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The Bruce Allen/GM Thread

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Let's have this discussion in November when start to see how the 2019 Skins are doing.  It will be a couple of years too early to earnestly assess the 2019 draft but at least we will have the early returns as of today all we have is ESPN pundit spittle.  

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46 minutes ago, Wildbunny said:

As long as players won't have put on game tape on the field wearing Redskins uni, I'm not gonna call this draft good...

 

I understand where you're coming from but respectfully disagree.  Judging the strategy, the type of players taken...it's been a good draft, for sure.  You can only grade it until this point.  And at this point, it looks good.

 

 

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

 

I understand where you're coming from but respectfully disagree.  Judging the strategy, the type of players taken...it's been a good draft, for sure.  You can only grade it until this point.  And at this point, it looks good.

Well I strongly disagree on picking a QB in the first so...

😄

Edited by Wildbunny
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11 minutes ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

 

I understand where you're coming from but respectfully disagree.  Judging the strategy, the type of players taken...it's been a good draft, for sure.  You can only grade it until this point.  And at this point, it looks good.

 

I agree. We got good value for our draft slots, made good decisions, didn't really reach (except for maybe Martin, but at the 5th round, it's not a big deal). Our 6th and 7th round selections have the potential to turn into something. Assessments of our 6th and 7th round picks:

 

Washington Redskins: Kevin Harmon, WR, N.C. State A+ Grade 
The Redskins have a huge need at receiver, so picking Kelvin Harmon makes sense - in the second round! Harmon was a second-round prospect, and I had him mocked No. 61 overall. He's not an explosive player, but he's a big, productive receiver who has the potential to become a solid No. 2 possession receiver in the NFL. Harmon is an absolute steal here. 

Read more: http://walterfootball.com/nfldraftgrades6.php#ixzz5mPAsFn4U

Read more at http://walterfootball.com/nfldraftgrades6.php#JXeMGfWBvsyrWRUC.99

 

Washington Redskins: Jimmy Moreland, CB, James Madison A Grade 
This is another steal in the seventh round, as I thought Jimmy Moreland would be chosen very early on Day 3. Moreland is shorter than 5-10, but projects as a tough slot receiver with his terrific ball skills. I love the value Washington is getting with Moreland at this juncture. 

Read more: http://walterfootball.com/nfldraftgrades7.php#ixzz5mPAZOcI4

Read more at http://walterfootball.com/nfldraftgrades7.php#8iE5oKyDVcad1sPf.99

 

Washington Redskins: Jordan Brailford, DE/OLB, Oklahoma State A Grade 
I mocked Jordan Brailford in the fourth round, but he slipped to the very end of the draft because of injury concerns. Brailford has a very lengthy injury history, so I can't say I'm surprised he fell so far. However, Brailford was productive in 2018 and tested very well at the combine, so there's definitely some good upside. This is the sort of pick teams should make in the seventh round. 

Read more: http://walterfootball.com/nfldraftgrades7.php#ixzz5mPAhsA6z

Read more at http://walterfootball.com/nfldraftgrades7.php#8iE5oKyDVcad1sPf.99

 

This is a site that loves bashing the Redskins--but they've been really complimentary of our drafts the last couple of years.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Wildbunny said:

Not at all, it's part of the trick.

But we were excited about guys like Hankerson, Helu, Royster, Dennis Morris...

 

Remember the drafting of Baccarri Rambo, steal of the year! Or Lache Seastrunk...

 

Well you got my point of view. You're too smart for that Cali :)

 

We were also excited about Allen, Payne, Scherff, Reed, Thompson, Schmorky until he went on IR lol....

 

In reality, we're just excited about the potential right now, since that's all they have shown us. And let's face it, the fans and media in February viewed the Skins' potential as a dumpster fire. While the occasional fan will phrase their excitement as if stating a proven fact, I think it's safe to say that pretty much all of us understand that it still needs to translate onto the field.

 

But I do feel the FO deserves praise for level of potential they drafted, the value of a lot of their picks (level of talent vs where they were drafted), not panicking and making an unnecessary move (ie: not trading up to get Haskins), reading the draft boards well and knowing when to trade up and when to sit pat (ie: trading up to get Sweat--Raiders were gonna take him if we didn't, and trading down into the 4th to gain an extra pick believing they wouldn't miss out on anyone they felt was absolutely necessary)...you see teams make these mistakes almost every year, but the Skins have not really made those mistakes over the last several drafts.  

Edited by Califan007

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Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, Califan007 said:

Honestly, though...

 

- Skins win the McCloughan grievance

- Lafemina--speculated that maybe his hiring might be a sign that Bruce could soon be out--goes to Snyder with complaints from corporate ticket holders upset at putting in a waiver claim on Foster. Lafemina is soon out as Head of Business Ops.

- All charges are then dropped on Foster

- Foster is then told he won't be suspended and can start immediately for the Redskins

- Allen then signs Landon Collins

- Then the Skins draft Haskins without budging

- Then they trade up and grab Sweat, putting the NFC East on notice that the Skins' defense will seriously **** you up this year

- Then the Skins' FO and scouts have what, for all intents and purposes, could be the Redskins' best draft of the decade

- Then Skins fans all over twitter are saying they can't wait for training camp now, and that they are immediately gonna buy a Mclaurin jersey after seeing his video

 

 

 

I love this draft more than any they've had.  I had three players in that mix who I spent a lot of time research and pushing.  Yet, I obviously can be completely wrong.   i've learned while its fun to win the perception game and you see me post on that draft thread any ounce of praise I can find for what they did -- partly for selfish egotistical reasons since hey I like the picks so everyone else should, too.  :ols:  But in the end, we don't know.  Maybe Kelvin Harmon for example is the guy I touted for a number of reasons or maybe he is who his critics say he is.  We won't know until it all goes down.

 

It's all spin though until the bullets start flying.    Bruce or any FO guy isn't judged based on how his judgment meshes with the fans or the media.    Can Bruce or Dan outwit football wise some members on this board or JP Finlay or Mel Kiper?  Maybe.   But can they compete with the John Dorsey, Will McClay, Howie Roseman executives who are considered at the top of the game?   And I do find some irony that the place where the Redskins perception wise and arguably also in reality shine which is college scouting is also supposedly the area that Bruce backs off and doesn't interfere with.   So the praise is for things that in all likelihood Bruce had nothing to do with.  

 

Case in point.  Bruce crowed in a JP Finlay interview years back that well they let D Jax and Garcon go but they replaced them with 2 guys with similar total production and at a cheaper price with adding Quick and Pryor.  And to me it made sense.  Bravo Bruce.  Pryor put up big numbers in Cleveland.  I was jazzed to see that play out. But Bruce ended up wrong. 

 

The RG3 trade was praised to high heaven.  Heck ditto the McNabb trade.  Some liked the Alex Smith trade.  But in all of this some also didn't like it.  But when you fall for a prospect or a narrative  we often tend to blow off the negativity. 

 

I personally like a lot of things you mentioned.  But I know some who don't.  Some NFL pundits don't like the Collins signings, Scot didn't like it, Schrager on NFL AM said FO people he talked to were shaking their heads about that signing.   On Foster some didn't think he played well his last year in SF and is an injury waiting to happen. 

 

My point you have some competing narratives on most moves.  And it doesn't matter if we think they did good.  It's good to feel good in the off season so there is a value to that.  And I don't mean that with any sarcasm -- I enjoy off season hype and good will but its all speculation until it plays out.  

 

that why to me for Dan and Bruce but especially Dan 2 things have to happen to gain the good will of most fans (or at least that's my perception based on what i've observed)

 

A.  Finally get the QB position right.  They've been epically bad at figuring out the most important position in sports.  They've built good rosters before.    But they have been epically bad at dealing with the Qb position.  I don't care how many excuses they have for it.  The sample size is huge now.  

 

I am actually amenable to one defense I see from some of the few Dan defenders I see from time to time which is hey if he finally figures out QB then watch out!  Yeah I agree Dan finally getting a franchise QB after all the mishaps I think would be a major game changer for him and the franchise.  I got an open mind about Haskins but I am not just going to count on him as being the solution until I see it play out.  But if this dude is great or even good, I think that would be a game changer. 

 

B.  Win baby. :ols:  IMO the sample size is too big to just take a leap of faith about this organization.  If I recall during Dan's era it has the 4th worst record in the NFL or something like that.  Yeah Dan with Vinny and now with Bruce they do have their moments especially in the off season.  Some say that more than anything has been Dan's calling card.  

 

 Really every off season I'll have moments where I pump my fist about some of their moves.  But on the aggregate it just hasn't added up.  I've said here for years, I'll write a poem of praise for Bruce for those who would be entertained by it if they have an 11-5 season or whatever.  But I am not grading him or Dan on a curve.  The ifs and butts were candy and nuts just doesn't do it for me.  If this was Dan's 2nd year at the helm I'd feel different but not after almost 20 years.

 

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

(stuff lol)

 

 

I don't really disagree with anything you said, but the point of my earlier post was that for about the last 6 months, Bruce's moves that were first heavily criticized have turned out to be correct ones to make, or his new ones are being viewed as good, competent decisions. For a guy who is constantly called the "Prince of Darkness", "Brucifer" or "The Worst GM in the NFL," you'd have to think he'd feel like strutting right now lol...

Edited by Califan007
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I know I joke on the Giants draft failures, but this one is no joke and really drives home how bad this draft could end up being for them...

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, Califan007 said:

 

I don't really disagree with anything you said, but the point of my earlier post was that for about the last 6 months, Bruce's moves that were first heavily criticized have turned out to be correct ones to make, or his new ones are being viewed as good, competent decisions. For a guy who is constantly called the "Prince of Darkness", "Brucifer" or "The Worst GM in the NFL," you'd have to think he'd feel like strutting right now lol...

 

According to some he's arrogant and smug just by default so yeah if your point isn't about celebrating his moves but just saying he is celebrating them -- I agree.  But according to some that's just a normal day for Bruce.  😀

 

As you know I've slammed Bruce and Dan as much as anyone.  But man nothing would give me more pleasure than to see them vindicated.  I spend too much money every year to go to 2-3 games flying all around the country.  I got to work really hard to keep my kids Redskins fans considering I live in South Florida where basically fans are more or less free agents to like any team.  One of my closest friends as an example is a Giants fan but his kid became a Patriots fan because the kid naturally wanted to back a winner. 

 

So with some of the people i've battled with on this thread about this FO -- I am really truly rooting hard for them to be right and for me to be wrong.   If they finally got it cooking and went 11-5 and become one of NFL's perennial good teams like the Steelers, Ravens, etc -- nothing sports wise would give me more pleasure.

 

And I am always intrigued with a young QB.  I wasn't in love with Haskins.  But digesting it some heck a young QB always brings hope.  I am among the people who think you are never good to win consistently in this league unless you have a good to great QB.  And if you have a great QB, you are pretty much guaranteed to be in the playoffs almost every year.

 

I am not interested in debating this point about Haskins because there is no way for us to know the truth.   The impression I get listening to multiple narratives and doing my best to puzzle it together is that Haskins was Dan-Bruce-Doug guy and they egged Jay on some to get him on board.  Jay though is genuinely excited though to see what he can do with the dude's talent.  It should be intriguing to see how it plays out.  The funny thing is I think for Jay - Haskins actually might give him a lifeline for more job security and an excuse not to make the playoffs while keeping his job.  Lets say for example they start slow but bring in Haskins towards the end of the season and they look decently where you think he will just get better under Jay's tutelage -- if so you got a good rationale to keep him.  

 

And since I am not one of the Jay haters here, that narrative doesn't bother me.  I don't care how they do it.  I want a franchise QB more than anything.   I've said on this thread to death --there is one thing that I think can even override dysfunction or mediocrity or whatever is holding any team back -- and only one thing:  a franchise QB. 😀

Edited by Skinsinparadise

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Posted (edited)
23 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

According to some he's arrogant and smug just by default so yeah if your point isn't about celebrating his moves but just saying he is celebrating them -- I agree.  But according to some that's just a normal day for Bruce.  😀

 

As you know I've slammed Bruce and Dan as much as anyone.  But man nothing would give me more pleasure than to see them vindicated.  I spend too much money every year to go to give or take 2-3 games flying all around the country.  I got to work really hard to keep my kids Redskins fans considering I live in South Florida where basically fans are more or less free agents to like any team.  One of my closest friends as an example is a Giants fan but his kids became Redskins fans

 

So with some of the people i've battled with on this thread about this FO -- I am really truly rooting hard for them to be right and for me to be wrong.   If they finally got it cooking and went 11-5 and become one of NFL's perennial good teams like the Steelers, Ravens, etc -- nothing sports wise would give me more pleasure.

 

And I am always intrigued with a young QB.  I wasn't in love with Haskins.  But digesting it some heck a young QB always brings hope.  I am among the people who think you are never good to win consistently in this league unless you have a good to great QB.  And if you have a great QB, you are pretty much guaranteed to be in the playoffs almost every year.

 

I am not interested in debating this point about Haskins because there is no way for us to know the truth.   The impression I get listening to multiple narratives and doing my best to puzzle it together is that Haskins was Dan-Bruce-Doug guy and they egged Jay on some to get him on board.  Jay though is genuinely excited though to see what he can do with the dude's talent.  It should be intriguing to see how it plays out.  The funny thing is I think for Jay - Haskins actually might give him a lifeline for more job security and an excuse not to make the playoffs while keeping his job.  Lets say for example they start slow but bring in Haskins towards the end of the season and they look decently where you think he will just get better under Jay's tutelage -- if so you got a good rationale to keep him.  

 

And since I am not one of the Jay haters here, that narrative doesn't bother me.  I don't care how they do it.  I want a franchise QB more than anything.   I've said on this thread to death --there is one thing that I think can even override dysfunction or mediocrity or whatever is holding any team back -- and only one thing:  a franchise QB. 😀

 

Yeah, I wasn't saying or suggesting a Bruce celebration was warranted lol...just that what's lost in all the rhetoric is that he's actually been in something of a zone for the last half year, at least for him. And I think I may have told you this before but I can relate to making (and keeping) your kids Skins fans lol...my daughter is a Skins fan but is now also a Bengals fan because of living in Cincinnati for awhile...dammit lol...

 

I know that Sheehan believes that Dan and Bruce (and possibly Doug) wanted Haskins and that Alex, Jay and I'm guessing others wanted Jones or Lock or defense with the #15 pick, but I was under the impression that it was more or less speculation on his part and not info he gained from a source. After your tweet about Doug and Bruce trusting Kyle Smith and that he set the board and how the draft would be approached, it sounds to me more like Kyle had more power over things than the Paulsen and Russini tweet reports were presenting, and that nobody "took over the 1st round" and there were not "warring factions" or "chaos" or stuff like that there going on lol...If so, then if--IF--this draft class really does mark a turn-around point in the franchise's fortunes down the road, Bruce's biggest contribution to it would be in trusting Kyle (and hopefully promoting him to some sort of GM position even if it's not called "GM") moreso than any moves he personally decided to make. That's one reason I'm not wild about how people constantly claim Bruce and Dan are doing this and that and overriding people and whatever, except for maybe long after the fact. I want them to get credit for trusting and relying on people better qualified than they are....I don't want them getting credit for other people's decision making.

 

Although I believe if things DO go extremely well we will have no shortage of sourced stories citing proper credit to the correct people if for no other reason than to make sure Bruce and Dan aren't seen as competent lol...

Edited by Califan007
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4 hours ago, CjSuAvE22 said:

Why exactly are we hailing bruce all of a sudden....just look at his record since he got here dont give him excuses either if we are terrible this year he needs to go..

 

Shanahan owns the team's record when Shanahan ran all aspects of the team.   So Bruce took over in 2014.   I'm willing to forgive a rookie coach in a transition year and throw out that 4-12.   So we've basically been 31-32-1 since he has effectively run the organization.    I think the Ernie Grunfeld comparison is somewhat apt.   Moves tend to make sense, but it never totally comes together.   But we've not been a disaster with Bruce running things and we seem to have a very clear organizational strategy we are following that seems to be building.   Our coaching, specifically defensive coaching, has been the weakest part of this team since Bruce took over, and, sadly, he can't fix that as that's under Gruden's contractual control.   Bruce has made mistakes and he's done some good things.   He has even said the team needs to win more than it has so he realizes his 31-32-1 leadership isn't good enough, but it's not exactly the dismal, laughing stock some of you can't get yourselves away from, is it?

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14 minutes ago, Califan007 said:

 

Yeah, I wasn't saying or suggesting a Bruce celebration was warranted lol...just that what's lost in all the rhetoric is that he's actually been in something of a zone for the last half year, at least for him. And I think I may have told you this before but I can relate to making (and keeping) your kids Skins fans lol...my daughter is a Skins fan but is now also a Bengals fan because of living in Cincinnati for awhile...dammit lol...

 

I know that Sheehan believes that Dan and Bruce (and possibly Doug) wanted Haskins and that Alex, Jay and I'm guessing others wanted Jones or Lock or defense with the #15 pick, but I was under the impression that it was more or less speculation on his part and not info he gained from a source. After your tweet about Doug and Bruce trusting Kyle Smith and that he set the board and how the draft would be approached, it sounds to me more like Kyle had more power over things than the Paulsen and Russini tweet reports were presenting, and that nobody "took over the 1st round" and there were not "warring factions" or "chaos" or stuff like that there going on lol...If so, then if--IF--this draft class really does mark a turn-around point in the franchise's fortunes down the road, Bruce's biggest contribution to it would be in trusting Kyle (and hopefully promoting him to some sort of GM position even if it's not called "GM") moreso than any moves he personally decided to make. That's one reason I'm not wild about how people constantly claim Bruce and Dan are doing this and that and overriding people and whatever, except for maybe long after the fact. I want them to get credit for trusting and relying on people better qualified than they are....I don't want them getting credit for other people's decision making.

 

Although I believe if things DO go extremely well we will have no shortage of sourced stories citing proper credit to the correct people if for no other reason than to make sure Bruce and Dan aren't seen as competent lol...

 

Kyle set our board.   Bruce had ZERO to do with it.   ZERO.   Bruce's role was to honor the board and fight for the integrity of it when there was a challenge as there ALWAYS is in a draft room when someone else loves a guy more.   Where there is a disagreement Bruce makes the ultimate decision.   Not even Snyder, who used to have that role, as Cooke did, where he'd famously side with Beathard or Gibbs with a caustic, "You'd better be right."   Gibbs told that story with a cackle a lot.   Gibbs was often right, so it worked out :).   Gibbs won in the era you could win with different, non-elite QBs.   That's not really where we are now.

A team can flash without a top level QB with something else great -- like the Ravens -- or a QB who's playing out of his head suddenly -- like the Eagles -- but consistent winning in the NFL is the domain of teams with Top 10 QBs.   Even they will have a fall off, though usually be competitive and average.   Until the Redskins get it right and have a Top 10 QB we won't consistently win.   No one else will either.

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2 minutes ago, Art said:

 

Kyle set our board.   Bruce had ZERO to do with it.   ZERO.   Bruce's role was to honor the board and fight for the integrity of it when there was a challenge as there ALWAYS is in a draft room when someone else loves a guy more.   Where there is a disagreement Bruce makes the ultimate decision.   Not even Snyder, who used to have that role, as Cooke did, where he'd famously side with Beathard or Gibbs with a caustic, "You'd better be right."   Gibbs told that story with a cackle a lot.   Gibbs was often right, so it worked out :).   Gibbs won in the era you could win with different, non-elite QBs.   That's not really where we are now.

A team can flash without a top level QB with something else great -- like the Ravens -- or a QB who's playing out of his head suddenly -- like the Eagles -- but consistent winning in the NFL is the domain of teams with Top 10 QBs.   Even they will have a fall off, though usually be competitive and average.   Until the Redskins get it right and have a Top 10 QB we won't consistently win.   No one else will either.

 

Gawd, it seems like that part in bold is always forgotten when the challenge is in the Skins' draft room lol...it's like nails on a ****ing chalkboard to me.

 

I remember Russini tweeting out that "Dan Snyder has arrived at Redskins Park" the morning of the draft, insinuating that he's there to take over the draft (or at least the 1st round of it)...it was such an ominous tweet I could practically hear the Darth Vader/Death Star theme playing in the background lol...I'm not sure if she tweeted out the arrival of anyone else or if other beat writers tweeted out if or when the owners of the teams they're covering arrived, but it didn't feel like SOP.

 

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Califan007 said:

 

I know that Sheehan believes that Dan and Bruce (and possibly Doug) wanted Haskins and that Alex, Jay and I'm guessing others wanted Jones or Lock or defense with the #15 pick, but I was under the impression that it was more or less speculation on his part and not info he gained from a source. After your tweet about Doug and Bruce trusting Kyle Smith and that he set the board and how the draft would be approached, it sounds to me more like Kyle had more power over things than the Paulsen and Russini tweet reports were presenting, and that nobody "took over the 1st round" and there were not "warring factions" or "chaos" or stuff like that there going on lol...If so, then if--IF--this draft class really does mark a turn-around point in the franchise's fortunes down the road, Bruce's biggest contribution to it would be in trusting Kyle (and hopefully promoting him to some sort of GM position even if it's not called "GM") moreso than any moves he personally decided to make.

 

It's much more than Sheehan but like I said there is no way to know so it's a futile discussion.  Like I said and have been saying for a long time, I don't get the sense Bruce interferes at all with the college scouting aside from making tie breaker votes.  Doug's explained the process before.   From what some reported, Bruce's drill is trades and gives his input in FA as for who to keep and who not to keep.  The more i think about it my beef really isn't with Bruce directly.  Like I've said, I don't blame him for wanting to keep power. 

 

Like Cooley said once in Bruce's defense, would we want to voluntarily give up power and just hand it to someone else?  To me the structure is on Dan.   Again i don't think their results are poor. It's a so so operation IMO.  They are good to very good IMO with college scouting and mediocre to poor at pro scouting.  I've elaborated on both points and don't feel like doing it here again 

 

I am sticking to the same criticism. The idea of what Bruce should or shouldn't get credit for this or that just gives me a headache. :ols:   I get the dude at least in Dan's mind is instrumental in getting the stadium.   And it sounds like Bruce is Dan's proxy and social crutch at the owners meetings.    So I am not doubting his value to Dan.  But I want the top personnel guy with the final call to actually be a real top flight personnel guy.   That dude would be Kyle Smith.    

 

And I keep seeing two competing narratives.

 

A.  They might lose Kyle to a team that gives him the GM title

B.  They are grooming Kyle to take over after Bruce rides off into the sunset after the stadium.  

 

If its B, obviously i'd be a happy camper.   "A" would drive me nuts. :ols:

 

1 hour ago, Califan007 said:

 

And I think I may have told you this before but I can relate to making (and keeping) your kids Skins fans lol...my daughter is a Skins fan but is now also a Bengals fan because of living in Cincinnati for awhile...dammit lol...

 

Lol, it's not easy.  This team is missing what I think are the two ingredients to indoctrinate kids.  1.  Winning.  You can't really explain context to why they aren't winning to them.  :ols:

2.  Lack of star power.

 

The Gibbs era would be an easier sell because they had some stars with marketability like:  Portis, Moss and Cooley.  This Redskins group I am finding is a harder sell.  That's why I am attuned to stuff like Alex Smith's jersey being a dud seller among jerseys nationally last year.  I noticed Alex didn't move the needle.  I battle my wife who is a Giants fan.  The Giants aren't winning but they got the star power.  They get a lot of talk and buzz because of Barkley and Beckham.  Part of the reason why I loved the Giants trading away Beckham was this reason.  And the fact that the Giants drafted who I think is the most boring personality in the history of Qbs (which I've documented to death on the draft thread for months) is delicious irony for me.   I pumped my fists for joy in front of my wife when the Giants took Jones.  :ols:

 

The star power stuff means nothing to me personally.  But when people like JP Finlay, Sheehan, and Rouhier say they don't see kids around the DMV wearing Redskins jerseys around like they used to and see a lot of kids wearing other teams jerseys -- it doesn't shock me.

 

That's why in a sense I totally get the Haskins pick.  You got to sell some hope.  Some star power.  I just went on ebay and bought for my kid a $13 shirt of Haskins for the Heisman :ols:    I got some hope to peddle so I'll peddle it. 

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I love this draft more than any they've had.  I had three players in that mix who I spent a lot of time research and pushing.  Yet, I obviously can be completely wrong.   i've learned while its fun to win the perception game and you see me post on that draft thread any ounce of praise I can find for what they did -- partly for selfish egotistical reasons since hey I like the picks so everyone else should, too.  :ols:  But in the end, we don't know.  Maybe Kelvin Harmon for example is the guy I touted for a number of reasons or maybe he is who his critics say he is.  We won't know until it all goes down.

 

It's all spin though until the bullets start flying.    Bruce or any FO guy isn't judged based on how his judgment meshes with the fans or the media.    Can Bruce or Dan outwit football wise some members on this board or JP Finlay or Mel Kiper?  Maybe.   But can they compete with the John Dorsey, Will McClay, Howie Roseman executives who are considered at the top of the game?   And I do find some irony that the place where the Redskins perception wise and arguably also in reality shine which is college scouting is also supposedly the area that Bruce backs off and doesn't interfere with.   So the praise is for things that in all likelihood Bruce had nothing to do with.  

 

Case in point.  Bruce crowed in a JP Finlay interview years back that well they let D Jax and Garcon go but they replaced them with 2 guys with similar total production and at a cheaper price with adding Quick and Pryor.  And to me it made sense.  Bravo Bruce.  Pryor put up big numbers in Cleveland.  I was jazzed to see that play out. But Bruce ended up wrong. 

 

The RG3 trade was praised to high heaven.  Heck ditto the McNabb trade.  Some liked the Alex Smith trade.  But in all of this some also didn't like it.  But when you fall for a prospect or a narrative  we often tend to blow off the negativity. 

 

I personally like a lot of things you mentioned.  But I know some who don't.  Some NFL pundits don't like the Collins signings, Scot didn't like it, Schrager on NFL AM said FO people he talked to where shaking their heads about that signing.   On Foster some didn't think he played well his last year in SF and is an injury waiting to happen. 

 

My point you have some competing narratives on most moves.  And it doesn't matter if we think they did good.  It's good to feel good in the off season so there is a value to that.  And I don't mean that with any sarcasm -- I enjoy off season hype and good will but its all speculation until it plays out.  

 

that why to me for Dan and Bruce but especially Dan 2 things have to happen to gain the good will of most fans (or at least that's my perception based on what i've observed)

 

A.  Finally get the QB position right.  They've been epically bad at figuring out the most important position in sports.  They've built good rosters before.    But they have been epically bad at dealing with the Qb position.  I don't care how many excuses they have for it.  The sample size is huge now.  

 

I am actually amenable to one defense I see from some of the few Dan defenders I see from time to time which is hey if he finally figures out QB then watch out!  Yeah I agree Dan finally getting a franchise QB after all the mishaps I think would be a major game changer for him and the franchise.  I got an open mind about Haskins but I am not just going to count on him as being the solution until I see it play out.  But if this dude is great or even good, I think that would be a game changer. 

 

B.  Win baby. :ols:  IMO the sample size is too big to just take a leap of faith about this organization.  If I recall during Dan's era it has the 4th worst record in the NFL or something like that.  Yeah Dan with Vinny and now with Bruce they do have their moments especially in the off season.  Some say that more than anything has been Dan's calling card.  

 

 Really every off season I'll have moments where I pump my fist about some of their moves.  But on the aggregate it just hasn't added up.  I've said here for years, I'll write a poem of praise for Bruce for those who would be entertained by it if they have an 11-5 season or whatever.  But I am not grading him or Dan on a curve.  The ifs and butts were candy and nuts just doesn't do it for me.  If this was Dan's 2rd year at the helm I'd feel different but not after almost 20 years.

 

 

I agree with much of what you said.  To me, their strategy for this draft starts with the assumption that the OL is fundamentally sound with the exception of needing some help at left guard, a secondary priority.  As I have stated ad nauseam, I don't believe that is the case.   But if you assume the OL is sound, I don't, but if you start with that assumption their picks make sense starting with a picking a new QB.

 

I haven't seen Haskins play much to so I don't have an opinion of him but there are a couple of positive items worth mentioning.   First, the Skins didn't move up and give away the future for him, they drafted in due course.   He's big and supposed to be a pocket passer, not an undersized runner who can also throw, he hails from the B1G where teams actually play defensive and in the cold as well.  Haskins may have played at Snyder's kid's school but this doesn't smell of Snyder desperation like in 2012, let's hope the kid thinks fast enough to run Gruden's offense and the Skins finally have a QB for a decade like normal teams.

 

Sweats will make the pass rush more potent.  I did see him play in college several times and he is highly disruptive.  I haven't seen the Ohio State receiver play but clearly, the Skins receiver corps lacks speed and this kid brings it plus he'll be a comfort for Haskins.  I don't have a complaint with any others either.  We won't know how these work out for a couple of years but by November we will have the first returns, my guess Sweat will be the early emerging star of the group but hopefully Haskins in subsequent seasons.

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5 minutes ago, Veryoldschool said:

 

I haven't seen Haskins play much to so I don't have an opinion of him but there are a couple of positive items worth mentioning.   First, the Skins didn't move up and give away the future for him, they drafted in due course.   He's big and supposed to be a pocket passer, not an undersized runner who can also throw, he hails from the B1G where teams actually play defensive and in the cold as well.  Haskins may have played at Snyder's kid's school but this doesn't smell of Snyder desperation like in 2012, let's hope the kid thinks fast enough to run Gruden's offense and the Skins finally have a QB for a decade like normal teams.

 

 

Agree with this.  Just made the same point on another thread.  Love that they didn't give up draft capital.    They gave up a ton of draft capital for RG3, a lot for Jason Campbell.  And gave up high picks for Brunell, McNabb and Alex.  Just staying at 15 is much better.  Got some doubts about Haskins but i am rooting for him.  And yes he's a pocket passer with a build that should knock on wood keep him healthy. 

 

7 minutes ago, Veryoldschool said:

 

Sweats will make the pass rush more potent.  I did see him play in college several times and he is highly disruptive.  I haven't seen the Ohio State receiver play but clearly, the Skins receiver corps lacks speed and this kid brings it plus he'll be a comfort for Haskins.  I don't have a complaint with any others either.  We won't know how these work out for a couple of years but by November we will have the first returns, my guess Sweat will be the early emerging star of the group but hopefully Haskins in subsequent seasons.

 

I like Sweat, McLaurin, Love, Harmon especially.  But i guess we have to see how it plays out.  I agree they could use more help on the O line.  but I do think an underrated weakness is they don't have a well rounded TE who can block.   A TE who is a threat in the passing game but can also help seal the edge in the run game among other things IMO is a missing ingredient.  Next year I guess. 

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Posted (edited)

How can anybody give Bruce credit when we trot out Jay Gruden and Greg Manusky on Sundays?  

 

Good lord, people.  Get a hold of yourselves. 🤣

Edited by AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy said:

How can anybody give Bruce credit when we trot out Jay Gruden and Greg Manusky on Sundays?  

 

Good lord, people.  Get a hold of yourselves. 🤣

 

IMO they got to elevate Kyle.  I am ok with Jay but I want the typical FO structure with a real football guy (personnel background) runs a team and they make the decision as to coaches.   I want whatever coach Kyle would want in this case. 

 

 

 

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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1 hour ago, Califan007 said:

 

Gawd, it seems like that part in bold is always forgotten when the challenge is in the Skins' draft room lol...it's like nails on a ****ing chalkboard to me.

 

I remember Russini tweeting out that "Dan Snyder has arrived at Redskins Park" the morning of the draft, insinuating that he's there to take over the draft (or at least the 1st round of it)...it was such an ominous tweet I could practically hear the Darth Vader/Death Star theme playing in the background lol...I'm not sure if she tweeted out the arrival of anyone else or if other beat writers tweeted out if or when the owners of the teams they're covering arrived, but it didn't feel like SOP.

 

 

 

Oh, I agree.   It's an absolute tragedy that anyone thinks people in a draft room disagreeing over a pick is in any way unique to the Redskins or a sign of any instability.   It happens, probably, on EVERY pick in EVERY draft that SOMEONE thinks another guy is better.   The draft isn't science.   It's subjective.   Someone will ALWAYS have a different view.   In our draft, for example, Kyle clearly weighed speed and "character/captaincy" a bit higher than maybe some other things.    Some other guys may have wanted something else.   Size.   Whatever.   It's NORMAL.   It's ALSO normal that someone in charge of the organization breaks the tie in a discussion where, commonly, coaches and scouts disagree.   It is OFTEN an uber powerful coach, like Gibbs was here, or Shanahan here, or Belichick now in New England.   It is often the personnel side, like in New York, Arizona and most places and Washington now.   It is even, sometimes, the owner who breaks a personnel vs coaching staff tie, as it was under Cooke and in some years under Snyder (not Marty, not Gibbs, not Shanahan and, surprisingly, not Gruden), as well as places like Buffalo, Houston, Indy, Atlanta.   

Disagreement is the absolute norm in every draft room on every team in every season for all time.   Only here do fans think it's weird or even news.

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4 hours ago, Riggo#44 said:

This is a site that loves bashing the Redskins--but they've been really complimentary of our drafts the last couple of years.

 

PFF is another usual basher. Their grades for the NFC East went like this: Giants-above average, Eagles-above average, Cowboys-below average, Redskins-Excellent

 

21 minutes ago, AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy said:

How can anybody give Bruce credit when we trot out Jay Gruden and Greg Manusky on Sundays?  

 

:lol: I was thinking the same. But short of the playoffs I have no fear of them here after this year.

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3 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

And I keep seeing two competing narratives.

 

A.  They might lose Kyle to a team that gives him the GM title

B.  They are grooming Kyle to take over after Bruce rides off into the sunset after the stadium.  

 

If its B, obviously i'd be a happy camper.   "A" would drive me nuts. :ols:

 

 

If Smith feels he is on a legitimate track to become more in the Skins' organization, he'll be more patient with them. He got promoted to Director of College Personnel so that's a start--you tend to be more loyal to the company that sees your worth and proves it through action. I'm not sure if this is the first time he's had control over both the draft board and the draft approach, or if that's part of the responsibilities of his position, though. I'm kinda hoping it's not, because then I can tell myself they are grooming him and he knows it lol...

 

 

 

Lol, it's not easy.  This team is missing what I think are the two ingredients to indoctrinate kids.  1.  Winning.  You can't really explain context to why they aren't winning to them.  

:ols:

2.  Lack of star power.

 

The star power stuff means nothing to me personally.  But when people like JP Finlay, Sheehan, and Rouhier say they don't see kids around the DMV wearing Redskins jerseys around like they used to and see a lot of kids wearing other teams jerseys -- it doesn't shock me.

 

That's why in a sense I totally get the Haskins pick.  You got to sell some hope.  Some star power.  I just went on ebay and bought for my kid a $13 shirt of Haskins for the Heisman :ols:    I got some hope to peddle so I'll peddle it.

 

This kinda points in the direction of what you just said above...I went to the grocery store this morning, and saw a guy wearing a Redskins' cap(!!) lol...I am nowhere near DC and haven't seen anyone wearing Skins gear in a long-ass time. After the initial shock and staring at his hat a little to long to make sure it was indeed a Redskins cap (ols.gif), my immediate thought was "Ok, the Skins draft may have been a little more successful than I thought."

 

I wonder if ES will have an influx of Ohio State students and fans wanting to follow the team now? Oh, and guess what....my daughter went to Ohio State lol 😎...here's hoping she'll dump her brief fling with the Bengals lol.

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2 hours ago, Art said:

Disagreement is the absolute norm in every draft room on every team in every season for all time.   Only here do fans think it's weird or even news.

 

Thank you!! IT'S NOT ****ING NEWS!!!....😡 🤬

 

Sorry, had to vent one last time lol...neither is the owner arriving at the team's facilities on draft day. And while fans thinking this is something specfic to the Skins and evidence of dysfunction does urk me, it's the media trying to make it into news that truly gets my blood boiling. They absolutely know better (or should). 

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These last 3 drafts could ultimately prove to be franchise altering. Yeah, I get it, we have to see it all play out before we are allowed to have a positivity parade. But if you can’t see the infusion of talent that’s been happening the last few years, that’s on you. There is no organization, I repeat not one, that has amassed the amount of talent through the draft we have since 2017. Or if there is, I’d be curious to see who.

 

And yeah, Bruce doesn’t pick the players in the draft. But he has overseen it. At the very least he deserves credit for letting guys beneath him do their thing. It’s been my point for a very long time, since I joined. I understand some of the other things that’s he’s overseen are less than stellar and I understand wanting the best of the best as the Face of your personnel department and franchise and thus would like him gone. But I will never understand how he’s ever mentioned in the same breath as a Vinny or how he’s become public enemy number one. My hope is that this draft will finally get some more people to realize what we are potentially building here and that there’s less viscerality directed toward the franchise and angst between the fans and players. 

 

Weve been begging for high impact. In the last 3 years we’ve added Jon Allen, Daron Payne, Landon Collins, Derrius Guice, Reuben Foster, Dwayne Haskins, Montez Sweat. 

 

Thats ignoring and leaving off a host of other good, young players. And of course I know there are question marks, as there should be. Foster has some injury/character concerns, Guice coming off an ACL, Haskins and Sweat complete unknowns. But that’s an insane level of potential that has been added to this roster. Credit where credit is due.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Califan007 said:

 

This kinda points in the direction of what you just said above...I went to the grocery store this morning, and saw a guy wearing a Redskins' cap(!!) lol...I am nowhere near DC and haven't seen anyone wearing Skins gear in a long-ass time. After the initial shock and staring at his hat a little to long to make sure it was indeed a Redskins cap (ols.gif), my immediate thought was "Ok, the Skins draft may have been a little more successful than I thought."

 

I wonder if ES will have an influx of Ohio State students and fans wanting to follow the team now? Oh, and guess what....my daughter went to Ohio State lol 😎...here's hoping she'll dump her brief fling with the Bengals lol.

 

Lol, yeah I've become an expert on the Redskins brand outside the market or at least it feels that way in my own mind.  😀  I live in place where you got fans from everywhere.   I have lived in DMV years back and have family in the area still and go back there once a year for a game and try to hit training camp every other year or so.  And then I usually see a road game or two.  

 

And yeah I got no doubt the brand is in danger some or at a minimum has dissipated some.  It was actually in good shape during the Gibbs 2 years from what I observed.  Sunk under Zorn.  Rejuvenated under Shanny than slagged a little then went crazy in 2012 with RG3.  Then has been slowly sliding.  Scot gave the brand a little jolt.    But for whatever reason the brand hit a low in 2018.

 

I do think Bruce hasn't been hot for the brand but i am tired of debating that.   My point is they had to do something I think to jolt up the brand regardless of what brought them to this point.  There is no doubt in my mind the Redskins aren't a sexy team to jump on the bandwagon if you are a young kid these days searching for a team to get into. The team for whatever reason doesn't get much national attention.   And like I've documented here, some national shows even make fun of how irrelevant they think this team is.   Heck even when we weren't great we'd often get 4-5 prime time games.  Now, not only don't we get Sunday Night games anymore, we can't even get a 4 pm game.  

 

If I were Dan, I'd feel compelled too to do something about it.   And while I don't know about Haskins personally as to whether he's the goods -- got no doubt that he brings some panache and attention and national talk.  And they desperately needed it.   They don't really have players like that.  Maybe Guice helps on the front.  And like I said this stuff never crossed my mind in all my years following the team.  Through their ups and downs the team felt relevant nationally as a marquee franchise. 

 

Again personally like anyone here, I will watch any game regardless of who they put out there.  But the average fan IMO aren't people like us.  They are paying a lot less attention.  And I don't think the casual fan is saying hey lets go see Case Keenum this Sunday!   I think Keim had a funny line last year saying look are you telling your spouse lets go to a Redskins game and watch Alex not throw an interception.     Now, I would. 😀  But I don't see myself as an average fan.  The average fan isn't spending 4 hours on a Sunday writing stuff on a Redskins fan board. :ols:

 

But seeing if Haskins is the goods -- that I think is much more intriguing for casual fans.  Dan is running a business and we can scoff that it doesn't matter but I'd presume it does matter to him to have shrinking stadiums, TV ratings and the NFL thinking the team isn't even worth giving one 4 pm game or a Sunday Night game. 

 

So I think the Haskins move was a home run move from that context.  And heck i feel like I get Dan's predicament some because like you I have to sell the sexiness of the team to my kids -- and that isn't easy.  So I'll milk Haskins.  :ols:   And I think he is an easy dude to market to them.  Guice was to a degree until he got hurt.    But otherwise IMO its a QB driven league and star driven league unless you are winning without those dynamics.    

 

And my point has nothing to do whether Dan drove the pick or not.  i am just saying I don't blame him if he wanted it to go down even if its purely incidental and he was the best player on the board.  They IMO needed to do something to shake up some interest.  I saw the Redskins are tied for first in most ticket sales spiked after the first day of the draft.

 

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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