Heinicke Hive: The LEGEND of Taylor Heinicke Thread

[mistertim]

1 hour ago, Thinking Skins said:

But you're comparing a 12 year veteran Stafford. I'm saying look at rookie Stafford up to say 28 year old Stafford. His 2014 numbers were very similar to Heinicke's stats this year. Heck if you look at Stafford's stats over his career you see him collapse in November and December after starting hot. He is not some QB thats untouchable for Heinicke. His QBRs over his first 6 years were 37, 50, 60, 56, 53, and 47. Dude had a lot of mediocre years. I think its definitely possible for Heinicke to put a team on his back like Stafford if not better. 

 

But its not about Stafford, its about the argument that these guys are a tier above Heinicke. I'm saying they're not. Even if you want to say that Stafford is now, I'm saying that as recent a 2 years ago he wasn't when he had a QBR of 51. Heinicke may never be in the Mahomes/Brady/Rodgers league but he is definitely one of those middle of the pack QBs that can go for a run and take his team to the playoffs and possibly win in the playoffs because he's doing it right now. 

 

Then Heinicke should have netted us at the very least a 2nd round pick if he's so good. But probably a 1st if he's as good as Stafford, who netted a 1st plus more.

 

Why haven't we gotten any offers?

 

Do you think maybe, just maybe NFL coaches and GMs know more about QBs than you?

 

I'd challenge you to find a single GM or coach who believes Taylor Heinicke is as good as Matt Stafford. I mean...not that you're necessarily in contact with a bunch of them so it's mostly rhetorical. But I'd wager a lot of money that you wouldn't find a single one.

 

But I'm sure they're all just too dumb to understand the majesty that is Heinicke.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

I have Heinicke ranked somewhere in the 2-to-31 range...And I stand by that.

[mistertim]

Just now, Califan007 said:

I have Heinicke ranked somewhere in the 2-to-31 range...And I stand by that.

 

****ing blasphemer. Who the hell are you to say he's not #1? HAVE YOU SEEN HIS QBR???

[Califan007 The Constipated]

1 minute ago, mistertim said:

 

****ing blasphemer. Who the hell are you to say he's not #1? HAVE YOU SEEN HIS QBR???

 

I also said he wasn't #32 lol...he's not the best but he's not the worst. I think that's pretty accurate if I do say so myself. (blows on fingernails)

[goskins10]

38 minutes ago, Califan007 said:

 

I also said he wasn't #32 lol...he's not the best but he's not the worst. I think that's pretty accurate if I do say so myself. (blows on fingernails)

 

 

[Tarpon75]

3 hours ago, Thinking Skins said:

https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2021/12/3/22815653/taylor-heinicke-washington-football-team-future

 

     What Is Taylor Heinicke’s Future With the Washington Football Team?

 

This is a good writeup. 

It’s a good article but don’t feel like it is entirely accurate. I would argue that some of the negatives attributed to Taylor are a little overstated. Don’t think he plays like he is unaware of his surroundings at all. I think he is getting better and better as far as game management and playing under control.Taylor  seems to be improving weekly on that front. The writer doesn’t really seem to give him much room for improvement. While Garaffalo is a fair comparison in  a lot of ways he has played a lot more football in the league than Taylor has. JG is probably around his max potential.

     Like I said, overall a good article just don’t agree with a lot of his takes.

[wit33]

1 hour ago, mistertim said:

 

Then Heinicke should have netted us at the very least a 2nd round pick if he's so good. But probably a 1st if he's as good as Stafford, who netted a 1st plus more.

 

Why haven't we gotten any offers?

 

Do you think maybe, just maybe NFL coaches and GMs know more about QBs than you?

 

I'd challenge you to find a single GM or coach who believes Taylor Heinicke is as good as Matt Stafford. I mean...not that you're necessarily in contact with a bunch of them so it's mostly rhetorical. But I'd wager a lot of money that you wouldn't find a single one.

 

But I'm sure they're all just too dumb to understand the majesty that is Heinicke.

Only if there was evidence of front offices getting it wrong with quarterbacks.  

 

Stafford is a better QB than Heineke. 

[mistertim]

1 hour ago, Tarpon75 said:

It’s a good article but don’t feel like it is entirely accurate. I would argue that some of the negatives attributed to Taylor are a little overstated. Don’t think he plays like he is unaware of his surroundings at all. I think he is getting better and better as far as game management and playing under control.Taylor  seems to be improving weekly on that front. The writer doesn’t really seem to give him much room for improvement. While Garaffalo is a fair comparison in  a lot of ways he has played a lot more football in the league than Taylor has. JG is probably around his max potential.

     Like I said, overall a good article just don’t agree with a lot of his takes.

 

I get the feeling that "unaware of his surroundings" wasn't so much a dig at Heinicke mentally or his ability to process information, more that at times he doesn't seem to realize there are certain throws he just can't make. I actually agree with the article that Jimmy G is a decent comparison for him.

 

But one thing I do disagree with a bit in that article is about Turner. I do think Turner has evolved his game plan over the last several games to try and limit things TH struggles with and emphasize the things he's better at.

 

The article basically said that Turner's whole offense is based on throws that a guy with a below average arm struggles with. Closer to the beginning of the season I probably would have agreed, but over the last few games it seems like he's tailored his game plan more to TH's strengths. For example I've noticed far less outside the numbers out routes that Heinicke struggled with (and almost got picked off on at least 4-5 times over the first several games) and more short and intermediate routes between the numbers.

 

Turner may ideally want a QB with a much bigger arm, but he's not stupid. I'm sure he knows what TH's limitations are and he wants to win games, so he started to reevaluate his system a bit IMO.

Edited December 3, 2021 by mistertim

[zCommander]

2 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

Then Heinicke should have netted us at the very least a 2nd round pick if he's so good. But probably a 1st if he's as good as Stafford, who netted a 1st plus more.

 

Why haven't we gotten any offers?

 

Do you think maybe, just maybe NFL coaches and GMs know more about QBs than you?

 

I'd challenge you to find a single GM or coach who believes Taylor Heinicke is as good as Matt Stafford. I mean...not that you're necessarily in contact with a bunch of them so it's mostly rhetorical. But I'd wager a lot of money that you wouldn't find a single one.

 

But I'm sure they're all just too dumb to understand the majesty that is Heinicke.

 

Wait what? 

 

You know GM and coaches who think Taylor is not as good as Stafford because you have them on your speed dial. But you want someone else to find out for you he is not. 

You love to say things that are not even real. But you make it like they are FACTS. You have no clue what coaches and GM are thinking of Taylor and who they think he compares to and what his value is. But in your mind you see it all so clear. 

 

By the way you just compared a 10 year vet to a 1st year red shirt for a 1st or 2nd round draft pick. 

You also make it seem like just because someone paid a 1st round for them that makes them a really good QB. You seem to not realize that is the price Lions were asking not what his worth is. Desperate teams overpay all of the times. 

[mistertim]

12 minutes ago, zskins said:

 

Wait what? 

 

You know GM and coaches who think Taylor is not as good as Stafford because you have them on your speed dial. But you want someone else to find out for you he is not. 

You love to say things that are not even real. But you make it like they are FACTS. You have no clue what coaches and GM are thinking of Taylor and who they think he compares to and what his value is. But in your mind you see it all so clear. 

 

By the way you just compared a 10 year vet to a 1st year red shirt for a 1st or 2nd round draft pick. 

You also make it seem like just because someone paid a 1st round for them that makes them a really good QB. You seem to not realize that is the price Lions were asking not what his worth is. Desperate teams overpay all of the times. 

 

No, I don't have NFL GM or coaches on speed dial and I don't sit in on their meetings. But tell me honestly...do you truly think anyone has offered a 1st round pick for Taylor Heinicke? I know you really dig him (and I do like him in general as well) but in your heart of hearts can you seriously tell me you think it's likely that that happened? And if it did we turned it down?

 

If our FO truly thought Heinicke was the future of this franchise they would have said so many times over by now. But most of what they've said is how important it is to find your franchise QB and getting an upgrade. Maybe Heinicke will change their minds, but it feels like that's likely to be an uphill battle.

 

And sure, people overpay for QBs. Maybe the Rams overpaid for Stafford. But he's playing at a borderline All-Pro level right now. And I'd say GMs and coaches, while they'll overpay some (just due to positional value of QBs), do know more about QBs than most people on a message board. And both the WFT and Rams coaches and FOs thought Stafford was good enough to offer a 1st round pick and more for him.

 

And anyway, I'm not the one who really brought up Stafford in general. He was on the list that @Thinking Skinsput out there and then claimed that Heinicke might be just as good a QB. I found that very dubious and explained why.

Edited December 3, 2021 by mistertim

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

Edited December 3, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[zCommander]

1 hour ago, mistertim said:

 

No, I don't have NFL GM or coaches on speed dial and I don't sit in on their meetings. But tell me honestly...do you truly think anyone has offered a 1st round pick for Taylor Heinicke? I know you really dig him (and I do like him in general as well) but in your heart of hearts can you seriously tell me you think it's likely that that happened? And if it did we turned it down?

 

If our FO truly thought Heinicke was the future of this franchise they would have said so many times over by now. But most of what they've said is how important it is to find your franchise QB and getting an upgrade. Maybe Heinicke will change their minds, but it feels like that's likely to be an uphill battle.

 

And sure, people overpay for QBs. Maybe the Rams overpaid for Stafford. But he's playing at a borderline All-Pro level right now. And I'd say GMs and coaches, while they'll overpay some (just due to positional value of QBs), do know more about QBs than most people on a message board. And both the WFT and Rams coaches and FOs thought Stafford was good enough to offer a 1st round pick and more for him.

 

And anyway, I'm not the one who really brought up Stafford in general. He was on the list that @Thinking Skinsput out there and then claimed that Heinicke might be just as good a QB. I found that very dubious and explained why.

 

Read what you said that I highlighted. This is the part of your post now and before that makes no sense whatsoever. You keep harping on this. But, how the hell someone is going to give you a 1st rounder for Taylor when this is his first year starting (the season is not even over yet). Also people forget that this is the first time since college he has had the opportunity to be practicing with the 1st team unit. 

 

I get it. He doesn't have a strong arm. But he does so much other stuff to make up for it. The other stuff that he has not even Stafford has. So for this ONE thing we want to write of Taylor? Why not just ride it out and see where we are with him after the season. Hell if we are in the playoffs we won't be in position to get a QB from a draft that doesn't even have a good QB class. I could see Taylor starting next year too. 

 

Do I dig him. Yes. He brings lots of energy to the table. We haven't had a dynamic like him in a long time. Kirk came pretty close to that but Kirk also gave you lots of heartburns too. I feel with Taylor that is a lot less. He brings the confidence that the fans need right now. 

 

If somehow we end up in the conference game would you be mad that it was because of Taylor? Has the book written on Taylor yet. Nope, too early to say who he compares too and what his value is. If he does become a valuable player then you keep him and not trade him. 

 

Edited December 3, 2021 by zskins

[mistertim]

7 minutes ago, zskins said:

 

Read what you said that I highlighted. This is the part of your post now and before that makes no sense whatsoever. You keep harping on this. But, how the hell someone is going to give you a 1st rounder for Taylor when this is his first year starting (the season is not even over yet). Also people forget that this is the first time since college he has had the opportunity to be practicing with the 1st team unit. 

 

I get it. He doesn't have a strong arm. But he does so much other stuff to make up for it. The other stuff that he has not even Stafford has. So for this ONE thing we want to write of Taylor? Why not just ride it out and see where we are with him after the season. Hell if we are in the playoffs we won't be in position to get a QB from a draft that doesn't even have a good QB class. I could see Taylor starting next year too. 

 

Do I dig him. Yes. He brings lots of energy to the table. We haven't had a dynamic like him in a long time. Kirk came pretty close to that but Kirk also gave you lost of heartburns too. I feel with Taylor that is a lot less. He brings the confidence that the fans need right now. 

 

If somehow we end up in the conference game would you be mad that it was because of Taylor? Has the book written on Taylor yet. Nope, too early to say who he compares too and what his value is. If he does become a valuable player then you keep him and not trade him. 

 

Ok, do you think his trade value is a 1st rounder? That's what the gist of the discussion was regarding @Thinking Skinsclaiming he thought TH was as good as Stafford, who netted a 1st rounder plus.

 

And who is "writing off" Heinicke? Disagreeing about him being as good a QB as Matt Stafford is not "writing him off." I think the jury is still out on him. He's played well the last few games but he's had an up and down season. He can be exciting at times but I think you may be overblowing that a bit. Maybe because of his personality? The truth is he's much more of a game manager at the moment than a big time playmaker. Which isn't necessarily a terrible thing. You can win with a game manager, a good running game, and a good defense. But you're unlikely to be a perennial contender that way.

 

If we end up in a conference game, cool. That's not how I'm evaluating Heinicke. I'm evaluating his in game performances. If we end up in the playoffs and/or a conference game and it's because TH has been killing it and throwing a ton of TDs, that's awesome. That will tell me that he may actually end up as a top 10 kind of guy and we may have finally found out QB. If we get in and he's doing ok but mostly doing enough to not lose or cost the team the game, then I'll still be kind of meh on him. I'd be ok with keeping him as a starter next year but I'd still be looking for an upgrade.

[goskins10]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Good balanced article, just came out today about Heinicke.  

 

Ironically, he thinks the best comp to him is Jimmy G. 

 

 

 

 

For as delightful as Heinicke is, offseason sobriety is coming: This is yet another year in which Rivera will look at an offense with impressive weapons and a good coordinator, a defense that (after a horrible start to the season) has settled into quality play, and a massive question mark at the quarterback position. Washington ended the 2020 season with enough juice from Heinicke to give him a modest extension, keeping him in the building to fight for the backup quarterback job. For the 2021 season, Heinicke might present a more viable solution to the vacant starting job, but he’s still far from a slam dunk. The expectations, and the question, for Heinicke have changed. Nobody’s still wondering if he can hang in the NFL —he clearly can. Now, we’re wondering just what he can become.

 

Heinicke didn’t make waves during the pre-draft process. College quarterbacks who present value to the league typically have elite measurables or elite college stats; Heinicke had neither. Heinicke is a 6-foot-1 quarterback who is notably lacking in arm strength, and at the college level, he didn’t garner elite production in his four-year starting career. Old Dominion was an FCS school for his first two seasons; by the time they landed in Conference USA, when Heinicke was a senior, he completed 63 percent of his passes for 7.6 yards per attempt and had a touchdown-to-interception ratio just shy of 2-to-1. That same season, Garrett Grayson, a four-year starter at Colorado State, had stronger production across the board and a pro frame to boot. Grayson was drafted in the third round in 2015; Heinicke went through that draft without hearing his name called.

 

The lack of physical tools is still reflected in Heinicke’s game. He’s not very tall or powerful, and accordingly, he struggles to deliver the ball downfield or from the far hash. Heinicke often leaves any throw that demands arm strength out to dry, which gives defenders time to play on the football or forces his receivers to work back to underthrown passes, limiting potential explosive plays.

This is a fairly common limitation for otherwise impressive quarterbacks in the NFL. Some, like Joe Burrow and Tua Tagovailoa, have such high-caliber skills in the other areas of quarterback play that they’re able to mask this issue; others, like Matt Ryan, Philip Rivers, Drew Brees, and Ben Roethlisberger, have so many years of experience under their belt that they know how to maximize the limited field presented by their diminishing arms.

Heinicke does not fit into either of those groups.

 

I don’t think Heinicke knows that he has a below-average arm by league standards—but if he does know, he simply doesn’t give a hoot. 

 

...In the discussion of arm strength and its limitations, we come to an important inflection point. Throwing arms aren’t strong or weak on a two-dimensional spectrum, but rather have to be divided into categories based on throw type. Some quarterbacks, like Baker Mayfield and Mason Rudolph, can launch deep moon shots, but struggle with velocity when throwing the ball on a line 15 to 20 yards downfield; other quarterbacks, like Heinicke, don’t have the distance on their arms to stretch the field, but can put some extra mustard on throws in the short areas of the field.

 

This is reflected in Heinicke’s numbers as a thrower. Washington seems hell-bent on making Heinicke work outside of the numbers, with a heavy reliance on intermediate, out-breaking routes, but Heinecke doesn’t really have the power to make those throws. Of the 24 quarterbacks who have attempted at least 50 passes outside of the numbers and farther than 10 yards downfield this season, only three—Sam Darnold, Trevor Lawrence, and Heinicke—have negative points earned on such passes, per Sports Info Solutions. No quarterback with at least 10 such attempts has a lower points earned per play than Heinicke does.

Instead of throws outside of the numbers, look at throws inside of the numbers, and Heinicke’s points earned per play jumps to 11th

in the league. That’s where his zip, the aggressive play style, and quick release end up mattering more.

 

Strictly as a passer, Garoppolo is as neat of a comparison to Heinicke as there is currently in the league. They both quarterback like drunk college kids: unaware of their surroundings, undeterred by challenges that clear-minded quarterbacks wouldn’t dare attempt, and absolutely lost if things go even slightly awry. 

 

...It may feel like this is a death knell comparison for Heinicke; after all, the 49ers are trying to move on from Garoppolo, just as McVay moved on from Jared Goff and the Browns may move on from Mayfield in similar offensive structures. But, even with Heinicke’s superior athletic ability and penchant for scrambling aside, it really isn’t. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with being a Garoppolo, a Tyrod Taylor, a Teddy Bridgewater: a good, but limited quarterback who can excel in ideal contexts and win a few games off the bench. You can carve out a nice, long, lucrative career if you fit that description. Just ask Ryan Fitzpatrick.

 

But of course, the feeling remains: the hope, the wish, that Heinicke might be more. It’s not dissimilar to the trance that Nick Foles put on Jacksonville and Chicago during the past few seasons: A quarterback who’s just good enough to hang around, and inevitably makes his best plays in the biggest moments, is both an easy and fun trap to fall into. But there is a difference between fun and good, and unfortunately, Heinicke falls toward the former more than he does the latter.

 

For Washington, right now, that just may be enough. Functional offense—not elite offense, not explosive offense–has delivered Washington to their three hard-fought wins and a leading position on the NFC wild-card bubble; against a beatable Las Vegas team on Sunday, it very well could lead them to their fourth win, and an even stronger position to repeat in the playoffs. And if that’s all Heinicke gives them–a .500 offense, a solid hope for playoff contention—during his career, that’s OK. Because it also gives Washington something else, something arguably more precious: time. It gives the Football Team time to figure out their roster, their strengths, and their weaknesses (maybe even their team name, for goodness’ sake!). And as everything around Heinicke comes into better clarity, they can wait for the right moment to upgrade at quarterback and surge into NFC contention.

 

That may be a raw deal for Heinicke to run the race, but not cross the finish line, but there’s no doubt that he’ll give us quite the show as he fights to hold on to this job for as long as possible. And while Washington worries about the fun-good distinction, we can just watch the fun unfold.

 

 

 

Interesting article - in fairness it was posted earlier by @Thinking Skins 🙂  

 

Like @mistertim he loses me on the discussion about the offense and forcing him to throw outside the numbers. I think we all see Scott is tailoring his offense around Taylor which BTW is exactly what a good OC is supposed to do. I know some are down on Scott but not sure how anyone can be down on him yet high on Taylor. Scott is doing a great job of working with Taylor to work the offense to his strengths. And Taylor is working his butt off to make it happen and run the offense Scott wants. They are forming a really good partnership and it's showing up on the field.  

 

I also agree with @Tarpon75 While I don't think it was an intentional shot, I disagree that "They both quarterback like drunk college kids: unaware of their surroundings, undeterred by challenges that clear-minded quarterbacks wouldn’t dare attempt, and absolutely lost if things go even slightly awry." Has he even watched Taylor play at all? When plays break down that is where is best skills come alive. 

 

@ODU AGGIE Please read this. It's from the article and is In response to you posting that clip of a throw a few pages back. 

"In the discussion of arm strength and its limitations, we come to an important inflection point. Throwing arms aren’t strong or weak on a two-dimensional spectrum, but rather have to be divided into categories based on throw type. Some quarterbacks, like Baker Mayfield and Mason Rudolph, can launch deep moon shots, but struggle with velocity when throwing the ball on a line 15 to 20 yards downfield; other quarterbacks, like Heinicke, don’t have the distance on their arms to stretch the field, but can put some extra mustard on throws in the short areas of the field."

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

8 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

 

Interesting article - in fairness it was posted earlier by @Thinking Skins 🙂  

 

 

 

Oops sorry, I missed it,   I might replace then with something else. 

[zCommander]

 

4 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

Ok, do you think his trade value is a 1st rounder? That's what the gist of the discussion was regarding @Thinking Skinsclaiming he thought TH was as good as Stafford, who netted a 1st rounder plus.

 

One can compare the ability of one player without attaching a value to the said player. Saying he is like Stafford doesn't mean his value is like Stafford. His abilities were being compared not his value. You on the other hand is. 

 

4 minutes ago, mistertim said:

And who is "writing off" Heinicke? Disagreeing about him being as good a QB as Matt Stafford is not "writing him off." I think the jury is still out on him. He's played well the last few games but he's had an up and down season. He can be exciting at times but I think you may be overblowing that a bit. Maybe because of his personality? The truth is he's much more of a game manager at the moment than a big time playmaker. Which isn't necessarily a terrible thing. You can win with a game manager, a good running game, and a good defense. But you're unlikely to be a perennial contender that way.

 

People who are ready to move from Taylor because of his weak arm. Not because of Stafford. Many have said he is a damn good backup and borderline starter. You have also said you can't keep on winning with Taylor on long term basis. Why not? There is no one formula that fits all. Just because it hasn't been done before doesn't mean you can't do it. You can always build the team with the right players and a game manager can keep on getting you those wins. Ground and pound and a serviceable QB also wins you lots of game and SB rings. Ask Joe Gibbs he knows. We have tried the flashy QB things for the last 20+years. It hasn't worked for us. Maybe that is why I am liking what I am seeing. It is different. It feels good right now. I will ride the Taylor train until it runs out of steam. Then yes sure. Next man up. 

 

3 minutes ago, mistertim said:

If we end up in a conference game, cool. That's not how I'm evaluating Heinicke. I'm evaluating his in game performances. If we end up in the playoffs and/or a conference game and it's because TH has been killing it and throwing a ton of TDs, that's awesome. That will tell me that he may actually end up as a top 10 kind of guy and we may have finally found out QB. If we get in and he's doing ok but mostly doing enough to not lose or cost the team the game, then I'll still be kind of meh on him. I'd be ok with keeping him as a starter next year but I'd still be looking for an upgrade.

 

I am also looking at his game performance. Sure he needs to clean up some stuff. Other QBs in the league also make stupid mistakes and throws. You just learn form it and get better at. The more experience you have the better you are at doing something. Again, i am not grading Taylor by how many TDs he puts up. How many TDs we get is more important. How is he moving the chains without throwing any picks. That is more important. Aside from his weak arm you are not going to get an upgrade that you are looking for with all other qualities and tangibles Taylor has including the IT factor. 

 

 

[wit33]

How Heineke gets compared to Jimmy G who ran close to a 5 flat in his 40 yard dash is beyond me. If one wants to make a comparison it must be a dude with great running abilities. (Didn’t read the article). His running ability is his lone physical super power on an NFL field.

[mistertim]

5 minutes ago, zskins said:

 

People who are ready to move from Taylor because of his weak arm. Not because of Stafford. Many have said he is a damn good backup and borderline starter. You have also said you can't keep on winning with Taylor on long term basis. Why not? There is no one formula that fits all. Just because it hasn't been done before doesn't mean you can't do it. You can always build the team with the right players and a game manager can keep on getting you those wins. Ground and pound and a serviceable QB also wins you lots of game and SB rings. Ask Joe Gibbs he knows. We have tried the flashy QB things for the last 20+years. It hasn't worked for us. Maybe that is why I am liking what I am seeing. It is different. It feels good right now. I will ride the Taylor train until it runs out of steam. Then yes sure. Next man up. 

 

 

I'm not "ready to move on" from Taylor at the moment. I've  liked some things I've seen from him but still have questions. And it could end up that I like him enough and am ok with him being the starter but I still would want an upgrade. WFT may very well feel that way too. SF felt ok with Jimmy G but clearly they felt they could get an upgrade so they went hard after Trey Lance. The Chiefs were winning with Alex Smith and still decided to get an upgrade and moved up for Mahomes.

 

And yes you can build a team with a big time supporting cast, dominant defense, and a game manager QB. And if your running game and defense and game manager are good enough you'll probably have about a 2-3 year window to win a SB because stellar supporting casts simply can't be kept together for long nowadays. Ground and pound and controlling the clock and the Joe Gibbs method was 30 years ago. The game has changed. Pretty much every single NFL coach recognizes and admits that. Hell, Rivera is an old school defensive coach and he readily admits that these days you have to have that top franchise QB to be a contender year in and year out.

 

As far as trying the flashy QB thing for 20 years, the problem there isn't that we've been trying, it's that we haven't hit on one. That doesn't mean you just give up and stop. Having a top QB is how you become a long term perennial contender now and every team knows it. So teams keep trying until they find one. Some get luckier than others. We've had ****ty luck, but hopefully that will change at some point in the near future and we'll be a relevant team for the next 10+ years.

[ILikeBilly]

As a fan, I have a simple QB test.  If our QB drops back on third and ten and has a clean pocket, how do you feel as you watch the play develop?

 

With Taylor, I expect a completion and first down.

Alex Smith - completion short of the sticks

Haskins - incompletion

Kirk (in the first  or third quarter or early in the 2nd or 4th quarters) - complete and first down

Kirk (late in the 2nd or 4th quarters) - INT

Robert - complete and first down

 

Now, same situation, but the QB has to run because of coverage... In Taylor I Trust.  

[zCommander]

30 minutes ago, mistertim said:

Hell, Rivera is an old school defensive coach and he readily admits that these days you have to have that top franchise QB to be a contender year in and year out.

 

Do you have a quote from Ron to back that up?

 

You were saying about how this is a passing league. Listen to Ron on how he feels about it at the 10:30 mark. Actually listen to the whole 30 minutes. Maybe you will have a better understanding of what Coach Ron thinks or who he is. This interview was done after the Seattle game. 

 

https://fb.watch/9Gp2l8GlE7/

[goskins10]

5 minutes ago, zskins said:

 

Do you have a quote from Ron to back that up?

 

You were saying about how this is a passing league. Listen to Ron on how he feels about it at the 10:30 mark. Actually listen to the whole 30 minutes. Maybe you will have a better understanding of what Coach Ron thinks or who he is. This interview was done after the Seattle game. 

 

https://fb.watch/9Gp2l8GlE7/

 

https://247sports.com/Article/Washington-Football-Team-Ron-Rivera-Ryan-Fitzpatrick-franchise-quarterback-2021-NFL-Draft-163680555/

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2021/10/26/ron-rivera-wft-constantly-looking-for-a-franchise-quarterback/

https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/sports/nbcsports/washingtons-front-office-constantly-discusses-plan-to-find-franchise-qb/2851536/

https://www.nfl.com/news/ron-rivera-washington-had-big-conversation-about-trading-up-to-draft-a-qb

 

In all those, he talks about needing a franchise QB. So as stated, Ron Rivera has repeatedly stated the need for a franchise QB. Any HC who says otherwise does not coach for a long time. Where he diverges from some is that he started with drafting a franchise QB right away and then built the team at Carolina. He believes you can do it the other way around and it may be more effective so he that is why he has not had a huge sense of urgency and been willing to build the team in other places first.  

To quote him  "[Rivera] acknowledged that you’re “not paying attention” if you aren’t always looking for the quarterback who can take the offense where they want it to go. On if they are looking for a franchise QB - “Constantly,” Rivera said. “That’s something you always talk about. Until you get one, you’re always going to be looking.” At no point has he said Taylor is in fact the franchise QB and they are no longer looking, nor should he, even if he thinks that's true. He plays his cards pretty close to the vest as do all good HCs. 

 

In the interview you posted, yes he says he believes a good running game wins football games but he also talks about doing both well. It is in fact a passing, QB driven league. There can be no denying that. It is a fact. But that does not mean the running game means nothing. In fact it shows you still need to be good at both. We are winning right now with complimentary football, running, passing, defense, and STs most of the time. That's how you win championships. 

 

While I am at it - there is NO ONE that is mad when we win because they have some problem with Taylor, nor will they be. Zero people on this board that I have seen. If there is one or two (I can't read every post, I have to work some time!), they are very much the extreme outlier. Also, I see no one who wants to "move on" from Taylor right now. He has earned the right to finish the season. But let's be honest - before the bye, the way he played those last few really bad losses, it was fair to start pondering a move. This thread was ab out DOA with some of the mainstays stating effectively maybe that's the end of the tide. Glad they did not make a chance and really glad to see Taylor develop. None of that means anyone is rooting for Taylor to fail. May want to move on from those narratives. It distracts from your argument that Taylor is a viable long term solution. 

[mistertim]

Was about to post most of the same stuff but @goskins10beat me to it.

 

It's not hard to see that Ron realizes the need for a franchise QB. I'm guessing Turner is even more adamant about it, albeit more behind closed doors as he's not the HC. Sure, Ron also said it could be possible to have more pieces in place first, but he clearly understands how important a franchise QB is to a winning team nowadays. He certainly didn't say "Yeah our plan is that we can pound the rock, control the clock, have a stingy defense, and have a QB who doesn't make too many mistakes and we'll be home free."

 

He obviously realizes how important the QB position is in today's game.

Edited December 4, 2021 by mistertim

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

It would be interesting to see the Vikings forum in 2017 when Keenum was at the helm for their 13-3 season.

 

I’m curious how many of their fans had convinced themselves that he was a legit starter in the league.

 

He lit it up in college, went undrafted, bounced around a little bit and seemed to have all the stars align that season.  Only to come back to earth in a few different area codes since then.

 

 

[Thinking Skins]

5 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

It would be interesting to see the Vikings forum in 2017 when Keenum was at the helm for their 13-3 season.

 

I’m curious how many of their fans had convinced themselves that he was a legit starter in the league.

 

He lit it up in college, went undrafted, bounced around a little bit and seemed to have all the stars align that season.  Only to come back to earth in a few different area codes since then.

 

 

That is the fear. Keenum was interesting and more so Foles. They had good years and couldn't do it again. One was replaced immediately and the new guy couldn't do better. The other just has looked like meh.

 

That's definitely a risk. There's the chance of Romo or Garcia or Brunell or a bunch of other guys that splashed and repeated it. But the thing that I was looking at was his ceiling. People are acting like arm strength is this cap on how good of a QB he can be. During the 3rd and 4tg quarters of the game I was calling for them to throw it more and put the game into Heinicke's hands. What did we go on the no TD drive to Thomas? We went for it on 4th down with a pass to Carter and it was beautiful. 

 

 

So he could definitely flame out but that doesn't mean his ceiling is Foles or Keenum. Heck his play style has been compared to Wilson. Some Seahawks fans say he reads defenses better than Wilson (I don't believe this argument but it's one that the Seattle fan on 106.7 was saying on Tuesday). 

 

And what I've been saying is that I hope he's doesn't get the Keenum or Banks or whoever else is treatment where he leads us to the playoffs and it's replaced by a shiny QB who was a first round pick. 

 

[Hooper]

Taylor H is slowly doing something that is darn near impossible in this day and age -- changing the narrative about him. 

 

Sometimes the only thing that's harder than playing well in the NFL is getting a sustained shot to do so  -- especially if you are an undrafted QB.

 

Yes, his lack of arm strength will limit him.  No one is denying that.

 

But he keeps making plays in the biggest moments. And his QB instincts are special -- dude just looks comfortable.

 

Playoffs or not, if he keeps playing at this level, this off-season would be the perfect time to extend him. Try to tack on a year or two at eight to 10 million a year.  He would have a hard time saying no and there's no risk for the team, no matter what this long-term future with the team ends up being. 

 

Also, as someone who lives in LA and adopted the Rams as my second favorite team, the Stafford thing... well it doesn't look too good right now.  He's the exact opposite of Taylor when it comes to big moments -- he shrinks.