Starting QB 2019???

[Skin'emAlive]

58 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

How is the equivalent of a 2nd rounder for Rosen giving up the farm? The poster earlier who talked about giving up our 1st gave the caveat that we also get Arizona's 2nd. And with Haskins you want us to trade up for him? If so, you're ok with actually giving up the farm to move up for Haskins who has some good skills but who also has some question marks and is a one year wonder? 

 

Ive never advocated trading up for Haskins. In fact, ive been pretty vocal about trading down and drafting Will Grier in the bottom of the 2nd or with our first pick in the 3rd. However, If Haskins falls past 6, it would be in our own best interests to look into trading up for him. Im not ok trading up to NYJ to draft Haskins.

 

Almost all quarterbacks are one-year wonders in college. Kyler Murray was Baker Mayfield's backup 2 years ago...

 

I dont agree with trading a first to a team that has a guy they have no future plans with. We can get a much better deal trading down with the #15 pick than trading for Rosen. Teams like Indianapolis, New England, Houston, Kansas City all have extra day 2 and 3 picks that we could pick up just by swapping our #15.

 

12 hours ago, SemperFi Skins said:

 

By all accounts last years QB class was much better than this year. Rosen being the 4th qb speaks to the talent taken last year. Similar to what people think next years class will be with Tua/Fromm and then of course Lawrence in 2021. 

 

Not a good comparison IMO

 

side note: I had Rosen and Darnold tied for second best qb in the draft last year behind Mayfield

 

There has NEVER been a qb class in any year that has produced more than 3 star-quality quarterbacks. It has never happened. Baker is a star. Darnold is rising. and Josh Allen took a far inferior team with less "mechanics", no receivers, no healthy running backs, no tight ends, and a roster that had players retiring in the middle of a game to a better record than Rosen with with 2 of the best check-down receiving targets in the league, and the 4th overall wr taken in the draft.

 

I think Grier is a 2nd round quarterback. But that is only because there are so many great athletes available in the 1st, and the few teams that need a franchise quarterback also need top tier talent at the edge/lb position, which is almost as valuable as a quarterback now. (see Mack, Chicago). That being said, I think that Grier is the clear #3 best quarterback in this draft.

 

1 hour ago, mistertim said:

Rosen's footwork and mechanics overall were far superior to any QB in this class and he also came from a mostly pro style system. He was way more polished and NFL ready.

 

Pro style systems in college dont mean as much as they used to. Baker didnt play in a pro-style system. Kyler Murray and Grier both played in an air-raid style system. Mariota, Jackson, Newton, Griffin, etc. ran an RPO. Many others run the spread. The style of offense the quarterback runs in college is no longer that big of a deal as opposed to his poise, accuracy, confidence, pocket presence, and touch. If you can get a guy that can check off most of those boxes with consistency across an entire season in college, he is more than likely to be a quality pick in the draft.

 

[mistertim]

39 minutes ago, Skin'emAlive said:

 

Ive never advocated trading up for Haskins. In fact, ive been pretty vocal about trading down and drafting Will Grier in the bottom of the 2nd or with our first pick in the 3rd. However, If Haskins falls past 6, it would be in our own best interests to look into trading up for him. Im not ok trading up to NYJ to draft Haskins.

 

Almost all quarterbacks are one-year wonders in college. Kyler Murray was Baker Mayfield's backup 2 years ago...

 

I dont agree with trading a first to a team that has a guy they have no future plans with. We can get a much better deal trading down with the #15 pick than trading for Rosen. Teams like Indianapolis, New England, Houston, Kansas City all have extra day 2 and 3 picks that we could pick up just by swapping our #15.

 

I'm a bit confused. You say you've never advocated trading up for Haskins but then in your next sentence you advocate trading up for Haskins. I assume with the NYJ comment you mean you've not advocated trading up past a certain spot? If NYG is out of the running it might push Haskins down but it might not. Either way, moving up would still cost us a decent amount. I'm personally just not of the opinion that Haskins is worth it.

 

39 minutes ago, Skin'emAlive said:

Pro style systems in college dont mean as much as they used to. Baker didnt play in a pro-style system. Kyler Murray and Grier both played in an air-raid style system. Mariota, Jackson, Newton, Griffin, etc. ran an RPO. Many others run the spread. The style of offense the quarterback runs in college is no longer that big of a deal as opposed to his poise, accuracy, confidence, pocket presence, and touch. If you can get a guy that can check off most of those boxes with consistency across an entire season in college, he is more than likely to be a quality pick in the draft.

 

 

That's a fair point about college systems in general but my bigger point with Rosen as far as NFL readiness was more the mechanics and footwork aspect. No matter what college system a QB comes from he's almost guaranteed to need to improve his footwork and mechanics to suit the NFL game. Some guys have an easier time doing that than others. IMO that's one of the reasons RG3 failed...his footwork and mechanics never developed to suit the pro game. Coming out of college, Rosen's footwork was as close to 100% NFL ready as I've seen from any other prospect. That doesn't take away from his flaws, but it means that's one big thing that you wouldn't need to worry about as a question mark for college to pro transition.

[Skin'emAlive]

IMO great footwork and mechanics only mean something if you arent prone to make mistakes under pressure. Its the same reason I dont like Cousins as a franchise qb. He has good footwork and mechanics in the pocket, but when the pressure is on he tends to cough the football up or throw a bonehead pass.

 

As for the Haskins comment; ive never really entertained the thought that Haskins would fall any futher than the #3 pick in the draft. If he were to fall past NYG, then perhaps I would reconsider everything. But I really dont think that would ever happen.

[The Consigliere]

19 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

Outside of a rule change, Lawrence won't be available until the 2021 draft. He was a true freshman this past season. Next draft will be headlined by Tua, Fromm, and Herbert most likely. 

I know, it’s why I think I referred to him in the sense of tanking in ‘20. Too hard to project a tank w/this F.O. Inexplicably still in place.

[Burgold]

I’m strangely at peace with Case being our 2019 QB. I like overachievers. I think he deserved better as far being rewarded in Minnesota. I think he was the 2017 version of Trent Dilfer. 

 

The only worry I have is what happens if he proves worthy? If he does then we lose him on a one year rental. 

 

At any rate, I feel okay about giving Case the keys to the car and hope we don’t draft a QB using a number one or two pick. 

[The Consigliere]

19 hours ago, Skin'emAlive said:

I would be on the verge of quitting on this franchise if we traded our #1 for Rosen. He’s not that good. I was looking back at the 2018 draft thread and every criticism of Rosen came true last year. I’ve never seen a franchise bail on its cornerstone player 1 year in to his career like Arizona is doing with Rosen now.... and people want to trade the farm for that guy? That’s crazy. 

I mean think about this for a second. NY trading for Rosen means Haskins is available to one of maybe 4 teams : Miami, Denver, Cincinnati, and Washington. Why get in a bidding war for Rosen when NY acquiring him drops the price for Haskins? 

#1 because Rosen was/is a better QB prospect then Haskins. I don’t change Evals based on short sample size, especially when there is a mountain of exculpatory evidence for a poor season.

 

#2 Haskins, a inferior prospect in my view, will cost far more in draft capital to acquire. The extra year on a rookie deal is unlikely to be worth the cost of draft capital via trade up lost to invest in him.

[The Consigliere]

19 hours ago, LightningBuggs said:

 

I think many people are fascinated by the fact that he was a top ten pick and overlook the fact that not only was he not good last year, he wasn’t a stud in college either. 

 

Trading a 1st for him is an absolutely horrible idea. 

He was excellent in college. Not Andrew Luck awesome, but there’s a reason he was #1 or #2 on nearly everyone’s board in a loaded 2018 QB class his entire career until Mayfield and Darnold passed him in the ‘18 ore draft interview process where his personality hurt him the same way Bakers got absurd comparisons to Manziel in some quarters. 

[The Consigliere]

17 hours ago, Skin'emAlive said:

Rosen was the 4th! Qb chosen last year. Sure he was a top 10 pick. But there were 3 other teams needing a qb and they passed on him, while after a year, the cards are ready to pass on him as well. The 4th qb taken in this draft very well could be Daniel Jones Or Will Grier. Are you all really ok using a 1st or high second on either of those guys? 

He was passed on because of his personality which has never meshed well w/older F.O.’s. The ‘18 QB class is considered the best of the decade. The ‘19 class is and has always been considered ‘13-‘14 bad w/the exception of Murray and Haskins who are classic examples of 1 year starter fast risers that weren’t a part of the class grade until late in the season much like Mayfield wasn’t on anyone’s radar until late ‘16.

 

Take a look at SI’s mid ‘17 scouting grades on QBs from 8 evaluators they talked to (points awarded via 5 to 1 scale, more points for top ranking in sliding scale)

#1 is Darnold w/35 points

#2 is Rosen w/34 points

#3 is Josh Allen w/23 points

#4 is Falk w/10 points

#5 is Rudolph w/7 points

#6 is Mayfield w/6 points

 

Kinda hilarious isn’t it?

 

i went through a bazillion scouting reports in the ‘18 offseason (tape geek/analytics geek/scouting rumors from the NFL)and generally the consensus was:

 

Tier 1 (no particular order)

Mayfield

Rosen

Darnold

 

Tier 2:

Josh Allen-Big arm/Athleticism wildcard

 

Lamar Jackson-Athleticism wild card

 

What differentiated evals:

 

People who liked precocious performance and a big arm and ideal size liked Darnold best considering his breakout age and youth.

 

People who liked classic Pro Style QB liked Rosen best.

 

People who erred towards analytics first and then tape to back it up liked Mayfield Best.

 

Those that fixated on QB size and Big Arm liked Josh Allen Best (note he was drafted by a bad weather team, they were unlikely to take a softer thrower)

 

Those that wanted to roll the dice on an elite athlete with a surprisingly quality passing game to his skill set (Lamar Jackson was ranked 1B to Rosen on most lists circa 2016, then Darnold passed him at the end of that season). 

 

That's what dictated things.

 

Additionally Rosen, Mayfield, Darnold and Allen at peak evaluation would have topped every QB in the '16 and '17 and '19 classes combined.

[mistertim]

33 minutes ago, The Consigliere said:

I know, it’s why I think I referred to him in the sense of tanking in ‘20. Too hard to project a tank w/this F.O. Inexplicably still in place.

 

Gotcha, my mistake.

 

Yeah that's one of the most paradoxical things about this FO; they're just good enough at building a team to not be awful enough to get fired. The result is consistent mediocrity meaning we never get a really high draft pick (meaning no blue chip QB without trading up) and we also can never get rid of the yokels making the decisions and keeping us consistently mediocre. 

 

2020 should be interesting...there will likely be a race to the bottom of teams trying to tank and get Lawrence with the #1 overall pick in the 2021 draft.

[The Consigliere]

18 hours ago, Califan007 said:

I hope we don't give up #15 for Rosen. That thought will come back to bite me in the ass if he becomes a legit franchise QB for someone else lol...but I think there are too many question marks on him to give up anything above a 2nd rounder. if the Skins somehow traded back and ended up with the player they targeted at #15 along with at least an additional 2nd rounder, I wouldn't be too upset at doing a draft day trade of both 2nd rounders for Rosen. If he's still available, that is.

 

Everyone's been wrong, and all the time at that. The key thing is just to own it. I hated the Scherrf pick and he turned out fine, I hated the Laron Landry and Sean Taylor picks and was right once and horrifically wrong the other time (although in fairness, I was in favor of trade down for Wilfork and Udeze that was supposedly offered by NE at the time (Udeze stunk, then had a career ending illness, Wilfork was a likely HOF talent). We all have tons of embarrassing misses over the years. I thought Ramsey was probably a league average or close starter and he sucked. It's fine to be wrong, we all are on some thing at any given time all the time. It's just the reality of life. I'd just hope it leads to best practices and good process, rather than just relying on intuitive and instinctive knee jerk reactions and no learning. 

16 hours ago, SemperFi Skins said:

 

By all accounts last years QB class was much better than this year. Rosen being the 4th qb speaks to the talent taken last year. Similar to what people think next years class will be with Tua/Fromm and then of course Lawrence in 2021. 

 

Not a good comparison IMO

 

side note: I had Rosen and Darnold tied for second best qb in the draft last year behind Mayfield

 

I had:

#1 Mayfield

#2 Rosen

#3 Darnold

 

and I had them all higher than any QB that's come out since Andrew Luck w/the possible exception of Winston who I dropped due to character concerns. 

 

I viewed Allen as a guy not worth a 1st round pick because of the hideous level of inaccuracy issues (even w/the exculpatory piece that he lost all his best weapons to the draft after his '16 season). 

[Skin'emAlive]

5 minutes ago, The Consigliere said:

He was passed on because of his personality which has never meshed well w/older F.O.’s. The ‘18 QB class is considered the best of the decade.

 

Regardless of why he was passed on, the fact remains he was the 4th qb taken, performed as the 5th best rookie qb last year, and is now on the trade block. Why are we still talking about his pre-draft rankings? They dont mean anything now 2 years removed. Lamar Jackson had a FAR superior collegiate career, and though he hasnt shown himself to be an NFL quarterback yet, I wouldnt bet against him figuring it out this year provided Baltimore picks up a good WR this draft.

[The Consigliere]

5 hours ago, bakedtater1 said:

I care if the skins are good next year...I care every year they exist..if you've made it 25 years being soooo miserable what makes ya think the next 12 will be better?

The only way to fix this bad is to tear it down to the roots. You are only doing sports right if you're doing it one of two ways: Contending or Rebuilding. When you pull stuff like the Giants did last year, that's the perfect summation of how to do sports wrong, operate in Denial and out of Fear. Pure idiocy. Very happy Gentleman is still employed there to blunt some of the pain of Allen and Snyder here.

[mistertim]

56 minutes ago, Burgold said:

I’m strangely at peace with Case being our 2019 QB. I like overachievers. I think he deserved better as far being rewarded in Minnesota. I think he was the 2017 version of Trent Dilfer. 

 

The only worry I have is what happens if he proves worthy? If he does then we lose him on a one year rental. 

 

At any rate, I feel okay about giving Case the keys to the car and hope we don’t draft a QB using a number one or two pick. 

 

So as long as we have the '00 Ravens defense, we're set then. 

 

[The Consigliere]

3 hours ago, Skin'emAlive said:

 

Ive never advocated trading up for Haskins. In fact, ive been pretty vocal about trading down and drafting Will Grier in the bottom of the 2nd or with our first pick in the 3rd. However, If Haskins falls past 6, it would be in our own best interests to look into trading up for him. Im not ok trading up to NYJ to draft Haskins.

 

Almost all quarterbacks are one-year wonders in college. Kyler Murray was Baker Mayfield's backup 2 years ago...

 

I dont agree with trading a first to a team that has a guy they have no future plans with. We can get a much better deal trading down with the #15 pick than trading for Rosen. Teams like Indianapolis, New England, Houston, Kansas City all have extra day 2 and 3 picks that we could pick up just by swapping our #15.

 

 

There has NEVER been a qb class in any year that has produced more than 3 star-quality quarterbacks. It has never happened. Baker is a star. Darnold is rising. and Josh Allen took a far inferior team with less "mechanics", no receivers, no healthy running backs, no tight ends, and a roster that had players retiring in the middle of a game to a better record than Rosen with with 2 of the best check-down receiving targets in the league, and the 4th overall wr taken in the draft.

 

I think Grier is a 2nd round quarterback. But that is only because there are so many great athletes available in the 1st, and the few teams that need a franchise quarterback also need top tier talent at the edge/lb position, which is almost as valuable as a quarterback now. (see Mack, Chicago). That being said, I think that Grier is the clear #3 best quarterback in this draft.

 

 

Pro style systems in college dont mean as much as they used to. Baker didnt play in a pro-style system. Kyler Murray and Grier both played in an air-raid style system. Mariota, Jackson, Newton, Griffin, etc. ran an RPO. Many others run the spread. The style of offense the quarterback runs in college is no longer that big of a deal as opposed to his poise, accuracy, confidence, pocket presence, and touch. If you can get a guy that can check off most of those boxes with consistency across an entire season in college, he is more than likely to be a quality pick in the draft.

 

 

Almost all QB's are one year wonders:

 

QB's 

Since 2012:

'12 Not true of Andrew Luck, or Russell Wilson or Kirk Cousins

 

'13-'14: Crap classes

 

'15 Not true of Winston or Mariota

 

'16: Not true of Goff or Wentz (although Wentz was basically a pure projection selection)

 

'17: Not true of Mahomes, or Watson. Was true of Trubisky.

 

'18: Not true of Mayfield, Dalton, Rosen, Allen or Jackson.

 

Are you sure about that measure? 

 

#2: Why do the plans of Arizona matter to us? They fired their HC and OC twice, and brought in a HC who couldn't make Mayfield or Mahomes work to install his offense which is antithetical to Rosen's style of play but perfectly meshed to Kyler Murray's and whoop, guess who owns the #1 pick, that very same team looking for a style match w/their new HC who Murray fits to a T. Why in heck does it matter that the Arizona staff shockingly wants to bring in a new QB for their new coach and new system, a system that doesn't match their second year QB.

 

Let me remind you of our own history as an example:

 

1981: Gibbs I sticks with Theismann.

 

1993: 1st year coach Richie Petition moves off of Rypien to Gannon and Conklin as season implodes. 

 

1994: New Head Coach Nora Turner ejects entire QB corps bringing in Shuler, Frerotte and FA John Friesz

 

2001: New Head Coach Schotty lets Brad Johnson leave, replaces Jeff George holdover with Tony Banks and Kent Graham

 

2002:New HC Spurrier ejects entire QB corps and replaces them with Florida grads Shane Matthews, Danny Weurffel and new draftee Patrick Ramsey. 

 

2004: New HC Joe Gibbs II ejects Florida rejects, and bounces between trade acquisition Boonell and backup Ramsey.

 

2008: Temp HC Jim Zorn saddled with 2 last years of Jason Campbell (he has zero power having been brought in to be an OC and made HC w/no takers for our gig)

 

2010: New HC Shanny ejects entire QB corps and replaces with Donovan McNabb acquisition and Rex Grossman

 

2014: New HC Jay Gruden kicks holdover RGIII to the curb replacing with in house Kirk Cousins. 

 

Take a look. Just like the rest of the NFL, when new regimes come in, the only time they EVER stick with holdover QB's are if they are proven quality or elite veterans, otherwise they ALWAYS move on. 

 

#3: Josh Allen was saddled with a garbage team w/a nice burner WR and little else. Rosen was saddled with a team that let 2 of their best 3 WR's leave via FA and kept Larry Fitzgerald for his perceived retirement tour. At RB David Johnson was misused all season long, never utilized properly due to the incompetence of the OC, and Leftwich was adequate but not substantially better at using him. Trying to figure out who those two great pass catchers he had to throw too were, I suppose Johnson who was never used properly and an 800 year old Larry Fitzgerald? Still a sneaky good slot guy even as old as he is, but no game breaker. Quick, name the rest of their WR corps (Christian Kirk (injured a good chunk of the year) and holdover WR Chad Williams who combined w/JJ for fewer than 25 catches). The Cardinals OL was league worst, the running game was ineffectual, they had no game breaking WR's, and Ricky Seals Jones failed to deliver. Buffalo's talent was garbage as well. The Bills had a better OL (26th to the Cardinals 32nd, but in fairness, the Cardinals 32nd was orders of magnitude worse, it was Houston 2002 bad, Philadelphia 1985-1986 bad. 

 

AYA:

Josh Allen 35th

Josh Rosen 36th

 

AYA Per Attempt:

Josh Allen 30th

Josh Rosen 32nd

 

True Completion %:

Josh Allen 35th

Josh Rosen 36th

 

Play Action Completion %:

Josh Allen: 22nd

Josh Rosen: 36th

 

Red Zone Completion %:

Josh Allen: 47th

Josh Rosen: 51st

 

Deep Ball Completion $:

Josh Allen: 33rd

Josh Rosen: 30th

 

Pressured Completion Rate:

Josh Allen 34th

Josh Rosen: 22nd

 

True Passer Rating: 

Josh Allen: 35th

Josh Rosen: 36th

 

Production Premium: 

Josh Allen: 8th

Josh Rosen: 36th

 

Accuracy Rating:

Josh Allen: 35th

Josh Rosen: 34th

 

WR Target Separation:

Josh Allen: 4th

Josh Rosen: 29th

 

Dropped Passes:

Josh Allen: 12th

Josh Rosen: 26th

 

So according to the metrics, they were indistinguishable other than the fact that Rosen's WR's sucked big time compared to Allen's. Not surprising. Allen's one area of huge superiority was in Production Premium which measures a players productivity across league average situations excluding plays for instance in two minute drills, or running out the clock etc. Allen was hugely productive there and I imagine it was a byproduct of his big plays (he had a lot) and his running which he was hugely productive at.Regardless, Allen often managed to make lemonade out of what was overall a lot of misshapen lemons, and a lot bad tasting lemons, while Rosen's lemonade sucked as much as his lemons did. One wonders what Allen would've done in the horrific situation Rosen had to deal with? Probably better but by much? The raw #'s say not really, though his athleticism would have allowed for more drive saving plays. 

 

#4 I don't disagree much with either of your last two points. I like Grier as a day 2 pick, I like Rosen more, just much better prospect, but if we don't land Rosen I think Grier is a nice kind of booby prize. And I agree on the spread. Other than old school offenses in places like Michigan, Stanford and Alabama (mostly), a ton of teams run the spread to try to cope with elite teams size/speed of their defenses, and as a result there are more and more quality QB's growing up in that system and better able to handle spread concepts than in the past. I think Pro Style QB's still give you a better chance of success at the next level, but it's not a zero sum game, at this point we're seeing plenty of spread guys become elite at the next level. 

 

 

[Skin'emAlive]

If I were the Cards, I would start over as well with whomever Kingsbury decides is his guy. But I think that absolutely kills any perceived value Rosen has, which I think was low in the first place due to his poor season. The only way I would trade a mid round pick would he if I had multiple picks ( like New England) and it’s more or less a stash-flier pick. Yet if I were New England, I still wouldn’t do that because the second Brady retires, Bill will be hitting the beaches soon after, leaving NE in the exact same situation of franchise rebuild AZ is in. Bomb for a season, grab a top pick and start over. 

 

Josh Allen has no reason whatsoever to succeed last season, and every win they had was 100% due to his athletic heroics.

 

Fitz and Johnson are still very much good and better than whatever buffalo had. I don’t think it’s a fair comparison to say Rosen didn’t have help, but Allen couldn’t do as well in Arizona.

[mistertim]

1 hour ago, Skin'emAlive said:

If I were the Cards, I would start over as well with whomever Kingsbury decides is his guy. But I think that absolutely kills any perceived value Rosen has, which I think was low in the first place due to his poor season. The only way I would trade a mid round pick would he if I had multiple picks ( like New England) and it’s more or less a stash-flier pick. Yet if I were New England, I still wouldn’t do that because the second Brady retires, Bill will be hitting the beaches soon after, leaving NE in the exact same situation of franchise rebuild AZ is in. Bomb for a season, grab a top pick and start over. 

 

Josh Allen has no reason whatsoever to succeed last season, and every win they had was 100% due to his athletic heroics.

 

Fitz and Johnson are still very much good and better than whatever buffalo had. I don’t think it’s a fair comparison to say Rosen didn’t have help, but Allen couldn’t do as well in Arizona.

 

The WR Target Separation numbers seem to indicate that, at the very least, Allen's WRs were far better at getting separation than Rosen's. Now, some of that could have been due to the offensive system not putting them in the best position to get open, but there's no way to attribute all of it or even most of it to that IMO. 

 

Another thing to remember about the Cards when discussing the moves they make is that their GM is one of a small number in the league who is likely as bad as ours. 

[The Consigliere]

6 hours ago, Skin'emAlive said:

If I were the Cards, I would start over as well with whomever Kingsbury decides is his guy. But I think that absolutely kills any perceived value Rosen has, which I think was low in the first place due to his poor season. The only way I would trade a mid round pick would he if I had multiple picks ( like New England) and it’s more or less a stash-flier pick. Yet if I were New England, I still wouldn’t do that because the second Brady retires, Bill will be hitting the beaches soon after, leaving NE in the exact same situation of franchise rebuild AZ is in. Bomb for a season, grab a top pick and start over. 

 

Josh Allen has no reason whatsoever to succeed last season, and every win they had was 100% due to his athletic heroics.

 

Fitz and Johnson are still very much good and better than whatever buffalo had. I don’t think it’s a fair comparison to say Rosen didn’t have help, but Allen couldn’t do as well in Arizona.

 

Johnson is a special talent, but not w/the OC (recall just the anecdotal note that in a key moment of the season early on, a 4th and 1 do or die play, they took him off and used Edmunds (a RB I like a lot) which was just totally inexplicable. Fitz is old as hell. He's still a genius route runner, technician WR, but he's no longer a difference maker, and the rest of the WR was total horse bleep. As bad as the talent in Buffalo was, they gave Allen a distinctly better OL, and in Robert Foster, an explosive WR that was totally lacking in Arizona to stretch the field. 

 

But yeah, in fairness, both situations were awful and Allen did flat out play better, but horrific OL's kill all rookie QB's, and while Buffalo's was replacement level at best, Arizona's was worst in a decade caliber. That's the stuff that ruined David Carr. 

 

[The Consigliere]

4 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

The WR Target Separation numbers seem to indicate that, at the very least, Allen's WRs were far better at getting separation than Rosen's. Now, some of that could have been due to the offensive system not putting them in the best position to get open, but there's no way to attribute all of it or even most of it to that IMO. 

 

Another thing to remember about the Cards when discussing the moves they make is that their GM is one of a small number in the league who is likely as bad as ours. 

 

The cardinals had two slot WR's in Kirk and Fitz, and in Chad Williams an overdraft bust who sucked. Beyond that they had nothing and that wasn't much to begin with and none of that was fast. Buffalo relied upon Zay Jones (an overdraft as well, but competent) and in Foster a genuinely explosive talent and a size guy bust in Kelvin Benjamin. Not a good WR corps either but a diversified one w/slot, size and speed, and a second slot guy in Kerley whose been competent. Holmes was Holmes. There's a reason they are projected by everyone to grab a WR in day 1 or day 2, but there WR situation is better than Arizona's was last year. 

 

 

[Anselmheifer]

19 hours ago, Skin'emAlive said:

 

Josh Allen has no reason whatsoever to succeed last season, and every win they had was 100% due to his athletic heroics.

Josh Allen sucks. His athleticism will win him a few games, but he has a very hard ceiling. He was an inaccurate collegiate passer with a career completion rating of below 57% in college. And, guess what, he had the lowest completion percentage in the league last year. Inaccurate collegiate passers make inaccurate NFL passers, almost entirely uniformly. 

Also, I'm off the Josh Rosen trade. He is going to cost too much. Let the giants trade the 17th pick for him. Would any of us really be afraid to face Josh Rosen?

[JoggingGod]

15 minutes ago, Anselmheifer said:

Josh Allen sucks. His athleticism will win him a few games, but he has a very hard ceiling. He was an inaccurate collegiate passer with a career completion rating of below 57% in college. And, guess what, he had the lowest completion percentage in the league last year. Inaccurate collegiate passers make inaccurate NFL passers, almost entirely uniformly. 

Also, I'm off the Josh Rosen trade. He is going to cost too much. Let the giants trade the 17th pick for him. Would any of us really be afraid to face Josh Rosen?

Yes I would. He’s a way better talent than anyone we could field.

[OVCChairman]

2 hours ago, Anselmheifer said:

Josh Allen sucks. His athleticism will win him a few games, but he has a very hard ceiling. He was an inaccurate collegiate passer with a career completion rating of below 57% in college. And, guess what, he had the lowest completion percentage in the league last year. Inaccurate collegiate passers make inaccurate NFL passers, almost entirely uniformly. 

Also, I'm off the Josh Rosen trade. He is going to cost too much. Let the giants trade the 17th pick for him. Would any of us really be afraid to face Josh Rosen?

 

 

in 2019, nope not afraid

 

In 2021 when they've rebuilt, replaced their GM / HC, and they likely draft a WR in the 1st this year if they make a move for Rosen.

 

Yea i'd be a little more nervous about it.  

[mistertim]

5 hours ago, Anselmheifer said:

Josh Allen sucks. His athleticism will win him a few games, but he has a very hard ceiling. He was an inaccurate collegiate passer with a career completion rating of below 57% in college. And, guess what, he had the lowest completion percentage in the league last year. Inaccurate collegiate passers make inaccurate NFL passers, almost entirely uniformly. 

Also, I'm off the Josh Rosen trade. He is going to cost too much. Let the giants trade the 17th pick for him. Would any of us really be afraid to face Josh Rosen?

 

I don't think anyone is going to give up a straight up 1st round pick for Rosen. Pretty much everyone and their mother knows that the Cards are almost ensured to take Murray #1 overall. I thought it was ludicrous at first but over time I sort of started to believe it. If the reporting is true and they've already been made offers then clearly they're shopping him. But that makes their position somewhat weak. Teams know they need to get rid of Rosen to make way for Murray, and after the draft Rosen's asking price is only going to go down as there will then be less teams possibly in the mix after taking QBs high in the draft. 

 

They're gonna have to settle for a 2nd. Unless the Giants are just that stupid and panic and give up a 1st for him. Which is always possible seeing how they got completely pwned on the OBJ trade. 

 

As far as Rosen to the Giants I'd be more afraid of him this year than Haskins, though neither would really scare me too much but that's more because the Giants have no real receiving weapons now, a mediocre at best OL, and are obviously going to focus most of their offense around Barkley. I think Haskins is going to struggle mightily if he gets thrown to the wolves too early. At least Rosen has experience with NFL speed and is used to being behind a **** OL.

[TheShredder]

On 3/29/2019 at 4:22 AM, mistertim said:

Outside of a rule change, Lawrence won't be available until the 2021 draft

At the rate this team is going, the Skins are a lock to draft him in 2021. 

[alwaysaskin]

17 minutes ago, TheShredder said:

At the rate this team is going, the Skins are a lock to draft him in 2021. 

They’ll be a lock for #1 but Bruce will draft the best Alabama DT on the board

[Anselmheifer]

8 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

I don't think anyone is going to give up a straight up 1st round pick for Rosen. Pretty much everyone and their mother knows that the Cards are almost ensured to take Murray #1 overall. I thought it was ludicrous at first but over time I sort of started to believe it. If the reporting is true and they've already been made offers then clearly they're shopping him. But that makes their position somewhat weak. Teams know they need to get rid of Rosen to make way for Murray, and after the draft Rosen's asking price is only going to go down as there will then be less teams possibly in the mix after taking QBs high in the draft. 

 

They're gonna have to settle for a 2nd. Unless the Giants are just that stupid and panic and give up a 1st for him. Which is always possible seeing how they got completely pwned on the OBJ trade. 

 

As far as Rosen to the Giants I'd be more afraid of him this year than Haskins, though neither would really scare me too much but that's more because the Giants have no real receiving weapons now, a mediocre at best OL, and are obviously going to focus most of their offense around Barkley. I think Haskins is going to struggle mightily if he gets thrown to the wolves too early. At least Rosen has experience with NFL speed and is used to being behind a **** OL.

I don't think it matters if the Cards are obviously in for Murray. For one thing, they can always keep both. Rosen is cheap. If they can build his trade value in limited playing time then it's a win. If not, it's insurance against Murray getting hurt, or not developing as they expect. 

More importantly, it's simple supply and demand. If multiple teams are willing to give up a second, the price goes up. If only one is, the price is a second rounder.