Star Wars: The Last Jedi Discussion Thread [SPOILERS ALLOWED!]

[DogofWar1]

17 minutes ago, Springfield said:

 One movie left for Ren to go full on evil and then be either killed (quick and simple) or turn back to the light (long and complicated or else they **** it all up).

This is an important part of the problem here too.  You've seemingly got JJ Abrams' vision, and Rian Johnson's vision, and they went in two different directions in VII and VIII.  Now they've only got IX to tie everything up and make it make sense.  I suppose from that angle, refocusing on Ren by killing off a ton of other characters works well, we're not left with much to do than focus on Rey and Ren.  Unfortunately, it really closes off some narrative paths that could have been a lot of fun.

[Renegade7]

Am I the only one that laughed a little when Luke walked into the hut and saw Kylo and Rey touching hands and blew the whole hut up?  Reminded me of some father walking in on their teenager daughter getting curious, c*ckblocking like a mf'r : )

 

Kylo totally wants to tap that, why else would he want her by her side instead of his apprentice?  Want to see that happen then Rey has to kill him anyway because he won't turn.  Regardless he's not going to turn, and the point has been made, he's gone too far to turn around and say "My bad on all that".

[NoCalMike]

31 minutes ago, Cooked Crack said:

I think the whole Snoke ending would have worked better if the strike didn't kill him. Wound Snoke but then have Kylo and Rey fight him. We'd miss the fight with the guards but it would be more satisfying than what they gave us. Beating an injured Snoke can save face for fans thinking he was going to be the big bad.

 

I mean Snoke was straight up throwing Rey around the room with a flick of his finger. Barely an effort.  In ESB, The Emperor could feel the rage in Luke and was ahead of him every step of the way, the entire lesson there was that rage and anger was not going to defeat the darkside.  That seemed to totally change when Kylo Ren wasted Snoke.  I just don't see how Snoke didn't sense the wavering betrayal.  Even when the light saber first turned on.....seemed like Snoke had ample time to get out of the situation with just a wound.    

[Momma There Goes That Man]

2 minutes ago, NoCalMike said:

 

I mean Snoke was straight up throwing Rey around the room with a flick of his finger. Barely an effort.  In ESB, The Emperor could feel the rage in Luke and was ahead of him every step of the way, the entire lesson there was that rage and anger was not going to defeat the darkside.  That seemed to totally change when Kylo Ren wasted Snoke.  I just don't see how Snoke didn't sense the wavering betrayal.  Even when the light saber first turned on.....seemed like Snoke had ample time to get out of the situation with just a wound.    

 

Well Kylo is always angry and full of rage so perhaps he was able to appear normal to Snoke and he didn’t detect anything. Snoke also said he no longer saw confliction in Kylo. Which I think was Kylos resolve to kill Snoke that Snoke mistook in his hubris as Kylos dedication to the dark side. 

[FanboyOf91]

Quote

It’s really worth taking a moment to see just how spectacularly this plot goes wrong, from a simple storytelling perspective. In order to thwart a tracking device the First Order has used to trace the Resistance ships, the pair call up Maz Kanata (Lupita Nyong’o), who suggests that they go to the casino world of Canto Bight to enlist the services of a singularly talented hacker who can be identified by the plum lapel blossom he always wears. The whole thing is a little “Murder on the Orient Express” for a “Star Wars” movie, but sure, fine. Of course, once they get there, Finn and Rose spot the Slicer (Justin Theroux) for approximately five seconds, then after they are locked up for — I truly wish I was making this up — a parking violation, they don’t bother to find him again and accept an offer of services from a completely random person with whom they have been imprisoned (Benicio Del Toro) because he says he can do it. The Resistance really needs to work on its operational security. After breaking out of jail, sneaking their way onto Supreme Leader Snoke’s (Andy Serkis) flag ship, and preparing to disarm the beacon, said completely random person sells Finn and Rose out. This renders the entire plot we’ve seen pointless, but it does give Finn an opportunity to bash his former Imperial commander, Captain Phasma (Gwendoline Christie, criminally underused), in the face, because clearly this could not have been accomplished in any other way.

 

Not only does this diversion literally end up having no impact on the plot at all, but it also becomes an excuse for Rose to monologue about the immorality of weapons dealers and inequality, and for “The Last Jedi” to suggest that the future of the Resistance lies in some scrappy stable kids (to which I’ll return in a moment). “The Empire Strikes Back” conveyed the immorality of apolitical space capitalism in approximately eight lines delivered with Lando Calrissian’s (Billy Dee Williams) panache, a special effect infinitely more powerful than anything “The Last Jedi” spent in millions of dollars, Del Toro’s mumbling and a half-hour of this over-long movie to get across. The whole thing is just a disgracefully bad bit of storytelling.

?

[Hazel-Ra]

On 12/14/2017 at 10:10 PM, Mournblade said:

3. Carrie Fisher: D+. She was ok at the beginning of the movie, but holy smokes did she look bored out of her skull by movie's end.

Not a real memorable ending for a film legend. 

 

 

That's because after Fisher's death they really should have invested in some re-shoots... it's not like it would hurt them financially. I remember sitting there is the theatre watching her freeze in space and thinking "She died a warrior...not bad" .... then THAT happened. Would it had really killed them to transfer her plot points to the Admiral H after some reshoots, and Have Admiral Akbar make the big sacrifice at the end? It probably would have been a more worthy end for him as well.

[DogofWar1]

Oh yeah, I completely forgot, they killed off Admiral Akbar in such an...ignoble fashion.

 

Down to 6.3.

 

RIP Admiral.  This movie was a trap.

[justice98]

12 hours ago, DogofWar1 said:

This is an important part of the problem here too.  You've seemingly got JJ Abrams' vision, and Rian Johnson's vision, and they went in two different directions in VII and VIII.  Now they've only got IX to tie everything up and make it make sense.  I suppose from that angle, refocusing on Ren by killing off a ton of other characters works well, we're not left with much to do than focus on Rey and Ren.  Unfortunately, it really closes off some narrative paths that could have been a lot of fun.

 

The difference in visions was striking.  I think that's really what got people's goat.  Like Rian Johnson came in and didnt want anything to do with the groundwork Abrams laid that audiences were looking forward to.  We basically got Luke training Rey and Johnson scrapped the rest.

 

Wouldnt shock me if Abrams felt he needed to salvage the story he thought they were telling when he came back for 9.

[Llevron]

Am I the only one who likes Rey much less as a character after this movie than before it? I mean, shes still hot and kind of a Jedi, but thats bout it for me. I still liked the movie, but a big draw for me was the mystery behind her. And they poo pooed the hell out of that. 

[RichmondRedskin88]

- My gf and I were both meh about the movie

 

- Ren drives us nuts. Grow a pair. He will never be evil. He had a shot at his mom and couldn’t take it. Anakin never held back. People don’t appreciate how badass he was.

 

-Luke’s death was weird.

 

- Finn a chance to finally man up and die like a hero than be a whiney dude who ditched the First Order and cried about it ever since. Instead he’s saved.... Seriously....

 

 

[TradeTheBeal!]

I was 50/50 on seeing this in the theater, but after reading all the fanboi butt hurt I'm kinda stoked.

 

Prolly catch it later this week.

[Momma There Goes That Man]

51 minutes ago, Llevron said:

Am I the only one who likes Rey much less as a character after this movie than before it? I mean, shes still hot and kind of a Jedi, but thats bout it for me. I still liked the movie, but a big draw for me was the mystery behind her. And they poo pooed the hell out of that. 

 

No i like her more. We were able to go along on the exact same emotional ride she did. 

 

Like her, we wanted to believe she was special. That she had some purpose. That there was some reason why she was left alone all those years.

 

Like her we didn't want to believe the truth. It turns out, she just wasn't loved and had terrible parents. It was heartbreaking for her and for the audience who had also invested so much in the reasons behind her. But what she and the audience both end up realizing is that she is special because of herself alone, not her parents or blood etc. And that makes her a stronger and better character to me. 

[Momma There Goes That Man]

53 minutes ago, RichmondRedskin88 said:

- Finn a chance to finally man up and die like a hero than be a whiney dude who ditched the First Order and cried about it ever since. Instead he’s saved.... Seriously....

 

I agree they haven't taken his character anywhere super relevant so far but he's a great actor and has a lot of charisma so it's always enjoyable no matter what he does. Also, with Rey being the hero, Finn has kind of assumed the traditional female role in these type of movies which is "find stuff to do until the hero saves the day" which i am also good with and enjoy the reversal. It's why it was so great in TFA when he constantly treated Rey like the damsel in distress delicate woman that he needed to check on and make sure she was ok and she continually flipped it back on him. 

 

I think he will have a bigger role to play in the resistance. TFA he was coming to terms with the evils of the First Order and how to cope with that. Mostly, he wanted to save himself and Rey. This movie, his eyes were opened to the way the world works and the areas of grey that exist. I think in this movie, he became part of the rebellion, hence the "rebel scum" line as well. He will have a larger role among the rebellion moving forward. 

[Pick6]

The best part of this movie was hyper spacing a whole ship through a dreadnought. The visuals on that scene were amazing. Got the biggest reaction out of the theater I was in.

[Llevron]

8 minutes ago, Momma There Goes That Man said:

 

No i like her more. We were able to go along on the exact same emotional ride she did. 

 

Like her, we wanted to believe she was special. That she had some purpose. That there was some reason why she was left alone all those years.

 

Like her we didn't want to believe the truth. It turns out, she just wasn't loved and had terrible parents. It was heartbreaking for her and for the audience who had also invested so much in the reasons behind her. But what she and the audience both end up realizing is that she is special because of herself alone, not her parents or blood etc. And that makes her a stronger and better character to me. 

 

Thats a cool perspective. I can dig that. I still feel I would have liked it better otherwise. But I can dig that. 

[NoCalMike]

Question: How exactly does Kylo Ren know who Rey's parents were?  Is it even confirmed that he is telling the truth?

[Momma There Goes That Man]

1 hour ago, RichmondRedskin88 said:

Ren drives us nuts. Grow a pair. He will never be evil. He had a shot at his mom and couldn’t take it. Anakin never held back. People don’t appreciate how badass he was.

 

I don't understand why he has to be pure evil to be a good villain? Writing interesting and complex characters equates to "grow a pair" 

 

Kylo has broken so much Star Wars tradition and expectation. He is an apprentice that destroyed his master not for good motivations but to literally usurp power and take over. He's something we have never seen before in this universe of movies. 

[Llevron]

Just now, NoCalMike said:

Question: How exactly does Kylo Ren know who Rey's parents were?  Is it even confirmed that he is telling the truth?

 

Well thats my hope lol. He could have easily been lying in an attempt to manipulate her into joining him. 

[Momma There Goes That Man]

8 minutes ago, NoCalMike said:

Question: How exactly does Kylo Ren know who Rey's parents were?  Is it even confirmed that he is telling the truth?

 

No, he is the unreliable narrator in that moment. Preying on her fears and insecurities to manipulate her. 

 

Luke even tells her "the dark side gives you something you want" which is the equivalent of Kylo telling her he saw her parents and then confirming it. 

 

So they have some leeway if they wanted to go back on it though I don't think it enhances the story or one of the messages they were sending in this movie regarding the resistance of "anyone can be special and make a difference"

 

Let's be honest. Jedi and Sith powers are purposely ambiguous. We know they aren't straight mind reading at all times unless the other person is aware of it. Think Kylo/Poe in TFA. It's not like Snoke or Kylo is legit just always reading everyone's minds. That's why Snoke not seeing Kylo's betrayal doesn't bother me. It's always been like senses to me, you can sense their energy and if the light or dark are both in your heart and mind. That'w why Snoke missed Kylo's turn. Kylo was all dark at that point but Snoke never envisioned he would betray him in that moment. He's not reading his mind. 

 

But you can see glimpses of their past and their future (potential outcomes in their future i would say) so perhaps that is what Kylo saw. Or he just made it all up. 

[Momma There Goes That Man]

1 hour ago, justice98 said:

The difference in visions was striking.  I think that's really what got people's goat.  Like Rian Johnson came in and didnt want anything to do with the groundwork Abrams laid that audiences were looking forward to.  We basically got Luke training Rey and Johnson scrapped the rest.

 

Aside from Snoke, what else was there? Part of what i liked about the movie was that it took all our expectations and tossed them away. That honestly was what I hated about it the first time i watched it. But without those expectations, the move flows extremely well on subsequent viewings and fits very well into the SW universe, setting up the future that can be completely different from anything we've seen before. 

 

I agree, I would have loved more Snoke backstory but it turns out he wasn't important. The mystery is still there and can be expanded upon but he is more of a vehicle to drive Kylo's story. Striking down his master in his quest for power and control. 

[Springfield]

1 hour ago, TryTheBeal! said:

I was 50/50 on seeing this in the theater, but after reading all the fanboi butt hurt I'm kinda stoked.

 

Prolly catch it later this week.

 

Its average.  That’s what it is.

[RichmondRedskin88]

39 minutes ago, Momma There Goes That Man said:

 

I don't understand why he has to be pure evil to be a good villain? Writing interesting and complex characters equates to "grow a pair" 

 

Kylo has broken so much Star Wars tradition and expectation. He is an apprentice that destroyed his master not for good motivations but to literally usurp power and take over. He's something we have never seen before in this universe of movies. 

 

 

I’m wanting to take over but if I face someone close to me I hesitant?  Luke he charged at but part of that was Luke's previous actions.  Anakin could have very well killed the chancellor and ruled alone if he didn’t get chopped up.  I don’t know that I’d even label Ren a Sith currently. He’s more focused on anger than his powers. The other siths channeled it and used it. 

[Momma There Goes That Man]

39 minutes ago, RichmondRedskin88 said:

 

 

I’m wanting to take over but if I face someone close to me I hesitant?  Luke he charged at but part of that was Luke's previous actions.  Anakin could have very well killed the chancellor and ruled alone if he didn’t get chopped up.  I don’t know that I’d even label Ren a Sith currently. He’s more focused on anger than his powers. The other siths channeled it and used it. 

 

It’s not someone close to him, it was his mother, the last remnant of who he used to be. He killed his father in an instant. 

 

You think kylo is soft but not Anakin for all his Padme and mom fears and whining around going to the dark side specifically cuz he lost them? 

 

Im not really sure there is much distinction there. 

 

Kylo would be much less interesting if he just effortlessly and emotionlessly killed Leia or anyone else.  

[RichmondRedskin88]

4 minutes ago, Momma There Goes That Man said:

 

It’s not someone close to him, it was his mother, the last remnant of who he used to be. He killed his father in an instant. 

 

You think kylo is soft but not Anakin for all his Padme and mom fears and whining around going to the dark side specifically cuz he lost them? 

 

Im not really sure there is much distinction there. 

 

Kylo would be much less interesting if he just effortlessly and emotionlessly killed Leia or anyone else.  

 

He hesitanted with Han. He hesitanted here. He doesn’t have a killer instinct that Siths generally do. Yeah he killed Snoke but perhaps that was fear of being killed himself? Anakin never questioned his ability and was very confident in his powers. Ren feels like he’s always trying to convince himself. 

[Momma There Goes That Man]

11 minutes ago, RichmondRedskin88 said:

 

He hesitanted with Han. He hesitanted here. He doesn’t have a killer instinct that Siths generally do. Yeah he killed Snoke but perhaps that was fear of being killed himself? Anakin never questioned his ability and was very confident in his powers. Ren feels like he’s always trying to convince himself. 

 

I agree there. I get the feeling he has a huge chip on his shoulder. I just like that about him. 

 

Also, look where Anakins confidence in his ability got him aka the high ground. So was that better? 

 

I Bet Ren keeps both his legs