Riggo-toni Posted June 27, 2019 Share Posted June 27, 2019 18 hours ago, volsmet said: Some of us are better at things than others, I am that us. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted June 27, 2019 Share Posted June 27, 2019 (edited) 9 hours ago, Corcaigh said: Worse that that. Gambling with whales. CFTC trading data shows a majority of larger holders are now shorting CME Bitcoin futures. Nice.... Just checked bitcoin value, nothing like that warm comfy feeling of losing $3000 over night. But that's probably why our Bitcoin prophet has been so quiet today. Edited June 27, 2019 by AsburySkinsFan 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sportjunkie07 Posted June 27, 2019 Share Posted June 27, 2019 29 minutes ago, AsburySkinsFan said: Nice.... Just checked bitcoin value, nothing like that warm comfy feeling of losing $3000 over night. But that's probably why our Bitcoin prophet has been so quiet today. Par for the course. Not a big deal. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TradeTheBeal! Posted June 27, 2019 Share Posted June 27, 2019 Prolly a good time to buy in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sportjunkie07 Posted June 27, 2019 Share Posted June 27, 2019 (edited) 14 minutes ago, TryTheBeal! said: Prolly a good time to buy in. Actually probably is. Could be a long bull trap but I dont see it. Edited June 27, 2019 by sportjunkie07 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corcaigh Posted June 27, 2019 Share Posted June 27, 2019 (edited) 21 minutes ago, TryTheBeal! said: Prolly a good time to buy in. Depends what you mean by "prolly" and "good". By good you mean not as bad a time as January 2018. Edited June 27, 2019 by Corcaigh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Springfield Posted June 27, 2019 Share Posted June 27, 2019 29 minutes ago, TryTheBeal! said: Prolly a good time to buy in. I bought in yesterday and now all my money’s gone. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Do Itch Big Posted June 27, 2019 Share Posted June 27, 2019 I made 40 dollars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TradeTheBeal! Posted June 28, 2019 Share Posted June 28, 2019 29 minutes ago, Springfield said: I bought in yesterday and now all my money’s gone. Welp...Set your alarm and go sell some donuts and check back in when your pockets gets right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redskin4ever Posted June 28, 2019 Share Posted June 28, 2019 It's kind of funny reading through this thread. A lot of people are giving evidence as to why bitcoin isn't a good investment. A few are saying what a great investment it is, but give no facts or evidence. They just keep saying "Invest and make money. If you don't invest money, you will miss out." Someone mentioned a ponzi scheme earlier, and I'm not saying it is a ponzi scheme, but the people who invest in it sound just like people who have invested in a ponzi scheme. They just look for other people to put in more money so they make more money. They don't explain the product behind the investment, how it can sustain growth, or even what your investment is really getting you. Just put more money in and you'll make money. I don't know how many people have asked me in the past to just join their company to become a partner in whatever it was they were doing. It was basically a new variation of a ponzi scheme, but find ways to make them legal or sound like an actual business. This reminds me so much of that. It all just sounds like an investment in hype. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sportjunkie07 Posted June 28, 2019 Share Posted June 28, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, Redskin4ever said: It's kind of funny reading through this thread. A lot of people are giving evidence as to why bitcoin isn't a good investment. A few are saying what a great investment it is, but give no facts or evidence. They just keep saying "Invest and make money. If you don't invest money, you will miss out." Someone mentioned a ponzi scheme earlier, and I'm not saying it is a ponzi scheme, but the people who invest in it sound just like people who have invested in a ponzi scheme. They just look for other people to put in more money so they make more money. They don't explain the product behind the investment, how it can sustain growth, or even what your investment is really getting you. Just put more money in and you'll make money. I don't know how many people have asked me in the past to just join their company to become a partner in whatever it was they were doing. It was basically a new variation of a ponzi scheme, but find ways to make them legal or sound like an actual business. This reminds me so much of that. It all just sounds like an investment in hype. The responses are generally so sarcastic and uninformed that it isn't worth my time. Bitcoin has characteristics of money but from a mathematical approach instead of a physical one. It is transparent, yet pseudo-anonymous, unchangeable, and secure. Does it have faults? Sure. A lot of those faults are likely temporary though. There are a lot of other crypto currencies. A few are good and most are ****coins. Outside of a few it is difficult to tell which ones are legit as the entire crypto sphere is in its infancy. The crypto market is the wild west of markets. There is crazy money to be made but also crazy money to be lost, especially if you are inexperienced or naive. The world is transitioning to a token economy and faith in the ability of world governments to maintain the financial system will continue to wane at the same time as digital currencies continue to improve. It is the logical conclusion, be it right or wrong and it pretty much can't be stopped. Bitcoin=honey badger. Edited June 28, 2019 by sportjunkie07 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted June 28, 2019 Share Posted June 28, 2019 Sounds like a solid plan @sportjunkie07, let's switch off national currencies to crypto which rise and fall like a frat boi's johnson, that have zero basis in "value" other than perception. Imagine running a company using a crypto-currency, one day you're expanding your infrastructure and moving into new markets then next you're filing for bankruptcy all because some "influencer" tweeted that they thought your currency was old news. Sounds like a brilliant future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Excuses Posted June 28, 2019 Share Posted June 28, 2019 9 minutes ago, AsburySkinsFan said: Sounds like a solid plan @sportjunkie07, let's switch off national currencies to crypto which rise and fall like a frat boi's johnson, that have zero basis in "value" other than perception. Imagine running a company using a crypto-currency, one day you're expanding your infrastructure and moving into new markets then next you're filing for bankruptcy all because some "influencer" tweeted that they thought your currency was old news. Sounds like a brilliant future. It’s a solution in search of a problem. The problem with our financial system isn’t the currency and mode of the exchange. It’s the rules, or really the lack of, that have led to rampant corruption and risky undertakings. The irony is that the worst elements of our current financial system are enormously worse in the crypto sector. It is essentially a den of scam artists and there is little to no oversight, internal or external. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted June 28, 2019 Share Posted June 28, 2019 (edited) I don't have any issue with the idea that eventually that some cryptocurrency will become a major global form of currency. (the wealthy have too much of an interest in seeing it so that it is harder for governments to trace (and tax and regulate) transactions so I think there is a reasonable chance that'll be the case.) I'm dubious bitcoins will be the long term winner. If there was a way to broadly and long term way to invest in cryptocurrencies in general, I'd probably be interested (e.g. a crytopcurrency ETF). Investing in bitcoin seems like investing in Pets.com because eventually some internet based company is going to successfully sell pet supplies. Edited June 28, 2019 by PeterMP 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sportjunkie07 Posted June 28, 2019 Share Posted June 28, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, PeterMP said: I don't have any issue with the idea that eventually that some cryptocurrency will become a major global form of currency. (the wealthy have too much of an interest in seeing it so that it is harder for governments to trace (and tax and regulate) transactions so I think there is a reasonable chance that'll be the case.) I'm dubious bitcoins will be the long term winner. If there was a way to broadly and long term way to invest in cryptocurrencies in general, I'd probably be interested (e.g. a crytopcurrency ETF). Investing in bitcoin seems like investing in Pets.com because eventually some internet based company is going to successfully sell pet supplies. There will be an etf eventually; the demand is there. I think it comes down to lack of regulation and law concerning custody. The government is working on regulation. They can't really regulate bitcoin itself but they can regulate via ancillary means. That is being done currently. Many etfs have been denied so far. Edited June 28, 2019 by sportjunkie07 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sportjunkie07 Posted June 28, 2019 Share Posted June 28, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, AsburySkinsFan said: Sounds like a solid plan @sportjunkie07, let's switch off national currencies to crypto which rise and fall like a frat boi's johnson, that have zero basis in "value" other than perception. Imagine running a company using a crypto-currency, one day you're expanding your infrastructure and moving into new markets then next you're filing for bankruptcy all because some "influencer" tweeted that they thought your currency was old news. Sounds like a brilliant future. Stability should come with a large increase in market cap. Edited June 28, 2019 by sportjunkie07 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PleaseBlitz Posted June 28, 2019 Share Posted June 28, 2019 4 minutes ago, sportjunkie07 said: The government is working on regulation. They can't really regulate bitcoin itself but they can regulate via ancillary means. They're attempting that currently. Sure it can. The SEC treats virtual currencies like securities. https://www.sec.gov/news/public-statement/statement-clayton-2017-12-11 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sportjunkie07 Posted June 28, 2019 Share Posted June 28, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, PleaseBlitz said: Sure it can. The SEC treats virtual currencies like securities. https://www.sec.gov/news/public-statement/statement-clayton-2017-12-11 I meant that they can't really change the principles behind bitcoin. They can't change the interest rate or demand changes of bitcoin itself because bitcoin isnt accountable to the government and is decentralized. They can say certain coins are illegal to own and go after people that aren't following those guidelines. The can prosecute ceo's of crypto currencies for illicit behavior. They can prosecute or limit the effectiveness of exchanges without KYC. That link you posted is a year and a half old. They had a hearing about such things in Congress not too long after. I watched it live. The same guy you are talking about there said himself that bitcoin is not a security.. I mean come on dude. You are the one with a professional background in the finance arena. Your opinion should carry more weight and I should not be correcting you. This is exactly what I'm talking about when I say that most are uniformed and that even the professionals don't know what they're talking about. Edited June 28, 2019 by sportjunkie07 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PleaseBlitz Posted June 28, 2019 Share Posted June 28, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, sportjunkie07 said: The same guy you are talking about there said himself that bitcoin is not a security.. I mean come on dude. You are the one with a professional background in the finance arena. Your opinion should carry more weight and I should not be correcting you. You definitely are not correcting me. There is a difference between "bitcoin" and "virtual currencies." My post said "The SEC treats virtual currencies like securities. " Bitcoin is one specific virtual currency, but there are many virtual currencies. Bitcoin is a special case because of how it was released and who released it. What he said was that things that operate as currency are not securities. Few people actually use virtual currencies as a medium of exchange. Bitcoin specifically is a bit different given that it was released over time, not all at once like almost all of the other ones, and there isn't some corporate entity that released it. But for the rest of the virtual currencies, they were released by some entity in an initial coin offering for the purpose of making the releasing entity a bunch of money ("tokens"). The SEC cracks down on these on a regular basis. People trade virtual all the time to take advantage of (or get bitten by) the changes in value, and those things are released in initial offerings by whatever new entity decides they want to release a new virtual currency. That's a security, and the SEC treats them as such. Here is what he actually said. Quote It's a complicated area. Because, as you said, there are different types of cryptoassets. Let me try and divide them into two areas. A pure medium of exchange, the one that's most often cited, is Bitcoin. As a replacement for currency, that has been determined by most people to not be a security. Then there are tokens, which are used to finance projects. I've been on the record saying there are very few, there's none that I've seen, tokens that aren't securities. To the extent something is a security, we should regulate it as a security, and our securities regulations are disclosure-based, and people should follow those and provide the information that we require. You are correct in saying that the government would have a hard time regulating "bitcoin itself" as in "bitcoin as a concept." But it can easily regulate investors who want to invest in bitcoin, or anyone that wants to buy bitcoin or other virtual currencies, which gets to the same result. Edited June 28, 2019 by PleaseBlitz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sportjunkie07 Posted June 28, 2019 Share Posted June 28, 2019 (edited) 39 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said: You definitely are not correcting me. There is a difference between "bitcoin" and "virtual currencies." My post said "The SEC treats virtual currencies like securities. " Bitcoin is one specific virtual currency, but there are many virtual currencies. Bitcoin is a special case because of how it was released and who released it. What he said was that things that operate as currency are not securities. Few people actually use virtual currencies as a medium of exchange. Bitcoin specifically is a bit different given that it was released over time, not all at once like almost all of the other ones, and there isn't some corporate entity that released it. But for the rest of the virtual currencies, they were released by some entity in an initial coin offering for the purpose of making the releasing entity a bunch of money. The SEC cracks down on these on a regular basis. People trade virtual all the time to take advantage of (or get bitten by) the changes in value, and those things are released in initial offerings by whatever new entity decides they want to release a new virtual currency. That's a security, and the SEC treats them as such. Here is what he actually said. You are correct in saying that the government would have a hard time regulating "bitcoin itself" as in "bitcoin as a concept." But it can easily regulate investors who want to invest in bitcoin, which gets to the same result. You enveloped bitcoin along with other "virtual currencies" when they are being treated differently. I believe ethereum is not being labeled as a security either. Thats over 50% of the entire crypto market. I'm not going to argue further about who corrected who because the proof is literally a few posts above. The main point of that whole hearing was to target fraudulent activity, specifically ICOs that were not adhering to regulations. The aforementioned were considered by definition as securitites. Fast forward a year and a half and many of those ICOs have disappeared. New coins either go through the regulatory process or are banned from use by US citizens. The US government is attacking exchanges in a similar way, specifically those that lack KYC and allow the trade of what they deem as a security that had not been properly regulated. It seems we agree for the most part, except I think bitcoin will be harder to regulate via ancillary means because it can be purchased off exchange, moved psuedo anonymously, and stored very safely. Even our government will struggle to control that. Edited June 28, 2019 by sportjunkie07 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PleaseBlitz Posted June 28, 2019 Share Posted June 28, 2019 33 minutes ago, sportjunkie07 said: You enveloped bitcoin along with other "virtual currencies" when they are being treated differently. I believe ethereum is not being labeled as a security either. Thats over 50% of the entire crypto market. I'm not going to argue further about who corrected who because the proof is literally a few posts above. The main point of that whole hearing was to target fraudulent activity, specifically ICOs that were not adhering to regulations. The aforementioned were considered by definition as securitites. Fast forward a year and a half and many of those ICOs have disappeared. New coins either go through the regulatory process or are banned from use by US citizens. The US government is attacking exchanges in a similar way, specifically those that lack KYC and allow the trade of what they deem as a security that had not been properly regulated. It seems we agree for the most part, except I think bitcoin will be harder to regulate via ancillary means because it can be purchased off exchange, moved psuedo anonymously, and stored very safely. Even our government will struggle to control that. I did use bitcoin as a catch-all term for virtual currencies in an earlier post when the distinction was less important, so sorry for that. I'm not sure what specific hearing you are talking about, but I worked at the SEC when virtual currencies were becoming a thing. The SEC is certainly targeting fraudulent activity, but that's how it works for all securities. The SEC regulates the market and monitors activity, specifically the part of the SEC I worked in, the Office of Market Intelligence, then they (the Market Abuse section of the Division of Enforcement) targets the people that are breaking the rules, much of which is fraudulent activity. They are still cracking down on people, because fraud will continue to happen as long as people think they can break the rules and get away with it, which they always will. Plus, the whole system is based on adhering to a disclosure regime. The coins that just release their offerings and didn't bother to follow the rules got shut down or shut down on their own because they were just fly by night operations with no ability to comply with the rules, which are complex and expensive to deal with. That's like, how regulation works. So I guess I'm just not understanding why you are saying that there is difficulty regulating virtual currencies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sportjunkie07 Posted June 28, 2019 Share Posted June 28, 2019 (edited) 18 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said: I did use bitcoin as a catch-all term for virtual currencies in an earlier post when the distinction was less important, so sorry for that. I'm not sure what specific hearing you are talking about, but I worked at the SEC when virtual currencies were becoming a thing. The SEC is certainly targeting fraudulent activity, but that's how it works for all securities. The SEC regulates the market and monitors activity, specifically the part of the SEC I worked in, the Office of Market Intelligence, then they (the Market Abuse section of the Division of Enforcement) targets the people that are breaking the rules, much of which is fraudulent activity. They are still cracking down on people, because fraud will continue to happen as long as people think they can break the rules and get away with it, which they always will. Plus, the whole system is based on adhering to a disclosure regime. The coins that just release their offerings and didn't bother to follow the rules got shut down or shut down on their own because they were just fly by night operations with no ability to comply with the rules, which are complex and expensive to deal with. That's like, how regulation works. So I guess I'm just not understanding why you are saying that there is difficulty regulating virtual currencies. I agree. I don't even have beef with the SEC as I think they are mostly trying to create a fair market, but I strongly disagree with the US government wanting to be able to trace all crypto movement.. it's none of their business knowing how much i have and where/what I'm spending it on. And Im not saying that they will have difficulty regulating all currencies. I'm saying that they will have difficulty regulating bitcoin, because as you mentioned, it lacks a company or single person behind it.. unlike ripple or other digital currencies. This decentralized nature is part of what makes it special. Thats why i say Bitcoin itself can't really be controlled. Though as we have both mentioned, steps are being taken to control bitcoin via other means. I think these steps will be prove ineffective longterm. It's seems you disagree but I can understand your reasoning. Edited June 28, 2019 by sportjunkie07 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PleaseBlitz Posted June 28, 2019 Share Posted June 28, 2019 16 minutes ago, sportjunkie07 said: I agree. I don't even have beef with the SEC as I think they are mostly trying to create a fair market, but I strongly disagree with the US government wanting to be able to trace all crypto movement.. it's none of their business knowing how much i have and where/what I'm spending it on. I gotcha. Yea, I'm somewhat torn. The US government already keeps tabs on all large or out of the ordinary bank transactions, that's the Bank Secrecy Act/Anti-Money Laundering rules, but I see no need to monitor day to day activity. 16 minutes ago, sportjunkie07 said: And Im not saying that they will have difficulty regulating all currencies. I'm saying that they will have difficulty regulating bitcoin, because as you mentioned, it lacks a company or single person behind it.. unlike ripple or other digital currencies. This decentralized nature is part of what makes it special. Thats why i say Bitcoin itself can't really be controlled. Though as we have both mentioned, steps are being taken to control bitcoin via other means. I think these steps will be prove ineffective longterm. It's seems you disagree but I can understand your reasoning. I don't necessarily disagree, I think that regulations (for all areas) tend to be a decade behind the emergence of new issues/activities/technologies, so this isn't much different. As of right now, I don't see virtual currencies becoming much more than they are now, niche tokens to trade and an interesting concept to talk about. I don't think they will ever become systemically important currencies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sportjunkie07 Posted June 28, 2019 Share Posted June 28, 2019 (edited) 53 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said: I gotcha. Yea, I'm somewhat torn. The US government already keeps tabs on all large or out of the ordinary bank transactions, that's the Bank Secrecy Act/Anti-Money Laundering rules, but I see no need to monitor day to day activity. I don't necessarily disagree, I think that regulations (for all areas) tend to be a decade behind the emergence of new issues/activities/technologies, so this isn't much different. As of right now, I don't see virtual currencies becoming much more than they are now, niche tokens to trade and an interesting concept to talk about. I don't think they will ever become systemically important currencies. Yeah that's a topic by itself. I get what those laws are trying to accomplish but it should be a right of people to have privacy concerning their money imo. I am generally very against the idea of we take your rights away to protect you from X. Hence there are some crypto's that are filling that niche. I disagree on your second paragraph regarding what they can become. There are some very interesting projects out there. I am a big fan of food traceability coupled with blockchain for example. I like the idea of using a cryptocurrency to revolutionize the distribution and payment for content creation. There is just too much that cryptocurrency can revolutionize in ways we haven't thought of yet. Edited June 28, 2019 by sportjunkie07 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sportjunkie07 Posted July 3, 2019 Share Posted July 3, 2019 Btc holding near 11k. A lot of people rightfully scared from the past year and a half. Seems to me that we are consolidating at the beginning of a bull market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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