2021 Comprehensive Draft Thread

[86 Snyder]

17 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

Haskins was set up to fail here and he failed.  He didn't handle adversity well, but good teams also don't force their QB prospects into dealing with constant adversity.  That's the truth and it's a common outcome for first round QBs in the NFL.  That doesn't mean these kids aren't good prospects.  It takes luck and quite a bit of help from your team to grow into a franchise QB in the NFL, and as sort of a basic requirement for successful development, you need a coaching staff that's in your corner.

 

He was overdrafted.  Just eat the L, you'll feel better lol.

[Going Commando]

3 minutes ago, 86 Snyder said:

 

He was overdrafted.  Just eat the L, you'll feel better lol.

 

Eh, I'm tired of litigating over his potential and the failures of him and the team.  Nobody is changing their minds at this point, and I recognize that the fanbase wants to move on from the failure and write it off as a totally unique circumstance in order to enthusiastically buy into the new regime.  But I am willing to bet I'm one of the only ones here who actually watched almost all of his games in 2018 and made an evaluation of him well before he was ever a Redskin.  Same **** happened to him that happened to Rosen and Darnold, and then fans will say in hindsight that they were overdrafted busts and the absolute incompetence of the organization kind of fades off into the distance because the fans have a continuing interest in hoping their teams get it right next season.

[86 Snyder]

6 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

Eh, I'm tired of litigating over his potential and the failures of him and the team.  Nobody is changing their minds at this point, and I recognize that the fanbase wants to move on from the failure and write it off as a totally unique circumstance in order to enthusiastically buy into the new regime.  But I am willing to bet I'm one of the only ones here who actually watched almost all of his games in 2018 and made an evaluation of him well before he was ever a Redskin.  Same **** happened to him that happened to Rosen and Darnold, and then fans will say in hindsight that they were overdrafted busts and the absolute incompetence of the organization kind of fades off into the distance because the fans have a continuing interest in hoping their teams get it right next season.

 

I'll give you Darnold, hes shown enough flashes that you can make the case he could have succeeded in a solid organization that set him up for success.

 

Rosen sucked too.

 

At some point you have to put responsibility on the player.  I dont doubt your eval predates his Skins affiliation at all.  I think your loyalty to your eval is preventing you from seeing his pro career clearly.  Same with Rosen.  They both outright sucked.

[KDawg]

Anytime a guy can throw the ball all over the field accurately you have to take a look at him and find the context of his success. 
 

Mac Jones can clearly move a team down the field. He has a pocket presence and throws a nice ball down the field. 
 

I think he’s a touch jittery with his feet but he is very aware. 
 

He also has a guard that hasn’t allowed a sack in his entire collegiate playing career. He has first round offensive linemen. He has a top 5 talent back and a top 5 talent receiver. 
 

Now, is any part of the reason he has so much talent around him due to his play? Probably not a lot. Tua, Hurts, etc., had similar talent groups. It’s a Bama thing.

 

One thing that stands out to me about Mac is his lack of presence at the podium. But that’s not damning. If he is likable enough in the locker room that becomes a running “laugh with me” thing and not an “at me” thing. If he goes into a locker room and doesn’t play well and is generally not accepted that kind of thing hurts him.

 

Whether it should or shouldn’t is up for debate. But it can. 
 

Sark schemed that offense to perfection.

 

Mac Jones, in my estimation, is a fringe guy. He has to get serious about strength and conditioning and he has to be patient. 
 

I put him outside the top group. He’s in the group with Shane Buechele, Jamie Newman types where there are questions but there’s some juice. 
 

Bottom line is that he’s done enough and played well enough that he’ll get a shot to prove his worth in the NFL.

 

I think it would be a mistake to use a 1 on him even IF he pans out. But the reality in the NFL is that these fringe guys get picked in the first due to the 5 year contract with the rookie deal. 
 

Fields post game interview talked about being motivated and getting back to work in the offseason to get better as a team.

 

I wonder if that means he’s staying or if he’s just talking the talk after a tough loss.

 

If he stays that throws the draft in a different direction for sure.

[RichmondRedskin88]

6 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

Haskins was set up to fail here and he failed.  He didn't handle adversity well, but good teams also don't force their QB prospects into dealing with constant adversity.  That's the truth and it's a common outcome for first round QBs in the NFL.  That doesn't mean these kids aren't good prospects.  It takes luck and quite a bit of help from your team to grow into a franchise QB in the NFL, and as sort of a basic requirement for successful development, you need a coaching staff that's in your corner.

With all due respect after you blamed his failures on race it was kind of hard to take you serious.  If any QB acted like Haskins they would have been cut early on.  He was lucky he made it as long as he did with his on and off the field antics. I don’t know how many chances you think NFL players should get in but he got more than most would because we needed a QB.  And he failed.  And failed. And failed.   And failed.  And that’s NOT what the guy does.  The guy steps up.  The guy does his home work which what he should have done before he dragged his arrogant butt into the locker room each game. The guy owns up and works harder.  Haskins was not the guy. 

[DWinzit]

6 hours ago, 86 Snyder said:

 

He was overdrafted.  Just eat the L, you'll feel better lol.

I totally agree, no one wanted him at 15 for a reason. I hated the pick but knew we needed a young talent so I hoped he could mature into a decent player and leader. He did the opposite.

[Skinsinparadise]

8 hours ago, KDawg said:

I like Jones. But I’m not as sold as some of you. He’s a solid option after the first crop is gone, though. I just don’t see him as part of that first group. 
 

Also, Barmore is making some cash tonight.

 

I am in the same place about Jones.   I disagree with those who say Trask is better.    Trask IMO doesn't have much pocket prescense, has slow feet, doesn't throw that hot on the move, folds under pressure.  Jones while not that mobile he is distinctly more mobile than Trask.  He isn't fast but has somewhat quick feet, he can throw on the move, too.   His accuracy IMO is fine.  He also has more arm strength than Trask.  Granted Trask isn't the highest bar.  

 

What I like the most about Jones is he's good with his eyes and body movement to manipulate safeties, he can sell play action.  He also supposedly has high intangibles.  

 

Why I am far from in love with him is because he IMO not really special on any one front.  He doesn't have a rifle.  He isn't mobile.  His ball placement is good but not special IMO.    Maybe in the NFL he ends up a Andy Dalton type?    If I am rolling the dice on the 2nd tier type QBs, he'd be my top choice, followed by Jamie Newman.    He's a hard evaluation because he has so much working for him.  Great O line.  Great receivers.  Great running game.  Like Trask, he relies often on wide open receivers, contested catches, great protection. 

 

But the main reason why I take him over Trask is his pocket movement is better and in turn he doesn't fold like a house of cards to the extent that Trask does when he's harrassed in the pocket.  And those skills become more paramount in the NFL versus college. 

[KDawg]

1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I am in the same place about Jones.   I disagree with those who say Trask is better.    Trask IMO doesn't have much pocket prescense, has slow feet, doesn't throw that hot on the move, folds under pressure.  Jones while not that mobile he is distinctly more mobile than Trask.  He isn't fast but has somewhat quick feet, he can throw on the move, too.   His accuracy IMO is fine.  He also has more arm strength than Trask.  Granted Trask isn't the highest bar.  

 

What I like the most about Jones is he's good with his eyes and body movement to manipulate safeties, he can sell play action.  He also supposedly has high intangibles.  

 

Why I am far from in love with him is because he IMO not really special on any one front.  He doesn't have a rifle.  He isn't mobile.  His ball placement is good but not special IMO.    Maybe in the NFL he ends up a Andy Dalton type?    If I am rolling the dice on the 2nd tier type QBs, he'd be my top choice, followed by Jamie Newman.    He's a hard evaluation because he has so much working for him.  Great O line.  Great receivers.  Great running game.  Like Trask, he relies often on wide open receivers, contested catches, great protection. 

 

But the main reason why I take him over Trask is his pocket movement is better and in turn he doesn't fold like a house of cards to the extent that Trask does when he's harrassed in the pocket.

I don’t see NFL potential in Trask at all. His ceiling appears to be as a backup. And that may be pushing it.

[Skinsinparadise]

44 minutes ago, KDawg said:

I don’t see NFL potential in Trask at all. His ceiling appears to be as a backup. And that may be pushing it.

 

Agree.  

 

7 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

Eh, I'm tired of litigating over his potential and the failures of him and the team.  Nobody is changing their minds at this point, and I recognize that the fanbase wants to move on from the failure and write it off as a totally unique circumstance in order to enthusiastically buy into the new regime.  But I am willing to bet I'm one of the only ones here who actually watched almost all of his games in 2018 and made an evaluation of him well before he was ever a Redskin.  Same **** happened to him that happened to Rosen and Darnold, and then fans will say in hindsight that they were overdrafted busts and the absolute incompetence of the organization kind of fades off into the distance because the fans have a continuing interest in hoping their teams get it right next season.

 

The Rosen comment surprises me.  I recall you trashing Rosen some on this thread when he was brought up as a trade possibilty.   Its hard for me to forget that because we both agreed at the time and we double teamed a person on this thread at the time pushing him.   

 

I mean this all in good spirits.  But in short we all get some wrong.  I was a zealot for Derrius Guice.   I liked Doctson.  And I've gotten some good ones right.  Parcells likes to say if the professionals get even 50% right they are at the top of their game.   So getting it wrong about players comes with the turf.  We don't know who these people are personally.  I vouched for Guice and Doctson's personality at different times early on but in retrospect that was foolish.  I don't know them as people.   

 

The same apples to Haskins.  I actually met him a couple of times, he seems like a nice guy.  But when I hear a zillion different times from sources back to Ohio State that he doesn't work hard, at some point I believe it.  There is really no ambiguity on the subject.  It's not contested.  Haskins himself somewhat acceded to it by saying he's working harder now, trying to do it the right way.  He was super close from what I read with Doug.  And even Doug suggested it was a problem.  So not sure how much more evidence we need?  It's not the team's fault that Haskins doesn't seem to have the drive needed to succeed.  It's on him.  Not the coaches.   And that's before even delving into his ability. 

 

As for Haskins, I watched most of his college games.  I actually bought into him initially predraft based on the hype at the time.  But our old friend, volsmet, begged me to watch him and not to just reflexively buy into what Riddick was saying about him.  So I finally did one Saturday morning.    And I didn't like what I saw which I don't feel like repeating.  I recall giving a long post about it on this thread back then.  Volsemt and I actively rooted for us not to take him on draft thread hoping someone else took him before he hit 15.  I watched him throw a zillion balls in camp that summer.  In camp, they test accuracy in various ways and after that I became even more confident that the dude has accuracy issues. 

 

It's not like Haskins didn't have critics.  Hearing the account of how violently Kyle Smith was opposed to the pick (according to some based on both ability and intangibles) coupled with every beat guy saying both Kyle and the WFT scouts didn't think highly of Haskins.  Cooley who isn't perfect at evaluations but has nailed a lot of them including that TJ Watt will be a stud, Josh Allen was the best QB from that draft class among other things -- thought so poorly of him that he texted people he knew at WFT park not to take him.  Joe Banner said his sources told him many teams graded him as a third rounder.  Lance Zierlien who I know you like from other posts you've made said back then he's hearing that NFL scouts don't agree with the NFL mock types about Haskins.  Matt Miller also said his sources with NFL teams weren't high on Haskins.

 

I get from some of your other posts that you see this as sort of RG3 part 2.  I was very friendly with Darrell Greenie in part because we agreed that Shanny misplayed that whole thing.  I was irate about RG3, too in real time back then.  But Haskins to me is apples to oranges on that front.  I've noticed even his three media type zealot supporters:  Riddick, Orlovsky, B. Brooks have backed off the Haskins love.     You got some killer posts on this thread, love hearing your takes.  But on the Haskins stuff, you seem stubborn no matter what evidence is presented.   

 

Like I've said before with anyone here, its never personal with me when it comes to prospects.  We are going to get some right and some wrong.   And maybe Haskins will soar at his next job.  I got no idea.  But there is one thing I am confident about Haskins and that is the dude doesn't have the work ethic (at least not yet) to be anything special.   And the work ethic issues isn't a character flaw on his end.  I just suspect he doesn't love the game. 

[Going Commando]

1 hour ago, KDawg said:

Fields post game interview talked about being motivated and getting back to work in the offseason to get better as a team.

 

If he stays, then Ohio State becomes the favorite to win it all in 2021 IMO.  Especially if Olave stays too.  That team would have an "unfinished business" feel to it and be absolutely loaded, and motivated by this loss.

 

This was a war of attrition season and Alabama coasted through it because they are the most professional and focused program in the country.  The instability, the daily Covid testing, the isolation and lack of fans.  It ground down most of the kids in the sport.  I can never remember teams declining bowl invitations before and it was commonplace this season.  Tons of guys just saying screw this and quitting mid year in order to get out of that grind and get ready for the draft.  This season was quite a bit to ask of kids who aren't getting paid for it, so many of them were basically just broken down by the finish line.  Bama smashed their way through it because their locker room was single minded and looking for revenge.

 

I actually think staying in school could be a smart move for Fields. Right now, I think he's QB 3.  A first rounder, but not necessarily a top ten talent.  If he goes back and shows growth and mastery next year, then I think he could win the Heisman, a championship, and go #1 overall.  It could be the most fun season of football he'll ever have.   But I certainly wouldn't fault him for making the jump now.  When you're getting a first round projection, you almost have to answer that call.  The money is just too good and it might never be there again.

[RichmondRedskin88]

Fields later said he will miss the guys.  I think he was just talking honestly.  Pretty sure he’s gone. 

[KDawg]

2 minutes ago, RichmondRedskin88 said:

Fields later said he will miss the guys.  I think he was just talking honestly.  Pretty sure he’s gone. 

Lots of mixed messages in that presser. I think he’d be smart to stay but it’s a giant risk and he is QB1 or 2 at worst in my eyes.

[Skinsinparadise]

Just now, KDawg said:

Lots of mixed messages in that presser. I think he’d be smart to stay but it’s a giant risk and he is QB1 or 2 at worst in my eyes.

 

I think he'd drop to #4 (trade up perhaps) at the latest.   I'd expect him to come out.

[Going Commando]

14 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

The Rosen comment surprises me.  I recall you trashing Rosen some on this thread when he was brought up as a trade possibilty.   Its hard for me to forget that because we both agreed at the time and we double teamed a person on this thread at the time pushing him. 

 

I actually liked Rosen the prospect.  My take was much more nuanced than simply trashing him.  I didn't want him for us vs taking our own prospect in the first because I viewed him as damaged goods and reclaiming him--even at a reduced cost--was going to be more work and less preferable than getting a rookie and starting from scratch.  And Haskins was even a superior prospect to Rosen IMO, if they had come out the same year, I would have preferred Haskins.  As far as Rosen being damaged goods, his confidence was wrecked by that season, he stopped seeing the field well and playing functional football.  But he absolutely had the tools to be a good QB if he'd been drafted into a stable and competent situation in an organization capable of and committed to developing him.  The way his situation played out is eerily similar to Haskins, except we picked Kyle Allen to replace him instead of Kyler Murray and thus still have no clarity at the position.  But just in terms of his actual personal traits, Rosen's combo of feet and his arm talent were the best in his class.  His raw talent was absolutely first round caliber.

 

I don't pay a lot of attention to talk about the intangibles of these kids, and don't buy narratives about intangibles as being smoking gun explanations for why they succeed or fail.  I think we see like 5% of how the sausage is made in this league, and most of what we don't see is not pretty or neat.   I think most of these elite QB prospects who get first round consideration have pretty similar personalities and backgrounds, and their talents are far closer together than we tend to acknowledge, and that a lot of their success comes down to situation and timing and luck.  And I think the league has tons of really good players who if fans got to see how they really live and how unemployable they would be in any non-entertainment/performance based profession, they would be quite shocked and alienated by them.  But because these great players hit it big and panned out, the league tolerates their unprofessionalism and immaturity and antisocial behavior.  And these dudes populate every roster, even in the best and most serious organizations in the league.  The good organizations just tend to be better at managing difficult relations and personality conflicts and getting everyone on the same page for the season and coaxing high level performance out of difficult players.

[JamesMadisonSkins]

I am not a tape guy, especially with QBs.

 

But can someone who knows a bit more explain to me what the difference is between Joe Burrow and Mac Jones? I look at the stat line from last night and I see little difference between what Jones did and what Burrow did last year.

And before you go on about the surrounding talent, Joe Burrow was throwing the ball to Jamar Chase, Justin Jefferson, Terrace Marshall ... and he had Clyde Edward-Helaire at RB and some solid OL-men. Maybe not 1st rounders across the board, but Burrow was rarely touched. So, aside from maybe the swagger and some more TDs, what is the major difference on tape between Burrow and Jones?

[Going Commando]

52 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

We don't know who these people are personally.  I vouched for Guice and Doctson's personality at different times early on but in retrospect that was foolish.  I don't know them as people.

 

I agree with you, we don't know them.  We still don't really know them even when they don't work out in the NFL and the narratives that pan their character come out in an attempt to explain the failure.

 

I think we simply can't know the intangible qualities of these guys from our vantage point.  It's well hidden from public view.

 

I will say this though, comparing Guice to Doctson and Haskins feels wrong.  You're talking about a pathologically violent person with a history of criminal behavior that probably includes rape.  That is a world away from any sort of intangible flaws Haskins and Doctson might have.

[RichmondRedskin88]

I wish we could get him.

[Going Commando]

4 minutes ago, JamesMadisonSkins said:

So, aside from maybe the swagger and some more TDs, what is the major difference on tape between Burrow and Jones?

 

Burrow was much more athletic and was a more accurate passer and he was much better at going off script and playing with anticipation and making plays against pressure.  I think he was tougher too.  IMO he made more remarkable plays and throws in some of his games than Mac Jones did in his whole season.  Last night was an encapsulation of Jones's season.  A million yards and TDs in a 50 point explosion against a good opponent where he didn't make a single special throw.  It was the exact same deal against Georgia and A&M.  Jones rode the wave this year, if he played for Fresno State he'd be getting day three looks, not talked about as a first rounder.

[Warhead36]

Davante Smith is special. Really hope he doesn't go to Philly.

[Skinsinparadise]

39 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

I actually liked Rosen the prospect.  My take was much more nuanced than simply trashing him.  I didn't want him for us vs taking our own prospect in the first because I viewed him as damaged goods and reclaiming him--even at a reduced cost--was going to be more work and less preferable than getting a rookie and starting from scratch. 

 

 They were some long posts going back and forth.   And I recall enough about your posts at that time to remember how deep you went into Rosen's flaws much more so than selling his positives.   

 

39 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

As far as Rosen being damaged goods, his confidence was wrecked by that season, he stopped seeing the field well and playing functional football.  But he absolutely had the tools to be a good QB if he'd been drafted into a stable and competent situation in an organization capable of and committed to developing him.  The way his situation played out is eerily similar to Haskins, except we picked Kyle Allen to replace him instead of Kyler Murray and thus still have no clarity at the position.  But just in terms of his actual personal traits, Rosen's combo of feet and his arm talent were the best in his class.  His raw talent was absolutely first round caliber.

 

I loved Rosen's footwork and quick release.  Still do.  I thought as a decision maker he was borderline atrocious at UCLA but goit away with throws that I didn't think he would in the pros.  He had a good arm but not a great arm IMO.   On the aggregate, I liked him better than Haskins and said so at the time but that was a low bar for me.  I didn't really study Rosen's college tape until after his first year in Arizona. 

 

39 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

I don't pay a lot of attention to talk about the intangibles of these kids, and don't buy narratives about intangibles as being smoking gun explanations for why they succeed or fail.  I think we see like 5% of how the sausage is made in this league, and most of what we don't see is not pretty or neat.  

 

For me that depends.  Often we don't know or its just minor stuff you hear from time to time.  But, sometimes the intangibles are billboard level intense.  And in those cases, I do pay attention.  It's hard not to.   I was one of the only people who liked McLaurin on this thread before that draft.  Part of it was he had billboard level hype as to his intangibles.  It wasn't the only reason I liked him but it was part of the soup.

 

There were some questions about Rosen's intangibles ironically but I wouldn't say billboard level intense both before the draft and while he was at Arizona.  As for Haskins, billboard level would be an understatement.  The questions about his work ethic are so far and so deep -- its King Kong level.  It wasn't that level intense before the draft (but there was some questions about it) but after he arrived it ended up a 100 out of 100 level intensity up through today. 

 

39 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

But because these great players hit it big and panned out, the league tolerates their unprofessionalism and immaturity and antisocial behavior.  And these dudes populate every roster, even in the best and most serious organizations in the league.  The good organizations just tend to be better at managing difficult relations and personality conflicts and getting everyone on the same page for the season and coaxing high level performance out of difficult players.

 

I don't think you can create drive for a player.  They got it or they don't.  You can egg it on but if they aren't driven to be great there is so much you can do especially at the QB spot where going the extra mile in preperation seems essential to their success.  Arians talked about it a lot in his book about QBs.  He said some QBs do it, some don't.  And its a critical component for success or the lack thereof.   Even Haskins close pal Shawn Springs said in an interview something to the effect that he can't do the work for him. 

 

Cooley talks about it a lot.  He'd say being in the same locker room with many players you can tell who loved football and who didn't.  And if he had to takeaway one thing from his professional experience to a GM spot it would be to try to ferret out who loves football and who doesn't.

 

Heck Rivera talked about it himself recently

 

 

 

[KDawg]

31 minutes ago, JamesMadisonSkins said:

I am not a tape guy, especially with QBs.

 

But can someone who knows a bit more explain to me what the difference is between Joe Burrow and Mac Jones? I look at the stat line from last night and I see little difference between what Jones did and what Burrow did last year.

And before you go on about the surrounding talent, Joe Burrow was throwing the ball to Jamar Chase, Justin Jefferson, Terrace Marshall ... and he had Clyde Edward-Helaire at RB and some solid OL-men. Maybe not 1st rounders across the board, but Burrow was rarely touched. So, aside from maybe the swagger and some more TDs, what is the major difference on tape between Burrow and Jones?

 

In my opinion Burrow was a better creator with the ball. He is smarter and more athletic. But the biggest difference is actually the swagger and charisma. 

[RichmondRedskin88]

29 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

Burrow was much more athletic and was a more accurate passer and he was much better at going off script and playing with anticipation and making plays against pressure.  I think he was tougher too.  IMO he made more remarkable plays and throws in some of his games than Mac Jones did in his whole season.  Last night was an encapsulation of Jones's season.  A million yards and TDs in a 50 point explosion against a good opponent where he didn't make a single special throw.  It was the exact same deal against Georgia and A&M.  Jones rode the wave this year, if he played for Fresno State he'd be getting day three looks, not talked about as a first rounder.

Ok hold up.  I don’t think Mac is necessary the next big thing (If it was between Smith, Harris, and him he’s my third choice.) but he had some great throws last night where you could tell he trusted his receivers to make the catch.  Sure he had easy ones but even easy ones get taken for granted.  But acting like he just stood there and did nothing all night is pretty insulting.   

[Skinsinparadise]

54 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

I agree with you, we don't know them.  We still don't really know them even when they don't work out in the NFL and the narratives that pan their character come out in an attempt to explain the failure.

 

I think we simply can't know the intangible qualities of these guys from our vantage point.  It's well hidden from public view.

 

I will say this though, comparing Guice to Doctson and Haskins feels wrong.  You're talking about a pathologically violent person with a history of criminal behavior that probably includes rape.  That is a world away from any sort of intangible flaws Haskins and Doctson might have.

 

Agree.  But the intent of my point centered on that I can love a prospect and not know who they are as a person. It wasn't that the questions about all three were the same.  They are all different narratives and distintly different points, I agree.   

 

I actually think Haskins is a nice guy.  I touted it a number of times on the Haskins thread.  I had three different direct exchanges with him with my kids and I found him super nice.  And I recounted everyone of those narratives on the Haskins thread.  And the reports about him also showcase that he's a nice guy.  Good person. 

 

The intangibles issues with Haskins seems to center on immaturity and lack of professionalism -- not just as to not working hard enough but also showing up late to meetings among other things.    Multiple reporters have said he was warned numerous times on this front by both coaching staffs yet he would improve for a spell and then resort back to the same bad habits.  Hearing some of that existed at Ohio State too was the kicker for me coupled with remembering some of the rumblings about him predraft. 

 

With Doctson it was that he was a quiet-shy guy who some say was homesick and did not love football and didn't practice with intensity.  As for Guice it ended up being personal-character issues.  And I agree his stuff was really bad and apples to oranges to work habit questions. 

 

I brought up those players specifically because I can relate to being loyal to prospects I liked. At the time, I bought Doug Williams' assertion that the vague character issues brought up about Guice before the draft were unfounded.  And as for Doctson, I bought McLoughan's defense of him.  Part of that was I liked both prospects before the draft.   And I get the instinct to double down to defend a prospect based on instinct/habit.    We study some of these players and fall for them like stocks.  And we get used to defending them. 

 

 I can recall the prospects that I touted and they are more special to me when we take them versus dudes like Dalvin Cook. Jeremy Chinn, etc playing for other teams.   I was fighting for McLaurin the same morning we ended up taking him later that day.  In retrospect that was cool.  When we asked each other for a short list of prospects before the last draft, Gibson was on that short list for me.  I pushed Ioannidis minutes before we took him on draft thread.  I got others like that, too. 

 

But I also got some like Guice and Doctson who I was wrong about.  And I get doubling down on them, I did it, too.  But on Guice I bailed as soon as I heard that story this summer.  I trusted Rivera would know one way or another.  Likewise, as for Haskins (and yes the two narratives are entirely different but I am referring to trusting the powers that be) when the current coaching staff doubled down on what the previous coaching staff leaked about Haskins, I believed it.  And even if I had doubts on that, there were other sources who said the same thing who weren't even tied to this team.   

[KDawg]

RB	Every Down	College	Ht/Wt
1	Najee Harris	Alabama	6-2, 230
2	Javante Williams	UNC	5-10, 220
3	Travis Etienne	Clemson	5-10, 200
4	Jaret Patterson*	Buffalo	5-9, 195
5	Michael Carter	UNC	5-8, 199
6	CJ Verdell*	Oregon	5-9, 210
7	Chuba Hubbard*	Oklahoma State	6-1, 207
8	Kylin Hill	Miss. State	5-11, 215
9	Trey Sermon	Ohio State	6-0, 216
10	Trey Ragas	La-Lafayette	5-11, 227
11	Jermar Jefferson*	Oregon State	5-10, 214
12	Keaontay Ingram*	Texas	6-0, 220
13	Spencer Brown	UAB	6-1, 220
14	Elijah Mitchell	Louisiana	5-11, 221

 

 

	Weapon/Homerun
1	Max Borghi*	Washington State	5-10, 197
2	Kenneth Gainwell	Memphis	5-11, 191
3	Demetric Felton	UCLA	5-9, 189

 

	Power
1	Rhamondre Stevenson	Oklahoma	6-0, 236
2	Brian Robinson, Jr.	Alabama	6-1, 221
3	Stevie Scott*	Indiana	6-2, 231

 

 

Travis Etienne Clemson 5-10, 200

Great change of direction runner and a real problem in the open field. Doesn't have great patience or vision at the LoS but he is a very bursty runner that when he hits a hole has top end second level vision and acceleration. His change of direction is top end elite. He can break tackles with the best of them as long as he has some forward momentum built, so if he gets to the LoS you better wrap him up. He has NFL top end receiving skills. He is extremely poor as a pass blocker, though.

 

Najee Harris Alabama 6-2, 230

Patient runner that knows how to set his blocks and burst through the hole. Runs through arm tackles and drives his feet at all times. Great change of direction and tremendous situational awareness. He has really good hands. His ability can make an offensive line look better than they are. Aggressive runner. Solid in pass protection. Has off the charts agility and intelligence. Can literally do anything asked of him. He is the best prospect at running back since Barkley, and he could be an even better prospect than him. 

 

Chuba Hubbard* Oklahoma State 6-1, 207

Runs a lot like Etienne. Great burst beyond the LoS. Aggressive runner on inside hitters, gets to the edge well on outside schemes. Quick and patient runner. Good change of direction. Breaks tackles in the open field. He is not the same as a receiver as Etienne, though. And that's the primary item that sets them apart. I didn't see him in pass pro a whole lot in any of the cut ups, which isn't a great omen for him as far as his ability.

 

Max Borghi* Washington State 5-10, 197

Shifty and elusive. His size makes him tough to see behind the line and he uses his "disadvantage" of being small(er) as an advantage. He has tremendous shift and wiggle and he's hard to make solid contact with. Doesn't hit the hole with great burst in the run game because he is constantly looking for the running lane. His feet are always moving and it looks like his steps per yard is sky high, which allows him to change his lane in a hiccup. He is a reliable, steady back with home run potential in the mold of Austin Ekeler. He won't be a bellcow but he is a touch monster where if utilized correctly can be extremely productive.

 

Keaontay Ingram* Texas 6-0, 220

Slightly smaller than Najee and doesn't have the same footwork. But he is an excellent one cut runner who doesn't shy from contact. He's adequate as a receiver and hits the hole with extreme burst. He mixes patience with anxiousness asa runner where at times he looks like he's trying to force things but then sometimes he sets his blocks up and explodes. He is tough to bring down and he's a productive runner and decent receiver. He seems to lose his balance a bit at times but still a strong runner.

 

Trey Sermon Ohio State 6-0, 216

Runs with a mean streak. Concerns about the reasoning for his late surge in the 2020-2021 season, but having had an injury previously and playing in the Big Ten with a shortened and delayed schedule could easily be the reasoning. Not particularly standout as a pass catcher but he can do it a little bit. He doesn't have a fast change of direction speed so accelerated cut backs aren't really his forte. He has a nasty stiff arm and is good in pass protection. His best skill is his ability to run through contact.

 

CJ Verdell* Oregon 5-9, 210

Athletic and shifty. Receiving threat. High end athleticism that will throw his shoulder into anyone, especially at the goal line. His patience and reads aren't where they need to be for an inside zone scheme runner, but when there is a hole he is electric and getting the ball in space is a recipe for a disaster for defenses. He is a second level runner. What's really impressive for me is that a guy that athletic can drive his feet so well. He actually reminds me of Antonio Gibson a little bit. I have him ranked where he is for the time being, but injuries are something that need to continue to be monitored. That is a concern for him at the next level.

 

Demetric Felton UCLA 5-9, 189

Good receiver used in the flats and in the screen game. One of the more unheralded backs in the draft class, likely due to the fact that he's smaller and he plays for UCLA. He changes direction extremely well while moving near top speed, which is one of his breakout attributes. He translates to more of a "weapon" type of player in the NFL, similar to a Ty Montgomery type. His stop and go move in the backfield as a runner is dangerous if a defensive tackle comes crashing down on him but if he's smart and uses it well he stops and starts so fast that defenses will be left totally off guard. He is a playmaker.

 

Brian Robinson, Jr. Alabama 6-1, 221

Sample size is low... Simply due to the fact he plays behind one of the better running back prospects in the last decade. He isn't a quick twitch back who moves well. He's a big bruiser type who runs directly through tacklers rather than around him. He has good "box" ability (in a confined space he is very shifty). He will carry defenders for extra yards. He is a capable receiver in the backfield as well. He probably translates to more of a short yardage bruiser at the next level that can run to the outside and inside and is decent in pass protection. His ranking won't really reflect it but he is a very solid role player type of back that given the right opportunity will flourish.

 

Trey Ragas La-Lafayette 5-11, 227

"Short" but compact and strong. Good inside runner who sees the holes well. He doesn't necessarily create seams with his patience, but he sees the open lanes and takes them. He uses his off ball hand well for balance and for shedding tackles. He doesn't stretch the field as well horizontally on outside plays as he runs inside. Is a capable receiver with some wiggle. Has a great stutter step move to freeze level 2.

 

Spencer Brown UAB 6-1, 220

Strong runner with decent speed. He doesn't have a whole lot of wiggle and his hands are just okay. His vision isn't where you want it to be for a full time starting back. He isn't a great blocker, evidenced by a pass play against Miami where he ran a route that was designed to take him into position to block a second level defender and he just struggled to break down and make the play.

 

Jermar Jefferson* Oregon State 5-10, 214

He plays very similarly to CJ Verdell stylistically. He's not quite the receiver and he doesn't have the same downhill attack mentality as Verdell as it pertains to making contact. But he is shifty and explosive. His hands aren't quite on the Verdell level, but he could translate long term into an every down NFL back. He doesn't break the tackles you'd like to see, but he is a player that would benefit from another year in college. Since he has already declared, though, he is a guy worth drafting and developing because once he picks up a few minor things he can be extremely dangerous.

 

Kylin Hill Miss. State 5-11, 215

His blocking stands out. He recognizes the rush and gets himself in good position. He's not a stonewall guy ala Portis, but he is a "ride him out" guy. He's not going to wow you with many pancake type blocks. He's a strong downhill runner and has very good situational awareness. Very good stutter read step at times where the hole isn't quite there yet. His strength though is his value in the passing game, both as a protector and as a receiver. He is a very productive receiver even though his receiving ability isn't as flashy as an Etienne or Verdell/Jefferson/Borghi type. He can function as an every down back.

 

Michael Carter UNC 5-8, 199

He is compact at 5-8, but he plays a lot bigger than that. He gets to the edge and doesn't shy from any contact. Extremely agile and he keeps his feet churning when he gets to traffic. What stands out is his steps per minute when he gets to traffic. His running pattern changes slightly and that allows him to change direction, run through tackles or accelerate and lengthen his gait. Electric player despite his height. Watching his shoulder pads he tries to stay square and low as much as possible so his vision is excellent as well.

 

Javante Williams UNC 5-10, 220

Excellent receiving threat out of the backfield. Downhill style runner who seems to always fall forwards for that extra yard or two when he isn't carrying guys. Sound in pass protection and understands when to leak and when not to. Has through the roof balance and agility. He uses his off ball hand really well and it's always active and never along for the ride. Runs with power and has the pad level you'd like to see from a bellcow type NFL back.

 

Kenneth Gainwell Memphis 5-11, 191

Used a lot as a receiver as well as a back. Primarily a bubble receiver but ran some quick outs and hitches. Downhill runner who tries to "cross over" defenders and that slows him down a touch. Good athlete and overall reliable hands, but sometimes drops the easy ones. He is a guy that needs to be on the field as much as possible but not necessarily as the back. Explosive weapon similar to his former teammate Antonio Gibson. Doesn't quite have the same build as Gibson and is built more like a receiver than a back. But he certainly has running back skills that Gibson didn't in college.

 

Jaret Patterson* Buffalo 5-9, 195

If production is the barometer for a back, look no further than Patterson. His speed, as in raw speed, isn't top end. But his on-field speed most certainly is. Smaller back but built like a brick outhouse in a winter storm that doesn't topple. His footwork and processing is top end. He's shifty and not afraid of anything. And despite being under 200 pounds, his mass looks larger than that as he runs downhill, inside, outside and uses his size to sneak through small spaces and drop a shoulder and run through contact. In his career at Buffalo he averaged 6.1 yards a carry and never rushed for under 1000 yards... Including this season where he did it in just 6 games. He also averages 17.3 TD/season. Production is never the end all be all, but his ability matches and he is going to wind up being a steal due to his size in this draft class.

 

Stevie Scott* Indiana 6-2, 231

Not fast or electric, but good size and can get tough yards. He is adequate in pass pro, stepping up into contact and walling off defenders. He could do a better job selling his play fakes. I wouldn't have him as an immediate every down player in the NFL and I'd reserve him for more of a power role.

 

Elijah Mitchell Louisiana 5-11, 221

Relatively productive runner. He can gain tough yards when he gets open space, but he doesn't have great elusiveness when it comes to creating his space by setting up blocks or making a defender miss. His side to side agility and change of direction isn't quite where you'd like it to be and his power doesn't make up for that.

 

Rhamondre Stevenson Oklahoma 6-0, 236

Pure, unadulterated power. He breaks tackles on seemingly every run and averaged 3.89 yards after contact for the season. This is an incredible rate for a power back. The concern with him is that he is kind of a one trick pony. He is serviceable in pass pro but he isn't much of a receiver, though I don't think it's impossible for him to catch some balls. He probably isn't on the field in most third down situations. I think he classifies more as a power back than an every down back, but he can certainly be relied on for entire games and 20-30 carries per game.

 

[Warhead36]

I don't care if he's a nice guy. Tom Brady isn't nice. Big Ben isn't nice. Give me a ruthless SOB that will win games. I'm building a football team, not an after school club.