Next Day Thread: Redskins vs. Giants

[Burgold]

14 minutes ago, sempre_victrix said:

I'm sick of hearing how injuries have held Jay back.  He's been here 6 years and had some part of a hand in acquiring players and coaches.  Why, after 6 years do we not have any depth, anything remotely resembling a secondary, and a WR corps full of kids and Richardson?  Now, we're losing our Pro-Bowl LT, probably losing our RG, and nobody can get open unless they win a footrace.

 

I know the player personnel  is not totally on Jay, but if he is not involved, then he needs to bail out.

In addition to that, part of the coach's job is to get the back up ready to play. After six years, shouldn't we have a deep enough team to survive some injuries. Now, in fairness, I blame the Front Office for most of the depth problems. However, I've seen teams with injury situations similar to the Redskins find away to keep the wheels on the bus. Jay has a mixed record at this. I actually thought he did a commendable job keeping the ship afloat until Colt got injured. After Colt fell Jay pretty much threw up his hands and said, "I give up. You other guys coach this team. I'll fold my arms over my chest and chew gum."

[sempre_victrix]

2 minutes ago, Burgold said:

In addition to that, part of the coach's job is to get the back up ready to play. After six years, shouldn't we have a deep enough team to survive some injuries. Now, in fairness, I blame the Front Office for most of the depth problems. However, I've seen teams with injury situations similar to the Redskins find away to keep the wheels on the bus. Jay has a mixed record at this. I actually thought he did a commendable job keeping the ship afloat until Colt got injured. After Colt fell Jay pretty much threw up his hands and said, "I give up. You other guys coach this team. I'll fold my arms over my chest and chew gum."

 

If, as reported,  Haskins is/was not getting reps with the starting team, why not?  He is, hopefully, the QB of the future and he is the backup for Case.  He should be getting reps.

 

The other thing that irks me, is no matter how bad it gets, no matter how hot the dumpster fire is burning, he comes off more pathetic than mad or angry.  Dude needs some ass kicking fire. 

[Vanguard]

Dunbar who I have always praised, really played well.  I like Dunbar.  I was almost about to make a critical post of his play following this game if he didn’t played well.  The guy played outstanding.  I’m pretty sure he’s our best corner.

[CowboyKillerz]

Back in the preseason Jay thought he was soooooo funny joking about being fired and/or not being here next year if it isnt a successful season... Id have fired his clown ass right then and there.

Guy is coasting, doesnt give  ****... Thats more harmful then good most times.

The attitude is infectious- why should anyone care if he doesn't?

Who holds anyone accountable?

 

Where I work, if you put in your 2 weeks most likely your resignation is accepted on the spot knowing your 2 weeks of idgaf work will not be very beneficial to the whole.

 

Case in point (no pun... Case IS a pun), if he is this checked out.. This unprepared, and has zero confidence from the locker room.. Why keep him? So he can watch it  all burn as he laughs all the way to vegas?!

I thought it was "lose to the giants and hes fired" week?

He isnt even coaching or trying to do anything on the merits of pride- he is just going through the motions- f that. Thanks for the ****show- buhbye!

Make Cooley interim for all I care... But no way we get worse canning Jay and his doofusmunusky.

 

Someone can at least try for the remainder of this dumpster fire of a season.

Then we can evaluate our options from top to bottom. Hopefully starting with BA and all his tampa friends

[skinzplay]

I agree with the thoughts on firing Gruden. If you're willing to give him the hook this fast, then you should've just put him out of his misery at the end of last season. OP is on point......it all starts and, unfortunately for us, stalls from the top.

[FuriousD]

13 hours ago, Burgold said:

But seriously though, give me a break. This team as constituted took the Eagles to the woodshed for a half. The oline has played credibly in pass pro and has never in six years under Gruden been a good run blocking team even with Trent. Jordan Reed doesn't count because he wasn't there last year and when he was he was AWFUL! It's not hard to make an argument that this year's receiving corp is superior to last year's. And last year's team which went 6-3 to start suffered far more injuries than this team so far.

 

This team has talent. It has talent enough to be pretty good. We saw that in the preseason. When every team plays vanilla and it's all one on one, Gruden's teams can compete. Put in any game planning and the Redskins this year are sunk. 

Turns out what we saw in one half against the Eagles was something of a mirage.  The sad reality of what Gruden has to work with is essentially a 3rd string QB, playing behind a rebuilt O-line, with talent depleted RB's, TE's & receivers.  

 

You can argue that this years receiver core should be better than last years but that's a low bar to hurdle.  And you can even claim Jordan Reed is awful at staying healthy and mock his blocking ability to boot, but his talent as a receiver is/was undeniable.  His presence on the field was a threat that drew defenders to him and created space and sparked opportunities for others.  Something Sprinkle and Davis can't do anywhere near as well.

 

And then there's the running game, if you can call it that!  Averaging less than 3 yds a carry, opponents don't even have to load up to stop the run as has no start that needs stopping!  So, how do you manufacture drives that result in touchdowns with no running game to speak of, a severely talent depleted passing game and yellow hankies flying on every other play? And yet somehow, Gruden is supposed to scheme his way out of this while to any defensive coordinator, this must feel like shooting fish in a barrel.  

[dballer]

On 9/30/2019 at 6:15 PM, megared said:

 

He was brought in specifically to groom RGIII after developing Dalton.  And he gets credit for Cousins' ascent. 

 

 

 1+1 = 2.  1st year = wasted evaluating Haskins, losing a lot.  2nd season expectations begin.  If he has a 4-5 win season in the 2nd year, he's easily on the hot seat.  

 

Oh...I see...You simply think Gruden is something he is not. Easy mistake to make. 

 

He was brought in specifically to groom RG3...and within the first moments of seeing him practice decided he would never work. 

 

Andy Dalton? His rookie year QBR was 46.9. From there it was  47.7, 55.1, 48.5...HUGE development.

 

Cousins? (After 2 years with the Shannys) his first 6 games in 2014 with Gruden were a 52. He jumped up to 71 in 2015, then 66, then 54 in his last year. 

 

My Point? Dalton and Cousins, were not projects. And after all the time they spent with Gruden, they didn't exactly "develop" much past their original rookie years. 

 

Gruden has no interest in projects. He wants a QB he can put into his system, and will do what he wants them to do. Why do you think he wants Colt McCoy to play so badly? He said it himself in the presser the other day, "because he has been in the system for 6 years". Gruden is a system guy. Not a develop a raw QB type of guy. 

 

As for your second part, THIS year could be wasted spent evaluating Haskins instead, which is my entire point. But it won't be a good evaluation under Gruden because he will just keep trying to hammer the square peg into the round hole. 

 

But, if you believe Gruden is the best option the rest of this year that's cool. If you think he is the best option for next year, well I hate to break it to you, it ain't happening. But still, opinions are had by all. 

 

 

[justice98]

Gruden should have to answer for why a rookie QB who they think is not ready to play was the lone backup QB.  Going into a game where the starter was gimpy.  Because he loves Colt McCoy so much, he literally had one QB through the first 4 games that was ready to play.  That seems negligent to me, and a case of rolling the dice at QB, again.

[megared]

1 hour ago, dballer said:

Andy Dalton? His rookie year QBR was 46.9. From there it was  47.7, 55.1, 48.5...HUGE development.

 

Way to cherrypick there.  Dalton's best year he threw for 4,293 yards, 33 TDs, 20 INTs with Gruden as the OC (2013).  

 

Quote

He helped develop second-round pick Andy Dalton into an immediate starter and three-time playoff participant for Cincinnati, though his offenses sputtered in each of those three losses.

 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/10267454/washington-redskins-hire-jay-gruden-coach

 

Quote

The 46-year-old Gruden has spent the last three seasons as the offensive coordinator of the Cincinnati Bengals, where his skill in helping to develop Andy Dalton will no doubt be of use when he takes on the task of grooming another young franchise quarterback, Robert Griffin III.

 

https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/sports/Redskins-Hire-Bengals-Offensive-Coordinator-Jay-Gruden-to-Replace-Mike-Shanahan-239453161.html

 

1 hour ago, dballer said:

 

Cousins? (After 2 years with the Shannys) his first 6 games in 2014 with Gruden were a 52. He jumped up to 71 in 2015, then 66, then 54 in his last year. 

 

My Point? Dalton and Cousins, were not projects. And after all the time they spent with Gruden, they didn't exactly "develop" much past their original rookie years. 

 

You anticipated Cousins playing his way into being paid like a franchise QB?  When we picked him, in the 4th round, you foresaw him getting franchised twice, and becoming one of the highest paid players in the league?  I'm not even sure what you're arguing anymore.  

 

Cousins started 8 games before Gruden was hired.  It's become painfully apparent that his best years easily were in Jay's offense ('15 & '16) when he had WRs to throw to.  But Jay had nothing to do with that?

 

1 hour ago, dballer said:

But, if you believe Gruden is the best option the rest of this year that's cool. If you think he is the best option for next year, well I hate to break it to you, it ain't happening. But still, opinions are had by all. 

 

I've already said I don't think he's the guy moving forward.  But it's the GM's call.  No, we shouldn't fire him because we know he isn't the guy (yet).  If a new GM wants to let Jay play out next year (knowing it's a lost year) and focus on building the personnel side of the house, and shedding expensive contracts, I'd welcome it.  

 

When Roseman rebuilt the Eagles, he didn't dismantle everything for the sake of change.  He kept their sports science program, even some of the plays from Chip's playbook, and assistants from his staff.

 

There's no shortcuts out of this mess. It's going to be a multi-year thing.  No coach is going to find this job particularly attractive with no elements of a rebuild having been executed.  And I doubt Jay would sabotage his job prospects (outside of being on his brother's staff) if he doesn't coach the last year of his contract to the best of his ability, lame duck or not.  

[dballer]

20 hours ago, megared said:

 

Way to cherrypick there.  Dalton's best year he threw for 4,293 yards, 33 TDs, 20 INTs with Gruden as the OC (2013).  

 

 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/10267454/washington-redskins-hire-jay-gruden-coach

 

 

https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/sports/Redskins-Hire-Bengals-Offensive-Coordinator-Jay-Gruden-to-Replace-Mike-Shanahan-239453161.html

 

 

You anticipated Cousins playing his way into being paid like a franchise QB?  When we picked him, in the 4th round, you foresaw him getting franchised twice, and becoming one of the highest paid players in the league?  I'm not even sure what you're arguing anymore.  

 

Cousins started 8 games before Gruden was hired.  It's become painfully apparent that his best years easily were in Jay's offense ('15 & '16) when he had WRs to throw to.  But Jay had nothing to do with that?

 

 

I've already said I don't think he's the guy moving forward.  But it's the GM's call.  No, we shouldn't fire him because we know he isn't the guy (yet).  If a new GM wants to let Jay play out next year (knowing it's a lost year) and focus on building the personnel side of the house, and shedding expensive contracts, I'd welcome it.  

 

When Roseman rebuilt the Eagles, he didn't dismantle everything for the sake of change.  He kept their sports science program, even some of the plays from Chip's playbook, and assistants from his staff.

 

There's no shortcuts out of this mess. It's going to be a multi-year thing.  No coach is going to find this job particularly attractive with no elements of a rebuild having been executed.  And I doubt Jay would sabotage his job prospects (outside of being on his brother's staff) if he doesn't coach the last year of his contract to the best of his ability, lame duck or not.  

 

Dalton had one good year. Cousins, had one good year. Do you believe Cousins should be getting paid what he is being paid? I bet Minnesota doesn't believe that anymore.

 

What I am arguing, that seems to be going over your head, is that Dalton and Cousins were not raw projects. They were 4 and 3 year, pocket passing, college starters. And Cousins had two years, and started 4 games under the Shanahan's before Jay got to him. He wasn't some raw project.

 

They both started off as middling QBs in the NFL, and that is what they are today. They both had a blip of a season, in which they did well within Jay's system. If Colt McCoy could stay healthy, and could get 4 years in Jay's system, he'd probably have one good season in there as well. Would you then give Jay credit for developing a 33 year old Colt McCoy?

 

It amuses me that you keep bringing up the fact that he was brought in to develop RG3 as part of your argument. And yet, he failed MISERABLY at developing RG3. So miserably, that one might think he didn't even put forth the effort of trying to develop him. 

 

 

 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

21 hours ago, megared said:

I've already said I don't think he's the guy moving forward.  But it's the GM's call.  No, we shouldn't fire him because we know he isn't the guy (yet).  If a new GM wants to let Jay play out next year (knowing it's a lost year) and focus on building the personnel side of the house, and shedding expensive contracts, I'd welcome it.  

 

When Roseman rebuilt the Eagles, he didn't dismantle everything for the sake of change.  He kept their sports science program, even some of the plays from Chip's playbook, and assistants from his staff.

 

There's no shortcuts out of this mess. It's going to be a multi-year thing.  No coach is going to find this job particularly attractive with no elements of a rebuild having been executed.  And I doubt Jay would sabotage his job prospects (outside of being on his brother's staff) if he doesn't coach the last year of his contract to the best of his ability, lame duck or not.  

I'm with you on this.  Firing Jay is merely a move to appease rabid fans that want blood.  The more prudent move is to remove Bruce, hire a legit GM and let him decide what to do next.  If that's fire Jay now, so he can get his guy - so be it.  If that's hang on to Jay, and see what happens while he plots the course of action - so be it.  Firing Jay right now really solves absolutely nothing.

[Voice_of_Reason]

24 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I'm with you on this.  Firing Jay is merely a move to appease rabid fans that want blood.  The more prudent move is to remove Bruce, hire a legit GM and let him decide what to do next.  If that's fire Jay now, so he can get his guy - so be it.  If that's hang on to Jay, and see what happens while he plots the course of action - so be it.  Firing Jay right now really solves absolutely nothing.

I disagree.  There are 2 different things which the team has to consider now, for right or wrong.  

 

1. They have to rebuild the football ops into a winning organization.

 

2. They have to rebuild faith in the fan base.

 

Jay has had 6 years.  And his results are what they are.  It’s done.  You don’t get a 7th season based on these results regardless of circumstance.  Also, next year would be Jay’s lame duck season.  You can’t have Jay going into a lame duck coaching season, so you’d have to extend him.  And you REALLY can’t do that.  There’s no way you can sell to anybody that the plan is to come back with an extended Jay in year 7 to try again.  That dog just don’t hunt.

 

So Dan needs to man up and fire Jay.  Either now or later.  It doesn’t really matter to me at this point.  But it’s time to move on.  

 

If Dan does hire a new GM/FO exec, you have to give that guy a completely clean slate and not ask him to deal with Bruce and Dan’s mess.  

 

BTW, this includes firing Manusky and virtually the entire defensive coaching staff, and probably a good bit of the offensive coaching staff as well.  

 

It is complete reboot time.  And Dan needs to swing the sword himself and give the new guy a clean slate.  

 

Assuming there is a new guy.

 

If it’s Bruce again, it really doesn’t matter.

[dballer]

^ The prudent thing is not to hire a GM and have him start firing people as his first move. 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

1 hour ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I disagree.  There are 2 different things which the team has to consider now, for right or wrong.  

 

1. They have to rebuild the football ops into a winning organization.

 

2. They have to rebuild faith in the fan base.

 

Firing Jay and replacing him with someone else may satisfy the hunger of a portion of the fan base temporarily but it will not rebuild faith.  Firing Jay while Bruce remains does nothing to build faith.  Sure, there is a demographic of the fan base that froths at the mouth in regards to coaching and will lead themselves to believe the next guy can cure the ills of the franchise.  I just don't think that demographic is large enough to make much of a difference.

 

if Dan is going to swing the sword, it needs to be a huge sword that hits Jay and Bruce at the same time.  It needs to be a hard reset and acknowledgment of failures, followed by hires that build goodwill and eventually wins.

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 hour ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

 

Firing Jay and replacing him with someone else may satisfy the hunger of a portion of the fan base temporarily but it will not rebuild faith.  Firing Jay while Bruce remains does nothing to build faith.  Sure, there is a demographic of the fan base that froths at the mouth in regards to coaching and will lead themselves to believe the next guy can cure the ills of the franchise.  I just don't think that demographic is large enough to make much of a difference.

 

if Dan is going to swing the sword, it needs to be a huge sword that hits Jay and Bruce at the same time.  It needs to be a hard reset and acknowledgment of failures, followed by hires that build goodwill and eventually wins.

I agree with all of this.  

 

I recommend Ice.  The Stark family sword.  It’ll get the job done. (And don’t come at with me with the fact it was melted down to make Widow’s wail and Oath Keeper.  I get it. But it’s a gif that fits.  GOT nerding over.)  

 

[dballer]

1 hour ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

 

Firing Jay and replacing him with someone else may satisfy the hunger of a portion of the fan base temporarily but it will not rebuild faith.  Firing Jay while Bruce remains does nothing to build faith.  Sure, there is a demographic of the fan base that froths at the mouth in regards to coaching and will lead themselves to believe the next guy can cure the ills of the franchise.  I just don't think that demographic is large enough to make much of a difference.

 

if Dan is going to swing the sword, it needs to be a huge sword that hits Jay and Bruce at the same time.  It needs to be a hard reset and acknowledgment of failures, followed by hires that build goodwill and eventually wins.

 

Yeh...firing Jay is just one of the steps. Bruce has to be fired as well. If Bruce isn't fired, then you might as well keep Jay after all because none of it will matter...

 

I believe Widow's Wail would be fitting for Bruce 😁

 

[megared]

On 9/30/2019 at 4:20 PM, dballer said:

Jay needs to go, mainly because I want to see Haskins under someone else to find out if we need to draft another QB next year.

 

On 9/30/2019 at 4:48 PM, megared said:

That's Jay's calling card...is being able to develop guys into viable starters.   

 

On 9/30/2019 at 5:04 PM, dballer said:

Ok, lol, first...that’s Jays calling card? Is it?! That’s the first time I’ve heard that since he was brought here to develop RG3.

 

On 9/30/2019 at 5:15 PM, megared said:

He was brought in specifically to groom RGIII after developing Dalton.  And he gets credit for Cousins' ascent. 

 

On 10/2/2019 at 7:14 AM, dballer said:

Oh...I see...You simply think Gruden is something he is not. Easy mistake to make. 

 

22 hours ago, megared said:

*posts links of articles confirming Jay was hired to groom RGIII after being credited for developing Dalton* 

 

1 hour ago, dballer said:

Dalton had one good year. Cousins, had one good year. Do you believe Cousins should be getting paid what he is being paid? I bet Minnesota doesn't believe that anymore.

 

It doesn't matter...both of them had career years under Jay.  If you want to argue that his offense makes QBs look better than what they really are, you won't get any argument from me.  

 

1 hour ago, dballer said:

What I am arguing, that seems to be going over your head, is that Dalton and Cousins were not raw projects. They were 4 and 3 year, pocket passing, college starters. And Cousins had two years, and started 4 games under the Shanahan's before Jay got to him. He wasn't some raw project.

 

They both started off as middling QBs in the NFL, and that is what they are today. They both had a blip of a season, in which they did well within Jay's system. If Colt McCoy could stay healthy, and could get 4 years in Jay's system, he'd probably have one good season in there as well. Would you then give Jay credit for developing a 33 year old Colt McCoy?

 

mid·dling

/ˈmidliNG/

adjective

moderate or average in size, amount, or rank.

 

• Dalton couldn't have been a 'middling' NFL QB when he was drafted out of TCU and developed into a day 1 starter under Jay's watch.  

 

No one had an idea that Cousins could even be a 'middling' QB until Jay came.  

 

I've got plenty of legitimate gripes about what Jay's done...but we don't need to fabricate a narrative that isn't true.  Those guys didn't have a stretch of career years by osmosis.  Dalton's play declined since he left (despite the fact that he should've been getting better with experience)...Cousins has been pretty much the same, even with a much better supporting cast.  

 

1 hour ago, dballer said:

It amuses me that you keep bringing up the fact that he was brought in to develop RG3 as part of your argument. And yet, he failed MISERABLY at developing RG3. So miserably, that one might think he didn't even put forth the effort of trying to develop him. 

 

The guy was a QB, he game plans and sees the game as a QB.  He was/is respected around the league for having a a great offensive mind, and being able to develop QBs.  He was one of the most sought after candidates that offseason (2013).  That was why we hired him.

 

He was identified as that guy could come in and salvage RGIII's career, if anyone could.  We sure as hell didn't hire him for his run game scheming, or defensive acumen.  There was never a question that he was expected to come in, execute his offense, call his own plays, and improve QB play.  

[dballer]

18 minutes ago, megared said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It doesn't matter...both of them had career years under Jay.  If you want to argue that his offense makes QBs look better than what they really are, you won't get any argument from me.  

 

 

mid·dling

/ˈmidliNG/

adjective

moderate or average in size, amount, or rank.

 

• Dalton couldn't have been a 'middling' NFL QB when he was drafted out of TCU and developed into a day 1 starter under Jay's watch.  

 

No one had an idea that Cousins could even be a 'middling' QB until Jay came.  

 

I've got plenty of legitimate gripes about what Jay's done...but we don't need to fabricate a narrative that isn't true.  Those guys didn't have a stretch of career years by osmosis.  Dalton's play declined since he left (despite the fact that he should've been getting better with experience)...Cousins has been pretty much the same, even with a much better supporting cast.  

 

 

The guy was a QB, he game plans and sees the game as a QB.  He was/is respected around the league for having a a great offensive mind, and being able to develop QBs.  He was one of the most sought after candidates that offseason (2013).  That was why we hired him.

 

He was identified as that guy could come in and salvage RGIII's career, if anyone could.  We sure as hell didn't hire him for his run game scheming, or defensive acumen.  There was never a question that he was expected to come in, execute his offense, call his own plays, and improve QB play.  

 

So Jay developed Dalton into a day 1 starter but couldn’t develop Haskins. 

 

The Shanahans had an idea about Cousins long before Gruden got here...

 

I’m sorry brother, you simply will not convince me Jay Gruden is the right guy to develop Haskins. 

 

If you want to convince me his offensive scheme can work, I don’t need convincing. If the Redskins had drafted a guy like Ryan Finley he’d be in that system right now, looking fairly good. Of course, he would only look so good, ever. That isn’t the route they went. Jay doesn’t have the updated google maps to get Haskins where he needs to go. 

 

We we can go back and forth like this forever but it doesn’t matter. Jay won’t be here next year. And If you think he will finish this year, hit up mybookie.com...you could probably get some real nice odds and make some money.

[megared]

3 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Also, next year would be Jay’s lame duck season.  You can’t have Jay going into a lame duck coaching season, so you’d have to extend him.  And you REALLY can’t do that. 

 

Why not?

 

 

It doesn't appear to be derailing the Cowboy's season.

 

I don't think the fact that the Viking's added a year to Zimmer's contract affected them being the mediocre team we expected.  

[megared]

7 minutes ago, dballer said:

 

So Jay developed Dalton into a day 1 starter but couldn’t develop Haskins. 

 

The Shanahans had an idea about Cousins long before Gruden got here...

 

I’m sorry brother, you simply will not convince me Jay Gruden is the right guy to develop Haskins. 

 

If you want to convince me his offensive scheme can work, I don’t need convincing. If the Redskins had drafted a guy like Ryan Finley he’d be in that system right now, looking pretty good. That isn’t the route they went. Jay doesn’t have the updated google maps to get Haskins where he needs to go. 

 

We we can go back and forth like this forever but it doesn’t matter. Jay won’t be here next year. And If you think he will finish this year, hit up mybookie.com...you could probably get some real nice odds and make some money.

 

What's the argument?  That Haskins = Dalton or that the situations of the teams are comparable?  

 

You're misconstruing my argument. 

 

In a nutshell:  Maybe we should broaden our coaching search beyond finding the guy that can make our newest shiny toy go.  But, if you leave that decision to Snyder (&/or Allen) we aren't going to ever get beyond that immediate gratification choice.  

 

While you're making a big fuss to blame this all on Jay, you forget that it's equally possible that RGIII was going to bust regardless of who was coaching him.  And even if he developed into a pocket passer, his body was probably never going to hold up (unless he decided to abandon the one thing that made him dangerous to defenses).    Also, his career failed due to a multitude of factors and people, not just Jay. 

 

Whatever your ratio of blame is that falls between Snyder and Allen, please don't forget:  the last non-offensive head coach we've had was Schottenheimer.  

 

Part of being more strategic is looking beyond the immediate needs, and figuring out an optimal long term path.    

 

I'd much rather have a strong leader of men versus a hot-shot offensive coordinator, at least this time.    

[dballer]

1 hour ago, megared said:

 

What's the argument?  That Haskins = Dalton or that the situations of the teams are comparable?  

 

 

What...My point, literally, is that they are not comparable. The argument is you are calling Jay a QB Guru because he developed Dalton into a day 1 starter. My argument is that Dalton was for more game ready coming in, as a 4 year starter, than Haskins. Hence, didn't need to develop him as much.

 

1 hour ago, megared said:

While you're making a big fuss to blame this all on Jay, you forget that it's equally possible that RGIII was going to bust regardless of who was coaching him.  And even if he developed into a pocket passer, his body was probably never going to hold up (unless he decided to abandon the one thing that made him dangerous to defenses).    Also, his career failed due to a multitude of factors and people, not just Jay. 

 

Whatever your ratio of blame is that falls between Snyder and Allen, please don't forget:  the last non-offensive head coach we've had was Schottenheimer.  

 

Part of being more strategic is looking beyond the immediate needs, and figuring out an optimal long term path.    

 

I'd much rather have a strong leader of men versus a hot-shot offensive coordinator, at least this time.    

 

I again, for like the 5th time during the conversation, am not blaming this all on Jay. I forget nothing, I am just using RG3 as an example of someone Jay could not develop. 

 

But Jay is not without blame either. And it really doesn't matter either way, he is going to be gone. The argument should be if he is fired sooner, or later. There is no argument for him to be here past this year. 

 

I am also not tied to Haskins. But we need to see him this year. As much as possible. So the next GM and HC have film to evaluate. If he looks like he could be a legitimate QB, that will attract candidates. If he doesn't, and we have a chance at a top pick, that will also attract candidates. 

 

1 hour ago, megared said:

 

Why not?

 

It doesn't appear to be derailing the Cowboy's season.

 

I don't think the fact that the Viking's added a year to Zimmer's contract affected them being the mediocre team we expected.  

 

I'd be hard-pressed to believe you do not see a difference in the situations of Dallas and Minnesota compared to Washington under Gruden. In case you don't - Zimmer 49-34. Garrett - 80-59. Gruden - 35-48. That is what we call, bottom line.

 

Again, OF COURSE THE FO IS ALSO TO BLAME. And OF COURSE Bruce Allen needs to be fired. Like I said above, but you seem to ignore to push your own argument. I BELIEVE BRUCE ALLEN IS CURRENTLY THE BIGGEST PROBLEM THE REDSKINS HAVE. 

 

That does not mean Jay gets a pass. His time in Washington has come to an end. Wish him luck in his next venture, he seems like a good dude. 

 

 

[megared]

2 minutes ago, dballer said:

 

What...The argument is you are calling Jay a QB Guru because he developed Dalton into a day 1 starter. My argument is that Dalton was for more game ready coming in, as a 4 year starter, than Haskins. Hence, didn't need to develop him as much.

 

I'm not calling him a 'QB guru'.  I'm saying that it is what he's known for.  A big part of that was the work he did with Dalton.  Whether he was the most pro ready guy of all time, he got credited for developing him.  It isn't my place to really debate that, because there were four teams lined up to pay him to coach...because of his perceived work with Dalton, and the Bengal's offense.    

 

2 minutes ago, dballer said:

I again, for like the 5th time during the conversation, am not blaming this all on Jay. I forget nothing, I am just using RG3 as an example of someone Jay could not develop. 

 

But Jay is not without blame either. And it really doesn't matter either way, he is going to be gone. The argument should be if he is fired sooner, or later. There is no argument for him to be here past this year. 

 

I am also not tied to Haskins. But we need to see him this year. As much as possible. So the next GM and HC have film to evaluate. If he looks like he could be a legitimate QB, that will attract candidates. If he doesn't, and we have a chance at a top pick, that will also attract candidates. 

 

The guy sucks as a head coach.  Everyone knows that.  But if you fire him to make the same mistake twice "We need a guy to develop Haskins"...what've you really learned?  My point is at the end of the day, you might as well have just kept Gruden for the extra year. 

 

There's a lot of reasons to pick a head coach...let's stop fixating on the lowest hanging fruit.  You can have a QB be developed without your head coach being that guy to do it.  

 

2 minutes ago, dballer said:

I'd be hard-pressed to believe you do not see a difference in the situations of Dallas and Minnesota compared to Washington under Gruden. In case you don't - Zimmer 49-34. Garrett - 80-59. Gruden - 35-48.

 

Again, OF COURSE THE FO IS ALSO TO BLAME. But that does NOT matter.

 

Garrett's situation is a "**** or get off the pot" move.  Jerry's gotta decide if he wants to continue on with Garrett or go with their up and coming OC, Moore.  

 

I just don't see how it's such a taboo move to have a mediocre coach play out the last year of his contract.  I get why the Steelers and Giants don't allow it to happen...but we aren't there as an organization.   Gruden has accomplished absolutely zero to facilitate such treatment nor considerations. 

 

Being honest, I feel like the longer we delay the inevitable (firing/hiring the HC), the better chance we have of a full overhaul. 

•   If Gruden is canned during the season or before Allen, we can largely assume nothing is going to change structurally in the FO next season. 
•   If Gruden/Allen are canned together it means Snyder likely has someone in mind already.  Going to go out on a limb here and guess it's going to be an offensive guy that's at least perceived as good with QBs. 
•   If Allen is canned first, it actually would seem as if Snyder's is trying to avoid swapping a witch for the devil this time.  

[Voice_of_Reason]

2 hours ago, megared said:

 

Why not?

 

 

It doesn't appear to be derailing the Cowboy's season.

 

I don't think the fact that the Viking's added a year to Zimmer's contract affected them being the mediocre team we expected.  

I you can't see the difference between the siuation Jason Garrett is in in Dallas and Jay is in here, I can't help you.

 

The going theory is you shouldn't go into a lame duck season for a coach because players don't know who they are working for if the coach doesn't have tenure. 

 

I guess to each their own.  I'm fairly shocked Jerry didn't extend Garrett.  But he will eventually.  

[megared]

27 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I you can't see the difference between the siuation Jason Garrett is in in Dallas and Jay is in here, I can't help you.

 

The going theory is you shouldn't go into a lame duck season for a coach because players don't know who they are working for if the coach doesn't have tenure. 

 

I guess to each their own.  I'm fairly shocked Jerry didn't extend Garrett.  But he will eventually.  

 

Garrett was 24-24 after the 2013 season when Jones first let him enter the final year of his contract.  The Cowboys responded by going 12-4 in 2014.  If the Cowboys underperform this season, Jones has an up & coming OC in Kellen Moore that he could hand the reins over to.

 

Guys, this isn't unprecedented, some crazy talk or a completely outrageous idea.  

 

In our situation...I'm more afraid that we can Jay, Bruce stays and we have Dumb & Dumber leading yet another 'search' that will result in a candidate that we have to guarantee more years to, in order to beat out competition, again.  (And he'll probably have a connection to the post-SB Bucs teams that never accomplished ****).  Names I wouldn't be surprised to hear:  Gus Bradley, Nathaniel Hackett, Raheem Morris, Todd Wash, Pete Mangurian.

 

But then the roster will still suck...and at some point we're finally looking for a new VP/GM while this coach has however many years left on his contract, fully guaranteed.  I'm sorry, but until I hear otherwise I've gotta root for the outcome that most limits the long term damage Allen can further incur.    

 

I have no desire to think about Jay being gone, unless it's guaranteed to be a package deal.  

[Vilandil Tasardur]

My problem with firing Jay is that we are an absolute dumpster fire. We are not appealing to good coaching candidates or players. Firing Bruce and letting the new person pick the next coach MIGHT help, but it also might not. I think there's a reason a lot of new GMs keep the old guy for a year. You need that year to rebuild the foundation before you're attractive to top talent HCs. 

 

The last thing we want is a situation where we're settling for the 4th or 5th best head coaching candidate on the market because we are the least desirable job. Even worse would be getting locked in to a multi year deal with that "less desirable" candidate. Gruden isn't the guy to take us to the top, but he could buy us a year of stability while a new GM makes us less of a laughing stock.