Rookie QB or Veteran QB for "Next Season"??? (I didn't bump this, but I ended up being wrong anyway....)

[RWJ]

2 minutes ago, CapsSkins said:

https://cms.megaphone.fm/channel/AMPM7263617903?selected=AMPM1164746757

 

^Listened to Keim's interview with Ron. He asks about Heinicke and Ron gave an interesting answer: yes there's the durability concern, but more than that, Ron said in both chances Heinicke has had, he's been "spectacular". However, those have been situations in which he had nothing to lose. Ron heavily emphasized the idea of, "how's a player going to perform when there are consequences?" He brings up DBs who may have six picks in training camp practice, but then zero in a preseason game. Because in a game, there are consequences, and they play different.

 

Ron was very open / adamant that Heinicke will get an opportunity (of course, had we gotten Stafford that wouldn't have really been the case for the starting job). It sounds like if Heinicke can continue his performance, and stay healthy, he could well be the starting QB next year.

 

Ron also relatively plainly stated he wouldn't have been willing to pay what the Rams did for Stafford. He doesn't see the roster as a QB away and thus doesn't seem too eager to pay through the nose for a guy.

 

I think we'll ask around on a bunch of guys, but won't go above our valuations. Depending on how camp goes, we could very well be looking at Heinicke starting week 1!

Durability is a HUGE concern, CS.  TH has to be able to put on at least 10-15 pounds of weight and some of it muscle.  He can't take the constant hits game in and game out.  In his one and only game he was almost knocked out of it.  I love TH!  If it weren't for his body frame I think we'd have our starting QB set but that's the BIG issue.  He can't w/stand 3 games at the most w/out being out of the lineup for weeks to months.  I all in on TH but that's the hard cold facts.  Truth, Smith is done and if RR keeps him on the team taking up space as a QB at his salary, that's just plain stupidity to me.  Allen's injury is more serious than people know. I've heard reports he's a LONG way away from being able to participate in practice, let alone games.

[CapsSkins]

5 minutes ago, RWJ said:

Durability is a HUGE concern, CS.  TH has to be able to put on at least 10-15 pounds of weight and some of it muscle.  He can't take the constant hits game in and game out.  In his one and only game he was almost knocked out of it.  I love TH!  If it weren't for his body frame I think we'd have our starting QB set but that's the BIG issue.  He can't w/stand 3 games at the most w/out being out of the lineup for weeks to months.  I all in on TH but that's the hard cold facts.  Truth, Smith is done and if RR keeps him on the team taking up space as a QB at his salary, that's just plain stupidity to me.  Allen's injury is more serious than people know. I've heard reports he's a LONG way away from being able to participate in practice, let alone games.

 

 

Yup, don't disagree my friend. I'm not a sports medicine guy or a bodybuilding / sports science guy. I know there are some on the board who have their opinions on whether Heinicke can add muscle and improve his durability. I am sure Ron has or will give him the message, so it's up to him. I am hoping he can stay healthy and keeps up his performance, because if can pan out, that would be an incredible find for the organization to have a youngish high-level guy at a cheap cap hit. Wouldn't that be something!

[RWJ]

2 minutes ago, CapsSkins said:

 

 

Yup, don't disagree my friend. I'm not a sports medicine guy or a bodybuilding / sports science guy. I know there are some on the board who have their opinions on whether Heinicke can add muscle and improve his durability. I am sure Ron has or will give him the message, so it's up to him. I am hoping he can stay healthy and keeps up his performance, because if can pan out, that would be an incredible find for the organization to have a youngish high-level guy at a cheap cap hit. Wouldn't that be something!

Totally agree.  ALL of us saw a man who has the "IT" factor when he played his first game for the WFT against the NFC Champs and almost beat them.  He's no one night wonder.  To me, he's the real deal. If only he can add that 10-15 pounds and stay healthy.  IF so, we found a rare diamond.  

[Est.1974]

6 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Listening to Standig's podcast now, he thinks they will make a serious move on QB this year, versus punt it to next year. 

Thanks for all the updates SIP. I agree re QB. Few key points from Rivera & Co. :

 

The DL is our core unit. RR said that unit is staying in tact. Expect a Jon Allen contract. We also aren’t trading one of those players away. He then said we just need to ‘fill in’ a few pieces around that. I’d expect a mid level of investment on defence this offseason.

 

On offense, got to protect the QB. Scherff is getting a deal. Then we need weapons, got to get that WR. All very affordable in FA.

 

On QB, the don’t mortgage the future talk, I see that as a reluctance to part with a future number one without serious consideration. That’s why the Stafford offer had a limit. However, I don’t think it take us out of the Watson race at all, as long as they can figure a way to do all of the above. He was also clear, trading a player isn’t something he is even entertaining the idea of.

 

I reckon Carr is the #1 target now. The sticking point will be that we don’t have any interest in using 2022 picks in any such move....well and the fact he may not actually be available yet.

 

Again, I still see Watson as an exception to that rule. However, there are several teams with the resource to blow us out of the water in the Watson sweepstakes.

[Est.1974]

8 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

But Ron could have gotten Cam for pretty cheap and without giving up draft picks. Instead, he gave up a 5th round pick for Kyle Allen. I think it's pretty clear that he's not interested in Cam.

Disagree with this, Rivera was committed to giving Haskins a chance, something that a move for Cam would have totally undermined. Also something he’ll regret, the Haskins part anyway. But back on Cam, I though it was also reported that Turner didn’t want him, so maybe a mix of both.

[Koolblue13]

We're not signing Cam.

 

We're not trading away our players

 

We're not going to mortgage our future.

 

That's all predictable and wonderful news.

[JamesMadisonSkins]

@Koolblue13 smart and surgical. 
 

Patience could pay off here.

[Skinsinparadise]

Rivera on Sheehan's show.  Doubling down on the same stuff.  They are looking at everything.   Having an answer for QB is his #1 priority.  

 

Sheehan asked him about Heinicke saying some fans think he's the guy:  his response is you want to be sure that's so, you want to explore though all options.

 

He said he can't get into what he's going to do at QB when he doesn't even know all his options. 

[goskins10]

1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Rivera on Sheehan's show.  Doubling down on the same stuff.  They are looking at everything.   Having an answer for QB is his #1 priority.  

 

Sheehan asked him about Heinicke saying some fans think he's the guy:  his response is you want to be sure that's so, you want to explore though all options.

 

He said he can't get into what he's going to do at QB when he doesn't even know all his options. 

 

This is exactly what a professional FO states at this time in the process. Good to hear such professionalism from our FO for once. It's been more than a decade and then only fleeting during Gibbs 2.0. 

 

Before some folks translate the bolded to they have no plan, that is just not true. They clearly have plans but they are remaining open to all options as those options may change which would in turn require adjustments to their plans. But to provide definitive plans to the public right now would be reckless in that it could hamper any potential negotiations and could change if the options change. 

 

So anyone taking his comments as they have no plan are doing so falsely and quite frankly just to complain. 

[Koolblue13]

47 minutes ago, JamesMadisonSkins said:

@Koolblue13 smart and surgical. 
 

Patience could pay off here.

If we just stay put and play our cards as dealt and draft Book or Jones or who knows and they pan out, we have a monster young roster without those contracts and Ron looks like a genius.

[actorguy1]

I am confident that Ron-Mart will approach each QB trade scenario (Veteran and Draft) with a consensus on how much they are comfortable offering that is both competitive but will not mortgage the future. If that offer is not enough they will move on to the next option.  At the end of it, if they are outbid, or the deal falls apart,, then it will be Allen, Hinecke and a second or third round rookie.

Edited February 4, 2021 by actorguy1

[Koolblue13]

5 minutes ago, actorguy1 said:

Ron-Mart

Damn it  

 

That's gonna stick around.

[Ashburn Dave]

8 hours ago, 86 Snyder said:

 

Agree completely that it wouldnt affect Rivera and the FO, but it does affect fan sentiment.  And theres a certain little dwarfy douche that IS persuaded by general buzz and fan opinion and has a tendency to get involved with decisions about the QB.

 

Actually thats 5D chess lol.  Its probably a reach but if Jay was the one to initiate with 106.7 then its suddenly very plausible.

 

 

He's already sneaking about it.....

 

 

[JamesMadisonSkins]

11 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

If we just stay put and play our cards as dealt and draft Book or Jones or who knows and they pan out, we have a monster young roster without those contracts and Ron looks like a genius.

Hitting on a rookie would be huge. Absolutely massive. Which is why I kind of wanted that #10 pick. Just better positioned. You don’t even need rookie to come in and be Justin Herbert. You could get Tua production and probably still be a .500 team. This comment is more about Fields or Wilson. Even Jones I guess since he’s old enough to step in right away. But your payoff really comes in 2022 and 2023 if that rookie makes leaps. Your team will still be stacked with talent. The defense will be dominant. Especially if you nail and continue to build through the draft. And that rookie contract will let you strategically pay all the young talent you currently have on rookie deals. 

[Skinsinparadise]

I'd add he got into what a franchise QB can do and elaborated on it.   Taking that interview and what was said yesterday.  Between that and Rivera saying QB is their #1 quest along with:

 

A.  FO guys saying yesterday they plan to be aggressive to go get a QB but won't give up the store

B.  Them offering a first and a third for Stafford.

C.  They arent chasing a guy just to chase a guy they want the right one

 

Feels like they won't chase Watson.  I wonder if Mayhew and Hurney changed that thought process because I noticed Finaly/Keim going from thinking they'd be all in on him to them seemingly backing off of that in segments recently or so it seemed to me because they didn't highlight it.  I could be reading too much into it but it registered with me that way. 

 

But i'd bet if they like Carr as some purport and he hits the market they will chase him hard.  If there is a dude in the draft they like, they'd chase them hard.  And clearly they are willing to give up their first and more if its in pursuit for the right guy.  But it sounds like they aren't going to go to town for a B minus type QB or just sign a guy to have someone.  It appears that they want to find "the guy" versus a dude that might just be at best a slight improvement of what they have in house.  Anyway that's my take from listening to it all.

 

The other part is they aren't going to tip their hand before they do it.  Hurney flat out said they won't and why.  And the other part is they don't know their targets before the targets even manifest.  It would be one thing if FA was loaded and you are just chosing from dudes you know will be on the market.   But the QB market looks to be somewhat uncertain and you got to play it Zen and deal with what comes as it comes. 

 

Edited February 4, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

10 hours ago, Rufus T Firefly said:

Even if I had some level of interest in Jay's opinion (I don't), he's going to speak like a guy who wants to coach- he's not going to be very critical of any current players. He's just going to basically say he likes everyone, because he doesn't want to close any doors.

 

Jay actually said he's not coaching this year and looking to do media. 

[Koolblue13]

6 minutes ago, JamesMadisonSkins said:

Hitting on a rookie would be huge. Absolutely massive. Which is why I kind of wanted that #10 pick. Just better positioned. You don’t even need rookie to come in and be Justin Herbert. You could get Tua production and probably still be a .500 team. This comment is more about Fields or Wilson. Even Jones I guess since he’s old enough to step in right away. But your payoff really comes in 2022 and 2023 if that rookie makes leaps. Your team will still be stacked with talent. The defense will be dominant. Especially if you nail and continue to build through the draft. And that rookie contract will let you strategically pay all the young talent you currently have on rookie deals. 

It's really the way to do it. Look at teams like the Chiefs and their journey. The Browns, the Bills, etc. 

 

The Chiefs model strangely is the best one for us IMO. They made a move for a QB that could run the offense and built the team being competitive for a few years and playing winning football. Then, when it was clear that they needed an upgrade at QB, they pulled the trigger and it was enough. 

 

The Cowboys the way they brought Dak up is a good model. Built Oline and run game. Vet QB run team, with two great pass catchers and a solid D, bring the young QB in and let him dink dunk and grow.

 

If we can get a rookie this year to groom, by 2023, you've got some of your captains like Chase locked up for the future, established players at key positions and a culture of winning in the locker room and on the field and nothing is too big for anyone.

 

We have been a very bad team for a very long time. It's not just going to change overnight because we've traded away assets and players for a great QB.

[KDawg]

1 hour ago, JamesMadisonSkins said:

@Koolblue13 smart and surgical. 
 

Patience could pay off here.

It’s almost like people have been saying this for months amongst the rush into doing something irrational.

18 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Damn it  

 

That's gonna stick around.

You’re welcome for that.

[Koolblue13]

1 minute ago, KDawg said:

It’s almost like people have been saying this for months amongst the rush into doing something irrational.

You’re welcome for that.

You did Ron-Mart? It's good. Very good.

[Skinsinparadise]

10 hours ago, RWJ said:

 You can't just have a Plan A (Stafford) and not a Plan B or Plan C.  Know what I mean?  

 

You can't really plan it out neatly though.   And even if you could why would you share with the world what that plan is considering it would give other teams a heads up in the pursuit of some of these targets plus it would give the trading teams some leverage.  

 

As some examples:

 

A.  Lets say they like the idea of trading up to #3 and get Justin Fields.  But you don't know if the Dolphins are willing to trade with you.  You don't know if they are willing or whether they'd accept your price.  You don't know if the Jets end up taking Fields a pick above so the pick instead turns to Zach Wilson.  Factors here are out of your control. 

 

B.  We want Derek Carr lets say.  We don't know if the Raiders trade him.  If Keim is right and Carr's trade is contingent on trading for Watson then we don't know if that happens or Carr becomes part of the package for Watson.  Or lets say Carr is just put on the trade market without strings -- are they insisting on two first rounders, can we outbid teams with higher picks like Carolina?  

 

I've said it even before yesterday's press conference which is I'd have a Zen approach to QB.  Everything is on the table and the answer is it depends.  Depends on who is available and what the price is.  I can't see a one size fits all approach to the QB spot.  There has to be a price for everything.  I loved Stafford and wanted him.   But I also said I am not trading two first rounders for him. 

 

You got a market and you got a price.  But both the market and price is out of their hands.  So they have to play each card as it comes.  It's clear they know which QBs they like.  but they aren't going to tell us that nor should they.  As for veterans they aren't allowed to say who they want, that would be tampering. 

[KDawg]

5 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

You did Ron-Mart? It's good. Very good.

I did sir. It was in the FO thread. I did it knowing it wouldn’t stick and it was terrible and now that it seems to be living on I am so happy

[Est.1974]

16 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Feels like they won't chase Watson.  I wonder if Mayhew and Hurney changed that thought process because I noticed Finaly/Keim going from thinking they'd be all in on him to them seemingly backing off of that in segments recently or so it seemed to me because they didn't highlight it.  I could be reading too much into it but it registered with me that way. 

Certainly seems like those two, plus Rivera, all emphasis the same message. 
 

I actually think the greater sticking point is players being traded out, in the case of acquiring Watson, not necessarily draft picks.

 

Also, I agree with the principle of not ‘mortgaging the future’. However, to counter that, is trading for a 25 years old franchise QB solely doing that. You could argue it is securing the long term future. That’s playing the long game. Now a 33 year old QB, different story.

[Skinsinparadise]

5 hours ago, UK SKINS FAN 74 said:

 

On QB, the don’t mortgage the future talk, I see that as a reluctance to part with a future number one without serious consideration. That’s why the Stafford offer had a limit. However, I don’t think it take us out of the Watson race at all, as long as they can figure a way to do all of the above. He was also clear, trading a player isn’t something he is even entertaining the idea of.

 

I reckon Carr is the #1 target now. The sticking point will be that we don’t have any interest in using 2022 picks in any such move....well and the fact he may not actually be available yet.

 

Again, I still see Watson as an exception to that rule. However, there are several teams with the resource to blow us out of the water in the Watson sweepstakes.

 

Digesting it all. The press conference yesterday and two additional Rivera appearances:   Finlay and Sheehan.

 

Watson is a hard one for me to figure it out but I'd lean no.  Rivera describing the power of a franchise QB on Sheehan this morning -- you can tell he's not in the get yourself a game manager and load him with weapons and win a SB camp.  He doesn't come off even a little in that camp.   It's clear as a bell to me he doesn't buy the Nick Foles SB theory for this team.  He thinks you need that guy.  

 

But he also wants to make sure he can support that guy.  So for Watson, if he can get him without giving up the moon, I'd expect him to be all in.  But I can't see getting Watson without giving up the moon.

 

On another note, I got to listen to it again but if i heard him right he touted the O line again.  if so that's the second time he's done it.   So for the few here who every now and then tout O line as our #1 need, i don't think Rivera is on the same page.

 

 

Edited February 4, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[JamesMadisonSkins]

The ONLY thing (other than the obvious being bust-factor) concern that I have with the draft-centric approach to a QB is that it might hinder your ability to bring in a top-flight WR.

 

Now, there's enough of these guys on the market that we'll certainly get an upgrade. But the difference between Carr and a rookie QB, is someone like ARob who has been in QB purgatory, would probably want to avoid going to a team without an established QB. Now, that could all change if he/they buy into the vision Ron and Co. set out. Not a huge deal, just something to consider.

 

A rookie QB approach could mean that we get Curtis Samuel for $10m/APY instead of ARob or Chris Godwin or Kenny Golladay for $17-20m. Which is probably okay in my mind too. I think if you take the rookie approach, you focus FA on getting that one WR, getting solutions on defense, and taking your remaining picks and focusing on offense.

 

If we have to trade #51 and a 2022 1st to move up for Fields, then I think you spend the 3/3/4/5 on offense.

 

You'll have an easier time getting your FA defenders into the mix because they'll want to play for JDR and behind that DL. No doubt about it.

 

While Curtis Samuel is an upgrade for sure, I think you'll need to hit the draft hard to keep getting weapons on offense to biuild around the rook.

[Skinsinparadise]

Also when Sheehan asked about emerging players:  he said:

 

James Smith-Williams

He thinks Gibson hasn't reached his potential yet

I believe he talked about Holcomb.  I missed the name but then heard him talk up the young LB so I assume that wasn't anyone else

He seemed to suggest if they add more to the offense McLaurin can get better still

also said Cam Sims