The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[88Comrade2000]

Watson could face new criminal charges with that 23rd and 24th lawsuit.

[Voice_of_Reason]

30 minutes ago, SkinsFTW said:

Any of those guys would have wanted a lot more to sign with Doofus Dan's team. Mathieu picked the Saints specifically, the others may have as well. Winston definitely did, he learned behind Brees and the team wanted him as his replacement. For him to then bail out to go join a 20+ year dumpster fire would take a few extra sets of balls and a whole lot more money.

Mathieu to the Saints made a ton of sense for both sides.  And while he would have fit in here, I'm not sure he's worth the money.  The Saints are really into voided years.  They are going to take hits on Honey Badger in 2025 and 2026, his last year of service to them is 2024, he's an UFA after that. 

 

Winston wasn't leaving the Saints either, and the reason was, he knows the offense and the players and he is recovering from a torn ACL.  Forget anything else, you go back to the place where you don't have to learn a new system while recovering from a serious knee injury.  

 

I don't think he was ever on our radar because of the ACL.  I think he was a scratch just for that reason.

 

If it wasn't Wentz, we would have signed either Mitch, Mariotta or Teddy, and then selected Pickett in the draft.  Kindof exactly what Pittsburg did.  We were definitely trading back, and maybe we pick Pickett at 16.  Maybe we got back a few more spots, but I think everybody knew Pittsburgh was picking a QB at 20, so would stay in front of them. 

 

I do think players have a much different opinion of this organization than fans do.  And for sure they have a much larger respect for Ron.  The only thing that's unfortunate is the experience at FedEx. Otherwise, the real rot (Bruce) is gone.  Agents hated him.  Players have always gotten along with Dan.  That's never been the problem.  (They've gotten along TOO well, which has been the problem, but again, not for the players.)

6 minutes ago, 88Comrade2000 said:

Watson could face new criminal charges with that 23rd and 24th lawsuit.

If he is a sexual predator, he needs to both get help and also go to jail for a long, long, long time.  

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 hour ago, goskins10 said:

You can't possibly believe this can you? Adding a few middling players - that is what they at this piont in thier careers - does not drag a bad QB into a good season. Hopefully there were some adult beverages involved when you typed this. 

Yeah, it was a ludicrous statement.  

 

Let's play the hypothetical game:  Let's say they added  Honey Badger, Marcus Maye, plus Jarvis Landry.

 

First of all, I'm not sure Matheiu and Maye would play while still having McCain and Kurl on the roster.  So there's that. We blew the hell out of the secondary last year and they didn't have chemistry until half way through the season.  Maybe it's just me, but I'm not sure I want to go down that road again. 

 

Landry, if they wanted to sign him, they could have.  As an aside, it's the only Saints contract I've looked at which DOESN'T have voidable years.  It's a 1 year, $3M deal.  We could have done that.  But again, I'm not sure we wanted to. They knew they were going to draft a WR, they have Terry and Samuel, and they drafted Brown last year.  Not sure where he fits.

 

But let's say they do all of those things.  Which I don't think really help ALL that much.

 

Then, as @FootballZombie said, "you can put any QB behind that and they will get keelhauled to a good season."  Really?  TH could make that work?  Darnold?  Mitch?  Mariota?  Even Winston coming off of an ACL learning a new system?  Dalton?  Teddy?  Really?  I think we've seen that bad QB play suboptimizes everything.  

 

Because you signed 2 aging safeties  and an aging WR?  Sure, they're all "good" players.  

 

You can say you like Winston's upside, and I do too.   In fact, if he wasn't coming off of an ACL, he would have been my #1 FA target.  However, keep this in mind: Sean Payton kept Winston on a REALLY short leash.  Only in 2 of his 7 games did he have more than 23 attempts.  Payton did not trust him AT ALL to throw the ball consistently, and that was a story from training camp on.  He was worried Winston would throw massive INTs.  

 

@FootballZombie dings Wentz for almost exactly the same thing.  Except Wentz DID throw the ball more, even in Indy, and had more success doing it.  

 

We'll see how Winston does this year.  Maybe he is terrific.  The Saints have a good roster.  They always play TB tough.  (It's odd, when the Saints were good and TB was bad, Tampa gave them fits.  When Tampa is good and the Saints are not as good, the Saints have given Tampa fits.  Source: my wife is a Saints fan. So I watch a lot of Saints games.)

[Skinsinparadise]

Listening to 106.7, Barstool Nate.  Fun listen

 

He goes the media is treating Wentz like he's a bum like he's Nathan Peterman and its ridiculous.   He's a good QB.

 

I'll say in a good way at looks like Rivera got to Breer to come around a little.  I was surprised that Breer joined the national media to trash the deal and trash Wentz when it went down considering Breer clearly has a good relationship with Rivera.

 

Sheehan ditto -- he read the Breer story on air but did it of course in a lukewarm fashion but in that same radio conversation plugged Rivera as a good coach and is better than people think.  My thought is if he trusts Rivera like that why not trust this move since it was his call?

Edited June 7, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Tress Is The Way]

Take this for what you will but this was an impressive pass.

 

 

[Redskins 2021]

I liked the Wentz trade when it was done. I thought price was good because I feel like the Colts owner was the one pushing him out. I thought he was the best realistic option. He is not the best not the worst but is a legit starting NFL Qb. We would have traded for him last year if the eagles would have traded him in division.

 

I was pro Watson I gave him the benefit of the doubt because I was under the impression he did not want to settle. I thought he had refused to settle because he wanted to fight and prove that he was being railroaded. I though it was weird he requested a trade and all these accusations came out. I thought it was possible he was being extorted. I thought the Dolphins were comfortable trading for him because there was no case and he did not want to settle. I did not know that his settlement was rejected by 5 accusers. He is a great player but we dodged a bullet on him. 

 

What I think they did best was made a move  earlier. People say we overpaid could of had JimmyG or Mayfield cheaper. Maybe we could have but making the move early shows we really want him here which will go a long way with him. We put all are chips in for Stafford and did not get him. I was not a big fan of the Fitzpatrick move. I really think this year with Wentz we have a shot. This Qb is at least on par with a healthy Alex Smith.  I think we will have a 10 win season this year. We would not have gotten Wentz if he was released he would have gone to Pittsburgh. 

 

Edited June 7, 2022 by Redskins 2021

[Voice_of_Reason]

3 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

My thought is if he trusts Rivera like that why not trust this move since it was his call?

He's always said he likes Rivera, but he's also been critical at times.  Especially of what Rivera has said which was confusing.  

 

I've liked coaches/GMs and thought some of the moves they've made were REALLY crazy.  So it's ok to have some hesitation. But maybe tone down the tantrum a bit?

 

I think the Wentz thing for Sheehan was during the height of his emotional trauma over the name, and he kindof got swept up into it.  

[Voice_of_Reason]

6 minutes ago, ZarG3 said:

Take this for what you will but this was an impressive pass.

 

 

I saw that earlier and did not think the ball was going where it went.  

 

I can't remember is this is one of the things Warner was working with Wentz on in the "on the field with Kurt Warner" (or whatever it's called), but it looks familiar.

 

2 additional thoughts:

 

1.  I bet all good NFL QBs have exceptional peripheral vision.  Wentz wasn't staring directly at Brown, but from where his head was pointed, I bet he could see him out "of the corner of his eye." 

 

2.  DBrown is probably the player where I have the most amount of questions on this year.  I just don't see where he's going to get touches, but I think he will.  Assuming they re-sign Terry (damn it, get it done already so I can stop posting the caveat), Terry/Dotson/Samuel are going to be the top 3 WR targets.  The TEs and RBs will get some targets.  

 

Cam Sims (who we haven't heard a lot from during the OTAs) seems like he would be the natural "big bodied" guy for certain situations, like 3rd and short and goal-line.  

 

So where does DBrown fit in?  Is he just a rotational guy who fills in for one of the others (probably Dotson, maybe Samuel) when they need a breather?  Are there packages for him, and if so, who are you pulling off?  Do they go 4 WR at times, and play without a TE?

 

Personally, I like the idea of going 4 WR/McKissic at times.  You have a RB who can run the ball especially in space, and you spread the defense out with 4 guys who can really fly.  You take the physicality of a TE off the field, but that's ok. 

 

But I really question where DBrown's touches are going to come from.  Absent injury, of course.

 

That said, I think he's going to end up contributing.  I just don't know exactly how. 

[Skinsinparadise]

18 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

He's always said he likes Rivera, but he's also been critical at times.  Especially of what Rivera has said which was confusing.  

 

I've liked coaches/GMs and thought some of the moves they've made were REALLY crazy.  So it's ok to have some hesitation. But maybe tone down the tantrum a bit?

 

I think the Wentz thing for Sheehan was during the height of his emotional trauma over the name, and he kindof got swept up into it.  

 

I don't agree with every move from a coach or GM I like either.  But Sheehan's intensity is so over the top, that it comes off to me that Rivera would have to be some type of moron to make this move because Sheehan acts like it was a moronic move. 

 

The two things that are really wild to me about the Wentz critcisim from the national media and insider types.

 

1.  Many treat Wentz like he's the biggest punchline QB in the league, like he's a scrub.  Like we are trying to reclamate Blaine Gabbert or Blake Bortles. 

 

2.  Some of those same people also admit he's an upgrade, most actually saying a significant upgrade over Heinicke.

 

So if Wentz is some clown version of a QB then what does that say about Heinicke considering they say he's much better than Heinicke.  So using that same logic was Heinicke a poor man's John Beck?      Also if Heinicke was that level bad and then won 7 games why wouldn't this team be seriously better with Wentz?

7 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I saw that earlier and did not think the ball was going where it went.  

 

I can't remember is this is one of the things Warner was working with Wentz on in the "on the field with Kurt Warner" (or whatever it's called), but it looks familiar.

 

2 additional thoughts:

 

1.  I bet all good NFL QBs have exceptional peripheral vision.  Wentz wasn't staring directly at Brown, but from where his head was pointed, I bet he could see him out "of the corner of his eye." 

 

Wentz is known for this type of thing.   He has some Mahones in him as to making some wild off script throws.

 

Watching the Warner-Wentz video both his criticism of Wentz and the short glimpse of their practice -- feels like Warner was working with Wentz on check down throws, quick outs -- first-2nd level throws and wanted him to hit WRs in stride.   Around the numbers or outside the numbers. 

Edited June 7, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Koolblue13]

Wentz is Farve. I think that's the best comparison for him. He'll finally have an offense around him to take the load off this year and he can play gunslinger making **** happen, because our long ball should be near the top of the league.

 

As for wondering where DBrown comes in, it's definitely down field. He's got a super quick get off and is good in space like that. I think he'll have one of the largest catch from LoS whatever that stats called. Samuels as fast as he is, isn't a go far and get under it type, but Dotson is also.

[Skinsinparadise]

3 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I really hate Ron brought it up to begin with, and it's the only thing which I think points to Dan maybe having some liquidity issues.  (I don't actually believe that narrative, FWIW, but Ron saying it started the fire.)

 

 

Either Dan has some liquidity issues or simply likes to hold on to his money for as long as possible or Ron struggles to walk and chew gum at the same time IMO -- and I'd think more likely Dan is the issue versus Ron.

 

The whole we are punting on the Terry contract until the summer I found odd at the time but Ron said that from the jump.  But speaking of Breer, he mentioned owners holding on to their money for as long as possible in the context of the Terry contract dragging deeper into the off season. Plus that's how Dan has done some of his bigger resigns pre-Ron. 

 

Also tough for me to believe that Dan getting a debt waiver for a 875 million dollar loan coupled with according to Virginia him saying he's about to pay 2 billion dollars on his own for the stadium where that combined adds up to a run of the mill financial situation for him -- where almost every year Dan was parking 2 billion to buy a new stadium and he all the time takes on an 875 million dollar loan -- so no biggie where 2022 is any different than name some other random year from the past.

 

Bringing that up here that if it isn't true and Dan is just swimming in liquidity.  And, he can pay off his 875 million dollar loan like we can pay off a $100 debt on our credit cards like its nothing and he's kind of now a financial powerhouse who can easily put in 2 billion for a new stadium without it feeling any different any other year -- if that's the case then Ron has some explaining to do in my book about why unlike Carolina and some other teams who got a deal done with their WRs, Ron just didn't feel like dealing with it earlier and in turn likely cost the team about 5 million a year of cap money because of his procrastination.  

Edited June 7, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[SkinsFTW]

They've been doing this kind of dumb crap for years, nobody wants to believe it, but it's been Dan Snyder all along. When McLaurin doesn't get resigned (or he accepts a lowball offer/doubtful), I wish some ESPN or FSN show would interview McCloughan or even Bumbling Bruce to see what their input is on the idiocy going down around the Danmanders (or is it Commyders?). 

Edited June 7, 2022 by SkinsFTW

[Voice_of_Reason]

The "contract negotiations" part of the delay could also be on Terry's side.  They might want to wait as long as possible too, because the number keeps rising while they just sit there. 

 

If I was a good agent, I'd never want my client to be first, I'd always want them to be last.  

 

The other hang-up could be they can't agree on a comp at the moment.  That's kindof step one.  Once they get to that point, it's really easy.  

 

I think there are 3 possible reasons for the delay:

 

1. It's somehow Dan related.  Either he just wants to hold onto his money, or liquidity issues, or whatever, he's delaying it.  (I still think it gets done.)

2. Terry's side has wanted to see what the rest of the WRs made this off season, and they had no interest in having discussions until recently.  I think there are still a couple of others out there to be done, as well.  They want to go last to maximize value.  

3.  The sides just can't agree on a comp, so they're still negotiating to try and figure out value.  

 

Any of the three is possible.  I have no gut feel as to which is more likely.

 

On the Dan liquidity thing, we have NO IDEA how much money he pocketed from the franchise.  He got a loan, but with interest rates as low as they were, did he really need to get that big a loan?  Or is he simply just taking a loan because he'd prefer to spend other people's money instead of his own, given the low interest rate, and he believes he can make a higher return (somehow) than the interest rate he is paying on the loan.  

 

On the Terry thing, if I were his agent, I would have slow played this at least through the draft also to see what the landscape was.  Now, they should be more willing to talk.

 

Value shouldn't be hard to agree on.  But who knows.  

 

The interesting thing, if you look at Tyree Hill's deal and AJ Brown's deal, they are both MASSIVELY inflated with final years which will never happen.  So, I think you could comp either one and be fine.  If the team thinks McLaurin isn't Hill or Brown and wants to go below those numbers, maybe that's a sticking point.  

 

Is McLaurin Hill or Brown?  I dunno.  I'd say no.  But he's so important here, I would just pay him the extra mil or two and be done with it.  If that is the reason they are not getting it done. 

[Voice_of_Reason]

10 minutes ago, SkinsFTW said:

They've been doing this kind of dumb crap for years, nobody wants to believe it, but it's been Dan Snyder all along. When McLaurin doesn't get resigned (or he accepts a lowball offer/doubtful), I wish some ESPN or FSN show would interview McCloughan or even Bumbling Bruce to see what their input is on the idiocy going down around the Danmanders (or is it Commyders?). 

Doing what kind of dumb stuff we don't believe?  I think we believe most of it.  But what dumb stuff, and I'm talking specifically contractually, have they been doing for ages?

 

And don't bring up Kirk.  He was overly leveraged, and he played that to his strength.  He hasn't lived up to a single contract he's signed since 2016, his first Franchise Tag.  Samuels tried to force his way out.  He didn't really even give them an opportunity to try to re-sign him.  

 

And I wouldn't trust Bruce or McCloughan.  

 

The guy who they need to talk to is Eric Schaffer.  He'd know all the contractual stuff.

 

But if Dan has cash issues, and I'm not sure if he does or doesn't, but if he does, they didn't start until the last couple of years, specifically when he bought out his minority owners.    Heck, you could argue they were so stingy with contracts over the past decade, they should have saved up a ton of money.  

 

[88Comrade2000]

So, I heard some blurb of there now were 66 women over 17 months and the Texans helped covered it up?

It’s in. Nyt times report that just dropped .

 

If true, Watson needs to go to jail. Browns ****ed for a decade.

 

Edited June 7, 2022 by 88Comrade2000

[sjinhan]

52 minutes ago, 88Comrade2000 said:

So, I heard some blurb of there now were 66 women over 17 months and the Texans helped covered it up?

It’s in. Nyt times report that just dropped .

 

If true, Watson needs to go to jail. Browns ****ed for a decade.

 

And Texans should be also hit if all true

[FootballZombie]

8 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

But if you look further, you see that it's nowhere near as much of a steal, because if they cut him after this season, they have an $11M cap hit in 2023 and an $8M cap hit in 2024. 

 

Sure, they're getting the benefit of the $4M THIS year, but there is no good off-ramp.

 

In the other scenario where he plays 2 years, they take a bigger hit next year, and then they have 3 years where they are paying him after he's off the team.  That's not ideal either.  

 

You have to look at the entire picture.  

 

But like APY you don't know how things are gonna go and if the future numbers are gonna stay that way, especially at QB.  We live in a time where we know full well a lot of players don't see the end of their contracts w/o getting new deals done or cut. Dude is on a 2 year deal and could very well get a new deal next year, which would drastically change how the money situation works out. It will be a contract year for him next year, so regardless of what happens this year, something is likely getting done contract wise for Winston next year. There is a very real possibility that the lingering money gets altered.

 

I may not be 100% confident in what future money situation, but I do see what he is costing the team right now.

 

8 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

He can't take place in all the drills, and there's no way you're putting him in 11-11 or pre-season games coming off of a torn ACL when training camp starts.  Period.  It would be a constant story of what he can do, what he can't do, etc.  If he's "ahead" and able to participate fully, great, but you absolutely never know.  

 

He is doing practically everything right now. TC is a ways away. Pre-season is in... august?

 

He is actively participating in on-field activities now. Lets not act like he is strapped to a wheelchair and can't participate. He is out there building timing the same as other QBs.

 

 

8 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

And again, your hypothesis is pretty meaningless anyway.   If they wanted the Honey Badger, they could have thrown money at him and signed him.  They have the cap room to literally do anything they want.

 

We know there were players they liked and chose not to pursue do the Wentz deal.

 

 

In a sanz Wentz environment, who knows who the team would have chosen to pursue, but it seems the team did not want to go after any player of cost after the QB trade before FA started.

 

8 hours ago, goskins10 said:

But you can't get a "bunch of impact" players.

 

Its 3 starters and a Vet pass catcher which would be great on a team that severely lacks proven production. That's a ton of impact players.

 

HB was a first team All Pro a year ago. Can't ask for much more.

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

10 minutes ago, sjinhan said:

And Texans should be also hit if all true

At the very least they should be invited to testify in front of congress

[Redskins 2021]

22 minutes ago, FootballZombie said:

 

But like APY you don't know how things are gonna go and if the future numbers are gonna stay that way, especially at QB.  We live in a time where we know full well a lot of players don't see the end of their contracts w/o getting new deals done or cut. Dude is on a 2 year deal and could very well get a new deal next year, which would drastically change how the money situation works out. It will be a contract year for him next year, so regardless of what happens this year, something is likely getting done contract wise for Winston next year. There is a very real possibility that the lingering money gets altered.

 

I may not be 100% confident in what future money situation, but I do see what he is costing the team right now.

 

 

He is doing practically everything right now. TC is a ways away. Pre-season is in... august?

 

He is actively participating in on-field activities now. Lets not act like he is strapped to a wheelchair and can't participate. He is out there building timing the same as other QBs.

 

 

 

We know there were players they liked and chose not to pursue do the Wentz deal.

 

 

In a sanz Wentz environment, who knows who the team would have chosen to pursue, but it seems the team did not want to go after any player of cost after the QB trade before FA started.

 

 

Its 3 starters and a Vet pass catcher which would be great on a team that severely lacks proven production. That's a ton of impact players.

 

HB was a first team All Pro a year ago. Can't ask for much more.

 

 Those guys would not come here unless we overpaid. I dont think we get Wentz if he is cut by the Colts he would have signed somewhere else. 

Edited June 7, 2022 by Redskins 2021

[FootballZombie]

2 minutes ago, Redskins 2021 said:

 Those guys would not come here unless we overpaid. I dont think we get Wentz if he is cut by the Colts he would have signed somewhere else. 

 

Maybe you could, maybe you couldn't. We didn't try.

Regardless, somebody new was coming in at QB.

 

Its all hypothetical, who's to say what happens. We will never know.

[Skinsinparadise]

3 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

The "contract negotiations" part of the delay could also be on Terry's side.  They might want to wait as long as possible too, because the number keeps rising while they just sit there. 

 

 

 

According to both local and national reporters and Ron himself, its not on Terry's side its on Washington's side.  Ron telegraphed from the jump that they'd deal with Terry's contract after the draft, and alluded to the summer, same time they did Allen's contract.  And a couple of national reporters have alluded to Terry's side being if anything annoyed at how this FO has slow played this.

 

But I agree if anything its played to Terry's favor in a big way so if Terry's side were annoyed I doubt they are anymore. 

Edited June 7, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[SkinsFTW]

2 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Doing what kind of dumb stuff we don't believe?  I think we believe most of it.  But what dumb stuff, and I'm talking specifically contractually, have they been doing for ages?

 

And don't bring up Kirk.  He was overly leveraged, and he played that to his strength.

 

 

You don't believe that waiting, at minimum, an extra 6 extra months to sign the guy they put on everything team related (McLaurin) was a bad idea.

 

Cost/value has no meaning with you, I get it!

 

You also didn't think they should have done it with KC either. Or Sherff. Or Williams (not Samuels) just wanted out. Who wouldn't.

 

Look at the guy you mentioned, Samuels. Just about anywhere else in the league he'd be in the HOF. Instead he stood strong in the middle of the dumpster fire for a decade. He's probably a martyr to Williams btw, lol. 

 

You should apply for a FO position, IMO! 

[-9-]

10 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Some of the pro Watson people were intense.  

 

10 hours ago, KDawg said:

Oh I was raked over coals for not wanting him. 

 

 

just curious ... which thread was this?

 

[SkinsFTW]

24 minutes ago, FootballZombie said:

 

Maybe you could, maybe you couldn't. We didn't try.

 

 

How do you know they didn't try?

 

Maybe Mathieu just preferred NO. He did actually say that was where he wanted to go all along, after the Chiefs dumped him. I'm thinking he would have actually preferred to stay in KC but given the choices? 

[FootballZombie]

Just now, SkinsFTW said:

How do you know they didn't try?

 

We have reporting that said we did not chase more expensive targets, even if we liked both the player and the fit, after the acquisition of Wentz which occurred b4 FA. Even if said player had previously put on record that he would "Love to play for Rivera" like Bradberry did.

 

It tracks pretty well along the lines with how our Free Agency played out and makes sense for how we actually operated.

 

 

The idea that we would be more assertive on player acquisition in a sans Wentz environment is a machination of my own, but I don't see that as much of a stretch in any way.