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    • By JimmiJo in ES Coverage
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      ES Coverage: Giants vs Redskins 
       
      12/9/18
       
      DEFEAT!!!
       
      Giants 40 - Redskins 16
       
      Greetings friends, JimmiJo here, and I am joined by my shivering partner, Spaceman Spiff. Together we will bring you this all important NFC East divisional matchup between the Washington Redskins and New York Giants.
       
      When I was last with you the Redskins had command of the division and there was optimism to spare. Since, devastating injuries to quarterbacks, linemen, and cornerbacks has left this team losers in 4-of-5 contests.
       
      But there is still everything to play for, and if they can manage a victory today and the Eagles to the same Washington will once again have a share of the lead.
       
      I can dream can't I?
       
      On paper, the future looks grim. A continued collapse will start the questions about the future of personnel and perhaps leadership. Yes, we can certainly point to injuries as the primary reason the team is struggling. But the record earlier in the year was masking some issues with the squad. No real arial threat. An inconsistent running game. And a defense that has been anything but consistent.
       
      But these are questions for another time. Today, it is just two teams looking for a win.
       
      See you at the half.
       
      Follow along on Twitter @Skinscast 
       
      Inactives
       
      The Redskins declared the following players as inactive:
      o   No. 12 QB Colt McCoy
      o   No. 32 RB Samaje Perine
      o   No. 46 RB Kapri Bibbs
      o   No. 52 LB Ryan Anderson
      o   No. 63 C Demetrius Rhaney
      o   No. 66 G Tony Bergstrom
      o   No. 99 DL Caleb Brantley
       
      JimmiJo
       
      I was happy to see players like Josh Johnson and Byron Marshall in the game. The marquee guys did not earn the right to play following the disastrous first half. It was historically bad.
       
      Never before had the Washington Redskins trailed by as much as the 34-0 deficit they entertained today at the half.
       
      I remarked to one of the writers that in 13-seasons I had never seen this team so outplayed as today. The offense led by Mark Sanchez was throw-up in mouth bad. At no point did you feel like they would or could score.
       
      I tweeted before the game that it is time for Daniel Snyder to replaced head coach Jay Gruden. Yes injuries are the headline. But the offense was poor before the injuries.
       
      No aerial threat and an inconsistent rushing. They only seemed to score 20-points per game.
       
      What they did do well was hold on to the ball. And the defense was a takeover machine the first half of the year.
      But turnovers tend to even out.
       
      So I was more than glad to see those ‘backups’ play. All they did was show they should have been playing in the first half.
       
      Especially Johnson. Take a look at your Redskins’ starter the rest of the way. From his first snap the offense looked different. There was energy. There was life.
       
      And there was threat.
       
      Johnson played with more command, accuracy and imagination than Mark Sanchez. He looked much more the accomplished quarterback.
       
      A word on Josh Doctson. You are an idiot. Without the stupid penalty you are not letting the safety out-position you to make the pick with 5-minutes left.
       
      Following this game, staring at the standings and considering possible scenarios for getting in the playoffs is fools’ gold. It is all about assessing who it worth keeping for next year.
       
      I don’t believe head coach Jay Gruden is going to make the list. Nor should he. He has had nore than enough time to do something here. He had Kirk Cousins’ starting over 3-full seasons.
       
      He had his chance.
       
      I tweeted before the game team owner Daniel Snyder should let Gruden go and bring in Mike McCarthy. Washington Post writer (and friend) Rick Snider made a great counterpoint to that idea:
       
      “Why would McCarthy want to come here? He has better options,” he said.
       
      That sure feels like the truth. And if so, it may explain why Gruden is fast becoming one of the most tenured coaches in the league.
       
      This was my last game for this season. I would like to thank Extremeskins and the team for the opportunity this year. I will see you guys next year.
       
      Let me go on the record now and say I do not think Jay Gruden's position here is secure. Not with the likes of Mike McCarthy available.
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Dissident2

Anyone here who lived through 50s/60s years? Comparisons to now?

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So we were awful for a good 20+ years through the 50s and 60s. We had two winning seasons in the 50s and exactly 1 in the 60s, which was 1969 (better late than never).  It took Lombardi himself to do that for us. 

 

The losing aura started in '49, actually:

49: 4-7-1

50: 3-9

51: 5-7

52: 4-8

53: 6-5-1

54: 3-9

55: 8-4

56: 6-6

57: 5-6-1

58: 4-7-1

59: 3-9

60: 1-9-2

61: 1-12-1

62: 5-7-2

63: 3-11

64: 6-8

65: 6-8

66: 7-7

67: 5-6-3

68: 5-9

69: 7-5-2

70: 6-8

 

That stretch represents the efforts of 9 head coaches. 

 

Then, in '71, George Allen arrived and gave us 7 straight winning seasons, a Super Bowl berth, and, despite not being able to win much in the postseason, set the stage for the "Glory Days" to come with Gibbs and returned us to a proud franchise. 

 

I'm curious if anyone here is old enough to remember those days. If so, what was the fanbase like in the midst of all that? Was there the kind of apathy we're seeing today? I realize we were hardly in a "digital age" back then, so a lot would be different in how the team was covered, how much info was available, etc., but was there disdain for the owner, George Preston Marshall, at that point? What were some of the feelings at that time about how the team was being run? 

 

I realize there probably aren't many here who can answer these questions based on first-hand experience, but I'm just looking for some comparisons to the present. I feel like the current stretch we're in - which began in '93 really - is possibly even worse than those two awful decades. At the very least, it's certainly comparable. Just looking to see if there are any common threads that might lead to any reasons for hope in the hopefully near future ...

 

Of note is that GPM died in 1969. When he was gone, things started to change. If new ownership is the only thing that can fix this team, which may well be the case, then maybe there is no hope on the horizon. 

 

Still, I'd be curious to hear any knowledge from any of you Older-than-me-timers out there. 

Edited by Dissident2
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Dissident, be curious to see if you get any responses. But another factor to consider is that I don't think the NFL was nearly as popular then as it is now. I think the popularity explosion started in the 1970s.

 

One stat that I saw today that jumped out. In the past 18 seasons. the Skins have had one season, 2008, where they had 7+ wins after 12 games.

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1 hour ago, hail2skins said:

Dissident, be curious to see if you get any responses.

 

Yeah, a longshot, I know, but maybe someone out there has heard stories from parents/grandparents, etc. It seems like the team goes through these long stretches of both extremes. When they started, they won the championship their very first year here and were among the league's best before descending into that first 20 year abyss. Then they became one of the best for another 20 years, and now here we are in the abyss again. Something's gotta give. Or maybe not. 

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My parents lived in DC for part of that period. Redskins were very popular, based on what they said. Senators were a joke and had no attendance, but Skins were one of the more popular teams in the league.

 

My sense is that the modern narrative about George Preston Marshall is more negative than the widespread impression at the time.

 

Snyder may not be a great owner, but at least he's not a cheapskate like Marshall was.

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I was born in 1961 and I use to watch the Redskins with my dad who was a huge Redskins fan. He use to tell me that they had great offenses during that time but bad coach and terrible ownership mostly because George Preston Marshall was a cheapskate. When Jack Kent Cooke bought the team then the team started to win and be a competitor. Cooke spent money and made good investments in players and coaches that made sense. The greatest accomplishment and best thing Cooke did was hire Joe Gibbs and Bobby Beathard and Charlie Casserly after that. Cooke was well respect and had smart FO people running the team. Snyder's problem is that he didn't know anything about running a NFL franchise and has made bad FO decisions. Cerrato was hired because he was in the room with Bill Walsh when they put together the San Francisco 49ers roster that won several Super Bowls. He never made any of the good decisions. Allen was hired because of his Father, George Allen and his time as the Tampa Bay GM during the time Tony Dungy was building that team. Allen is better than Cerrato but is just as bad as a HC evaluator as Cerrato. The Redskins during the 50's and 60's had a lot of good players and were tough, disciplined players, from what my dad told me, but lacked the resources to make them competitive year in and year out. 

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@Oldfan is the only one I've read mentioning Sammy Baugh.

I thought the reason the GPM teams were so bad was because he refused to sign or draft black players, not because he was cheap (just going off what I've read).

Edward Bennett Williams started to turn things around after he bought the team - first hiring Lombardi, and a few years later George Allen. He famously said of Allen, "I gave George Allen an unlimited budget, and within two weeks he exceeded it."

Edited by Riggo-toni

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I became a fan of the Redskins because of the "little general." I knew the team stunk but I did not care as long as Eddie L did good. There was very little football on TV back then so you only got the Giants game so you never saw the Redskins until the Giants played them. I lived in the NY area and we used to go to a few of Giants games but I hated them so much I can remember jumping for joy when Alan Amache scored giving the Colts the championship over the Giants in 58. I loved seeing the bald eagle getting his butt kicked by the Bears in 63 championship game.  All this did not help my Redskins but I still had my Yanks to fall back on. In the 50's and 60's we stunk. Then like a gift from heaven we got Lombardi and for the first time in my life I started caring if the Redskins won or not. Of course it did not last long for the eternally loosing Redskins as Lombardi died. Then GHA  arrived and the years he was here were the most enjoyable of all the years. I remember he beat the Giants like 10 straight times at least. I loved watching my Giant fan friends suffer. The Giant players even said they would not shave that year until they beat the Skins. Well they all had beards as they still could not beat Gearge. Fun times. Of course the JJG years were great. Now it seams the Redskins have morphed into a 2nd rate outfit. Seems to me it all started with the drafting of D Howard. I told my son we just wasted a draft choice. Then we get what was supposed to be a great receiver and I see him standing around with a brace on his leg. Are you kidding me? Who drafts a WR with a bad knee. It seemed to get worse from there. Trading the farm for a gimmick QB, WTF, and you wonder why we stink? Now we are getting blown out by teams that are 500 or worse and it is taking a toll. Even in the late 50's or 60's I cannot remember being this bad, prob because we had Sonny. Lousy coaches like Jay and Zorn and that clown from the pukes and really bad assistants, inept gm's and stupid draft choices. The last 20 years or so have been a test for sure. I still watch every game and hope for the best but I honestly think we are not a valid franchise anymore and we are more like the Browns. I know before a big game we will lose and if by some fluke we win I am surprised. I never remember this amount of injuries in the old days. We need a strong leader to turn us around or this team will continue to stink for years to come. 

Edited by 50yrSKINSfan
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Well, the team's records were less than stellar, but at least we had the sweet pleasure of only allowing "proper" athletes on the squad.

 

That's a joke. I was born in 1973.

 

The team stunk, because it wouldn't allow black players. Next question.

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I didn't live during the Dark Ages (10th-11th Century AD) with the Plagues, fall of Western Civilization and worse....

 

But I think that being a Redskins fan today is what it was like...

plague.jpg?itok=CxLsn4uD

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19 hours ago, Tsailand said:

Summoning @Veryoldschool to the thread.

 

I've got a couple years on veryoldschool as a fan and I guess 1 year on oldfan, and it was very frustrating in the 60's for me but not as sad and hopeless. The thing is for anyone of my age or older (and offhand i don't know any well-known  posters here older than the group we've mentioned), you have to allow for the different stage of development one would be in back then vs. now.

 

I labeled myself a Redskin fan when I was 6 for a few reasons (one was my own positive kid-concept of "native american warriors") as my team above all other interests in other teams, of which i had plenty. I loved the game.  So not only were the times different, but so was I, and such comparisons will be filtered through really different lenses even aside the difference in the game/society or team's accumulated history up to this point of the 'snyder era'.

 

This seems worse to me now, but I'm not a kid or a teenager either. For one thing I never had such strong negative takes on a Redskins figure (other than cooke, who was more removed) that i identified as a major obstacle to success year after year like dan. And he's a constant, usually unsympathetic/not very likable, figure at the top each disappointing season. Nor did I live in the suck so fully via constant media and conversations on it. I also think the team losing so much was offset somewhat for me by the more wild-west ups and downs of many teams in the still-growing and relatively new sport. Fewer dynasties to lord superiority over you etc.

 

And while smack-talking, braggadocio, and rivalry have always been part of sports since the beginning, I want to say it wasn't as "bad" (voluminous/stupid) before the kind of uber-dumbassery keyboard warriors brought to the internet and the birth of trolling. The stupid/insulting/crazy wasn't so common or so in your face so much. In 3D people tended to get shut down for being that way too much. The good news is now everyone has a voice and often a megaphone. That's also the bad news.  I hated dealing with cooke's legacy as a young fan in the 60's (or now), and that was a big negative to me. The single worst game/Redskin event for me was the SB blowout by the Raiders. But I'd say the worst times I've had over a long stretch are the ones since snyder.

 

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This is something I’ve brought up many times... when people discuss the “once proud” Redskins franchise they are really only talking about an approx 20 year stretch under two head coaches (with a small break with Pardee in between). As displayed in the OP our 25 years prior to Allen were actually worse on the field than the 25 years we are experiencing now. So out of 70 years of Redskins football, more than 2/3 have been pretty terrible. 

 

I really think one thing that has held us back is the QB position. You can make a pretty strong argument that the best QB in franchise history is the one who was here back when the team arrived in DC in 1937. A transcendent QB would go a long way in solving our issues. 

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1 hour ago, kleese said:

This is something I’ve brought up many times... when people discuss the “once proud” Redskins franchise they are really only talking about an approx 20 year stretch under two head coaches (with a small break with Pardee in between). As displayed in the OP our 25 years prior to Allen were actually worse on the field than the 25 years we are experiencing now. So out of 70 years of Redskins football, more than 2/3 have been pretty terrible. 

 

I really think one thing that has held us back is the QB position. You can make a pretty strong argument that the best QB in franchise history is the one who was here back when the team arrived in DC in 1937. A transcendent QB would go a long way in solving our issues. 

 

Great point...we were very good in the infancy of the NFL (when there was, by my count, one other team in the league....the Bears) and then very good again for the 1970s and 1980s (bled slightly into the 1990s). Outside of that, we are nothing special at all. 

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45 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

Great point...we were very good in the infancy of the NFL (when there was, by my count, one other team in the league....the Bears) and then very good again for the 1970s and 1980s (bled slightly into the 1990s). Outside of that, we are nothing special at all. 

 

Yep, our history is far weaker than that of the Cowboys or Giants... or to a certain extent even the Eagles. What we have though is the Gibbs era. It was a very high-high. Because as nice as it was to see a winning team during the Allen years the Redskins were certainly not "special" during the 70's. They were a solid, competitive team, but still only made one SB appearance (a loss of course) during the decade. Without the Gibbs years we are absolutely one of the worst franchises in the history of the NFL. Luckily, we had him and that era sustains us as a franchise that once had glory years for real. 

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8 minutes ago, kleese said:

 

Yep, our history is far weaker than that of the Cowboys or Giants... or to a certain extent even the Eagles. What we have though is the Gibbs era. It was a very high-high. Because as nice as it was to see a winning team during the Allen years the Redskins were certainly not "special" during the 70's. They were a solid, competitive team, but still only made one SB appearance (a loss of course) during the decade. Without the Gibbs years we are absolutely one of the worst franchises in the history of the NFL. Luckily, we had him and that era sustains us as a franchise that once had glory years for real. 

 

We are closest to a team like the 49ers. Middling or bad for much of our history, but we have one era where we really took advantage of our success and racked up a lot of titles. We actually have two of those eras, but they are separated by 50 years. 

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5 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

We are closest to a team like the 49ers. Middling or bad for much of our history, but we have one era where we really took advantage of our success and racked up a lot of titles. We actually have two of those eras, but they are separated by 50 years. 

 

Niners kept theirs rolling longer than we did... won the SB in 1994 and stayed at least a fringe SB contender throughout the entire 90's. They even had a decent run with Garcia.... the big difference would be that they had another big surge under Harbaugh/Kap. It ended pretty quickly, but that was a pretty good peak they reached. Prior to Walsh/Montana though, Niners were a pretty lousy franchise. 

 

I think the Dolphins are a pretty good parallel for the Redskins. 

Edited by kleese

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1 minute ago, kleese said:

 

Niners kept theirs rolling longer than we did... won the SB in 1994 and stayed at least a fringe SB contender throughout the entire 90's. They even had a decent run with Garcia.... the big difference would be that they had another big surge under Harbaugh/Kap. It ended pretty quickly, but that was a pretty good peak they reached. Prior to Walsh/Montana though, Niners were a pretty lousy franchise. 

 

Right, not a perfect comp but the closest comparison I can think of. You could argue that their second spurt was closer to our George Allen era (good and contenders with a SB appearance) while their Bill Walsh/George Seifert run was like our Gibbs run (multiple titles and runs). 

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Great responses, thanks.

 

I have a book on Redskins history that came out in the 90s. There's a section called "The Decline Begins," and it struck me how eerily similar some of the issues are between then and now. Here are a few quotes that really stood out:

 

"During that long, dark, dreary hiatus, the Redskins would experience only four seasons in which they won more games than they lost ..."

 

The story of the "meddlesome owner" is all-too familiar:

"Coach Dudley DeGroot, after posting a record of 14-5-1 in his two yaers at the helm and leading the Skins to the NFL title game in 1945, abandoned ship as well. With DeGroot, Marshall had been at his most meddlesome, and the telephone from Marshall's booth to the sideline was ordinarily as busy as that of most bookmakers. As DeGroot explained later, 'I couldn't stay on as a coach of the Redskins and keep my self-respect. Marshall took too many privileges. I found myself head coach in name only." 

 

Getting rid of good players who'd come back to haunt us or succeed elsewhere:

"Also gone was QB Frank Filchock, traded by Marshall to the Giants. Filchock would evince his deep sense of ingratitude to Marshall by turning in an All-Pro season, leading the Giants to the NFL East title and humiliating the Redskins 31-0 in the last game of the regular season."

 

"In 1948, the Redskins bestowed on the Giants a gift that made their previous offering of Filchock seem a mere pittance. Washington traded the draft rights to the great passing QB Charlie Conerly for defensive back Howie Livingston. Conerly went on to lead the Giants for the next 12 years, setting a slew of team passing records along the way."

 

A promising QB draft pick failing due to injury his rookie season:

"The Redskins did, however, draft an outstanding college QB in Harry Gilmer from Alabama, but he suffered a severe leg injury his rookie year that hampered his play over the five years of his career in Washington." 

 

Winning 'Off the Field':

"After the season, Marshall, when asked if the year had any highlights, remarked, 'One comes to mind: when the band was invited to the Philadelphia Enquirer's music festival and played on the same stage as Paul WHiteman and Fred Waring and their bands." 

 

Getting past-their-prime, once-great players:

"Marshall brought in all-pro halfback Billy Dudley to Washington in a trade [with the Lions]. Dudley had been coveted by Marshall since the days when The Big Chief used to watch him play at the University of Virginia. The Bullet was a fine runner, kicker and kick returner, but he was also approaching the age of 30 and been in the league since 1942.

 

Ego-overload owner

The aforementioned title Marshall loved: "The Big Chief." Little Danny always having to be referenced as "Mister Snyder." 

 

Interestingly, nothing changed at all for the team until Marshall began to fade into the background because of health issues. Not that it's any sort of shocker here, but I think there's a pretty common thread in all this: ownership matters and definitely can affect a team's performance depending on the level of suck and meddling that owner inflicts on his franchise. 

 

 

Edited by Dissident2
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My Granddad went to many games from the early 40's on.  And even saw Sammy Baugh play live many times. The Skins were popular even when they lost. We went to games together when I was a young child in the 70's. Also a lot of Orioles games but that is another topic. I remember RFK being full ALWAYS. Of course going to a pro game was affordable then. You could pack a cooler with a lunch and drinks and bring it into the stadium with you. And the tickets were cheap because the players werent making millions of dollars. A lot has changed about the entire NFL experience IMO. And not a lot of those changes are good thing.

Edited by clskinsfan
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28 minutes ago, clskinsfan said:

A lot has changed about the entire NFL experience IMO. And not a lot of those changes are good thing.

 

Yep. Chalk up another one for greed. It all started going downhill for me when FA hit. I used to love the days when you could really bond with the players on your team because you knew they'd be there for a decade, and they also became more like the fans, because they'd grow to hate the same teams/players we hated. When stadiums started getting corporate names was another skidmark moment, imo. You'd hear "RFK", "Veteran's Stadium," "Texas Stadium," etc., and you'd get chills. "FedEx Field"? "M&T Bank"? Yeah, not so much. I also remember when there were maybe three commercials AT MOST during a TV break, and the screen wasn't covered in every conceivable graphic known to mankind. I still love the game at its core, but it's getting pretty damn near impossible to watch. 

 

image.png.0b3de64c971033eb6558600da4b0dbfd.png

Edited by Dissident2
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43 minutes ago, clskinsfan said:

You could pack a cooler with a lunch and drinks and bring it into the stadium with you. And the tickets were cheap because the players werent making millions of dollars. 

 

That's an awesome visual honestly...the game on the field was the central point to both the fans and the owner/team. I don't think we as a people have become more selfish or greedy though, so I wonder if the fan-friendly aspects of the 1960s and 1970s was simply just because that's all they could enforce at the time. What I mean is, if people had to pay $3 for a burger and $2 for a Coke back then, would they have? 

 

The NFL blew up in terms of popularity right around or after that timeframe you highlighted. I think, for the most part, owners began charging what they did for tickets, concessions, etc. because they could. You always charge what the market dictates. 

 

Now, what's interesting to me is that we might be seeing this ebb a little with how popular the game has become on TV. Smaller, more intimate venues and more perks are probably the future of the in-person game day experience. 

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5 hours ago, kleese said:

This is something I’ve brought up many times... when people discuss the “once proud” Redskins franchise they are really only talking about an approx 20 year stretch under two head coaches (with a small break with Pardee in between). As displayed in the OP our 25 years prior to Allen were actually worse on the field than the 25 years we are experiencing now. So out of 70 years of Redskins football, more than 2/3 have been pretty terrible. 

 

I really think one thing that has held us back is the QB position. You can make a pretty strong argument that the best QB in franchise history is the one who was here back when the team arrived in DC in 1937. A transcendent QB would go a long way in solving our issues. 

We had good QBs in the 60s. Eddie L was real good and Sonny was the best QB in the league. Lombardi said if he had Sonny in Green Bay he would have never lost a game. Even when we got Joe T George did not play him, he played Kilmer instead. If George had Sonny in SB7, even at his age, imo, we would have won. We had some bad luck with Vince dying. He would have won a few SB in DC if he lived. In the 70s the power house teams Miami, Pitt, Oak had great defenses. That's how they won. I remember the high powered Chargers went into Pitt in a playoff game and they got their clocks cleaned by their D. Even Terry Bradshaw wife said the Steelers would be great if they had a QB.  Green Bay, Giants, Rams and Balt in the 60s all had a great D. Dallas had doomsday. One thing they all seemed to have was balance. It was not until GHA got here did we start to have a good balanced team.

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 I was born in 1964. The very first Super Bowl that I have memories of was Super Bowl VII. I remember the big debate between Sonny Jurgensen and Billy Kilmer. I was on Sonny Jurgensen's side because He was from my Hometown of Wilmington, NC. He went to New Hanover High School with my Parents. He was in my Mom's English class and use to tell her that pretty little things come in pretty little packages. He use to tease her that he would dip her hair in the Ink well. My mom said she said if you do that you will draw back a stub. My Mom said she was the only girl that did not have a crush on Sonny and thought he was a big clown. My mom said on the last day of their Senior year he asked if he  could sign her Senior year book. She told him to go ahead if he wanted. My Mom passed away over 2 and a half years ago. I have that Yearbook with Sonny's signature.

 

My Family has other connections with famous pro athletes. My Uncle went to New Hanover High School with Roman Gabriel the Rams QB. I went to New Hanover with Clyde Simmons of the Eagles. He was a better High School Basketball Player. Kenny Gattison also was my Classmate. he was a pro basketball player with the Charlotte Hornets. He was a better Football player. My Uncle David was Michael Jordan's assistant principal in Junior high. He caught Michael Jordan skipping his 7th period class and was shooting Basketball instead. My Uncle asked why and he said he couldn't fight off the urge to play ball. My Uncle made him promise never to skip class again and shot Basketball with him and called it individualized PE class instruction. He told me a couple of years later to thank my Uncle for him. He said that if he had been charged with skipping class he would have not received the Basketball scholarship from Carolina. I also went to College with Brian Rowsom who also played pro basketball with the Charlotte Hornets. I met "The Admiral" David Robinson who played for Navy and then for the spurs. He was a freshman when he needed directions to the Gym at UNCW and I was able to show him. 

 

I was able to see the great years with Coach George Allen and Coach Joe Gibbs years. I was very fortunate to see the Golden Age of the Redskins. 

Edited by Gallen5862
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