SCOTUS: No longer content with stacking, they're now dealing from the bottom of the deck

[Voice_of_Reason]

3 hours ago, PokerPacker said:

Constitutional amendments are 2/3 super-majority, but legislation is 50%.  But with the modern day filibuster rules that don't require you to actually do anything to filibuster, it's realistically 60%.

Right.  So it’s 60 votes to get out of the senate which is why nothing new will ever happen.  

[PeterMP]

4 hours ago, The Sisko said:

The more economic pain they suffer, the better. Moreover, the Dems need to start using this to their advantage. The Grand Oligarch’s Party has been waging policy war against people they don’t like for years. It’s time the Dems start returning the favor by implementing policies to gut so-called “real” ‘Muricuh. They’re already on the edge so it shouldn’t take too much. Killing a few key “socialist” programs should do the trick.

 

Why is the more pain they suffer the better?

What are they already on the "edge" for and what is killing a few programs going to achieve?

 

What is the actual plan?

[EmirOfShmo]

 

[PeterMP]

5 hours ago, The Sisko said:

China, Russia, and the U.S. are largely the same, i.e. oligarchies. The specifics vary a bit, but the basic structure of the super rich taking everything and being above the law are the same.

 

This is false and talking like this makes the situation seem like it worse than it is and (potentially) excuses extreme actions.

 

An oligarchy is not defined who gets the money.  It is defined by who has the power.

 

And you may not like or agree with how a large number of people in this country vote, but they do vote.  And they sometimes vote people out of office.

 

It is easy to adopt an attitude of they don't know what they are doing or they are being manipulated, but there is every reason to believe they are voting based on what is important to them.

 

And on both sides of 

[86 Snyder]

35 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

 

This is false and talking like this makes the situation seem like it worse than it is and (potentially) excuses extreme actions.

 

An oligarchy is not defined who gets the money.  It is defined by who has the power.

 

And you may not like or agree with how a large number of people in this country vote, but they do vote.  And they sometimes vote people out of office.

 

It is easy to adopt an attitude of they don't know what they are doing or they are being manipulated, but there is every reason to believe they are voting based on what is important to them.

 

And on both sides of 

Pfft except the people with all the money more or less decide who the candidates will be to receive the power.  It’s faux democracy.  They whittle down to 2 acceptable options in their view and allow us to vote on it, which is *still* not even legitimate because of gerrymandering and the electoral college and bull**** justices on the bench.  At least with Russia and China folks know what the deal is.  Here the vast majority of the country still can’t figure out that a handful of people are Wizard of Oz-ing control of the country.

[PeterMP]

1 hour ago, 86 Snyder said:

Pfft except the people with all the money more or less decide who the candidates will be to receive the power.  It’s faux democracy.  They whittle down to 2 acceptable options in their view and allow us to vote on it, which is *still* not even legitimate because of gerrymandering and the electoral college and bull**** justices on the bench.  At least with Russia and China folks know what the deal is.  Here the vast majority of the country still can’t figure out that a handful of people are Wizard of Oz-ing control of the country.

 

The key words to your post are MORE OR LESS.  There is no MORE OR LESS in oligarchy. 

 

What we see is our fault.  We don't need to depend on tv ads etc. to decide who to vote for.  That isn't a requirement.  We (as a people) have decided that we'd rather be able to talk about the intricacies of a dime defense, a drop coverage, or the relationships between characters in fictional universes than to spend our time and money to figure out the best person to vote for and convincing other people to vote for.

 

They don't whittle it down to anything.  We do.  We have primaries in this country.  People are free to do the research to decide who to vote and to go vote in primaries.  And we don't have to whittle it down two. We choose to.

 

And the last part of your post is exactly related to the last part of my post.  It is well this group of people are being tricked and don't actually want or know what they are voting for.  I know people on the religious right.  They know what they are voting for, and right now, they're pretty happy about it.

 

And to a large extent by taking political discourse out of our personal lives, and our interactions with friends, family, etc. we've done this to ourselves.  All this is excuse making because people aren't happy with the out come but don't really want to change our lives to make a change.

 

AOC won a primary and than a general election.  And not because she had more money than her opponents.  And there are people on the right that are similar.  They do it because they care and are willing to put in the work.  And if the vast majority of us were willing to put in even 1/4 of that work, things would be different.

 

That we (as a nation) won't isn't the fault of the wealthy.

 

And blaming it on the wealthy is just lazy and stupid excuse making.

 

(I looked up the numbers.  Globally the Economists (which is British but deals a lot in US related stories) has fewer subscribers than the NFL Sunday ticket.)

Edited June 27, 2022 by PeterMP

[Renegade7]

@PeterMP

 

I find it fascinating your insistence to blame this on the general population at the same time the wealthiest people in this country have been engaging in targeted propaganda and education cuts to turn the electorate into what it is today.

 

I'm all for personal responsibility, but you are seriously letting a certain segment of our society off the hook here and how hard it will be to undo what they are putting in place. 

 

It could take a full generation or two to help calm down the general population's rhetoric towards people of different political views.  It may need an Amendment to the Constitution to clarify that corporations are not people that have the right to flood millions of dollars into campaigns all over the country and politicians pockets calling it lobbying and not corruption. 

 

It's going to take a lot more then waking up to how badly we are being played to take back our country.  Billions of dollars have been poured to making us "dumb and angry at each other", I do not understand how you can with a straight say that's entirely our fault like it was our plan to do it to ourselves and not theirs.

 

 

[86 Snyder]

39 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

 

The key words to your post are MORE OR LESS.  There is no MORE OR LESS in oligarchy. 

 

What we see is our fault.  We don't need to depend on tv ads etc. to decide who to vote for.  That isn't a requirement.  We (as a people) have decided that we'd rather be able to talk about the intricacies of a dime defense, a drop coverage, or the relationships between characters in fictional universes than to spend our time and money to figure out the best person to vote for and convincing other people to vote for.

 

They don't whittle it down to anything.  We do.  We have primaries in this country.  People are free to do the research to decide who to vote and to go vote in primaries.  And we don't have to whittle it down two. We choose to.

 

And the last part of your post is exactly related to the last part of my post.  It is well this group of people are being tricked and don't actually want or know what they are voting for.  I know people on the religious right.  They know what they are voting for, and right now, they're pretty happy about it.

 

And to a large extent by taking political discourse out of our personal lives, and our interactions with friends, family, etc. we've done this to ourselves.  All this is excuse making because people aren't happy with the out come but don't really want to change our lives to make a change.

 

AOC won a primary and than a general election.  And not because she had more money than her opponents.  And there are people on the right that are similar.  They do it because they care and are willing to put in the work.  And if the vast majority of us were willing to put in even 1/4 of that work, things would be different.

 

That we (as a nation) won't isn't the fault of the wealthy.

 

And blaming it on the wealthy is just lazy and stupid excuse making.

 

(I looked up the numbers.  Globally the Economists (which is British but deals a lot in US related stories) has fewer subscribers than the NFL Sunday ticket.)

Mmhmm.  It’s like a bullet proof vest, sometimes a Bernie or AOC slips through.  Then what?  They mobilize.  It never lasts for long or swings too far in the unwanted direction.  That’s why we got Trump after 8 years of Obama.  And never underestimate the role media plays in shaping the political ideologies of Joe Dumb****.  Who owns all the media around here?

 

We have faux democracy.  I’m not sure when it all changed exactly, like to think at some point in history it was more well intentioned, but we are not a real democracy anymore.  We live within the margins the ruling class allows to perpetuate the system and when it sways a bit too far, they course correct.  

Expecting us to become one requires people to be incredibly smarter than they are and it’s no coincidence the education system prevents that from happening.

 

“It’s a big club, and you ain’t in it”

[tshile]

Well said @PeterMP

we have the government we deserve 

[86 Snyder]

7 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

@PeterMP

 

I find it fascinating your insistence to blame this on the general population at the same time the wealthiest people in this country have been engaging in targeted propaganda and education cuts to turn the electorate into what it is today.

 

I'm all for personal responsibility, but you are seriously letting a certain segment of our society off the hook here and how hard it will be to undo what they are putting in place. 

 

It could take a full generation or two to help calm down the general population's rhetoric towards people of different political views.  It may need an Amendment to the Constitution to clarify that corporations are not people that have the right to flood millions of dollars into campaigns all over the country and politicians pockets calling it lobbying and not corruption. 

 

It's going to take a lot more then waking up to how badly we are being played to take back our country.  Billions of dollars have been poured to making us "dumb and angry at each other", I do not understand how you can with a straight say that's entirely our fault like it was our plan to do it to ourselves and not theirs.

 

 

Ding ding ding ding

1 minute ago, tshile said:

Well said @PeterMP

we have the government we deserve 

The **** we do.  

[PeterMP]

13 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

It's going to take a lot more then waking up to how badly we are being played to take back our country.  Billions of dollars have been poured to making us "dumb and angry at each other", I do not understand how you can with a straight say that's entirely our fault like it was our plan to do it to ourselves and not theirs.

 

We are dumb by choice, and we are angry because we've chosen to disengage from political discussions with people that we have regular and personal interactions.

 

Your post also comes very (dangerously) close to being the wealthy equivalent of racist or anti-Semtic and conspiracy driven where you are treating all wealthy people as a cohesive group with a plan.  There's no grand plan to make people angry and stupid that involve a large number of wealthy people.

 

The fossil fuel industry promotes anti-climate change propaganda because they don't want to pay for climate change related things (in terms of taxes and decreased consumption of their product).  Not because they are in cahoots with whatever other industry has is pushing what other propaganda as part of some big plan.

Edited June 27, 2022 by PeterMP

[tshile]

7 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

I find it fascinating your insistence to blame this on the general population at the same time the wealthiest people in this country have been engaging in targeted propaganda and education cuts to turn the electorate into what it is today.

 

I'm all for personal responsibility, but you are seriously letting a certain segment of our society off the hook here and how hard it will be to undo what they are putting in place. 

He’s not letting anyone off the hook. 
 

He’s talking about the difference between being able to change it, and not. 
 

and we’re able to change it

 

just so happens people would rather subscribe to the nfl Sunday ticket 

1 minute ago, 86 Snyder said:

The **** we do.  

You think there’s like a room of rich people pulling all the strings or something 

 

you’re already lost, it doesn’t matter

[PeterMP]

12 minutes ago, 86 Snyder said:

Mmhmm.  It’s like a bullet proof vest, sometimes a Bernie or AOC slips through.  Then what?  They mobilize.  It never lasts for long or swings too far in the unwanted direction.  That’s why we got Trump after 8 years of Obama.  And never underestimate the role media plays in shaping the political ideologies of Joe Dumb****.  Who owns all the media around here?

 

We have faux democracy.  I’m not sure when it all changed exactly, like to think at some point in history it was more well intentioned, but we are not a real democracy anymore.  We live within the margins the ruling class allows to perpetuate the system and when it sways a bit too far, they course correct.  

Expecting us to become one requires people to be incredibly smarter than they are and it’s no coincidence the education system prevents that from happening.

 

“It’s a big club, and you ain’t in it”

 

Who mobilizes?

 

What happens when they mobilize?

 

Bernie Sanders has been part of the federal government since 1991.

 

We aren't going to come together.  Other than a few things like the Great Depression, WW2, this country has never "been together".  People disagree.  And that isn't because wealthy people want people to disagree.

 

And in terms of education, I have two kids in public schools.  I graduated from a public high school in 1990.  My kids educations kicks my education's ass.  My oldest daughter is reading and analyzing first person sources in her history class.  The only original documents I read were the Constitution and the Deceleration Independence.

Edited June 27, 2022 by PeterMP

[Renegade7]

DNC has to stop putting all their effort into convincing people their plans are better and directly attack the propaganda that is quite frankly kicking their ass the last 20 years or so.

 

Clarify that Fox News lies too much to be protected by 1st Amendment under Freedom of the Press, OAN as well. Update Section 230 to directly address social media platforms turning a blind eye and some cases even trying to monetize the damage being done by propaganda on their platforms.  Pass a bill blocking congress from owning stocks as a good faith first step towards attacking citizens untied. And stop ignoring Rural America because they don't believe they can elections there, it feeds into the narrative they don't care about them even if they keep losing elections.

 

It all adds up, it's been adding, and it will take adding up to counter it.

[Spaceman Spiff]

1 minute ago, PeterMP said:

 

We are dumb by choice, and we are angry because we've chosen to disengage from political discussions with people that we have regular and personal interactions.

 

Your post also comes very (dangerously) close to being the wealthy equivalent of racist or anti-Semtic where you are treating all wealthy people as a cohesive group with a plan.  There's no grand plan to make people angry and stupid.  

 

The fossil fuel industry promotes anti-climate change propaganda because they don't want to pay for climate change related things (in terms of taxes and decreased consumption of their product).  Not because they are in cahoots with whatever other industry has is pushing what other propaganda as part of some big plan.

 

Agreed, for the most part.  Blaming everything on the wealthy is a lot like blaming everything on "the other" as people like to say.  

 

The one part I will slightly disagree on is the media's role in making people angry and stupid (stupid only if you're a Fox News viewer, luulllzzz).  But to your point, it's up to individuals to be discerning in what they consume.  There's a contingent of people who like to veg out in front of the TV each night and get angry.  The media doesn't care how stupid they're making people, they just want to make sure they're tuning in.

 

[Hersh]

2 hours ago, PeterMP said:

It is easy to adopt an attitude of they don't know what they are doing or they are being manipulated, but there is every reason to believe they are voting based on what is important to them.

 

 

I used to believe this but GOP voters struggle to name any policies or achievements these days. Do you hear the **** these brain dead ****s say about Trump? The vast majority of the GOP now  only votes cause a candidate has an R next to their name. It's the FoxNews effect that all Dems are evil. 

[Renegade7]

5 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

 

We are dumb by choice, and we are angry because we've chosen to disengage from political discussions with people that we have regular and personal interactions.

 

Your post also comes very (dangerously) close to being the wealthy equivalent of racist or anti-Semtic where you are treating all wealthy people as a cohesive group with a plan.  There's no grand plan to make people angry and stupid.  

 

The fossil fuel industry promotes anti-climate change propaganda because they don't want to pay for climate change related things (in terms of taxes and decreased consumption of their product).  Not because they are in cahoots with whatever other industry has is pushing what other propaganda as part of some big plan.

 

The bold is comlpletely untrue, and I'm not blaming the entire upper class for anything.

 

It is an outright lie to say there hasn't been a concerted effort (such as the creation and purpose of Fox News) to change the rhetoric we have towards each into what it is today.

 

I mean, what the hell, propaganda does not all come from the same place for the same reason, you know that. Stop trying to simplify this to simplify the blame.  This isn't an illuminati situation, if that's what what your are trying to disprove.

[NoCalMike]

28 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

 

The key words to your post are MORE OR LESS.  There is no MORE OR LESS in oligarchy. 

 

 

And blaming it on the wealthy is just lazy and stupid excuse making.

 

I think it's reasonable to point to the fact that money in the system is a big issue, and that a lot of big money is spent on interests that directly go against the interests of the masses.  

 

It would be different if Roe being overturned happened in some kind of vacuum where it wasn't a bigger indictment on the system itself and how a judge even gets to SCOTUS in the first place.

 

We may not be in a full-on oligarchy right now, but the influence of the wealthy's money on the system is hard to deny, especially after some of the SCOTUS's rulings in the last 20 years.

[PeterMP]

2 minutes ago, Hersh said:

 

I used to believe this but GOP voters struggle to name any policies or achievements these days. Do you hear the **** these brain dead ****s say about Trump? The vast majority of the GOP now  only votes cause a candidate has an R next to their name. It's the FoxNews effect that all Dems are evil. 

 

The vast majority of people that vote R want more access to guns and less access to abortions.  On many fronts, they want to turn the clock back to the 1950s.  That's what is important to them.

 

And that's all.  To most of them, the other policies don't matter so yes they talk stupid about them.

 

There is also a part of this that we as a people have disengaged from political discourse with family members and other people that we have regular interactions with.  It is easy for Fox News to paint Democrats as evil when we have disengaged from society and lost that connections and conversations.  What we've done has enabled Fox News.

[Hersh]

1 hour ago, PeterMP said:

 

What we see is our fault. 

 

This is complete and utter bull****. Gerrymandering the **** out of states so a party that receives less than 50% can somehow hold a veto proof supermajority isn't the fault of people that voted. 

The fact that we are tied to the dumb electoral college and that idaho gets as much voting power in the Senate as Texas and California isn't the fault of those that vote. 

 

16 minutes ago, tshile said:

Well said @PeterMP

we have the government we deserve 

 

People that vote and knock doors and put in the time don't deserve this ****. 



PS- I feel like this entire conversation should be moved to a non-SC thread. 

[86 Snyder]

I’m not even remotely talking about “the wealthy”.  I’m talking about blasting off into space ultra ****ing obscenely rich with all the political reach that comes with it.  Anyway, I’m going to enjoy the Stanley Cup rather than get into the weeds on this.  Just consider me a Carlinist.

 

But there’s a reason. There’s a reason. There’s a reason for this, there’s a reason education sucks, and it’s the same reason that it will never, ever, ever be fixed. It’s never gonna get any better. Don’t look for it. Be happy with what you got. Because the owners of this country don't want that. I'm talking about the real owners now, the real owners, the big wealthy business interests that control things and make all the important decisions. Forget the politicians. The politicians are put there to give you the idea that you have freedom of choice. You don't. You have no choice. You have owners. They own you. They own everything. They own all the important land. They own and control the corporations. They’ve long since bought and paid for the senate, the congress, the state houses, the city halls, they got the judges in their back pockets and they own all the big media companies so they control just about all of the news and information you get to hear. They got you by the balls. They spend billions of dollars every year lobbying, lobbying, to get what they want. Well, we know what they want. They want more for themselves and less for everybody else, but I'll tell you what they don’t want: They don’t want a population of citizens capable of critical thinking. They don’t want well informed, well educated people capable of critical thinking. They’re not interested in that. That doesn’t help them. Thats against their interests. Thats right. They don’t want people who are smart enough to sit around a kitchen table to figure out how badly they’re getting ****ed by a system that threw them overboard 30 ****ing years ago. They don’t want that. You know what they want? They want obedient workers. Obedient workers. People who are just smart enough to run the machines and do the paperwork, and just dumb enough to passively accept all these increasingly ****tier jobs with the lower pay, the longer hours, the reduced benefits, the end of overtime and the vanishing pension that disappears the minute you go to collect it, and now they’re coming for your Social Security money. They want your retirement money. They want it back so they can give it to their criminal friends on Wall Street, and you know something? They’ll get it. They’ll get it all from you, sooner or later, 'cause they own this ****ing place. It's a big club, and you ain’t in it. You and I are not in the big club. And by the way, it's the same big club they use to beat you over the head with all day long when they tell you what to believe. All day long beating you over the head in their media telling you what to believe, what to think and what to buy. The table is tilted folks. The game is rigged, and nobody seems to notice, nobody seems to care. Good honest hard-working people -- white collar, blue collar, it doesn’t matter what color shirt you have on -- good honest hard-working people continue -- these are people of modest means -- continue to elect these rich ****suckers who don’t give a **** about them. They don’t give a **** about you. They don’t give a **** about you. They don't care about you at all -- at all -- at all. And nobody seems to notice, nobody seems to care. That's what the owners count on; the fact that Americans will probably remain willfully ignorant of the big red, white and blue dick that's being jammed up their assholes everyday. Because the owners of this country know the truth: it's called the American Dream, because you have to be asleep to believe it.

George Carlin

[Renegade7]

18 minutes ago, tshile said:

Well said @PeterMP

we have the government we deserve 

 

65 million people did not get what they deserve in 2016, so tired of hearing this ****.  Friendly reminder that that SOB Trump lost the popular vote as well that year.

Edited June 27, 2022 by Renegade7

[PeterMP]

1 minute ago, NoCalMike said:

 

I think it's reasonable to point to the fact that money in the system is a big issue, and that a lot of big money is spent on interests that directly go against the interests of the masses.  

 

It would be different if Roe being overturned happened in some kind of vacuum where it wasn't a bigger indictment on the system itself and how a judge even gets to SCOTUS in the first place.

 

We may not be in a full-on oligarchy right now, but the influence of the wealthy's money on the system is hard to deny, especially after some of the SCOTUS's rulings in the last 20 years.

 

Citizens United is an issue.  But Citizens United is symptom not the underlying problem.  We were headed down this road before that.

 

And it isn't like money in politics just became a thing in the 2000s or even the 1980s.  There have always been big money donors trying to get what they want done done.  That's as old as this country.  That doesn't explain why we are where we are now.

[Renegade7]

17 minutes ago, tshile said:

He’s not letting anyone off the hook. 
 

He’s talking about the difference between being able to change it, and not. 
 

and we’re able to change it

 

just so happens people would rather subscribe to the nfl Sunday ticket 

 

And how do yall think we got here?  Mere coincidence to the seeming explosion of money in our political system?

[tshile]

Just now, Renegade7 said:

 

65 million people did not get what they deserve in 2016, so tired of hearing this ****.  Friendly reminder that that SOB lost the popular vote as well that year.

Yes when you get to pick your candidate and your candidate loses - that’s sort of what happens. 
 

Lack of voting in non-presidential years. Lack of primary participation. Lack of time spent learning about any of it. What about local participation? People know who their school board members are? Town councils?

 

People know about tv series and movies and video games and what the point spread in (and what it should be). 
 

but they don’t seem to know a lot about their government. 
 

it’s a choice. People have clearly shown the ability to pay attention and consume information. 
 

they’ve also shown which information it is they’re interesting in spending time on. And which ones they aren’t.