Rookie QB or Veteran QB for "Next Season"??? (I didn't bump this, but I ended up being wrong anyway....)

[Skinsinparadise]

on the Heinicke injury stuff.  All QBs take their share of hits.  Granted some more than others. 

 

So I am more worried about his frame's ability to withstand the physicality of the sport than I am his style of play though i am concerned with both.  My point is I am curious to see if that 15 pounds of muscle does the trick.  I got no clue one way or an another.  I've heard enough that i know the coaching staff has some concern.  I think the movie has to play out.  

 

Clearly, Heinicke himself is aware of the concern and to his credit he's not just shrugging it off.   Our previous young QB IMO (and judging by some comments he made today) came off delusional about what his issues were.  I like players chances of success much more when they work to address whatever has been holding them back versus shrugging it off to circumstance, etc.   Heinicke seems to fixate on getting better and seems to be self aware which are clearly good qualities to have if the goal is excellence. 

 

https://washingtonfootballwire.usatoday.com/2021/06/07/washington-football-team-quarterback-taylor-heinicke-adds-good-weight-this-offseason-to-stay-healthy-stoked-for-2021/

 

Taylor Heinicke bulks up this offseason to stay healthy, "stoked" for 2021

The injury led many of Heinicke’s critics to point out this is always what happens when he gets an opportunity; he gets hurt. So, Heinicke, who signed a two-year extension in February, was determined to add muscle mass this offseason to show coaches he can be Washington’s quarterback.

The former undrafted signal-caller out of Old Dominion worked hard this offseason, gaining 15 pounds of muscle after working with Dr. Joel Seedman, who owns Advanced Human Performance in Heinicke’s native Georgia.

Heinicke discussed his work this offseason when he met with the media last week, per Zach Selby of washingtonfootball.com.

“I feel like I did a pretty good job this offseason,” Heinicke said regarding his work to add bulk. “I just felt like every time I go out on that field, for some reason, something happens. So that was the biggest point of concern this offseason, and I felt like I kind of checked that box off.”

Heinicke certainly understands not all weight gains are positive ones; however, he is confident in the work he put in over the offseason, calling it “good weight.”

“Joel (Seedman) does a good job with that,” Heinicke said. “It is a very functional movement-type of deal. You see a lot of guys gain 15 pounds and kind of lose their throwing motion or have a slower throwing motion, and that is not the way he does things. He kind of strengthens around it, and you can still kind of do everything.”

 

https://www.13newsnow.com/article/sports/always-work-to-be-done-for-taylor-heinicke/291-12831494-4fe2-4bca-973c-d60e5596bc0f

Heinicke is still in a position of having to prove himself. He understands one of the issues is being injury prone. He took it upon himself to get bigger and stronger this off season. He put on 15 pounds. He describes it as good weight, "Eating super healthy and just hitting the gym a lot. I just felt like every time I go out on that field for some reason, something happens. That was the biggest point of concern this off season so I feel like I checked that box off."

At the same time, Heinicke feels like he has retained his mobility, "It wasn't like I was just lifting heavy weight and not running as well. I was doing a lot of agility stuff, a lot of footwork stuff. I didn't want to lose that aspect of my game because I know it's a big part of it."

 

 

 

Edited June 17, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Voice_of_Reason]

5 hours ago, mistertim said:

So yeah, I don't think "any QB today with the skill set that could make that play would do the same thing." I think most top QBs with the skill set would have made the play with their legs and gotten out of bounds and then worked on punching it in with 1st and goal at the 4.

You say this, however if you don't make it in from the 4, then there are going to be questions as to why the QB didn't dive for it.

 

Granted, it's a different position, so maybe more is expected from WRs, but I think it was the GB playoff game in 2015 when DJax could have gotten into the endzone if he had dove for it, chose to step out of bounds, and we ended up kicking a figgie.  If I'm remembering the right game (no guarantee on that) it basically let Aaron Rodgers hang around closer a little longer which eventually led to disaster.  

 

Granted, there probably are different rules for WRs vs. QBs, and I get that, but just playing devil's advocate, I'm pretty sure that if he hadn't sold out, and they hadn't punched it in (which is definitely was possible) then there would have been questions, I think.  

57 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

C.  He's spoken to Heinicke in the off season.  Heinicke loves Fitzpatrick.  He thinks Fitzpatrick is a great guy who has already taught him some useful things.

I wonder if Taylor is going to grow a powerful beard?

[mistertim]

43 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

You say this, however if you don't make it in from the 4, then there are going to be questions as to why the QB didn't dive for it.

 

Granted, it's a different position, so maybe more is expected from WRs, but I think it was the GB playoff game in 2015 when DJax could have gotten into the endzone if he had dove for it, chose to step out of bounds, and we ended up kicking a figgie.  If I'm remembering the right game (no guarantee on that) it basically let Aaron Rodgers hang around closer a little longer which eventually led to disaster.  

 

Granted, there probably are different rules for WRs vs. QBs, and I get that, but just playing devil's advocate, I'm pretty sure that if he hadn't sold out, and they hadn't punched it in (which is definitely was possible) then there would have been questions, I think.  

 

 

Honestly, I can't really imagine faulting a QB for picking up a 1st and goal with his legs but going out of bounds before he gets creamed by some defensive players. If a team can't punch it in from 1st and goal at the 4 then to me that's its own separate issue of the offense not being effective and has no direct relationship with the QB choosing to not dive for the end zone and risk injury.

 

The only time I'd say "That QB should have dove for the pylon and the TD instead of going out of bounds" is if there was 10 seconds or less in the game and that would have been for the tie or go-ahead score.

 

And yes, RB and WR are completely different animals than QB. If one of your WRs gets hurt and has to exit the game or gets hurt and has to miss time in the future, it's usually not nearly as impactful as losing your QB. If you're in the playoffs and lose your QB you're likely pretty much ****ed for the most part.

[tmandoug1]

12 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

I think that's only the case if you don't really have a franchise QB and don't really mind one way or the other if you lose the guy you have. Which is almost never the case.

 

You're in a playoff game. It's the 3rd quarter and the game is pretty close. You're on the opposing team's 9 yard line and it's 3rd and 5. Your franchise QB takes the snap and has some green grass ahead of him. What would you rather him do:

 

1. Take off and get to the 4 for a 1st down and get out of bounds. You then have 1st and goal at the 4 with tons of time remaining in a close game. Your QB is healthy.

 

2. Take off and try to be superman. Dive for the pylon where he could quite possibly injure himself and end up unable to play the rest of the game or any games after that which pretty much dooms your chances in the playoffs.

 

To me this is a no-brainer. And I think to most coaches it would be too.

Yep, right up until we don't score on said drive and everyone says he should have made the pylon.......see how easy it is🤣🤣🤣

[mistertim]

10 hours ago, tmandoug1 said:

Yep, right up until we don't score on said drive and everyone says he should have made the pylon.......see how easy it is🤣🤣🤣

 

As I've noted in some other responses, if you have a 1st and goal on the 4 yard line and can't score, you have bigger problems than your QB not diving. 

 

Again, I doubt any HC or OC in the NFL would want their QB to risk his health (and hence the success of the team) with 20 minutes left in a close game when he could have gone out inside the 5 for a 1st and goal, and stayed healthy. 

 

To flip it around, what if your QB dives, injures himself and didn't even make it into the end zone while doing so? That's a far worse outcome than having a 1st and goal at the 4 and not being able to punch it in. You lost your QB for absolutely nothing.

Edited June 18, 2021 by mistertim

[tmandoug1]

10 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

As I've noted in some other responses, if you have a 1st and goal on the 4 yard line and can't score, you have bigger problems than your QB not diving. 

 

Again, I doubt any HC or OC in the NFL would want their QB to risk his health (and hence the success of the team) with 20 minutes left in a close game when he could have gone out inside the 5 for a 1st and goal, and stayed healthy. 

 

To flip it around, what if your QB dives, injures himself and didn't even make it into the end zone while doing so? That's a far worse outcome than having a 1st and goal at the 4 and not being able to punch it in. You lost your QB for absolutely nothing.

Agreed.

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

 

SHBURN, Va. -- The Washington Football Team starting quarterback job belongs to Ryan Fitzpatrick. That's how the spring ended and it's how training camp will begin next month. The question, though, will be simple: For how long?

Fitzpatrick's career, Washington coach Ron Rivera's history and Taylor Heinicke's ascension make it clear: Anything can still happen. Rivera said the competition won't be in name only.

"Taylor pushed him, yes," Rivera said of the spring workouts.

After mandatory minicamp ended last week, Rivera said there would be a competition this summer -- unlike last year when Dwayne Haskins took all the reps. After four starts, and 11 weeks with Haskins taking all the first-team snaps, Rivera benched Haskins. Rivera said in hindsight, he would have held a competition but he wanted to get Haskins ready in light of no preseason games.

Rivera told reporters last week he had learned a lesson, and that's why this summer, the coach likely will have Heinicke take snaps with the starters, although it's uncertain how much he and Fitzpatrick will rotate. That, more than anything, will reveal the true depths of Washington's quarterback competition.

"We want everybody pushed," Rivera said. "This phrase will be very important when I get together with the team: Now what?"

[Skinsinparadise]

So was Stafford “Plan A?”

Stafford and Ryan and a couple of those other guys I can’t name because it’s tampering. As you remember, the Stafford [trade from the Lions to the Rams] went very quickly. So we had to finish the rest of our discussions in terms of do we want to go really young, young, or do we continue to look for that veteran guy?

 

Was it preferable to get a veteran?

Yes, because of what it potentially would have cost us [to trade up in the draft]. To do the things that we want to do, we’ve got to hit on draft picks right now because that helps keep your salary cap in control.

 

Going into the draft, were you still eyeing a quarterback if the price was right, or had your focus shifted to other positions?

I think for right now, the focus has shifted to shoring up the rest of the positions. Again, there’s nothing that says Ryan Fitzpatrick can’t be the guy for a while. If this dude continues to play at the level he has and with Brady showing everybody that these veteran guys can do it — just ask Phil Mickelson, he’ll tell you — then why not? Why would we want to move on?

At the same time, we have a guy we have confidence in Taylor [Heinicke], we have confidence in Kyle [Allen], and we got a very young player in Steven Montez. So we’re kind of in an interesting position right now.

 

 

What is your hope at quarterback? Do you believe you can go as far as you want to go with this setup, cycling through short-term veterans? Or are you still hopeful of getting a younger QB for the long term?

I think we’re in a good spot. Like I said, there’s nothing that says right now that, if things go well with Ryan, why wouldn’t we want to bring that guy back? Or if Taylor ends up being the guy, why wouldn’t we want that guy to be the guy for a while?

Do we want a quarterback of the future? Yeah. Oh, absolutely. And ideally, it’d be a guy that could sit back and watch and you could be patient with him.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2021/06/18/ron-rivera-washington-offseason-decisions/

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[RWJ]

TH's growth is so unknown.  His potential can pass Fitz but as of now he (Fitz) was brought in as the starter.  Keep your eyes on this young man, Taylor!    

Edited June 18, 2021 by RWJ

[tmandoug1]

Ryan Fitzpatrick has played 165 games and thrown 169 picks......next?

[RWJ]

27 minutes ago, tmandoug1 said:

Ryan Fitzpatrick has played 165 games and thrown 169 picks......next?

Hoping Fitz does well but like I posted above you. We all need to keep our eyes on Taylor.  This young man I think is gonna make a name for himself starting this year. 

[mistertim]

10 hours ago, RWJ said:

Hoping Fitz does well but like I posted above you. We all need to keep our eyes on Taylor.  This young man I think is gonna make a name for himself starting this year. 

 

Seeing TH is certainly possible, but I still think Fitz would have to really be bad and for multiple games in a row before he'd be pulled. There's no way that Rivera has any illusions about Fitz. He knows who he is and that he's going to put it up there to try and make plays, and that is going to inevitably lead to some interceptions. So I doubt the occasional bad game with picks would be enough to pull him. He'd have to be consistently bad over a period of time IMO.

[Skinsinparadise]

 

Catching up with some podcasts this morning.  The strong vibe I get from some who cover the team that its Fitzpatrick's job to lose.  He'd have to play poorly to lose it.

 

As for people judging Fitz by the sum of his career as if 2013 is the same as 2019 and by extension Zampese, Rivera among others are buying a false narrative that Fitzpatrick is playing his best ball now -- then yeah I'd be betting on disappointment, too.   But personally, I am betting on the stats and betting on Zampese and Rivera among others and my own eyes that the dude is a better QB now then years ago.   Will see. 

 

Yeah I get its weird to say an older dude has gotten better as he aged.  So I don't got issues with those who say its nonsense.  I don't think its as weird if you listen to Fitzpatrick's explanation for why he's playing his best ball now.   But like I said to have that belief that he's the same guy he always was also means that you don't so much trust Zampese and Rivera and the WFT FO because they clearly buy that narrative that he's better now.  And heck Zampese and company could end up wrong.  Will see.  Obviously, we want to hope that they are right.

 

As for Heinicke, I think it should be a real interesting camp-preseason.  I rewatched his last drive last night in the preseason when he was with Minny.  It was wild how similar it was to the home stretch of the Tampa game.  You can see him grimacing in pain, the broadcasters talked about it, but he perservered through it.  He certainly has some gamer in him.  Hopefully the 15 pounds and some better luck helps his health moving forward.  I am definitely intrigued.

Edited June 19, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Fresh8686]

I’ve been watching some of the shows talking about Fitzpatrick in relation to winning out in the NFC East. One thing they are being myopic on IMO, is they are focusing just on Fitz rather than the QB room as a whole. It’s too bad Volsmet had such trouble following social rules and sticking around here because we have the closest setup to his vaunted 2 qb cycling system. 
 

If Fitz has a 5 game stretch of brilliance followed a crash we put in Heinecke who can win till he gets hurt. Once he gets hurt we put in Fitz again till he crashes. By that time Heinecke is ready again or Kyle Allen becomes a game or two bridge till he’s healed. 
 

I love the build and synergy of our QB room as a whole and why I feel that eats into the reasoning behind why Dallas should be ranked ahead of us specifically with QB. 
 

Fitz and Henicke both have manifested moments of high ceiling play. Problem is that manifestation is volatile. However, each of  their volatility’s are different - decision making vs durability, but complimentary like I talked about previously. 

[Est.1974]

Heinicke is one of the most over hyped players I have known in recent times for us. 
 

Fitz is the QB and it’s not even close.

[ODU AGGIE]

3 hours ago, UK SKINS FAN 74 said:

Heinicke is one of the most over hyped players I have known in recent times for us. 
 

Fitz is the QB and it’s not even close.

Hide and watch.

[tmandoug1]

5 hours ago, UK SKINS FAN 74 said:

Heinicke is one of the most over hyped players I have known in recent times for us. 
 

Fitz is the QB and it’s not even close.

Careful....

[redskinss]

It's kind of funny how heinicke doesn't get the benefit of the doubt because of sample size and Fitzpatrick gets the benefit of the doubt despite it.

[mistertim]

6 hours ago, redskinss said:

It's kind of funny how heinicke doesn't get the benefit of the doubt because of sample size and Fitzpatrick gets the benefit of the doubt despite it.

 

I think it has less to do with looking at Fitz's whole career and more with how he's been playing the last couple of years. IIRC Rivera and Turner both remarked on how he's looked recently, not so much earlier in his career. If Fitz hadn't elevated his game the last couple of seasons I doubt they would have been as interested in him.

 

As far as Heinicke, whether it's fair or not an undrafted guy who's been on 5 teams in 6 seasons and only started 2 games isn't going to get a ton of the benefit of the doubt when it comes to his sample size. Rivera basically said the exact same thing even after TH looked good vs TB.

[tmandoug1]

8 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

I think it has less to do with looking at Fitz's whole career and more with how he's been playing the last couple of years. IIRC Rivera and Turner both remarked on how he's looked recently, not so much earlier in his career. If Fitz hadn't elevated his game the last couple of seasons I doubt they would have been as interested in him.

 

As far as Heinicke, whether it's fair or not an undrafted guy who's been on 5 teams in 6 seasons and only started 2 games isn't going to get a ton of the benefit of the doubt when it comes to his sample size. Rivera basically said the exact same thing even after TH looked good vs TB.

Then why didn't Miami re sign him? Why did Miami pull him mid season..and put in a rookie? Elevated his game to what? Threw 4 million interceptions in his career but we love him because he is the cool guy making everyone laugh. SAMPLE SIZE is why Fitz will fail.

[Warhead36]

2 minutes ago, tmandoug1 said:

Then why didn't Miami re sign him? Why did Miami pull him mid season..and put in a rookie? Elevated his game to what? Threw 4 million interceptions in his career but we love him because he is the cool guy making everyone laugh. SAMPLE SIZE is why Fitz will fail.

Miami didn't resign him because they're committing to a guy they just drafted with a top 5 pick last season. Pulling him mid season was the plan all along to get Tua in, but Fitz was the better player, and late in the season he was coming in for Tua when they needed scoring drives. Fitz's #s have actually been okay the last couple years. I'm not saying he's Pat Mahomes but he's a SIGNIFICANT upgrade over what we've had since Cousins 2015-2017.

[Est.1974]

4 hours ago, tmandoug1 said:

Then why didn't Miami re sign him? Why did Miami pull him mid season..and put in a rookie? Elevated his game to what? Threw 4 million interceptions in his career but we love him because he is the cool guy making everyone laugh. SAMPLE SIZE is why Fitz will fail.

Also, it was noted that Miami saved up to a maximum of 5mil in playing time/bonus incentives by benching Fitz. 

[mistertim]

7 hours ago, tmandoug1 said:

Then why didn't Miami re sign him? Why did Miami pull him mid season..and put in a rookie? Elevated his game to what? Threw 4 million interceptions in his career but we love him because he is the cool guy making everyone laugh. SAMPLE SIZE is why Fitz will fail.

 

As @Warhead36said, because they'd just spent a top 5 pick on a QB and wanted to get him in there, but since Fitz was better they started with him and let Tua learn at first.

 

As fa as elevating his game, he's had QBRs of 68.3 and 76.9 over the last couple of seasons which is very good. He's looked more accurate. I'm not the only one who's remarked on it.

 

I don't think anyone is confusing him with Tom Brady or Aaron Rodgers, but the team clearly thought he was the best option since they said he was their top FA target. After not being able to trade for Stafford he was the guy River and company wanted. They've said as much.

 

As far as his personality, it seems he's already developed a lot of rapport with his teammates and they do really like him, and that matters. Whether we think he's cool or funny isn't really as important.

 

But you already seem convinced that he'll fail, so I guess there's probably not all that much of a pointing debating a lot with you on it.