cap number.

[Skinsinparadise]

Bleacher Report, another example of irrational hate.

 

His stats weren't terrible?    That implies they were bad but not terrible.  4-1 TD to INT ratio.

 

At his best he's average.  

 

I don't mind a balanced take on Wentz, the dude is far from perfect.  But the rap on him by most adds up to the wildest misrepresentation I can recall about an NFL starting QB. 

 

https://commanderswire.usatoday.com/2022/06/06/where-are-the-washington-commanders-trio-of-qbs-ranked-carson-wentz-taylor-heinicke-sam-howell/?taid=62a17e577385bc0001a5704c&utm_campaign=trueanthem&utm_medium=trueanthem&utm_source=twitter

 

Wentz’s stats weren’t terrible, with 3,563 passing yards, 27 touchdowns and seven picks. But all the Colts had to do to make the playoffs was win one of their final two games, including a matchup with the league-worst Jaguars.

In both games, Wentz failed to complete 60 percent of his passes, throw for 200 yards or toss multiple touchdowns.

At his best, Wentz is an average starter. At his worst, he’s a team-sinker.

What he isn’t is a quarterback who will lead a team on a deep playoff run.

Edited June 9, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[CommDownMan]

On 6/6/2022 at 4:19 PM, FootballZombie said:

 

4Mil is Winston's cost to the saints cap this year. If he stinks and they cut him, he will never see large chuncks of the money in his contract. He does not truly have 21M in G money, I believe a lot of it is incentive based, and he can't reach those if he is cut.

 

15.2 million fully guaranteed at signing. 

 

5.8 3rd day of 2023 league year,  unless he's injured, then it's fully guaranteed.   Not incentive based.

[HigSkin]

Watching Wentz's interviews and noticed he uses his hands a lot.  As an observer of how that correlates to the person...

 

"Studies have found that people who communicate through active gesturing tend to be evaluated as warm, agreeable and energetic, while those who remain still (or whose gestures seem mechanical or "wooden") are seen as logical, cold, and analytical."

[Est.1974]

Well I wanted us to go get Wentz as soon is it became apparent the Colts we’re moving on and so far he hasn’t disappointed. He will represent a major upgrade at QB across the season. 

[mistertim]

28 minutes ago, Est.1974 said:

Well I wanted us to go get Wentz as soon is it became apparent the Colts we’re moving on and so far he hasn’t disappointed. He will represent a major upgrade at QB across the season. 

 

I mean, he's no Jameis Winston, but there was almost no chance we could land such a stud.

[Voice_of_Reason]

@FootballZombieInstead of going point by point, I'm going to make 3 general statements, and one specific correction:

 

- My opinion on Winston is he was my favorite of the FA QBs if he wasn't injured.  I liked him better than Mitch, Mariota, Dalton, etc.  But he was injured, and there is absolutely no way you put the fate of the entire team and coaching staff on ANOTHER guy who's recovering from an ACL injury, like Young and Thomas.  I don't give a damn about reports in March.  A lot can happen in a recovery between March and September.  It's absolutely not worth the risk.  

 

- The players you mentioned, they might have come, they might not have.  HB wasn't coming here.  He was going to play in New Orleans, because he wanted to.  He played at LSU, he grew up in New Orleans.  But if your strategy is to wait until FA, you're leaving a lot to chance because all of those players could have chosen to go to other places.  I STILL don't think they were all in positions of need. 

 

But whatever.  I'll even concede the point. Let's say, for the sake of argument, all of the three players you mentioned would be massive upgrades at their positions.  It's a massive risk if you go into FA saying, "we're going to get our QB, and also these other 3 guys in FA and that's our plan."  You could end up with none of them and be completely screwed. 

 

- There is absolutely NO WAY the Commanders sign Winston to the same contract he signed in New Orleans.  New Orleans is so up against the cap, they HAD to structure the deal the way they did it to fit it (and other things), in.  Fine.  We would not have done that. 

 

Let's say the numbers in the deal remain constant.  So we're not paying MORE than New Orleans.  (Which we might have had to do, but let's just say we don't.) From Winston's perspective, it's a 2 year deal worth $28M with $21 guaranteed. So, put simply, if he plays 1 year, he gets $21M.  If he plays 2, he gets $28. He's also getting a $14M signing bonus.  ** Keep in mind, the one year price, if they cut Winston after this season, they're STILL paying him $21, which isn't THAT far from Wentz.  But I digress.   EDIT: Ok, there is a caveat: His guarantee at signing is $15.2.  If they cut him, he gets that amount. Amazingly, that's his year 1 Cash Number with his signing bonus and yearly salary.  They would take an $11.2M cap hit in year 2 if they cut him.  If he's on the roster, then he gets the full $28, basically.  Unless they keep him on the roster and then cut him at some point.  Which seems rather unlikely.

 

As long as those terms stay the same, Winston couldn't give a good God Damn how the team structures it against the cap.  $14M singing Bonus, Cash Money of $15.2M for one year, Cash Money of $28M over 2 years.  Got it. Ok.  

 

My best guess is we would have either evenly split the $28M contract $14/$14, or slightly back-loaded it.  But nothing massive.  Again, they had ~$40M of cap room available in March. They have shown to be conservative about pushing money out. 

 

This is why I say you can't just look at the one year of the contract.  Winston's contract is essentially a 2 year, $28M deal.  They have an exit ramp after one year to get out paying $11.2 against the cap.  That's the contract.  You an spread it however you want.  The saints chose to spread it over 6 bloody years because of their cap situation.  

 

There is no way the Commanders would do that.  So, sure, Winston is going to cost less than Wentz.  Freely and fully acknowledged.  But he wouldn't cost $4M against the cap for us.   Because the Commanders would not structure it that way.  So, if they signed him to a $14M/$14M deal, would that change your opinion?  I kindof think it would be more $12/$16.  That's a hunch. But I am willing to bet they wouldn't have pushed money into out years, and they wouldn't have pushed the majority to next year. If they did sign him, they would want future flexibility, because, unlike with Wentz, I doubt they would see him as the future, and they probably select a QB earlier in the draft with the intent Winston is more of a place-holder.  

 

This is why saying, "he's only $4m" is a completely, totally, and in every way false statement.  His contract value is $21M guaranteed and $28 over 2 years.  And if you assume we sign him, you CAN NOT assume we sign him to the same spread.  We wouldn't.  Why would we?  I doubt the Saints would either if they had the ability not to.  But they've worked their way into a cap situation where they HAVE to.  So, they do. 

 

If we don't HAVE to, we wouldn't.   

 

Now to the correction: 

15 hours ago, FootballZombie said:

. You openly campaign to give Terry AJ Browns exact deal over in McLs thread with the full knowledge that we will extended or released him at the end to alter the financial situation, but suddenly its the worst thing in the world when presented with a similar scenario that challenges your stance on Wentz.

That's actually NOT what I said.  So, let's go take a look at what I DID say:

 

Quote

There is no reason the Commanders couldn't give McLaurin this exact same deal.  Like, identical.  

 

They could do the DJ Moore contract also. The big difference between the 2 contracts, Brown has an extra year in his which is MASSIVELY inflated.  Moore does not.  I'd argue Moore's AAV of $19M over his contract is actually HIGHER than Brown's because there is literally no way Brown plays on the last year of that deal, so you can almost exclude it from the contract.  

 

Either one of these contracts could be a perfectly legitimate comp.  And I'd be fine with either contract.  

First of all, I'm not sure that's actively campaigning for anything.  If it's actively campaigning, it's not a very good campaign.  I went back and looked at all my recent posts in that thread.  That is the closest thing I said to "campaigning" for anything.  Which isn't much. 

 

AND both statements are true:  there is no reason they couldn't offer Terry either AJ Brown OR DJ Moore's contract right now.  And I would be fine with either.  Both have plusses and minuses to them.

 

What I said is either contract could be a legitimate comp.  Also, Yeah, you're right, Brown DOES have 1 voidable year at $2M in 2027.  DJ Moore does not.  

 

My point with Brown's deal, however, was more that it had the ludicrous $30M salary in 2026 which he'd never see.  You would you have to release him or extend him before then.  If you release him, it's an $8.7M cap hit.  That's not ideal, but it's not awful either. If that's the comp Terry wants, fine, whatever.  

 

And yeah, it has the voidable year with $2M.  Personally, I wouldn't do that.  I would take the $2M hit a year earlier and not have the voidable year.  Clearly the Eagles wanted to spread it out a bit more. 

 

And once again, I'll state this: I never said that voidable years were awful and should not be used.  They have their place.  I would NOT use it for Winston.  I WOULD use it for Rodgers, Wilson, name your top 10 QB.  I would NOT use it right now for Wentz.  I have said that a million times also.  I personally don't like punting money for a huge question mark player who you don't even know is going to be on your team in 2 and punt it down so you're paying the majority of the cap hit after he's gone.  The Saints HAVE to do it.  We don't.  We shouldn't.

 

As far as receivers go, I WOULD be ok using it for Terry. (though minimally would be my preference.)  I would NOT use it for Cam Sims, for example. But again, they don't HAVE to do it because they have the room. 

 

The other context is where the team is competitively and against the cap.  If you have space this year, use it and don't mortgage the future.  If you don't, you have no choice.  Also, if you're the Rams, and you want to repeat as SB champs, and you know 2027 is going to be a disaster anyway, fine, push everything to 2027, you'll have you SB, maybe another, probably another championship game, and then you re-boot. 

 

We are in neither scenario.  We have plenty of cap space to do what we want right now, AND we're not the Rams, yet.  

 

If we go 12-5 next year, win a playoff game, I'm going to be saying, "get those final pieces and I don't care what you have to pay for them.  Make the cap work."  (Caveat, DO NOT blow up the young core that helped you to 12-5, that would be so Dan Snyder.  You want to augment, not replace.) But if they start back-loading contracts and using voided years to get blue-chip players to augment the team at that point, I'm all in.  

 

There is always context.  There are no absolutes.  Do you treat Rodgers, Wentz, Winston the same way?  No, you treat each one of those guys differently because they are different tiers.  

Edited June 9, 2022 by Voice_of_Reason

[Voice_of_Reason]

57 minutes ago, CommDownMan said:

 

15.2 million fully guaranteed at signing. 

 

5.8 3rd day of 2023 league year,  unless he's injured, then it's fully guaranteed.   Not incentive based.

Right.  I just wrote a TOME about how the $4M is a ludicrous number to bandy about because we would never have given Winston the same contract the Saints did.  

 

44 minutes ago, HigSkin said:

Watching Wentz's interviews and noticed he uses his hands a lot.  As an observer of how that correlates to the person...

 

"Studies have found that people who communicate through active gesturing tend to be evaluated as warm, agreeable and energetic, while those who remain still (or whose gestures seem mechanical or "wooden") are seen as logical, cold, and analytical."

I'm not sure how much this matters.  But yeah, I'm down with it.

 

For what it's worth, I wave my arms like a bird when I talk.  does that mean everybody loves me?

 

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

The only thing I have noticed with all of these IG posts, Wentz tends to throw high a lot.  That could be a function of getting to know the players, the timing, the offense, but he's got to get that ball down a bit. It's also true people have said he likes bigger targets.  I think that's one thing Warner was working with him on in that film clip  

 

At least the ball gets there and isn't hanging in the air, though.  The worst combination is late AND high.  (cough cough Taylor Hieicke.)  That puts receivers on the trainers table.  

 

High and on-time limits YAC.  But typically doesn't result in a de-cleeting. 

[Chris 44]

3 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Bleacher Report, another example of irrational hate.

 

His stats weren't terrible?    That implies they were bad but not terrible.  4-1 TD to INT ratio.

 

At his best he's average.  

 

I don't mind a balanced take on Wentz, the dude is far from perfect.  But the rap on him by most adds up to the wildest misrepresentation I can recall about an NFL starting QB. 

 

https://commanderswire.usatoday.com/2022/06/06/where-are-the-washington-commanders-trio-of-qbs-ranked-carson-wentz-taylor-heinicke-sam-howell/?taid=62a17e577385bc0001a5704c&utm_campaign=trueanthem&utm_medium=trueanthem&utm_source=twitter

 

Wentz’s stats weren’t terrible, with 3,563 passing yards, 27 touchdowns and seven picks. But all the Colts had to do to make the playoffs was win one of their final two games, including a matchup with the league-worst Jaguars.

In both games, Wentz failed to complete 60 percent of his passes, throw for 200 yards or toss multiple touchdowns.

At his best, Wentz is an average starter. At his worst, he’s a team-sinker.

What he isn’t is a quarterback who will lead a team on a deep playoff run.

Wasn't he also coming back from COVID those last couple games? Didn't see that mentioned. Or am I not remembering correctly and just making that up?

[HigSkin]

4 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Bleacher Report, another example of irrational hate.

 

His stats weren't terrible?    That implies they were bad but not terrible.  4-1 TD to INT ratio.

 

At his best he's average.  

 

I don't mind a balanced take on Wentz, the dude is far from perfect.  But the rap on him by most adds up to the wildest misrepresentation I can recall about an NFL starting QB. 

 

https://commanderswire.usatoday.com/2022/06/06/where-are-the-washington-commanders-trio-of-qbs-ranked-carson-wentz-taylor-heinicke-sam-howell/?taid=62a17e577385bc0001a5704c&utm_campaign=trueanthem&utm_medium=trueanthem&utm_source=twitter

 

Wentz’s stats weren’t terrible, with 3,563 passing yards, 27 touchdowns and seven picks. But all the Colts had to do to make the playoffs was win one of their final two games, including a matchup with the league-worst Jaguars.

In both games, Wentz failed to complete 60 percent of his passes, throw for 200 yards or toss multiple touchdowns.

At his best, Wentz is an average starter. At his worst, he’s a team-sinker.

What he isn’t is a quarterback who will lead a team on a deep playoff run.

 

 

From the absurd to the sublime.....oh and with guys like Fields, Lance, Hurts and Tua above him.

 

 

23. Carson Wentz, Washington Commanders

Wentz is about as volatile as they come, and his 2021 performance shows as much. His upfront numbers appear solid through the first 10 to 12 games, but after that he failed to throw more than one touchdown in all but one contest and was held below 160 yards on four different occasions. The former Colts produced 18 turnover-worthy plays, and he just wasn't good enough to overcome those with the positives. We'll see what a new offensive scheme and weapons can do for him, but he's below a top-20 quarterback without a doubt.