The Sycophants of Smith (Merged & M.E.T.)

[MahomesII]

42 minutes ago, Rdskns2000 said:

Do you think Alex could've won with the Redskins last year and taken us to the playoffs? 

 

Also, odds are Redskins will be changing coaches during his tenure here. Can Alex adjust to a new coaching staff and schemes or will he be the odd man out, when the inevitable change occurs?

I admittedly didn't watch much of your team this year, but know Alex I'm gonna say no. 

 

If his time in SF is an indicator of his ability to handle coaching and scheme change I'm going to also so no he can't handle it

33 minutes ago, Wyvern said:

It seems like much of his success is being able to take off occasionally with the ball on a long run.  He's 34 now, with a lot of mileage and hits -- is he starting to lose a step, becoming a little less quick?

He doesn't seem to have lost a step yet, but he does seems more reluctant to run.  His wife made a huge deal out of him having a concussion on Twitter a few years ago leading to speculation she wouldn't let him play anymore if he got another one.  He's a heady guy and doesn't take risks, on the field or off it would seem.   

[RVAskins]

Can he play cornerback too?

[Bacon]

1 hour ago, MahomesII said:

super smart guy

 

Oh boy, maybe we can get Gibbs to come back. 

[Mannix]

I’m another Chiefs fan and will offer up some thoughts regarding Smith.  I am one of the few that are down on his exit from the team.  I don’t think Mahomes lacks talent just that I think the time is now (for the offense at least) and next year Smith will be a better player than Mahomes.  Two or 3 years down the road the offensive corps will have aged/eroded.  Enough of that you folks want to know about Smith and how he will impact your team.

 

The game manager moniker was really pretty fair until this year.  I think he led the league in completions/throws over 50 yards this year.   26 tds vs 5 ints in 15 games.  I think he is an ascending player at 33.  

 

I would agree that he isn’t good often on 3rd down and often he didn’t make throws when behind to win.  That’s a legitimate knock.  However, he often manages a game so often he isn’t having to make risky throws at the end.  3 tds and 360 yards with two turnovers one of which results in a TD isn’t as sexy as two tds and 190 yards with no turnovers but it’s probably a better performance for the team.

 

He doesn’t throw the deep ball well.  His best ball is the 15 - 18 yard out.  I do think he’s smart enough to almost always audible into plays that give your offense the best chance to succeed.  Great teammate and guys like him and will play hard for him.  When the pocket breaks down and he must scramble he doesn’t look to go down field but he got better this year.  He is just risk averse.  He will however come out of his shell if the opponent demands it (Pats this year).  The Chiefs playoff record wasn’t great but the teams were good in reg season (beat both pats and eagles this year and pats and seabags the year they were in Super Bowl).  I don’t fault him or the offense much for the Titans loss rather the Chiefs horrid D. (Chiefs couldn’t stop Titans 3rd and 10 when everyone in stadium knew the Titans would run and the Titans ran for 12).

 

My concern in this situation is that the skins skill players aren’t as good as the Chiefs.  I think your line is a little better.  I think your defense is better.  I wish Smith the best and will now be routing for him as a Redskin.

 

You may not win it all with him but he’ll try like heck and if you put a team around him he’ll give you a chance.

 

 

 

[TK]

8 minutes ago, Mannix said:

 h*** 

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[Mannix]

 

sorry about that.  I took it out.

 

 

 

[emaw1979]

6 hours ago, Playaction2Sanders said:

How are you going to sign Peters AND Fuller when their deals are done??? You know what we paid for Norman, are you guys willing to pay close to that twice???

 

Peters has 3 years left on his rookie contract if you include the 5th year option. Fuller has 2. I personally don't believe Peters will be in the long term plans if Fuller works out. He has on the field issues, which he was suspended for 1 game this season, loathed by a large but minority portion of the fan base due to his sitting during the anthem, and has a love affair with the Raiders. Peters play also dropped considerably this year as he blatantly avoided tackling and he had several horrible games. 

 

2020 for the Chiefs has 4 pending free agents: Peters, Ragland, Chris Jones and Tyreek Hill. That's potentially a lot of cash to pony up with Mahomes a FA the following year.

 

 

[emaw1979]

4 hours ago, Mannix said:

I would agree that he isn’t good often on 3rd down and often he didn’t make throws when behind to win.  That’s a legitimate knock.  However, he often manages a game so often he isn’t having to make risky throws at the end.  3 tds and 360 yards with two turnovers one of which results in a TD isn’t as sexy as two tds and 190 yards with no turnovers but it’s probably a better performance for the team.

 

He doesn’t throw the deep ball well.  His best ball is the 15 - 18 yard out.

 

2 things I would like to argue

 

1) 3rd down stats: 59.2%, 7.42 average, 6 TD 1 INT 94.5 rating. 3rd (or 4th) and 3-8 yards to go, 48.2%, 4.77 average, 64.1 %. His bread and butter is obviously 1-2 yards to go and he is better with 3rd (or 4th) and 9+ yards with 117 rating. 

2) Playing from behind, 71.6, 8.82, 15 TD and 2 INT for 118.2 rating. His splits from 1-8 points and 9-16 points are even. He's a worse QB when the Chiefs led last year by 9-16 points. 

3) He was the best deep ball passer in the league last year. He was money. He was slightly below average from 0-19 middle of the field and to the strong side.

20 yards +

• Left of hash 125.8 rating
• Between hashes 153.3 rating
• Right of hash 138.6 rating

LOS-9 yards

• Between hashes 84.8 rating
• Right of hash 84.5 rating

10-19 yards

• Between the hashes 88.9 rating
• Right of hash 79.9 rating

 

He is generally considered accurate on short throws and last years newly found deep pass was out of this world good. His weakness however is the intermediate throws, especially outside the hashes, because he doesn't have the arm strength to fire it in their unless the WR's are very wide open. Last season, he attempted only 4.7 intermediate throws per game. 

 

Alex's average attempts per game by distance

• Behind LOS 6.2 tpg
• 1-5 yards 10 tpg
• 6-10 yards 8.2 tpg
• 11-19 4.7 tpg
• 20+ 3.8 tpg

 

Some of this is by design but a ton of it is on Alex Smith's shoulders. He checks down more than any QB i've seen before, which is becoming more popular league wide. The Chiefs ran a lot less screens than they have previously under Reid this year as well. 

 

My only issues with Smith are his vision and his tendency to play way too conservative. Watching all 22 film and seeing wide open receivers when he completely ignores them and takes a sack, throws it away or checks down gets pretty old. Maybe it's him struggling with pre-snap reads that plays a part of this. It does cost the Chiefs games. The last two playoff games for the Chiefs, Steelers and Titans, the All 22 film puts a lot of blame on his shoulders. 

[thinwhiteduke]

and the 2 tribes traded

good trade....

[SpacePenguin]

Can you take this living monument to mediocrity back?

[MahomesII]

8 hours ago, emaw1979 said:

Edited out a wall of text

 

You really just have to watch him to see it.  I concede the numbers don't look bad, but it's not the plays he makes but the plays that he doesn't make that kill you.  

 

Having Alex Smith is like going to Vegas with 100 dollars.  You probably won't win anything of substance, but you won't lose much either

4 hours ago, SpacePenguin said:

Can you take this living monument to mediocrity back?

 

I really hope not 

[Mannix]

8 hours ago, emaw1979 said:

2 things I would like to argue

 

1) 3rd down stats: 59.2%, 7.42 average, 6 TD 1 INT 94.5 rating. 3rd (or 4th) and 3-8 yards to go, 48.2%, 4.77 average, 64.1 %. His bread and butter is obviously 1-2 yards to go and he is better with 3rd (or 4th) and 9+ yards with 117 rating. 

2) Playing from behind, 71.6, 8.82, 15 TD and 2 INT for 118.2 rating. His splits from 1-8 points and 9-16 points are even. He's a worse QB when the Chiefs led last year by 9-16 points. 

3) He was the best deep ball passer in the league last year. He was money. He was slightly below average from 0-19 middle of the field and to the strong side.

20 yards +

• Left of hash 125.8 rating
• Between hashes 153.3 rating
• Right of hash 138.6 rating

LOS-9 yards

• Between hashes 84.8 rating
• Right of hash 84.5 rating

10-19 yards

• Between the hashes 88.9 rating
• Right of hash 79.9 rating

 

He is generally considered accurate on short throws and last years newly found deep pass was out of this world good. His weakness however is the intermediate throws, especially outside the hashes, because he doesn't have the arm strength to fire it in their unless the WR's are very wide open. Last season, he attempted only 4.7 intermediate throws per game. 

 

Alex's average attempts per game by distance

• Behind LOS 6.2 tpg
• 1-5 yards 10 tpg
• 6-10 yards 8.2 tpg
• 11-19 4.7 tpg
• 20+ 3.8 tpg

 

Some of this is by design but a ton of it is on Alex Smith's shoulders. He checks down more than any QB i've seen before, which is becoming more popular league wide. The Chiefs ran a lot less screens than they have previously under Reid this year as well. 

 

My only issues with Smith are his vision and his tendency to play way too conservative. Watching all 22 film and seeing wide open receivers when he completely ignores them and takes a sack, throws it away or checks down gets pretty old. Maybe it's him struggling with pre-snap reads that plays a part of this. It does cost the Chiefs games. The last two playoff games for the Chiefs, Steelers and Titans, the All 22 film puts a lot of blame on his shoulders. 

8 hours ago, emaw1979 said:

 

 

Your third down stats surprised me.  I didn’t realize he was that good.  I still maintain he isn’t a great deep ball thrower.  Right, statistically he performed well but some of his receivers were ridiculously wide open.  

 

The good news is this year he tried/or the plays were designed/he felt pressured because of Mahomes/or Reid demanded it whatever the reason he went down field more than ever before.  Mostly the results were very good.  Your point about the team not running as many tight end/receiver screens is spot on.  2016 in particular was frustrating because the Chiefs constantly ran those plays around the goal line and throughout the game and almost always with poor results.

 

I haven’t watched the all 22 film but I will say that statically Smith had an unbelievable 1st half.  The Titans dominated time of possession in the 2nd limiting the Chiefs possessions.  The Chiefs run defense was awful all year and the Titans just pounded them.  Plus Mariotta threw a TD to himself.

 

On another note I would be more bullish on Smith’s chances in DC if Reed were more reliable (health).  Has he always been so injury prone or was it just this year?  Your offensive line when healthy seems pretty good.  Is that assessment shared by skins fans

[BurgundyBooger]

Would it be accurate to say that Alex Smith is just an older version of Kirk Cousins with just a slightly greater propensity to scramble?

[NoCalMike]

24 minutes ago, BurgundyBooger said:

Would it be accurate to say that Alex Smith is just an older version of Kirk Cousins with just a slightly greater propensity to scramble?

 

I always thought of Cousins with the skill-set that could develop into an Alex Smith-type QB. Even at 33, Alex Smith looks more athletic when he bootlegs or scrambles and breaks the pocket to take off.

 

I think their style and approach to the game is similar. 

[Mannix]

Yeah, I think Smith is more athletic outside the pocket now than Cousins was in college.  Cousins pushes the ball more down field sometimes with better sometimes with worse results.  I think Cousins maybe a little more accurate as a passer though Smith had the best year of either this year in completion percentage.  Isn’t Smith a better deal financially?

[Unbias]

Thanks for starting the conversation. I feel your responses are genuine, but also harbor a bit of 'butt hurt' from his playoff performances of late. Either way, it's interesting getting some insight into what Alex Smith has been like. 

Either way, to my question: When Kaepernick took over in SF Vernon Davis (ironically) noted the big difference between Kaep and Smith was that Smith needed open receivers to throw in and would avoid tight window type throws, whereas Kaep took more risks, which based on the talent level of the team paid off. Have you seen Alex Smith evolve in that area? Is he making a few more tight window throws then he did earlier in his career? 

 

Side note - To be fair, Davis has been on both sides of the discussion. He originally supported Alex Smith in 2012, but then flipped to Kaep to fuel any QB controversy that was going on at the time. The 2013 season, where Smith was traded to KC, matched Davis' career highs in TDs (13), but the relationship regressed after that and ultimately leading to Davis being traded.  

50 minutes ago, Mannix said:

Yeah, I think Smith is more athletic outside the pocket now than Cousins was in college.  Cousins pushes the ball more down field sometimes with better sometimes with worse results.  I think Cousins maybe a little more accurate as a passer though Smith had the best year of either this year in completion percentage.  Isn’t Smith a better deal financially?

 

The thing that outsiders don't realize about Cousins is that he's actually fairly mobile (In a very race specific way it's called 'sneaky' athletic). This year behind a make shift OL he ran 49 times for 179 yards (3.7 ypc) and 4 TDs. He also has 13 rushing TDs over the past 3 years. I'm not saying Smith isn't the better athlete, but that Kirk is no slouch. 

[Mannix]

56 minutes ago, Unbias said:

Thanks for starting the conversation. I feel your responses are genuine, but also harbor a bit of 'butt hurt' from his playoff performances of late. Either way, it's interesting getting some insight into what Alex Smith has been like. 

Either way, to my question: When Kaepernick took over in SF Vernon Davis (ironically) noted the big difference between Kaep and Smith was that Smith needed open receivers to throw in and would avoid tight window type throws, whereas Kaep took more risks, which based on the talent level of the team paid off. Have you seen Alex Smith evolve in that area? Is he making a few more tight window throws then he did earlier in his career? 

 

Side note - To be fair, Davis has been on both sides of the discussion. He originally supported Alex Smith in 2012, but then flipped to Kaep to fuel any QB controversy that was going on at the time. The 2013 season, where Smith was traded to KC, matched Davis' career highs in TDs (13), but the relationship regressed after that and ultimately leading to Davis being traded.  

 

The thing that outsiders don't realize about Cousins is that he's actually fairly mobile (In a very race specific way it's called 'sneaky' athletic). This year behind a make shift OL he ran 49 times for 179 yards (3.7 ypc) and 4 TDs. He also has 13 rushing TDs over the past 3 years. I'm not saying Smith isn't the better athlete, but that Kirk is no slouch. 

I think Davis’s assessment that he avoided tight window throws is accurate.  I would note that those late 49er teams had a fantastic defense so why would you want to take tons of chances.  To me Smith plays to the situation.  With the 9ers you had a top two defense so why take a risk that puts the team in a bad spot.  (Don’t turn it over/it’s ok to take field goals).  With the Chiefs he is taking more chances because the defense is a liability.  A couple of years ago with a better defense I think he played more conservative with the Chiefs.  I fault him for the loss to Pittsburgh last year more than the rest of the playoff flame outs.  

 

Yeah to to be fair to Cousins I’ve only watched some highlights and maybe one complete game he’s played.  It’s too bad things went south because his 2015 year was really good.  Don’t know the politics/inner workings of the skins FO but my feeling from what I’ve read is that it’s dysfunctional.  From the outside Snyder has always seemed ultra meddlesome.  All the free agent busts and drafts with few picks.  I hope that they can draft some defenders and maybe find a gem at RB.  

[88Comrade2000]

23 hours ago, Mannix said:

 

You may not win it all with him but he’ll try like heck and if you put a team around him he’ll give you a chance.

 

 

 

We will never put a quality team around Alex.  

[Mr. Sinister]

Damn in the midst of all this I totally forgot Davis was still on the team. He must be thinking "Wtf do I have to do to get away from this damn guy""

[TK]

I've got a question for Chiefs fans.  

 

When the obnoxious ones eventually wear out their welcome here, y'all gonna take the window or the stairs?  

[Temper11]

8 hours ago, Mannix said:

To me Smith plays to the situation.

 

This is really all you need to know about Smith.  It's why more than anything, IMO, he's labeled as a game manager.  If the team is up 2 TD's at the half, he isn't going to take any risks that puts the D's backs against the wall.  If you're down late, he'll sling it - hasn't always worked out, but he's won a ton more games that way in the last 7 years than he's lost. 

 

Playoffs have been the bugaboo. 

[bowhunter]

11 hours ago, Mannix said:

  Isn’t Smith a better deal financially?

Yes, depending on the final details, probably about $3-8 million cheaper per year. In essence it's enough savings to re-sign Zach Brown. The inevitable question of which option is better, Smith and Brown or Kirk and Fuller will surely surface around here sooner or later.

[MahomesII]

1 hour ago, TK said:

I've got a question for Chiefs fans.  

 

When the obnoxious ones eventually wear out their welcome here, y'all gonna take the window or the stairs?  

Seeing as you are in charge here, block the annoying ones, and I'll never be back.  Odds are I'll leave forever in a day or two anyways.  The stairs preferred though. 

[caldera]

First of all, when Alex arrived we heard stories that the 49er board had to create a separate forum for Alex Smith fights. The same thing happened at the Chiefs board (they didn't create a seperate forum but the fights started to wreck every thread). Smith inspires a certain amount of people to be so deranged with hate that they never stop posting about how much they hate him, and he also inspires a smaller number of people to love him so much that they never stop defending him, even when it's indefensible. If you aren't careful the Alex Smith storm will consume everything else here so your mods should get a handle on it quickly. The haters can't help but make everything about him and his apologists can't stay away. 

 

Anyway, Smith isn't terrible. He is actually pretty good most of the time. He has some limitations in that he's adverse to making risky throws, and he gets happy feet sometimes. Of course, there are two sides to those coins. His being risk-adverse is why he has such a ridiculously low number of turnovers. His scrambling ability turns into a lot of extended plays and first downs on the ground.

 

Is he good enough to win a Super Bowl? Probably 80% of Chiefs fans would say no. But he has been held back severely by Reid's play calling, offensive line play, and lack of consistent weapons on offense most of the time. (And in the last two years, a defense that has coughed up more points in the second half than you would think possible)

 

I wish Alex well, he's a character guy and deserves another shot with a team that's on the verge. But... well, there's a reason why even his supporters among Chiefs fans are glad the Smith era is over. 

 

Good luck this season, skinbras

[thinwhiteduke]

Cousins was a better passer