Dan T. Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 3 hours ago, Burgold said: Emotionally, to Ford the attack may have been just as profound. We saw how she was impacted, right? We saw how that attack has played over her entire life, right? Would the damage to her life be that much greater with penetration? Burgold, and others, you need to be better than this. Let's try to stick to facts here. Ford did not accuse Kavanaugh of rape. There are legal distinctions between rape and other types of sexual assault. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcl05 Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 It is absolutely true that there are non-trivial differences between rape and attempted rape. They should both be absolutely disqualifying from any position of respect or reverence in our society. The difference is important from a legalistic standpoint, but not for this debate, in my opinion. If he is more likely than not to have attempted rape, he should not be on the supreme (or any other) court, whether he succeeded in his attempt or not. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bearrock Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 I don't think either side of the argument on this forum disagrees (or even comes close to disagreeing) on the point that attempted rape is totally and absolutely disqualifying for a supreme court nominee. Perhaps there is some philosophical debate to be had on whether unabandoned attempt is as morally reprehensible as a completed commission of a crime, but it can really easily muddy the waters in the context of this discussion. I think many on the side of attempt is not the same as rape is trying to be precise as possible to avoid accusing the nominee of any more than what he is already accused of. Because what he is already accused of is plenty enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bozo the kKklown Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 20 minutes ago, Dan T. said: Burgold, and others, you need to be better than this. Let's try to stick to facts here. Ford did not accuse Kavanaugh of rape. There are legal distinctions between rape and other types of sexual assault. That's not what Burgold is saying. He isn't saying Kavanaugh raped her or is a rapist. He is saying that the event has a traumatic effect on her life. I do not agree with it being the same as rape like Burgold said - mostly because I cannot speak on those two situations - but I am bothered that posters in here are not attempting to read his words correctly. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popeman38 Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 It is more than a philosophical debate. It is a trend in society to intentionally distort facts to make the situation more sinister or more innocent. The facts of the situation need to be treated as gospel, with no movement permitted. Otherwise, there is no basis from which to debate and formulate opinions. Shifting sands do not serve as a foundation. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bozo the kKklown Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 Just now, Popeman38 said: It is more than a philosophical debate. It is a trend in society to intentionally distort facts to make the situation more sinister or more innocent. The facts of the situation need to be treated as gospel, with no movement permitted. Otherwise, there is no basis from which to debate and formulate opinions. Shifting sands do not serve as a foundation. Burgold never said she was raped by Kavanaugh. You took it that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan T. Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 24 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said: Burgold never said she was raped by Kavanaugh. You took it that way. Others have on here, and he chimed in. My point is simple, and it's one that Popeman argued correctly. Christine Blasey-Ford did not accuse Brett Kavanaugh of rape. So let's not say that she did. Facts do matter. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bozo the kKklown Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 5 minutes ago, Dan T. said: So let's not say that she did. That's fine, and others may have. Burgold didn't, so it is not fair to say he has and accuse him of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted October 3, 2018 Author Share Posted October 3, 2018 4 minutes ago, Dan T. said: Others have on here, and he chimed in. My point is simple, and it's one that Popeman argued correctly. Christine Blasey-Ford did not accuse Brett Kavanaugh of rape. So let's not say that she did. Facts do matter. Again, I never claimed that she was raped or suggested that she might have been. What I wondered about was whether the effects of this attack on her life were psychologically similar to those she would have suffered had she been raped. How different would the scars have been if she had been raped vs. suffering the assault as she had. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Evil Genius Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 I can't imagine what it's like to continually use some of these far right fringe news sites as my go to for proof. Is Free Republic not good enough for you guys anymore? How about 4chan. I at least recognize those two groups of assholes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popeman38 Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 1 minute ago, BenningRoadSkin said: That's not what Burgold is saying. He isn't saying Kavanaugh raped her or is a rapist. He is saying that the event has a traumatic effect on her life. I do not agree with it being the same as rape like Burgold said - mostly because I cannot speak on those two situations - but I am bothered that posters in here are not attempting to read his words correctly. Yes. But he responded to me making a distinction between the accusation and a poster who said Ford was raped. His response was a justification for treating them the same because the alleged actions had a profound affect on Ford's life. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan T. Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 Just now, Burgold said: Again, I never claimed that she was raped or suggested that she might have been. What I wondered about was whether the effects of this attack on her life were psychologically similar to those she would have suffered had she been raped. How different would the scars have been if she had been raped vs. suffering the assault as she had. Fair enough. I should have quoted one of the other posts that dismissed the distinction between rape and what he was accused of as immaterial. Again, my only point was let's stick to known facts as a foundation for debate. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilmer17 Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 Swetnick accused him of rape. Initially anyway. She's been backtracking and changing her story since the original accusation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 5 minutes ago, The Evil Genius said: I can't imagine what it's like to continually use some of these far right fringe news sites as my go to for proof. Is Free Republic not good enough for you guys anymore? How about 4chan. I at least recognize those two groups of assholes. Do you prefer Twitter? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bearrock Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 Regardless of the website twa pulled those stories from, Grassley's letter seems legit and I assume the property records are readily available. FBI needs to follow up on leads casting doubt on Dr. Ford's credibility too. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedskinsFan44 Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 Just now, bearrock said: Regardless of the website twa pulled those stories from, Grassley's letter seems legit and I assume the property records are readily available. FBI needs to follow up on leads casting doubt on Dr. Ford's credibility too. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted October 3, 2018 Author Share Posted October 3, 2018 1 minute ago, Kilmer17 said: Swetnick accused him of rape. Initially anyway. She's been backtracking and changing her story since the original accusation. I still can't get a handle on that one... though I haven't really read what she had to say directly. Was she witness or victim or both? It seems to vacillate which makes it less credible, much harder to pin down. I don't know how much credence to put into her story. I don't know that I disbelieve her, but with her I definitely feel the need for more corroboration. Maybe it's because she seems more defiant vs. broken. I do think her claims ought to be investigated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Evil Genius Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 2 minutes ago, twa said: Do you prefer Twitter? Sure because then it's a known opinion piece or thoughts. Otherwise I'm forced to look who who the **** these sites are that no one but the poster has heard of. ? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilmer17 Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 2 minutes ago, Burgold said: I still can't get a handle on that one... though I haven't really read what she had to say directly. Was she witness or victim or both? It seems to vacillate which makes it less credible, much harder to pin down. I don't know how much credence to put into her story. I don't know that I disbelieve her, but with her I definitely feel the need for more corroboration. Maybe it's because she seems more defiant vs. broken. I do think her claims ought to be investigated. I think this accusation provides cover for the GOP. It is SO outrageous, and has now changed multiple times, AND it has Avenattis hands all over it that it lets GOPers say "See! Its ALL BS!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Evil Genius Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 Re: Swetnick. Has Avenatti been wrong or lost on anything so far? It does help lend credence to her story that he's representing her. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 2 minutes ago, The Evil Genius said: Sure because then it's a known opinion piece or thoughts. Otherwise I'm forced to look who who the **** these sites are that no one but the poster has heard of. ? Lazy Americans 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilmer17 Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 Just now, The Evil Genius said: Re: Swetnick. Has Avenatti been wrong or lost on anything so far? It does help lend credence to her story that he's representing her. It does the exact opposite for GO Senators on the fence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justice98 Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 24 minutes ago, Dan T. said: Others have on here, and he chimed in. My point is simple, and it's one that Popeman argued correctly. Christine Blasey-Ford did not accuse Brett Kavanaugh of rape. So let's not say that she did. Facts do matter. It's the distinction between "rape" and "attempted rape". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Evil Genius Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Kilmer17 said: It does the exact opposite for GO Senators on the fence. Good? I'd rather the GOP continue to turtle on these accusations than evolve. It will help root out the decaying trash within. I say that sarcastically but I also really do hope the GOP evolves on these issues. Frankly I'm tired of victim blaming and the false persecution complex that the white male dominated GOP has adopted. Edited October 3, 2018 by The Evil Genius 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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