All things defense

[Skinsinparadise]

3 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

Rodriguez feels like our best player from that draft, but I think Quan will end up being good too.  I've still got hope for Forbes too, and think he has a chance to bounce back with better coaching and scheming.

 

I'm also not giving up on Daniels yet either.  He was a late round favorite of mine even though I think we drafted him too early.  I like him better than Paul and Charles and I'm kind of eyeballing him for the LG job somewhere down the road when he gets strong enough to start.  I think he also has some swing tackle potential because of his speed.

 

Speaking of Paul, he was a disaster at guard, and I'm wondering why we don't try him at his natural RT position?  That's where I always felt he was best suited.

 

I like Rodriguez.  I like Robinson too.  We just need a fast-speed back IMO to make that RB room well rounded.

 

Judging by camp reports Stromberg looked good in camp, Daniels didn't.  I talked up Daniels some in the draft thread last year, didn't love him, but liked his tools.  Not sure what i think now. 

 

Quan was one of my favorite players in thar draft.  A poor man's Brian Branch but with similar skill sets. 

 

I know Keim said they liked Paul better at guard because he struggled in camp at RT.

 

As for Forbes, i don't know.  I've head they are frustrated with his footwork among other things.  But he clearly has talent.  And I agree the coaching sucks.  Look at Montez Sweat become this beast in short order in Chicago while making fun of the "culture" in Washington.  He's helped reshape the Bears defense.

[Going Commando]

3 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Yep. Logan Paulsen has talked about this some suggesting yes the LB isn't as important as it once was but when you watch teams like SF with elite LBs you can see how it changes a defense.

 

I don't understand why Grant Paulsen and so many others seem to think we didn't invest in the LBer position when we spent a 2021 first round pick on one.  It was a huge investment, way more than San Feancisco's third and fifth round picks spent on Warner and Greenlaw.  The problem is who we picked, not our level of investment or the way we value the position as a whole.  We should have either picked Owusu-Koromoah or Lloyd, and instead invested in inferior players because we've had a problem with first round reaching and bad talent evaluation.

[Skinsinparadise]

12 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

 

I don't understand why Grant Paulsen and so many others seem to think we didn't invest in the LBer position when we spent a 2021 first round pick on one.  It was a huge investment, way more than San Feancisco's third and fifth round picks spent on Warner and Greenlaw.  The problem is who we picked, not our level of investment or the way we value the position as a whole.  We should have either picked Owusu-Koromoah or Lloyd, and instead invested in inferior players because we've had a problem with first round reaching and bad talent evaluation.

 

Agree that Jamin was a reach in the first but yet an aggressive move for a LB.  But that's been it in 4 years.  Otherwise they've gone cheap in FA.  Lets take them versus the Giants as an example. I read that they had some interest in Blake Martinez but didn't want to pay what NY did.  I heard not long ago from Keim that they had interest in Okereke but didn't want to spend the money.  Again the Giants did.   

 

One swing-reach for Jamin to me doesn't absolve it and paint their approach at LB.  On the aggregate, they haven't done much.  I know you recall I liked Jamin but as the draft got closer I graded him as a 2nd rounder and wanted JOK or Darrisaw at that pick. 

 

But generally aside from Jamin its not a position they've played with in the draft in 4 years and as to FA they bargain basement shop.  Signing Jabril Cox off of Dallas practice squad is the speed this FO plays in at LB.

Edited January 3 by Skinsinparadise

[DWinzit]

At LB they should have gone at Martinez to improve our corp and to keep him from the Giants

 

I still feel they should have moved back into the bottom of the 1st to grab Lloyd in 2022. I still can't believe he fell to the 27th pick.

 

They are still my two big misses at LB but there were also numerous good ones they should have drafted in the middle rounds the past few years and of course Pace last year.

 

I do not have much faith in Cox doing anything speed or not

[SkinsFTW]

Nobody posted in here after the final game so here are the stats.

 

This team had the 32nd ranked defense for points giving up 518 which is 30.4 per game.

 

The next worst team was AZ giving up 26.7 per game.

 

So not only was this defense pathetic. It was 4 points worse than the 2nd worst. \

 

That is historically bad more than likely. 

 

The Broncos gave up 70 in a game but still ended up giving up 105 less total. 

 That is over 6 points better per game so they ended up at 24. 

[kingdaddy]

22 hours ago, SkinsFTW said:

Nobody posted in here after the final game so here are the stats.

 

This team had the 32nd ranked defense for points giving up 518 which is 30.4 per game.

 

The next worst team was AZ giving up 26.7 per game.

 

So not only was this defense pathetic. It was 4 points worse than the 2nd worst. \

 

That is historically bad more than likely. 

 

The Broncos gave up 70 in a game but still ended up giving up 105 less total. 

 That is over 6 points better per game so they ended up at 24. 

Good stuff.....it's a testament to how poorly we were coached given all of the 1st round picks on the defense and none of them were injured. We need speed at LB and a nasty safety in the offseason....from what I can see anyhow. 

[Warhead36]

Watching this Houston-Baltimore game and I'm kinda ok with hiring a defensive coach now. Wouldn't mind Macdonald if he can have our guys flying around like they do. Then hope we can pair that with a stud young franchise QB like in Houston. Talented QB + good D = road to success as well.

[skinny21]

On 1/20/2024 at 5:06 PM, kingdaddy said:

Good stuff.....it's a testament to how poorly we were coached given all of the 1st round picks on the defense and none of them were injured. We need speed at LB and a nasty safety in the offseason....from what I can see anyhow. 

Plus two DEs and a corner or two… we’re so close, lol.  In all seriousness though, I think coaching is huge.  Well, that or I have to give a ton of credit to Bobby McCain for our defensive play in 2022, and that doesn’t really sit right with me.  

[kingdaddy]

7 hours ago, skinny21 said:

Plus two DEs and a corner or two… we’re so close, lol.  In all seriousness though, I think coaching is huge.  Well, that or I have to give a ton of credit to Bobby McCain for our defensive play in 2022, and that doesn’t really sit right with me.  

Do you remember hearing something from St. Juste about how complex Del Rio's coverage schemes are and how they struggled to pick it up? You could see the blown coverages show up all season in games. That speaks to the coaching and the players overthinking instead of attacking. Poor Forbes, his head was probably spinning from day one, hopefully they have him in counseling to get him straightened out. 

[Bifflog]

Just a good video to share...

[RandyHolt]

JDR had a high school DB coach. It's a shame local media doesn't call out these clearly amateur hour hires when they are made. At least just share with us their resumes - they don't have to bash them.

 

On to Whitt we go.

 

New Commanders head coach Dan Quinn hired Whitt for the defensive coordinator job today.  Whitt spent the last three seasons working with Quinn in Dallas, where Whitt’s title was the secondary coach and pass game coordinator. Whitt was viewed as a candidate to take over for Quinn as defensive coordinator in Dallas, but instead he has followed Quinn to Washington. The 45-year-old Whitt has previously been a defensive assistant in Atlanta, Cleveland and Green Bay.

 

Maybe there is hope for Forbes yet. Bland him!

 

Edited February 5 by RandyHolt

[Warhead36]

Whitt is the CB whisperer. Go back to his days with the Packers in the mid 2010s. Just one good CB after another.

 

I think he can turn Forbes around. If he can't, then there is no hope for the kid.

[AlwaysBeRedskins2Me]

On 2/5/2024 at 10:40 AM, Warhead36 said:

Whitt is the CB whisperer. Go back to his days with the Packers in the mid 2010s. Just one good CB after another.

 

I think he can turn Forbes around. If he can't, then there is no hope for the kid.

Darrell Green said that he only needed ten minutes with the kid! Bring DG in!

[Conn]

7 hours ago, AlwaysBeRedskins2Me said:

Darrell Green said that he only needed ten minutes with the kid! Bring DG in!

HOF players with no coaching experience often think from the outside that they can easily “fix” a player. It’s rarely true. 

[Warhead36]

2 hours ago, Conn said:

HOF players with no coaching experience often think from the outside that they can easily “fix” a player. It’s rarely true. 

yeah for real. What kind of advice would Green even give? "Run a 4.2 40 and cover better?" There is a reason most great players don't coach, because you can't coach the freakish ability you were blessed with.

[Conn]

9 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

yeah for real. What kind of advice would Green even give? "Run a 4.2 40 and cover better?" There is a reason most great players don't coach, because you can't coach the freakish ability you were blessed with.

Tons of DB’s come out of college not even backpeddling anymore. Game’s totally different and he probably hasn’t broken down tape in decades. Guy was a freak with a great work ethic which contributed to excellent longevity. But yeah you can’t reach any of that beyond “hey work harder”. lol

 

Yeah, our coaches were terrible. But the fact that he even said out loud “I could fix him in ten minutes” shows how unqualified he is to actually attempt that. That’s a crazy thing to say and even crazier for a non-coach.

[skinsfan66]

24 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

yeah for real. What kind of advice would Green even give? "Run a 4.2 40 and cover better?" There is a reason most great players don't coach, because you can't coach the freakish ability you were blessed with.

Primetime disagrees with you, I would give Darrell a shot with him this offseason it could not hurt. Not as a coach for the season but a mentor after all he did have some good teachers when he played. HOFers like Darrell, Monk, Riggins should visit more often, Dan is gone. 

[Warhead36]

2 minutes ago, skinsfan66 said:

Primetime disagrees with you, I would give Darrell a shot with him this offseason it could not hurt. Not as a coach for the season but a mentor after all he did have some good teachers when he played. HOFers like Darrell, Monk, Riggins should visit more often, Dan is gone. 

Deion can lead boys/young men that much is true.

 

But I'm sick of our fan base constantly yearning for legends of the past. No other fan base does this. None of those guys you mentioned have any experience coaching.

[skinsfan66]

5 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Deion can lead boys/young men that much is true.

 

But I'm sick of our fan base constantly yearning for legends of the past. No other fan base does this. None of those guys you mentioned have any experience coaching.

Not as coaching just visit.  HOF players do need to come back, not as coaches agree.  look at Baltimore, SF, Detroit..... They were out full force.  But a 2 hour by Green hurts nothing.

Edited February 7 by skinsfan66

[Conn]

44 minutes ago, skinsfan66 said:

Primetime disagrees with you, I would give Darrell a shot with him this offseason it could not hurt. Not as a coach for the season but a mentor after all he did have some good teachers when he played. HOFers like Darrell, Monk, Riggins should visit more often, Dan is gone. 

Nah. They should feel extremely welcome in an alumni context around the franchise, they earned it. Season ticket holder events? Sure, go crazy. Invited to a luxury box whenever at Harris’ pleasure? Absolutely, enjoy the show and interact with the fans and team on the sideline before the game.

But we need to lean on the past less and keep them away from the actual football side unless a) they have a coaching background and our staff wants their input or b) its more of a motivational speaker during training camp situation. 
 

But these legends, who aren’t coaches, do not need to be around our players telling them different things than the active coaches are, most of these guys are outside the game now and the game is totally different. 
 

If the team’s player development VP wants to use some of them as mentors, that’s their call and would be based on building a professional relationship with the team outside their status as retired legends. Not everyone is cut out for that just because they were successful in the 80’s. You don’t need old ass John Riggins who used to be able to get away with drinking beer at training camp mentoring a young RB just because of his name lol. 
 

And on the coaching side, you don’t need retired Green who played in a totally different era giving advice to a guy like Forbes that might contradict what the coaching staff wants him doing. Schemes, responsibilities, and DB play in general are totally different now. 
 

Primetime is different, he worked his way up through the coaching world and IS a coach. Most HOF type players can’t teach like that. 

Edited February 7 by Conn

[Warhead36]

7 minutes ago, Conn said:

Nah. They should feel extremely welcome in an alumni context around the franchise, they earned it. Season ticket holder events? Sure, go crazy. Invited to a luxury box whenever at Harris’ pleasure? Absolutely, enjoy the show and interact with the fans and team on the sideline before the game.

But we need to lean on the past less and keep them away from the actual football side unless a) they have a coaching background and our staff wants their input or b) its more of a motivational speaker during training camp situation. 
 

But these legends, who aren’t coaches, do not need to be around our players telling them different things than the active coaches are, most of these guys are outside the game now and the game is totally different. 
 

If the team’s player development VP wants to use some of them as mentors, that’s their call and would be based on building a professional relationship with the team outside their status as retired legends. Not everyone is cut out for that just because they were successful in the 80’s. You don’t need old ass John Riggins who used to be able to get away with drinking beer at training camp mentoring a young RB just because of his name lol. 
 

Primetime is different, he worked his way up through the coaching world and IS a coach. Most HOF type players can’t teach like that. 

^^this guy gets it

 

Also, today's players have no idea who Riggins or Monk even are. They're in their 20s. They might even be too young for the Moss/Portis/Cooley era.

Edited February 7 by Warhead36

[RabidFan]

28 minutes ago, Conn said:

Nah. They should feel extremely welcome in an alumni context around the franchise, they earned it. Season ticket holder events? Sure, go crazy. Invited to a luxury box whenever at Harris’ pleasure? Absolutely, enjoy the show and interact with the fans and team on the sideline before the game.

But we need to lean on the past less and keep them away from the actual football side unless a) they have a coaching background and our staff wants their input or b) its more of a motivational speaker during training camp situation. 
 

But these legends, who aren’t coaches, do not need to be around our players telling them different things than the active coaches are, most of these guys are outside the game now and the game is totally different. 
 

If the team’s player development VP wants to use some of them as mentors, that’s their call and would be based on building a professional relationship with the team outside their status as retired legends. Not everyone is cut out for that just because they were successful in the 80’s. You don’t need old ass John Riggins who used to be able to get away with drinking beer at training camp mentoring a young RB just because of his name lol. 
 

Primetime is different, he worked his way up through the coaching world and IS a coach. Most HOF type players can’t teach like that. 

So are you then against Kerrigan working with the DL and trying to give Chase some new moves to his repertoire?  Didn't we all think it was kind of cool when Sapp was in the last two training camps giving tips to our DTs even though he has no coaching experience?

 

Would you be against Jerry Rice stopping by for a couple days to help Dotson or any young WR on how they approached the game?  I wouldn't nor would I if DG actually wanted to meet with the DBs and let them pick his brain.  These HOF'ers aren't like MJ who would berate young bucks and school them in embarrassing ways.  I would have no problem with it especially if they have seen stuff they think could just add to the DB to think about.  IMHO

[Conn]

17 minutes ago, RabidFan said:

So are you then against Kerrigan working with the DL and trying to give Chase some new moves to his repertoire?  Didn't we all think it was kind of cool when Sapp was in the last two training camps giving tips to our DTs even though he has no coaching experience?

 

Would you be against Jerry Rice stopping by for a couple days to help Dotson or any young WR on how they approached the game?  I wouldn't nor would I if DG actually wanted to meet with the DBs and let them pick his brain.  These HOF'ers aren't like MJ who would berate young bucks and school them in embarrassing ways.  I would have no problem with it especially if they have seen stuff they think could just add to the DB to think about.  IMHO

If the coaching staff respects their knowledge and knows they’ll teach things in a way they approve of, that’s fine. Kerrigan started as an intern, then as an assistant to an assistant coach and learned how to coach. The staff was bad, I have no idea if Kerrigan is a good coach. But it seemed there was some improvement once the old DL coach was fired and we traded the malcontents. So maybe he’s a good coach. But either way he went through a hiring process, started low on the totem poll, and learned what they wanted him to teach. 
 

Nothing wrong with that. The Lions have a staff full of ex-players. Some of them are really good coaches. But they started at the bottom and work for the team. They grind tape. They work the same hours as everyone else. They’re part of the program and culture. They aren’t old dudes who haven’t broken down tape in decades just giving off the cuff suggestions. That can be helpful, but it can also be harmful.
 

Having legends talk to the team (or individually mentor players) about their mindset is different. They can be cut out for that job if the staff in charge of player development build a relationship with them and see value in it. Or if Quinn or somebody arranges to have them come talk to the 90-man roster in training camp, whatever. That can be different. It’s not a DB who last played over 20 years ago and doesn’t know our scheme or what we’re teaching, trying to give advice about when to turn your hips. That’s what you don’t want unless the coaching staff has a plan with that mentor and they talk about all that stuff. A lot of times you’re actually trying to remove things to give young players less to think about, not more. And definitely not conflicting info. 
 

I’m fine with anything the coaching staff is fine with btw. I’m simply advocating for being the type of building that speaks with one voice and does things one way, not a building where the owner has legends walking the halls freelancing on who they’re talking to about on-field matters that belong to the coaching staff. That won’t be a problem with this staff, I’m just saying I don’t as a fan have a personal blanket “yes” policy to having these old timers around talking to our players just because they were good at their very different jobs in the 1980’s. They do not always have things to teach, sorry. You don’t want conflicting voices and coaching. Most of these guys belong at an alumni buffet where they can meet and greet fans. Not in the locker room or on the practice fields. Most of them do not coach and cannot teach. 

[RabidFan]

1 hour ago, Conn said:

If the coaching staff respects their knowledge and knows they’ll teach things in a way they approve of, that’s fine. Kerrigan started as an intern, then as an assistant to an assistant coach and learned how to coach. The staff was bad, I have no idea if Kerrigan is a good coach. But it seemed there was some improvement once the old DL coach was fired and we traded the malcontents. So maybe he’s a good coach. But either way he went through a hiring process, started low on the totem poll, and learned what they wanted him to teach. 
 

Nothing wrong with that. The Lions have a staff full of ex-players. Some of them are really good coaches. But they started at the bottom and work for the team. They grind tape. They work the same hours as everyone else. They’re part of the program and culture. They aren’t old dudes who haven’t broken down tape in decades just giving off the cuff suggestions. That can be helpful, but it can also be harmful.
 

Having legends talk to the team (or individually mentor players) about their mindset is different. They can be cut out for that job if the staff in charge of player development build a relationship with them and see value in it. Or if Quinn or somebody arranges to have them come talk to the 90-man roster in training camp, whatever. That can be different. It’s not a DB who last played over 20 years ago and doesn’t know our scheme or what we’re teaching, trying to give advice about when to turn your hips. That’s what you don’t want unless the coaching staff has a plan with that mentor and they talk about all that stuff. A lot of times you’re actually trying to remove things to give young players less to think about, not more. And definitely not conflicting info. 
 

I’m fine with anything the coaching staff is fine with btw. I’m simply advocating for being the type of building that speaks with one voice and does things one way, not a building where the owner has legends walking the halls freelancing on who they’re talking to about on-field matters that belong to the coaching staff. That won’t be a problem with this staff, I’m just saying I don’t as a fan have a personal blanket “yes” policy to having these old timers around talking to our players just because they were good at their very different jobs in the 1980’s. They do not always have things to teach, sorry. You don’t want conflicting voices and coaching. Most of these guys belong at an alumni buffet where they can meet and greet fans. Not in the locker room or on the practice fields. Most of them do not coach and cannot teach. 

Totally agree with your final paragraph.  I wasn't thinking the "legends" would teach them schematic things just basics too look for and things like footwork, body control, qb and wr tendencies.  I'm not thinking all former players would 'coach' the kids just saying they can look at an individuals game tape and give tips on basic fundamentals they maybe weren't taught in college or honed in on because they were elite athletes facing at times opposing players that will never sniff the NFL.   That is all I meant with that.

[RandyHolt]

What kind of help can Darrell give Forbes? For one a new voice certainly would have little risk.

 

Players can help other players fix problems. Maybe tell him something more than a FREAKING high school coach did. Sharing his experiences including as one of the smaller DBs. It's a guess at most to say veteran players cannot help fix a young struggling player. A player at rock bottom. Maybe Forbes needed coaches to tell him something other than focus on INTs. Which he was clearly stressed about as he had stone hands at every chance. Side note: I still think his INT vs Denver hit the ground.  He was hardly alone - all the DBs were desperately falling for doubles to get INTs.

 

After so many reps I am convinced the game becomes largely mental. Just listening can help, especially if its someone the player respects. No one respected our DC and DB coach. The message will get through more than a high school gym teachers did. Darrell would have probably simply told him stop over thinking - just go play man.

Edited February 7 by RandyHolt