Heinicke Hive: The LEGEND of Taylor Heinicke Thread

[skinsfan93]

13 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

Can people please stop assuming that anyone who has questions or concerns about Heinicke is not rooting for him?

 

As far as Warner...meh. I personally don't believe he should be in the HoF. He was a good QB but he wasn't elite. He only had 2 elite years in his career, and they were with what was probably the single most offensively stacked team in NFL history along with a (then) cutting edge offensive system. After that he only had 1 year where he was anything above decent. I think his HoF nod is more about his story (which is pretty amazing) than it is his play over his whole career.

Omg..first the hall of fame doesn’t select players based on a feel good story. Second he had a few pretty good years in Arizona and would have won the Superbowl if not for an amazing catch by Pittsburgh. 

[mistertim]

8 minutes ago, skinsfan93 said:

Omg..first the hall of fame doesn’t select players based on a feel good story. Second he had a few pretty good years in Arizona and would have won the Superbowl if not for an amazing catch by Pittsburgh. 

 

He had 1 very good year after his Greatest Show on Turf days (2008 SB season). Outside of that he was mostly average. He was a good QB, but his career was basically defined by 2 seasons where he was on the most offensively stacked team in NFL history.

 

I don't dislike him and I think he was a good quarterback, but in my personal opinion he didn't really play well enough over his career to be in the HoF.

[CTskin]

Theres no need to pay heinicke now, but this isn’t the time for naysayers to chime in. Through 3 1/2 games he has almost 1000 yards and a 105qbr. It’s a long season, he needs to prove not only that he can do this over the course of 17+ games, but also that he can stay healthy.

 

**** arm strength. when will this fanbase learn that it’s a terrible measurable.

[zCommander]

12 minutes ago, CTskin said:

Theres no need to pay heinicke now, but this isn’t the time for naysayers to chime in. Through 3 1/2 games he has almost 1000 yards and a 105qbr. It’s a long season, he needs to prove not only that he can do this over the course of 17+ games, but also that he can stay healthy.

 

**** arm strength. when will this fanbase learn that it’s a terrible measurable.

 

Totally agree with the arm thing. You can throw quick slants or 10-20 feet to get a 1st down. Getting 1st downs and moving the chains is all that matter. It keeps your offense on the field longer and eat up the clock. Brady has done exactly that all his life. Ball leaving his hands in less than 2 seconds. Moving the chains. That is all that matters anyway. 

 

 

Edited October 5, 2021 by zskins

[Morneblade]

16 minutes ago, CTskin said:

Theres no need to pay heinicke now, but this isn’t the time for naysayers to chime in. Through 3 1/2 games he has almost 1000 yards and a 105qbr. It’s a long season, he needs to prove not only that he can do this over the course of 17+ games, but also that he can stay healthy.

 

**** arm strength. when will this fanbase learn that it’s a terrible measurable.

 

It's not terrible, but it is over rated IMO. You absolutely DO need to have enough arm strength to make certain throws. After that, it's just for show. Taylor can make all the throws, BUT his margin for error is slim. He's late on a deep out, and it's going to be a pick 6, he can't gun it in there and expect anything other than that.

 

it just means you need to be smarter with the ball, and don't let your a** write a check your arm can't cash.

 

But I love what he is doing overall.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

20 minutes ago, CTskin said:

 

**** arm strength. when will this fanbase learn that it’s a terrible measurable.

Said no GM ever.

 

Just because Jamarcus Russell had a cannon and was among the biggest busts in NFL history doesn’t mean that arm strength is a terrible measure.

 

Arm strength is not the end all be all but it’s certainly a starting point.

[mistertim]

31 minutes ago, CTskin said:

Theres no need to pay heinicke now, but this isn’t the time for naysayers to chime in. Through 3 1/2 games he has almost 1000 yards and a 105qbr. It’s a long season, he needs to prove not only that he can do this over the course of 17+ games, but also that he can stay healthy.

 

**** arm strength. when will this fanbase learn that it’s a terrible measurable.

 

I think another thing that's going to be important for evaluation purposes is how Heinicke fares against better teams over the course of the season. He's played well in our wins, but the reality is those were against 2 teams that are bottom 5 in the entire NFL.

 

As far as arm strength I agree that it's a terrible measurable to use if that's all you're using when evaluating. But it's definitely part of the larger equation. It does matter for certain throws and fitting balls into tight windows. And if a defense knows that the opposing QB has a relatively weak arm, it's something they can use in their game plan.

 

@zskinsmentioned Brady, but I don't really think it compares. Yes, Brady has done plenty of short stuff over his career. But that's not so much about him not having the arm, but about the way he plays the game. He zeros in on the weakest part of a defense and exploits it over and over until they adjust, then he finds the weakness that the adjustment opened up and attacks that. But Brady actually has a pretty good arm. It's not on the Allen or Mahomes level, but I've seen him absolutely rip 20-30 yard outs into tight windows many times with no problem.

Edited October 5, 2021 by mistertim

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[CTskin]

3 minutes ago, Morneblade said:

 

it just means you need to be smarter with the ball, and don't let your a** write a check your arm can't cash.

 

But I love what he is doing overall.

Exactly. That has been my view as well since he impressed in the panthers game last year… and I then dove in way too deep. The guy can get thru 5 reads in 2.5 seconds and every former coach raved about his football IQ. He always seems to throw to the open wr; for a game or two I thought it was luck, but it certainly is not. 

Idk if anyone’s watching the chargers, but their defense is the real deal; would have loved to see what heinicke would have done if he had the whole game.
 

unrelated, but i really hope chase, del rio, and turner are watching the chargers in action. Between bosa and the coaching, this is a clinic.

[Skinsinparadise]

I'll double down Kirk Cousins arm strength was good from the jump not great but good.  One of the cool things about going to training camps is you can see the zip on the balls up close especially because they throw so many balls back to back and they do it back to back with other QBs so you can see apples to apples QB vs QB.

 

Years back, I recall the narrative pushed by the WP by Colt McCoy's people that he improved his arm strength from earlier in his career.  I watched him in camp and called that out as BS on the camp thread that year.  His balls still floated, not much zip.  Kirk looked like Josh Allen velocity wise when he threw back to back with Colt.

 

I don't think its easy to improve arm strength much.  i don't expect Heinicke to all of a sudden at 28-29 to transform on that front.  He has other attributes though that thus far make up for his lack of arm strength.  Heinicke himself is open about his lack of arm strength, I don't recall him yet at least saying that's about to change. 

 

 

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1150613-kirk-cousins-6-biggest-strengths-and-weaknesses-of-nfl-draft-prospects-game

 

 

Strength: Arm Strength

3 OF 6

While his decision making is a question mark, Cousins' arm strength is not. He has very good velocity and can spin the ball down the field.

He is able to make all the requisite throws at the next level, which is a positive because it gives the offense more flexibility in utilizing downfield concepts that stretch the defense horizontally and vertically.

Cousins is often able to fit the ball in tight windows even if the decision to throw it is a questionable one.

Edited October 5, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[CTskin]

25 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Said no GM ever.

 

Just because Jamarcus Russell had a cannon and was among the biggest busts in NFL history doesn’t mean that arm strength is a terrible measure.

 

Arm strength is not the end all be all but it’s certainly a starting point.

 

You may be missing my point. I’ll put it to u this way, would you rather have a smart qb with weak arm strength or a dumb qb with strong arm strength… hell, superhuman arm strength. 
 

I’ll backpedal a step, yes my qb needs to be able to make nfl passes. I’m not saying a genius will make up for my 32 yard bomb arm strength.

Edited October 5, 2021 by CTskin

[Burgundy Yoda]

Feels like the offense generally moves the ball well with Heinicke. He isn't some superstar QB, but the needle for me is moving in a positive direction with him. Definitely a starter, and if the team around him was any good (defense mostly), we could do some damage to teams. 

 

If the defense was worth ANYTHING we would be 3-1 right now. Heinicke is getting the job done at a higher level than we could have anticipated. 

Edited October 5, 2021 by Burgundy Yoda

[Morneblade]

If I'm looking for a QB, the first 2 things I look for are:

 

1. Can he read a defense quickly/accurately

2. Is he accurate with the ball.

 

After that, it's all downhill. I'll take Chad Pennington or Bernie Kosar over big armed guys like RGlll.

[zCommander]

23 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

@zskinsmentioned Brady, but I don't really think it compares. Yes, Brady has done plenty of short stuff over his career. But that's not so much about him not having the arm, but about the way he plays the game. He zeros in on the weakest part of a defense and exploits it over and over until they adjust, then he finds the weakness that the adjustment opened up and attacks that. But Brady actually has a pretty good arm. It's not on the Allen or Mahomes level, but I've seen him absolutely rip 20-30 yard outs into tight windows many times with no problem.

 

My point was not compare TH to Brady's arm strength or anyone else for that matter. The point was you can still achieve success with a weaker arm by just throwing accurately for 5-20 yards and keep the chains moving. Good thing is TH is also mobile that helps him with any lack of arm strength that he might be lacking. Sometime you gotta a play with the tools that you have and adjust accordingly. 

 

Edited October 5, 2021 by zskins

[Morneblade]

2 minutes ago, Burgundy Yoda said:

Feels like the offense generally moves the ball well with Heinicke. He isn't some superstar QB, but the needle for me is moving in a positive direction with him. 

 

If the defense was worth ANYTHING we would be 3-1 right now. Heinicke is getting the job done right now. 

 

Not only does he move the ball, he gets TD's, not FG's like we are used to having. We're scoring 44% of the time, and it's mostly TD's. That's right around the middle of the pack

 

Meanwhile, our D is dead last, giving up scores 57% of the time. Ugh.

[CTskin]

I’ve been so negative in the defense thread that I needed to come in here and drop some positivity.

 

all the raving aside, the Saints have a really good defense, so this will be a fair test for old Taylor… and you know they’re bitter for somehow letting that win slip away to the giants.

[Burgundy Yoda]

7 minutes ago, Morneblade said:

 

Not only does he move the ball, he gets TD's, not FG's like we are used to having. We're scoring 44% of the time, and it's mostly TD's. That's right around the middle of the pack

 

Meanwhile, our D is dead last, giving up scores 57% of the time. Ugh.

It's sucks, if this was a team that was spearheaded by a strong defense like we anticipated, imagine the excitement that would be around the team right now. Once again though, one side of the ball clicks while the other looks awful. Opposite of 2020 lol. 

Edited October 5, 2021 by Burgundy Yoda

[Morneblade]

1 minute ago, Burgundy Yoda said:

It's sucks, if this was a team that was spearheaded by a strong defense like we anticipated, imagine the excitement that would be around the team right now. 

 

I know. Going into the season it was like "The D will ball out, and if we get a little help from the offense, if Fitz is just 'OK', we've got a chance to do things."

 

Now, we're saying the complete opposite. Serious whiplash.

[ANONYMOUS SOURCE.]

P Manning  had mediocre arm strength and it became even worse a few years in, he  made up for it in smarts of course.  Taylor’s biggest downfall is size IMO, of course that was the knock on Brees also. Sean Peyton adjusted his offense so Brees could take drop backs much further than normal allowing a better view and angle over defenders and that seemed to work out lol. Durability and decision making are what mattters and we aren’t far enough in to know yet but I’m hoping for the best because I really like the kid. Plus unlike Cousins I think his teammates actually like Taylor 😂

[Morneblade]

22 minutes ago, ANONYMOUS SOURCE. said:

P Manning  had mediocre arm strength and it became even worse a few years in, he  made up for it in smarts of course.  Taylor’s biggest downfall is size IMO, of course that was the knock on Brees also. Sean Peyton adjusted his offense so Brees could take drop backs much further than normal allowing a better view and angle over defenders and that seemed to work out lol. Durability and decision making are what mattters and we aren’t far enough in to know yet but I’m hoping for the best because I really like the kid. Plus unlike Cousins I think his teammates actually like Taylor 😂

 

I don't know if Kirk was disliked here, I don't think he had the issues he seems to currently have with the Vikings.

 

I will say this though. I don't think anyone would have gone to war with Kirk. They would charge full speed into Hell for Heinicke.

[NoCalMike]

Just to once again reiterate that arm strength isn't always just a matter of how far can you throw to a wide open DeSean Jackson.  It's about the routes that you can utilize, it's about timing, it's about fitting the ball into tighter coverage and not need the target to be wide open by 5 yards in order to have the confidence to pull the trigger.  Go back to Week 1 and look at some of the throws Herbet was making to WRs that seemed to be covered pretty decently.  It didn't matter because he could zip the ball into the very limited areas where only the WR had a chance to make a play on the ball.  When you lack that "NFL arm strength" your throws are going to be playing in the danger zone a lot more.    The arm strength issue isn't about disliking Henicke it's about assessing his skillset and pros/cons.  

 

Throwing downfield is also not absent from this conversation though because when you lack the strength to really put the ball on a line, and instead have to wind up and heave it, you often give the defenders way more time to get into position to make a play.  The example of the McLaurin sideline pass downfield where he was wide open. The pass was lofted instead of zipped.  Now maybe he was just also late making that read which could have contributed to the pass being broken up, but look at how wide open Terry was as the ball is being thrown.

Edited October 5, 2021 by NoCalMike

[mistertim]

50 minutes ago, zskins said:

 

My point was not compare TH to Brady's arm strength or anyone else for that matter. The point was you can still achieve success with a weaker arm by just throwing accurately for 5-20 yards and keep the chains moving. Good thing is TH is also mobile that helps him with any lack of arm strength that he might be lacking. Sometime you gotta a play with the tools that you have and adjust accordingly. 

 

 

Yes you can still succeed in the NFL by going short. But having the threat of a big arm can be a major bonus. If a defense knows a QB doesn't have the arm to make certain throws, they'll be able to add that to their game plan and/or try and force him to make throws he would struggle with.

 

So with Brady, a defense may know he tends to go short, but they also know he absolutely has the arm to make them pay on longer stuff if that's what they leave open. The ability to make big throws with ease is something defenses have to respect when playing and game planning.

[tshile]

I don’t see the arm strength issue. 
 

like I get he doesn’t have a gun

 

i don’t see how that’s what would keep him from being a quality starter

 

reading and understanding defenses, ability to throw receivers open. That’s more important 

 

many passes are straight up touch passes. You don’t have to gun it 60% of the time. 
 

deep ball will always be iffy but he’s willing to throw it and that’s a net positive. It’ll work out often enough. 

Edited October 5, 2021 by tshile

[LetThePointsSoar]

2 hours ago, CTskin said:

 

**** arm strength. when will this fanbase learn that it’s a terrible measurable.

 

But....but have you SEEN the cannon that Jason Campbell had though?!? 

[NoCalMike]

15 minutes ago, tshile said:

I don’t see the arm strength issue. 
 

like I get he doesn’t have a gun

 

i don’t see how that’s what would keep him from being a quality starter

 

reading and understanding defenses, ability to throw receivers open. That’s more important 

 

many passes are straight up touch passes. You don’t have to gun it 60% of the time. 
 

deep ball will always be iffy but he’s willing to throw it and that’s a net positive. It’ll work out often enough. 

It matters because it will change how a defense has to cover different parts of the field.  They will cheat on coverage.  Now maybe a defense gets burned a few time during the course of the season because they cheat up too much and get worked over by a double move.  It happens, but you watch the NFL from week to week, and how many attempts are being made to connect downfield through the course of the game, and you ask yourself why that seems to be absent from this offense.  It isn't always about connecting on those passes, but it is the willingness to attempt them at a decent rate that forces the defense's hand and allows the offense to open up the entire field.  

 

It doesn't mean Heinicke can't be a quality starter and win some games, but I am looking at this topic more as a question of do you pass up on someone who can be potentially great, because Heinicke is somewhere in the above average range.  Yes, if you can build a beast around him, games will be won, but they still should absolutely go out and grab the "complete package" at QB if the opportunity presents itself.  I would have happily seen Heinicke walk or settle into a backup role had they been able to land Stafford, for example.  The circumstances for 2021 are going to allow Heinicke to grow & improve, without the fear of someone looking over his shoulder, and I am plenty fine seeing how he handles the every week starter role, but I also am not ready to pencil him in as the starting franchise QB for the next 3-4 seasons without someone behind him that physically can do things he can't.

Edited October 5, 2021 by NoCalMike